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TheGreatSatan
08-31-2007, 01:51 PM
Should I get these Logitech THX Z-5300e.

http://www.newegg.com/Product/Product.aspx?Item=N82E16836121121

Or Bose....

http://www.samsclub.com/shopping/navigate.do?dest=5&item=349465

I only mention Bose because of it reputation for great sound. Maybe you have an idea for great wireless surround sound

Eclecticos
08-31-2007, 02:00 PM
Well the Logitech has the subwoofer,
. .but I can garrundamntee you the Bose sound better.

rendermandan
08-31-2007, 02:00 PM
IMO, Bose is not worth the money. they are too expensive for what you get. They have brainwashed everyone into thinking they are the greatest thing next to cd's. They do not have great sound if you ask me. The small cube speakers do not recreate an acurrate mid base and mid range section. the speakers do not move enough air for this and the fact that they are paper cone speakers with no tweeter. The base module does a good job of low end bass and low mid bass. If you were to read pink noise thru a real time analyser you would see a massive drop around the midrange section.

Its the marketing that makes people think Bose are good. When in reality they are nothing more than a Kraco brand with a name on it. -yes Bose makes Kraco the same stuff sold at Kmart and Wal-Mart.

I would go with the logitech personally. and thats not just because I have Logitech speakers.

Scotty
08-31-2007, 02:17 PM
I like Bose, but if you aren't spending a crap load of cash then the quality isn't as good as the top end stuff, that's some sweet stuff. Id say the Logitech, surround sound would be better.

Crazy Buddhist
08-31-2007, 02:57 PM
TGS

I just bought a 2.1 baby version of the Logitech and it sounds great, really good, I have to say. I think the speakers are pretty much the same except mine doesn't have the five channel logic and no rear set of speakers. The bass is excellent and you can whack it up for movies and the amount of sound it creates surprising. There is also little distortion at the top end which is good.

Luke122
08-31-2007, 03:46 PM
"No highs, no lows, must be BOSE!"

Bose is a marketing machine.. they havent done anything good since the 901s, and even those arent that good IMO. Get yourself a T-Amp (http://www.partsexpress.com/pe/showdetl.cfm?&Partnumber=300-956) and a pair of these speakers (http://www.newegg.com/Product/Product.aspx?Item=N82E16882603002), and you will be in audio heaven.

Go with the Logitechs if you have to choose from those two. I've had good luck with Altec Lansings also.

If you think Bose sounds good, then you havent heard nearly enough speakers. :)

xRyokenx
08-31-2007, 03:53 PM
My $30 Altec Lansings seem to be better than some Bose speakers, lol... if I get surround sound, I'm gonna see if I can't get Sennheiser, if they make speakers anyway.

.Maleficus.
08-31-2007, 03:57 PM
I have the Z-5300es and they are AMAZING. I LOVE the sound they put out. They were SOOOO worth the little cash that they cost (for something of this quality).

Indybird
08-31-2007, 09:27 PM
I have the Logitech Z-5500's and I compare to $500+ systems. If you go Logitech, you will not be disappointed.

I've tried those Bose out at Best Buy, and though they sounded pretty decent for 2 channel speakers, I guarantee you'll like the Logitechs more. The only products I really like from Bose lately are their headphones.

-Indybird

Crazy Buddhist
09-01-2007, 02:08 AM
Thats three votes from owners for Logitech :up:

Omega
09-01-2007, 04:50 PM
Make it four votes from the Logitech woners. ;)

Zephik
09-01-2007, 05:25 PM
Go with the Logitech. REAL surround sound is always better. Bose is only good when you spend $700+, but even then, a true surround sound setup is better. Bose has the best 2.1 surround sound setup around, but its over priced for what you get and its not as good as true surround sound (5.1+).

Logitech FTW. Bose FTRPWDKAB.
*FTRPWDKAB = For the rich people who don't know any better.

