Above Freezing Water Chiller?

[J-Roc]

Hey Guys! J-Roc here with another question.

I was pondering the thought of adding a water chiller to my cooling loop. I dont want to go below freezing because that can lead to all sorts of problems and issues. Below ambient but above freezing is what im looking for.

Problem...
All the water chillers i can find on google are industrial grade and run in the neighborhood of $300-1900. So that avenue is closed. Then i thought about making one. Only problem with that is that everyone who builds one of thies things is trying to get -20c to -30c. This is usually achived by moding a mini fridge or AC unit into some sort of external enclosure. Again, this is not my style and might be too involved a project for me.

Essentially i am looking for somthing along the lines of this unit:
http://www.xoxide.com/coolit-systems-tec-water-cooling.html

I cant afford to buy it and chop out the pieces i'd need to make my own. Perhaps somone knows where to get a chiller like that. Or maybe a link to something along thoes lines like a metal reservoir where i can attach some TEC units.

-Thanks, J-Roc

[D1337]

Hey Guys! J-Roc here with another question.

I was pondering the thought of adding a water chiller to my cooling loop. I dont want to go below freezing because that can lead to all sorts of problems and issues. Below ambient but above freezing is what im looking for.

Problem...
All the water chillers i can find on google are industrial grade and run in the neighborhood of $300-1900. So that avenue is closed. Then i thought about making one. Only problem with that is that everyone who builds one of thies things is trying to get -20c to -30c. This is usually achived by moding a mini fridge or AC unit into some sort of external enclosure. Again, this is not my style and might be too involved a project for me.

Essentially i am looking for somthing along the lines of this unit:
http://www.xoxide.com/coolit-systems-tec-water-cooling.html

I cant afford to buy it and chop out the pieces i'd need to make my own. Perhaps somone knows where to get a chiller like that. Or maybe a link to something along thoes lines like a metal reservoir where i can attach some TEC units.

-Thanks, J-Roc

Tec's will cause MAJOR problems if you dont know what your doing. Your best bet is to keep any tec's external or as sealed as possible inside the case as they will produce condensation. which is obviously BAD.

If your talking about those 1-2 foot tall mini fridges, they use a tec a heatsink and a fan.

The unit you linked us to is a completely loop, which is a waste of money if you already have a wcing loop.

[J-Roc]

My thoughts exactly.

I dont want to put any Tec's directly on the die(s) nor do i want anything external. I just want to chill the water to below room temp. I dont want to deal with condensation on my components but i could live with a little in an unused corner of my case. I was unaware mini fridges used tec's, i thought they used compressed refidgerant.

The unit i linked to was just an example. Its the only unit i've ever seen which cool's but doesnt go below freezing. I am looking for somthing like the chiller attached to it.

[D1337]

This is what i would do, and what i probably will do in the future.

Buy a Tec, buy a waterblock(anything CHEAP) that covers most if not the entire tec.

Make something to force the tec and waterblock together, like two pieces of square metal that sandwitch the tec/wb held together by screws and bolts.

insulate the wires as best as possible to prevent shorting.
then encase the entire thing with plexiglass and seal it as water tight as possible

[Spawn-Inc]

i would grab 2 old heat sinks and strap them to a tec. then cut open a stock res, or make your own and put the cold side in the res and seal it up with silicone. fill it back up with water and put a fan on the hot side of the tec.

[J-Roc]

I know the point of this site is to be creative and make things yourself. However, i havent a clue on how to make a custom reservoir that is actually leak proof. :)

Would i get enough heat transfer through a generic acrylic reservoir to go on with this idea? Perhaps somone knows of a supplier or website that makes metal reservoirs?

Its not so much that dont think i could make somthing custom like this. Its more to the fact that i live in an appartment and dont own many if any power tools. No tap's or die's or brazing torches which i think would be required to make a metal reservoir.

Thanks again guys!

Spawn, im a little confused with the specs in your sig.
Celeron D 420 1.60GHz stable @ 3.1GHz 1555MHz FSB on ACFZP7(*Core 2 Quad Q6600)

Quad core celeron D with 1555FSB?

