Why We Need a Draft - A Marine's Lament

[Ironcat]

LINK (http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/20478293/site/newsweek/)

I just found this on the web and thought it really said a lot. Some of us may agree with it and some may disagree but it's one man's opinion that in my opinion, is worth hearing.

[Airbozo]

I personally believe that every American should HAVE to serve either in the military, or Americorps or a local version like California corps. No exception. None. Not even for religious reasons. It could be just in a reserve status or you would get more education credits (or something) for active duty. I would wager that we would not even be in Iraq if this was the case. More parents would be outraged that their sons and daughters MAY be killed.

IMNSHO

[Killdrath]

My time in uniform did a LOT to make me the (mostly) upstanding member of society that I am today.

My weekly D&D game at my house, 5 of 6 members are current or formet active duty. Boy is there a HUGE difference when you look at that sixth member.

Draft Away!

[tybrenis]

I thought it was an interesting article, and he definitely made valid points about Iraq being more of (don't hate me for this) a poor people's war. Unfortunately, thats just how it is these days. I support our troops 100%, but I support this war a wholehearted 0%. I hate the damned thing. However, its sad that a higher and higher percent of the military today is comprised of people who are in the military as a way out or a last resort rather than an honorable choice.
With that being said, however, I think a draft is a terrible idea - especially in a war like this. Here are my feelings on a draft: a draft should ONLY ever occur if the United States is in terrible danger and must go into defense mode. I am very much a pacifist and an anti-imperialist, so hear me out. I would only ever feel right fighting in a war if we were being invaded or severely threatened. Here's where that line starts to become finer and finer: we were led into this war by a filthy, lying, administration figureheaded by a hedge dumber than a sack of rocks. They told our nation that we WERE indeed threatened, and that there WERE weapons of mass destruction. The WMD's were absolutely a lie and whether or not they were a threat is still debateable.
Anyways, I suppose my point comes to the idea that we should only be led into war with proper cause, and only ever institute a draft if it is a defensive necessity. If we ever have an administration like this again, however, and they end up convincing everyone that we are indeed in a need for a defensive draft and in actually we aren't... Australia is looking awfully sunny...

[.Maleficus.]

I personally believe that every American should HAVE to serve either in the military, or Americorps or a local version like California corps. No exception. None. Not even for religious reasons. It could be just in a reserve status or you would get more education credits (or something) for active duty. I would wager that we would not even be in Iraq if this was the case. More parents would be outraged that their sons and daughters MAY be killed.

IMNSHO
I support this 900%.

I've also been seriously considering the armed forces for after high school. If the war is still going on, or if there is a new one starting up, I WILL join. And if there isn't one and I go to college, if one starts up, I WILL join up.


Period.

[xRyokenx]

I agree with him. In fact, if it weren't for a couple disabilities I have that a) massively hinder my abilities, and at times, my self control, and b) could land me a dishonorable discharge, I'd join up right away, if I hadn't done so by now. The military fascinates me, but I am doing my best to keep out so as not to cause any unnecessary problems for me or our government, who both have enough problems of their own. This may sound like me doing my usual "I'd do this but can't for x reason," which it probably is, but I am speaking my heart here.

[XcOM]

that was a ood read, it had some good points and some bad points.

[SgtM]

I personally believe that every American should HAVE to serve either in the military, or Americorps or a local version like California corps. No exception. None. Not even for religious reasons. It could be just in a reserve status or you would get more education credits (or something) for active duty. I would wager that we would not even be in Iraq if this was the case. More parents would be outraged that their sons and daughters MAY be killed.

IMNSHO

You hit the nail on the head AB! Military service and the experience in general really straightens people out. IMO, the (civilian) employment rate would rise, and the crime rate would all but disappear.


I support this 900%.

I've also been seriously considering the armed forces for after high school. If the war is still going on, or if there is a new one starting up, I WILL join. And if there isn't one and I go to college, if one starts up, I WILL join up.


Period.


If you have any questions, Mal, don't hesitate to ask.

I don't know that I would support a draft for the War on Terrorism. I kinda side with Ty on that ONLY if the US was in imminent danger of being overrun should there be a draft.

[.Maleficus.]

StgM, I have only 1 question.

Can you convince my mom to open up to the idea?

[Airbozo]

You do know recruiter's have been trained to handle this very thing, right? ;)

By the time my recruiter finished with my parents, they thought that they had come up with the idea, and that it was the best one ever!

-Jeremy


Funny funny, but true. After I had already signed the papers and aced the asvab (ok I missed 3...), I then told my adopted parents. They were stunned. They were so in denial that my adopted father actually called one of our representatives to tell them I had been conned and he wanted it canceled. I had the recruiter come by to talk with them and now to this day they are sure they convinced me to join...

My only regret was not staying active duty long enough to qualify for the GI bill. I would not have been able to purchase my house (most of it is now owned by me an not the bank...), without the loan guarantee from the military.