TheGreatSatan
09-01-2007, 05:25 PM
I bought the Z-5300e's

Crazy Buddhist
09-01-2007, 05:30 PM
My neighbours hate my logitech speakers! Hope you are happy with yours :)

carvernut
09-19-2007, 11:10 AM
go with the logitech, way better sound than bose, bose imho is junk if it's newer... bose has a sales department twice as big as their research side and their marketing and advertising is four times as big as their sales... you do the math, sad to see a company that used to make such nice products in the mid 60's and 70's fall so low today...

also fyi: bose does NOT post the freq response of their products, also please remember that even the orginal famous 901 had ACTIVE eq'ing. They were not well designed in box or driver design, a well made speaker and box compliment each other, and do not need an eq.

besides... the little 3 2 1 system they they try to say sounds so good can be easily overwhelmed with less money spent on a good stereo amp and good speakers,

example: the system i started with was a carver c4000 pre amp (modded slightly), a carver 1.5t stereo amp and a set of Klipsch KG 5.2 floorstanding speakers, all these were purchased used of course... cost was less then 500.00 for the entire setup and can dip into 28hz when properly placed in a well treated room and has no need for a subwoofer... and the sound is phenominal vs the weak sound of bose

just my 2 cents

carvernut
09-19-2007, 04:37 PM
thank you... i've loved looking at some of these mods which are wicked cool so i decided to join up and listen in...


btw alittle something VERY interesting about bose if you really want the facts about them: http://www.intellexual.net/bose.html please note that if you look at the drivers that are the 2.5 mid high units, they only extend to 14 khz... far short of what you would want for any system.

specs on the bose AM-15 home theater unit satellite speakers:

Frequency Response 280 Hz to 13.3k Hz at 10.5 dB plus or minus TEN DECIBLES PPL! >_<
Sensitivity (SPL at 1 meter)* 85.1 dB
Impedance (minimum/nominal) 5.3/8 ohms
Bass Limits (-3/-6 dB) 280/220

* measured with 2.8 volts of pink-noise input

and everyone wonders why i have a vendeta against bose

carvernut
09-19-2007, 07:40 PM
I have an altec lansig 5.1 setup for my htpc, that I am very satisfied with, and a harmon-kardon 2.1 system that USED to almost match my 5.1 in sound quality.. now it doesn't work for some reason :( just "hums"..

(btw i am no audiophile in any extent.. I can hook up a car stereo and subs to amps, etc, but that's it.. I don't know technical terms, "dB" ratings and all that stuff.. :) )

-Jeremy

just hums, alot of things can cause that... try cheaking your input jack and make sure all your contacts are solidly soddered...

db rating of sensitivity: 85 db means that at one watt of power into these speakers will generate 85 db's of sound, for each additionall 3 db increase you will have to DOUBLE your wattage, this is why the famouse Cewrin Vega Strokers were so fantastic, their sensitivity was over 97 db's @ 1 watt...

in other words these bose speakers... or any other speaker with a 85 db rating would need 16 times more power than than the strokers to reach the same output... becuase for each 3 db gain you must double your wattage,

so lets start with the bose, to reach 88 db's we go from 1 watt to 2 watts, from 88 to 91 we now need 4 watts, from 91 to 94 we need 8 watts and finally to reach 97 watts we need 16 watts... not very much granted in the world of amps that easily put out many K's of watts... but now lets apply that to the stroker... 97 db @ 1 watt now to 100 db's is 2 watts, 103 puts us at 4 watts, 106 db's from 8 watts and 109 db's output from 16 watts... thats a gain of 12 db's JUST from having a more efficient speaker.

the more efficient your speaker the easier it reproduces sound and takes less power to do so... plus the less efficient the speaker the more power it takes to put out the same... but the more power also means a higher resistance and then begins to introduce magnetic flux iregularities and variations in your sound waves, deviating from the true recording and becoming distortions and phase shifts resulting in coloration of your sound.

and i absolutely loved those old Altec Lancing systems, they sounded very truely hi-fi for being so small.

Luke122
09-19-2007, 07:51 PM
I'll try to break that down..


Frequency Response 280 Hz to 13.3k Hz at 10.5 dB

-This means that from 280hz (mid-bass.. a good fullrange speaker should get at LEAST to 100hz) to 13.3khz (humans can hear up to 20khz), there should be no more than 10.5db of difference. That is CRAP!!!! 3db = 10x louder! 10.5 db is a totally unacceptable number! So some frequencies will play 1000x louder than others?