[Spawn-Inc]

haha, i was wondering if people where gonna mix that up. all the stuff in (brackets) with *'s mean i will be replacing the stuff before it with whats in the bracket. i should update it as i will undoubtedly wait for the newer Q9450 quad core. i will also wait for the newer video cards to and see what they can do before i buy an ultra.



as for the reservoir thing i mean you can go buy a ready made one (swiftech micro res for example) then get out your dremel and cut a hole in the side of it. get a copper or aluminium heat sink and cut the first row of the outside pins and then stick the heatsink in the side of the res. use some silicone and put the tec of the heatsink and it should chill the water nicely. you could even get ride of the rad all together if its powerful enough.

if you still don't understand my crappy english skills i will do a quick google sketchup drawing.

[FrooP]

maybe a cheap fridge chiller thing...sorry but german xD
liink (http://www.extremecooling.net/index/e107_plugins/content/content.php?content.6)

[NightrainSrt4]

From my understanding, going below freezing isn't the issue...it IS going below ambient. Going below freezing just creates ice crystals and such that melt and drip all over stuff when the computers off and comes back up to ambient temperatures.

If you start going to close to ambient temps or below your going to get condensation. Condensation will form below ambient temps, not just below freezing.



Take this example...

On a hot summer day, grab a glass of really cold soda or water or watever. It doesn't even need ice in it and it will form condensation on the glass.

The freezing point isn't going to be your issue, its the ambient temperatures.




Just figured I'd warn you ahead of time before you run off and buy a whole bunch of stuff, only to go crazy trying to figure out why your having condensation all over the inside of your pc.

[FrooP]

therefor you need to isolate everything, and fill the holes with silicone or vaseline, so no air ( air contains water, that condensates and gets..om... fluid?...yeah..wet :D and thats bad) so, no air on the cold parts=erverything is fine ;)

[NightrainSrt4]

That makes it sound easy but...

you can only seal off the cold side then. Because you cant effectively seal off the hot side as well or you won't have a way to cool the hot side of the tec.



And what I am saying is also about the tubes with the water. If the water running through the water cooling tubes is colder than the ambient temperatures, water will condensate on the tubes themselves as well. Unless I am just not picturing a way to completely seal off the tubes as well. That may work, but not sure how you would seal off EVERYTHING that is below ambient temps.


This is becoming hard to theorize things with out pics so...


:pics:

Throw some ideas on paper so we can more adequately understand what you are trying to do. If you could that would be great.

[Spawn-Inc]

i did a quick sketchup, i haven't used it for a while so i didn't do much, and here is what i am talking about.

Note: the yellow is where you would put the silicone to seal it. i would also cut the outside fins off and silicone that too. by that i mean if you see this heat sink (http://www.ocztechnology.com/images/products/accessories/b/bga-ramsink-1.jpg) it has 24 fins/prongs. i would cut the ones around the edge to leave 8 fins/prongs left. where i cut i would silicone like crazy.

http://img143.imageshack.us/img143/2167/teccoolermg8.th.jpg (http://img143.imageshack.us/my.php?image=teccoolermg8.jpg)

i would use a fish tank type silicone since its made to be in water 24/7.

like NightrainSrt4 said, you will need to insulate alot of stuff. i wouldn't want the water much below ambient temps. i would test out the system first and see if you build up any condensation first and go from there if you build it. if you don't want to go to alot of trouble and don't care how it looks then i would grab a medium to large coffee tin and strap the tec to the bottem of the can. then you don't have to cut anything.

[NightrainSrt4]

Spawn, ya thats the way I pictured it. That I would think would work. You would just have to isolate the entire tubing in the water loop. Because, if I am thinking right, thats where the condensation is going to form other than by the tec. The tubes.

If you can find a way to get something around the tubes that will stop the condensation then you should be good.

Might be an interesting project. Just get one of those 10$ ebay tec's or something just for fun. Use an old pentium 1 heatsink or something, like you suggested with the fins cut so you can silicone it.