I must say, I do not support a draft for combat service. I only support a national service because I am positive that 99.9% of the kids today would benefit from the experience and NEED to learn how to communicate and interact with people of different backgrounds. It was the culture shock I went through that made me see people the way I do and respect those from different walks of life. My military experience also gave me some direction in my life. But I am in no way a lifer...

[AJ@PR]

LINK (http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/20478293/site/newsweek/)

I just found this on the web and thought it really said a lot. Some of us may agree with it and some may disagree but it's one man's opinion that in my opinion, is worth hearing.

Interesting read.
Thanks for sharing. :)

[Stockholm1984]

I do agree with AB in some respects as I think that many of the mindless yobs who live in the UK would get straightened up a bit if they were sent into the forces and saw just how tough life can really be getting some proper discipline. However, whether the draft, or 'conscription' as we know it over here, would be a good idea for someone like me is another matter, most probably because when it comes down to it I'm just a bit of a coward (or a conciencious objector as others like to call them ;)). But like tybrenis said, if my country was under immediate threat of invasion I would be wholehearted for joining up and fighting for it and believe everyone else should be too. Whether it would improve conditions in Iraq though is another matter, just look at what happened in Vietnam...

[Quakken]

He talks about terrorism. We are in iraq because it had a dictator, who even though he was a bad man, kept iran at bay and held the nation together (even if it was through torture and killing, he kept it together).

If a draft was instigated (and i was over eighteen) I would run to my nearest air force recruiter and join up. Or maybe navy.

I would hate being in the army. I could handle an airbase or a ship.

[Airbozo]

... We are in iraq because it had a dictator, who even though he was a bad man, kept iran at bay and held the nation together (even if it was through torture and killing, he kept it together).

If a draft was instigated (and i was over eighteen) I would run to my nearest air force recruiter and join up. Or maybe navy.

I would hate being in the army. I could handle an airbase or a ship.

Interesting thing, The US put that dictator in power in the first place. AND sold him the WMD's (the biological ones he used on his own countrymen). The US has a history of this sort of action. Anyone recall Noriega? How about Khadaffy? The list goes on....

[AJ@PR]

Interesting thing, The US put that dictator in power in the first place. AND sold him the WMD's (the biological ones he used on his own countrymen). The US has a history of this sort of action. Anyone recall Noriega? How about Khadaffy? The list goes on....

True AB.
How about the Maine in Cuba?

The US has done some dirty, dirty things.
Yet, I'm still proud of my country.

[calumc]

youre all forgetting one thing: iraq isnt a war on terror, its a war for oil

[xRyokenx]

Instead of "making it a flame war," we could start a discussion about why it may be either, hmm?

[tybrenis]

youre all forgetting one thing: iraq isnt a war on terror, its a war for oil

Someone had to say it. And I couldn't agree more. Lets turn this into a debate, I would love that. NOT a flame war, however, thats different. I'm sure we're all mature enough to debate this respectfully. With that said...

Is it merely coincidental that our country is run by owners of oil companies and similar large business owners? To say that this is the first time America has exploited other, smaller, weaker countries for their natural resources would be the biggest lie in history.

[SgtM]

StgM, I have only 1 question.

Can you convince my mom to open up to the idea?

I could talk to her if you want. I'm not a recruiter (discharged 7 years ago in fact), so I'm not going to make it all glamorous. I'll also be happy to answer any questions you may have. Your mom is (understandably) worried about the war, that I can not debate with her. It's a legimate concern, and one you need to keep in the forefront while making your decison. "Am I willing to fight and possibly die for my country?"

Ultimately, once you turn 18, it's up to you.

[Airbozo]

youre all forgetting one thing: iraq isnt a war on terror, its a war for oil

The war in Iraq is more about revenge than oil, although oil is a small part of it. For many years Saddam was a "good guy" in the eyes of the US because we put him in power and he worked with the US government. He started loosing favor with the US back in the 80's because he started acting like he was in charge of his own country. Due to political and idealogical beliefs in his own country he wanted to NOT be seen as a puppet to the US. The US government started to assert their will on Saddam and he played them for all he could, even getting the US to supply weapons and biological warfare items to his regime. This worked great for him as he gained respect from some of the middle east countries, but still he wanted more power and control over the area. When he invaded Kuwait, the _sr_ Bush administration was obligated to come to the aid of an ally and forced him back out. They should have taken him out then, but there would have been a worse dictator to take his place and the US knew it. Years later after many nose thumbings, along comes Shrub and his fathers old cronies (Cheney, Rumsfeld, and others), and then The World Trade Center attacks. This gives the administration the trumped up evidence they need to take out Saddam. Why were Shrub and etc. able to show a detailed list of biological weapons that Saddam had? They knew this of course because Bush sr's, Cheney's and Rummy's signatures were on the bill of materials the US sold him and (in my belief) Saddam was going to use it against them somehow (although it is common knowledge the US sold him the stuff and no one seems to care).