Sensitivity (SPL at 1 meter)* 85.1 dB

- From a distance of 1 meter (approx 3.3ft) this speaker will play 85db with one watt of power. My Sony bookshelf speakers are 88db, and the speakers that Airbozo was so kind as to intermediate ship to me are 91db!!! Not only is this a measure of loudness, but also of sensitivity and accuracy. This speaker with its low efficiency will likely have huge fluctuations in its output. Oh wait..

Impedance (minimum/nominal) 5.3/8 ohms

- This measurement is the avg resistance of the speaker; ie the load that the amp will see. Due to different frequencies and different boxes affecting the resistance, this number can get huuuuge. I've seen 21ohms in competition car subwoofer systems.. but those guys are running 1000's of watts and drawing 100's of amps of current.

For a small speaker to range from 5.3 - 8ohms, this can be a huge stress on lower powered home audio amps. Potentially destructive.. some amps recommend 8phm MINIMUM.

Bass Limits (-3/-6 dB) 280/220

- At 280hz, the output is 3db lower than the rest of the spectrum. At 220, its 6db lower! A good bass output from a speaker should be like 100hz.. lower is better,, to be 6db down at 220hz is junk. Your ipod headphones probably are better than that!!!

carvernut
09-19-2007, 08:13 PM
heya luke! nice to meet someone else as nutty about sound as me! glad there are some ppl who care... interesting what happens when you start doing some testing and actually get real time numbers off these bose systems isn't it? sad really... so many ppl think that bose is the best out there

yeah i loved that 10 db varience of the full range lol... i refuse to go over +/- 3 over the entire range with tweaking the crossovers and room... 10 is so so crazy off the charts it's totall trash

carvernut
09-20-2007, 04:37 PM
Omg.. everything you just said to me.. was GREEK guys. lol. You totally proved that I have a LOT to learn in the audio area.

+rep to our two major audiophiles here!

-Jeremy

and i know how to turn a dremmel on :P all in what you specialize, i've been messing with audio from the tender age of 13 lol... and alot of these numbers won't make sense to the average user... thats how bose takes advantage of everyone.

Indybird
09-20-2007, 06:28 PM
ok, now Im curious. I got the Logitech Z-5500's, and as far I can tell, they are great. Heres (http://www.logitech.com/index.cfm/speakers_audio/home_pc_speakers/devices/224&cl=us,en) the specs. How do they checkout as far as either of you are concerned?

/sorry for the thread hijack/

-Indybird

Luke122
09-20-2007, 06:58 PM
They dont really publish much as far as frequency response, but here's what I found on the link you gave.

Technical Specifications

o Total FTC power: 505 watts RMS
Sub-woofer: 188 watts RMS (into 8 ohms, @ 100Hz, @ 10% THD)
Satellites:
Left/Right: 62 watts RMS x 2 (into 8 ohms, @ 1khz, @ 10% THD)
Center: 69 watts RMS (into 8 ohms, @ 1kHz, @ 10% THD)
Rear Left & Right: 62 watts RMS x 2 (into 8 ohms, @ 1kHz, @ 10% THD)
o Total Peak power: 1010 watts
o Maximum SPL: >115 dB
o Frequency response: 33 Hz 20 kHz
o Amplifier: Ultra-linear, high-capacity analog
o Signal to noise ratio: >93.5 dB, typical 100

--------

Straight away, I'm worried to see 10% THD (Total Harmonic Distortion).. that's actually quite a high number. However, that is at fairly high volume (60+ watts on the speaks and 180+watts on the sub). You certainly wouldn't spend long periods of time listening at that volume, even during movies or game sessions. I know some of you are saying, "YES, I WOULD!" but that's like full volume. No, you dont. :)

Frequency response is much better... 33hz - 20khz is actually quite good. 115 db spl (sound pressure level, or loudness) is siiiiick loud. Polk SRT systems cost $20k+ and hit 120db, so this will be plenty loud for most scenarios. However, that volume level will have tons of distortion, so it's unlikely you'd like it much at that volume.