Worth trying I suppose. I would just try it on an old system and not a nice one just incase it isn't isolated properly. :up:

[Spawn-Inc]

you can get foam tape that would wrap nicely around the tubing or even HVAC type insulation for the copper tubing. i would try this just on its own at first though if i was to try it.

[J-Roc]

Thanks for the input guys, you've givven me some good points of view. However, im a classy guy and like things to look neat & clean. While i was at work today, i started to think of way's i can accomplish this goal. Well, from where i sit it seems almost to easy. I figure i can do this by making an adapter plate for a fan hole, 90mm - 80mm out of aluminum.

Here's what im thinking....
I'll buy one of thies ThermalTake Res' (http://us.st11.yimg.com/us.st.yimg.com/I/xoxide_1971_60389686). I'll remove the plexi window from the backside and attach a solid plate of aluminum thats a bit bigger so i can mount it in a 90mm fan hole. Thats essentially the hard part for fabrication.

last night while fking around with a bag of old heatsinc's i came to realize that the mounting holes on a stock pentium heatsinc are exactly the same as an 80mm fan. Bing Bing! WE HAVE A WINNER!

I'll sandwhich the TEC between the backplate of the res and the intel heatsinc and fan. I should be able to stick it all together with some longer bolts or screws. So with this approach, the reservoir will be inside the case, the intel heatsinc, fan, and TEC will be outside the case.

I guess i still have to worry about condensation but im hoping i'll be able to adjust the current going to the TEC with some sort of volume control nob or somthing along thoes lines. Can you vary the heat of TEC's?

[Spawn-Inc]

sounds good, makes bit simple but then you gotta fork out the cash for that. since its a flat sheet of metal then it will be a bit harder to take the heat out but then you might not get condensation.


Can you vary the heat of TEC's?
yes by changing the voltages, i think it will tell you in the specs.

[J-Roc]

Intresting point...
I do have a grocery bag full of various sized heatsinc's. I could stick a small one inside the reservoir. Do you think i thermal sticky pad would hold it to the aluminum backplate while underwater, or should i look for a marine grade epoxy?

[Spawn-Inc]

what i would do is get a copper sheet/plate (i'm thinking 1/8" or so) instead of aluminum and then get the P4 heat sink for the TEC side like what you said then find a heat sink of the same dimensions for the other side but will still fit in the res then get 4 long bolts to go through everything. put AS5 on the internal heat sink, copper plate and TEC, TEC and p4 heat sink. i would then get fish tank grade silicone and put a bead around the edge of the internal heat sink and bolts (put in on the bolt before tightening it down) and let it dry for a day or how ever long it takes.


if you really want it to look nice go to a machine shop and bring the old plexi cover and ask them how much to copy the shape into copper.

[NightrainSrt4]

As long as you keep the water temperature above ambient temperatures it sounds like you will be ok. Just have to watch out if it reaches or goes below ambient temps.

You are going to be using quite a bit of energy to cool just a few degrees though. TEC's work best when a load is being put on them (aka a hot cpu). The TEC in your case is going to be on something that really isn't going to be that hot. Therefore its not going to be as efficient. If poor efficiency doesn't matter to ya than go for it. Does sound cool though. I also like that res, it looks cool.


EDIT:::

Which ever metal you choose to use for the back of the res, make sure it is the same thing as your water blocks (i.e. copper blocks, copper res back... aluminum blocks, aluminum res back) MIXING metals that contact the water in a loop = BIG NONO!!! This also means, if you put an additional block on the inside of the res as spawn mentioned, you need to make sure it is the same metal once again.

[Spawn-Inc]

As long as you keep the water temperature above ambient temperatures it sounds like you will be ok. Just have to watch out if it reaches or goes below ambient temps.

You are going to be using quite a bit of energy to cool just a few degrees though. TEC's work best when a load is being put on them (aka a hot cpu). The TEC in your case is going to be on something that really isn't going to be that hot. Therefore its not going to be as efficient. If poor efficiency doesn't matter to ya than go for it. Does sound cool though. I also like that res, it looks cool.