War in Afghanistan = Mostly justified and I believe it was the right thing to do.

War in Iraq = Political revenge (including the above story, Israeli pressure, Oil, and megalomaniacism) (is that a word?)

If the US truly wanted to attack the country responsible for these attacks, we would be in Saudi Arabia right now, but the Royal Family there is too rich to attack, are best buddies with the Bush family and own most of our asses anyway. All countries walk a thin line when it comes to dealing with the middle east due to the oil situation.

Just my observations.

[AJ@PR]

Why were Shrub and etc. able to show a detailed list of biological weapons that Saddam had? They knew this of course because Bush sr's, Cheney's and Rummy's signatures were on the bill of materials the US sold him ...

Timeless Daily Show Moment:::
Jon (imitating a doubtful reporter): So, Bush Admin, how do you know that Saddam has those weapons?
Jon (imitating Bush Admin): Well... he eh... well... we looked at the order's recipt. :redface:

LoL

On the other hand, I agree with your post, AB.

This is one big mess.
One thing's for sure::: War is a freaking amazing economic mover.
Be it for the good, or the bad.

[Vertigo]

I can't help but think of the Leviathan by Hobbes when I think of the war in Iraq. Obviously, the situation is a big mess with no simple answer. However, when Sadam was executed it took out the warden so to speak. Now all of the rival interests in the area are roused. So the question is, do we take Sadam's place as the peace keeper of the area. Or do we let this civil war (which is what it's turned into) play out on it's own. Either choice has it's problems honestly, but that's really the big choice our country faces at this point. Not "Cut and run or be a patriot" as some might argue.

But back to the topic at hand:
I'm going to have to agree with sgtm, I believe that in our government a draft is sort of a last resort option. Something you use only in cases of imminent danger to this country. I don't feel that Iraq is an imminent threat to this country. As for compulsory service, some countries do that ... however they are not democratic countries. I agree it's something that should be done, but at the same time I feel it's contrary to the ideals of this country to press people into service against their will.

[Ironcat]

As for compulsory service, some countries do that ... however they are not democratic countries

* Austria - president elected by direct popular vote - 18 years of age for compulsory military service

* Brazil - president elected by popular vote - 21-45 years of age for compulsory military service

* Croatia - president elected by popular vote - 18 years of age for compulsory military service

* Finland - president elected by popular vote - 18 years of age for voluntary and compulsory military service

* Mexico - president elected by popular vote - 18 years of age for compulsory military service

* Poland - president elcted by popular vote - 17 years of age for compulsory military service after January 1st of the year of 18th birthday

* Ukraine - president elcted by popular vote - 18-25 years of age for compulsory and voluntary military service

Source - CIA World factbook (https://www.cia.gov/library/publications/the-world-factbook/)

There are others too but I didn't want to bog people down with Parliamentary Democracies and the like...

[.Maleficus.]

I could talk to her if you want. I'm not a recruiter (discharged 7 years ago in fact), so I'm not going to make it all glamorous. I'll also be happy to answer any questions you may have. Your mom is (understandably) worried about the war, that I can not debate with her. It's a legimate concern, and one you need to keep in the forefront while making your decison. "Am I willing to fight and possibly die for my country?"

Ultimately, once you turn 18, it's up to you.
You hit the nail on the head. That's EXACTLY why she's worried. She knows that it's a great experience for anyone (and is happy for our neighbor who may be going to West Point in a year) but she's afraid I'll die. I however, am ok with that if it's for a good cause. And like I said, a war is a good enough cause for me to join, so that's no problem. I could also probably do with the discipline heh heh..

And thanks for the offer man, I really, really appreciate it. However, I doubt it would do much good right now, since I am only 15 and because of that my mom would take it more as a joke and brush it off right away. +rep to you though. It's stuff like that that makes this a great community.

[Vertigo]

* Austria - president elected by direct popular vote - 18 years of age for compulsory military service

* Brazil - president elected by popular vote - 21-45 years of age for compulsory military service

* Croatia - president elected by popular vote - 18 years of age for compulsory military service

* Finland - president elected by popular vote - 18 years of age for voluntary and compulsory military service

* Mexico - president elected by popular vote - 18 years of age for compulsory military service

* Poland - president elcted by popular vote - 17 years of age for compulsory military service after January 1st of the year of 18th birthday

* Ukraine - president elcted by popular vote - 18-25 years of age for compulsory and voluntary military service

Source - CIA World factbook (https://www.cia.gov/library/publications/the-world-factbook/)


There are others too but I didn't want to bog people down with Parliamentary Democracies and the like...

Good work, you have me there. But I still don't believe in compulsory service for a Democracy.

[tybrenis]

Good work, you have me there. But I still don't believe in compulsory service for a Democracy.

x2

[xRyokenx]

A thought just occurred to me... if there was a draft, a lot of people that really don't want to be in the service would be forced in, and then they would probably do stupid things to get out of the service... that would be a pain in the arse for the military... just a thought.