The signal to noise ratio is not bad.. average 100db would make this a decent system for movies and games. :)

I should clarify here that I'm a real serious 2 channel audio guy.. I know my way around a 5.1 setup (and 7.1, etc) but my true passion is in stereo. The specs and theories are all the same, but there is a pretty big difference, not only in the number of speakers, but the needed response from a system without a sub.

My setup is running 15watts per channel PEAK, or about 8watts average to a pair of 2 way (woofer and tweeter) bookshelf speakers through my own custom built Cat5 speaker wire. The speakers are rated to 60watts each, so no chance of overpowering them exists at the moment.

They are running approx 70hz to 20khz, but they are ported, and set close the wall for a bit more bass output. The stands are mass loaded (filled with sand), and isolated with spikes to increase the bass also.

My audio source is a SCPH-1001 Playstation (1st Gen) with custom made interconnects with gold plated ends, and my amp is a Sonica Super T-amp with no mods at this time.

The total cost of the system is under $200, and thanks to Airbozo, my new speaker plans and drivers have arrived at the office today (Total cost including shipping: $75 CAD) so I'll pick those up tomorrow when I go back to work. The cabinets should cost about $100 for material and labor, and I'll end up with a system that will rival setups costing $10-20,000 dollars for quality and clarity.

My next plan is a Bottlehead tube pre-amp, ($99 kit) which should really make a difference.

dgrmkrp
09-20-2007, 07:07 PM
-This means that from 280hz (mid-bass.. a good fullrange speaker should get at LEAST to 100hz) to 13.3khz (humans can hear up to 20khz), there should be no more than 10.5db of difference. That is CRAP!!!! 3db = 10x louder! 10.5 db is a totally unacceptable number! So some frequencies will play 1000x louder than others?

Sorry for butting in.. but... errm.. Are you sure about the 1000x? I think it should be smaller.. say like.. 8.. or 10x max.. when we talk about decibels, we should consider the mathematical formula from which this number arises.. it is relative, but I'd say that the difference in sound that the user perceives is like .. much less ;) check at least wikipedia, if not a book, to make sure (I may be right or wrong, but some memories tell me I'm close).. the difference you should note is between electrical stuff and acoustics :) I do agree that 10db is waaaay too loose a tolerance, as 3db is the limit.. 1db is noticeable, while a 3db difference is a doubling in sound intensity (higer frequencies are more noticed till at a point, then the ear mechanics go into play, high and low).. if you add up to 10db, logarithmically or logically, you get less than 1000 :) Anyhow, human hearing is very different than a chart will try to tell.. it is true that some might try to lure the untrained with technical data and stuff.. that's marketing for them :( And going as low as 50Hz should be possible, if you use some tricks when doing your sound setup, even with cheaper stuff :) One thing to note is that you can make a perfect cabinet only coupled with the room.. Box, speaker, room and other volumes interact to create the sound.. very complicated.. nut humans make compromises.

The z-5500 being THX certified, it will abide by their distortion tolerances: very low. You can't push them too far cause the ones who made them thought a little and wont allow you to go into clipping. A neighbor has them and I'm not bothered by them: I sometimes turn down my music to see what he is listening to :) Very good, clean sound. But that is the illusion 5.1 gives :) A good sound card will make them sound even better.

Errm.. I'll hide in my cave now and continue with case design :)

carvernut
09-20-2007, 07:51 PM
if you add up to 10db, logarithmically or logically, you get less than 1000 :)

10 db +/- is roughly 14 times louder or quieter in specific frequencies... and yes... +/- 3 db should be the most a true audiophile would be content with... and 1% over the entire spectrum is not as hard as you would think.


now those numbers are only truely perfect to a machine since a human being will pick up on more higher freq notes and shorter length *burst* notes...

a short high pitched picoloe is more noticable to the human ear than a french horn even if they are both played at exactly perfect duplicate volume and over a high end audiphile grade system you will think the picoloe is louder than the french horn.