EDIT:::

Which ever metal you choose to use for the back of the res, make sure it is the same thing as your water blocks (i.e. copper blocks, copper res back... aluminum blocks, aluminum res back) MIXING metals that contact the water in a loop = BIG NONO!!! This also means, if you put an additional block on the inside of the res as spawn mentioned, you need to make sure it is the same metal once again.

oh ya the tec need to be under load for the best performance. i think i would go rad less and or a small res, it will put more heat in the water and more load, should also be quieter.

yes i wasn't sure what the res is made of but most blocks (good anyway) are copper.

[J-Roc]

Well, that raises an intresting point. I did some brief reconnaissance on rads and they all appear to have copper tubes in them. Maybe it was just the few i looked at. Anyway, that reservoir is extruded aluminum. Problem? Does the anodizing protect the metal and stop the reaction?

Also, what wattage peltier would best suit this? Ebay has peltiers as low as 43 watts. Off my judgment, i would asume a 90watt peltier would be ideal. I am however no expert.

[D1337]

the higher the wattage the better, unless you plan on stacking several tec's.

I would get one ~130 watts anything below 100 is just barely going to show any effect.. and i mean less then 5 degree's

After reading more into tec's i actually dont think this is a good idea.. but what ever floats your boat

[Spawn-Inc]

i would look at the amout of heat the cpu and gpu you want puts out. at least match the wattages for the both. if you are going to do this i would get everything but the rad and see if you would need it or not. if you do just buy it after. i'm thinking since its painted and anodized it should be find from corrosion but not 100% on that.

[Outlaw]

Thought I would throw my 2cents worth in here. Please use this as reference only as I am also no expert with this.

I have used a 75W TEC to cool my P4 2.0Ghz to 27C idle. When I went to remove it after testing, I found condensation. If you are just cooling the processor through a res. (like it was said above somewhere) you aren't going to have much to cool so you will have below ambient water (depending on pump speed/tubing size) cooling the processor. Personally I don't think you would need a huge TEC to do this and had actually looked into it a little myself but most everyone says it is not worth it and to just get a good water cooling or a TEC with the proper wattage and put it directly onto the CPU. If the right TEC is used, you can cool it enough and prevent condensation. Along with that put the water cooling on the hot side of the TEC.

Hope this helps...if not I shared it anyways. :)

Good Luck!

[NightrainSrt4]

Ya, I don't really agree with this either, but...This seems like what he wants to do so I will give all the input I can on it. But I agree with the concept that you would be better off just putting the tec on the cpu itself. Less hastle, better performance. But if he can do it the way he wants and it works well enough (as energy inefficient as it may be) then all the power to him, and he'd be doing it as he goes along, making something new, instead of just slapping it together. So Im here to help!

[Outlaw]

I'm all for you trying it if you have the time and money to do it. Save me from trying to find both of those to try it myself. When I used the TEC directly on my processor. I was using the OE Intel HS with a TT Fan. I didn't overclock anything but thought it was pretty cool that it got that low. I just quickly read through here and don't remember if you said what setup you were going to do this on. If it is anything somewhat new (C2D). As far as my understanding they run cooler then most older procs. I would just do the TEC on proc with water cooling the hot side of the TEC. Just my opinion, but good luck and hope to see some pics!

[NightrainSrt4]

Ya, Im not doing it, i was just helping out with ideas and criticism :). If this does go into action def make a worklog though...anyone who tries it.

[Spawn-Inc]

well once i get some money and i get my water cooling loop i might look into doing something like this. i would just make my own copper res and strap one down on it.

[J-Roc]

Well, an unexpected series of events has occured and i need to buy a new car. I'll have to put this on hold for a month or so. I was going to get a waterblock for my grafix card aswell and thats whats holding this back. I need the waterblock before i think about chilling the water. I hope i can get a TEC fairly cheap and the res is only like $30 so it shouldnt take me too long to dig up some scratch. I'm getting a credit card soon but who knows how long thats going to take. So, one thing at a time. I'll definitly keep you guys updated.

This seems so original, this seems so right.

[Darth Dad]

So many cool computer mods...so little money...damn!