You certainly wouldn't spend long periods of time listening at that volume, even during movies or game sessions. I know some of you are saying, "YES, I WOULD!" but that's like full volume. No, you dont. :)


trust him he's right... most of you have probably never heard of "ear fatique" but this is a condition caused by listening to poor quality stereo's and pushing stereo's beyond their limit and causing inaudible, and audible distortion.

This causes your ear and brain to try to tune out loads of trash that you don't recognise and don't even notice... becuase you are focusing on the music but your brain and ears are working overtime to filter the noise and trash so you can hear your music...

Listening to these speakers at those power levels will literally cause headache's, not from the volume but from your mind trying to filter out the noise from the music. but at lower volumes say, 60-80 db they will sound very clean a clear...

THX is not the best by any means, but it at least sets a industry standard for decent audio gear.

now... volume without distortion is a whole new ballpark... if the system is of high quality and high power or high eficiency or both... you can easily damage your hearing without ever knowing it becuase of lack of distortion you push the volume far higher than your hearing can safely tolerate.

I have to be carefull of this with my system becuase the overall THD is less than .05% at 101 db's due to speaker efficiency and amplifier headroom and higher quality of equipment. It's very easy to push the system to over 120 db's with negligable amounts of distortion as long as rms power and peak headrooms are carefully monitered and controlled to eliminate clipping and monitering input voltages.

However i do like listening to music at these volumes... the clearness and things you never heard before is breathtaking. For example the William tell ovature played on this system you can make out the Clarinet player tapping the pads of the keys against the body of the instrument... totally inaudible on many other stereo's, being able to hear the people breathing as a soloist performes urges you to turn it up more to hear what else you might be missing.

It's like looking at the sun without filters... it's beatifull and the more you look the more you see and the more beautifull it becomes... but if your not carefull... you'll do permanant damage to yourself.



and i don't have a 5.1 surround sound setup... i hate the system... the music and dialog comes from the front of you room and does little to help immurse you into the movie or music... i use Quadrasonic, which is double stereo: two stereo speakers in front and two in back... perfect balancing and speaker placement makes your speakers disappear and all the sound seems to comefrom all around your in perfect balance and like your really there. it really lends itself to realism and imursing yourself in the movie.

Luke122
09-20-2007, 09:32 PM
Sorry for butting in.. but... errm.. Are you sure about the 1000x? I think it should be smaller.. say like.. 8.. or 10x max..

Yup, you are right.. sorry about that! *blush*

carvernut
09-20-2007, 10:14 PM
trigger finger on the zero button ;P

Luke122
09-20-2007, 11:05 PM
I blame faulty math skills.. haha. It's not an exponential increase, but I math'd it that way. :)

carvernut
09-20-2007, 11:11 PM
I blame faulty math skills.. haha. It's not an exponential increase, but I math'd it that way. :)


12 db slope right? ;):D

NamesAreUseless
05-29-2008, 11:07 PM
To me, Bose is just like the Macbook Air, It works just like all the others but it's just small, but at a large price. Why spend your money on something small, when you can get something that is more functional at a fraction of the price.

d_stilgar
05-30-2008, 02:01 PM
TGS already said he got the Logitech speakers.

My opinion of a speaker company depends on the sound recreation. I don't give a crap about numbers and figures. You can have the best numbers and still have a crap product.

I took my Zune into some stores and hooked it up to the various speaker systems. I then listened to some of my music and decided on what I liked most. My final debate was between the Bose companion 3, and the Bose companion 5. I finally decided on the companion 3 because I found that although the companion 5 set up created a fairly good simulated surround experience, that it lost some clarity due to the multiple drivers in each speaker. I purchased the companion 3 set up and love them. I've read all the stuff about Bose being stupid and not actually having good products, but when it got right down to it, I went to the store, listened to a signal I was very familiar with on all the speakers, and liked the Bose speakers the best.

If the drivers are so cheap, then why didn't the other companies produce speakers that could compete? Whatever Bose is doing, their speakers sound good, better than a bunch of other systems. I'm not a Bose fanboy, but they just won fair and square in a listening test.