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Tech-Daddy
04-01-2008, 11:44 PM
Have you guys been keeping up on this at all??!?!
I am so pissed it is amazing!

Synopsis: A driver modder was altering the Creative drivers to work "as they should" in Vista, what he found was that Creative was intentionally crippling their drivers!

http://www.custompc.co.uk/news/602343/creative-driver-modder-responds-to-crackdown/page1.html


http://www.maximumpc.com/article/daily_news_brief_creative_publicly_denounces_modde r_sparks_internet_backlash
http://blog.wired.com/gadgets/2008/04/daniel_k-who-fi.html

242 pages of responses on Creatives own website, and their VP stepped in it big when he effectively confirmed what their company was doing!
"O'Shaughnessy also wrote that whether or not it cripples its Vista drivers is a "business decision that only we have the right to make."

WTF?!?!?


Read on, make your own opinion on this.

As for me, all Creative product will be removed from my house. X-Fi, speakers, everything...

-=TD

Tech-Daddy
04-01-2008, 11:47 PM
here is the forum link:
http://forums.creative.com/creativelabs/board/message?board.id=soundblaster&thread.id=116332&view=by_date_ascending&page=1

OvRiDe
04-02-2008, 04:06 AM
Thanks for bringing this to my attention! I have not seen any of this. I have suspected this behavior from Creative for a while. I had gotten one of their webcams just before Vista was released. It worked great under XP, nice form factor.. its one of the Ultra Notebook versions so it will clip itself to the laptop screen, etc etc. Well Vista hits and a few months go by, so I decided to give the trial a shot. Everything loaded up, and I went out to get the Vista drivers for the webcam... well guess what.. No Vista drivers available, and a note saying that this cam will essentially not be supported, and there are no plans for a vista driver release. This web cam is maybe 4 months old, and it was a newer model when I bought it. So of course there is a NEW webcam that is supported by Vista. So to me the kicker is the fact that I have an old Compaq webcam that I have had since 1998, plugged it in and Vista sees it with out issue. So obviously its not that CL couldn't provide a working driver, they wanted to sell new webcams. I will no longer buy Creative Lab products. As for removing current CL products, at the moment I have an older Live card sitting on the shelf that I am not using anyway, but I may have a tough time getting rid of my recently purchased GigaWorks T20s. :( But I will definitely not be buying anything in the future, unless they do something drastic to make this right!

This is one of the things I really love about the internet. I hope this really shows the corporations that it really is your customers that can make or break you, and you should never just rest on your name! 2400 unsatisfied customers and growing on their support forums!! Gotta love it.

Thanks for sharing,

HACKERS of the WORLD UNITE!! (Sorry couldn't resist!)

Cookies N' Milk
04-02-2008, 06:38 AM
That is pretty messed up. I guess I will be running down to the store when it opens today to replace my Creative sound card + speakers and to buy my mom a new MP3 since she uses a Zen.

He may have been in the wrong to be asking for donations but still Creative screwed up big on this one. I read about 10pages of that post on their forums and it looks like a lot of people will not be buying creative products again.

crenn
04-02-2008, 08:27 AM
I'll be getting an X-Fi... but not from creative.

Cannibal23
04-02-2008, 09:42 AM
Creative as a buisness can choose to make as they say " a business decision that only we have the right to make". even if it is a very poor one. unfortunately for them screwing their customers in order to make a few extra bucks clasifies them as one of those big evil corprations.

fortunately however we as consumers have the right to choose not to purchase stock or support any product with a creative branding or that contains electronics designed by them. when companies get to big they foolishly get the feeling that they may do as they like without regard for their customers.

my suggestion to any and all users of creative products that were labeled vista ready and are still not working properly would be to begin organising a class action case against them as well as a false advertising suit if posable. the only way to bitch slap a company is to take the money out of their bank account.

mtekk
04-02-2008, 12:41 PM
The problem with class action lawsuits is that usually only the lawyers win. The only cards I've seen that have said they were "Vista Ready" are the X-Fi Xtreme Audio, which isn't even a true X-Fi (not an EMU20K chipset). Though, with an Xtreme Audio for laptops, I had no problems getting it working on my Vista laptop with Creative's drivers. This doesn't mean what they are doing isn't shady, just most people are over reacting about it.

chaksq
04-02-2008, 12:45 PM
This really upsets me. Creative is attempting to force all buyers to use their top of the line stuff. This locks a lot of buyers out who don't need and won't pay for it. So creative will really lose money in the end. Plus their treatment of people trying to get functionality from the cards they paid for with advertised features not supported is completely uncalled for. If their drivers don't work they should support those who make ones that do work. I am all for a boycott.

I'm not really knowledgeable on soundcards. So I ask who besides Creative can I get a decent soundcard from. I might be needing a low profile card that can support 5.1 or 7.1 surround sound for a carPC I plan on building.

Drum Thumper
04-02-2008, 01:10 PM
Microsoft did the same thing with the release of Vista (crippling a product) and yet no one complained. Rather, computer companies jumped in bed with Microsoft and pushed some extremely buggy software onto the (mostly) unsuspecting public.

This guy is damn lucky he doesn't live in the United States--he'd most likely be in jail right now. He got a proverbial slap on the wrist and he's bitching more than a two year old because he got told no.

I personally don't see what the big fuss is about, and as long as Creative cards do what I want them to do (in linux), I will be continuing my use of them.

chaksq
04-02-2008, 01:46 PM
Creative is trying to force normal buyers to spend more money which is not fair. At least I can still use XP without reduced functionality.

Also in order to use the cards with Linux do you have to make custom drivers? Or use less than great default drivers that don't take advantage of the full features of the cards? Because if either are the case then you might want to take interest in this issue. Because Creative was basically at first trying to require people use their own drivers not custom ones. And the drivers they were making are for full functionality of the cards. Just because you may not use all the advertised features does not mean other people won't use them either.

Drum Thumper
04-02-2008, 02:01 PM
It's called Capitalism. They've got every right to do whatever they choose to do--hell, they could use hot pink boards for all I care. Soundcards are their business is it not? And the number one reason to go into business is to make money, regardless of what some people would love for you to think.

Spawn-Inc
04-02-2008, 02:04 PM
well i will stop buying there stuff, minus there mp3 palyers, though i never use mp3 palyers all that much anymore. i still have my creative Zen micro working and i'm very happy with it. way better than that sheepish ipod.

Drum Thumper
04-02-2008, 02:08 PM
And that is your choice as well.

On a somewhat related note, I have heard nothing but great things about the Turtle Beach brand of soundcards. However, I do not know for sure if they make a low-profile card or not. Newegg doesn't have one listed...

Cannibal23
04-02-2008, 03:05 PM
yep its called capitalism, as our friend Drumthumper pointed out. everyone is out to make a buck even if sometimes you have to throw your ethics out the window. someone else on here pointed out that microsoft was doing the same thing with vista but nobody complained. Plenty of computer people complained i know i sure did. problem is alot of people that arent computer savvy dont care or dont understand whats going on wich is why this kind of thing usually slips by.

i understand that companies are out to make money. thats just buisness, its when they are doing so by being slimey and underhanded that people should take note and not allow it. if people just say.. oh well whatever i'll still buy their stuff it says that this is a market of consumers that will allow that. it takes the market control out of the consumers hands and puts it in corperate hands. this is a very bad idea because it allows companies to just do whatever they want with no responsability to its clients. a companies goal is supposed to be to make money and make their customer base happy.

mtekk
04-02-2008, 05:31 PM
This guy is damn lucky he doesn't live in the United States--he'd most likely be in jail right now. He got a proverbial slap on the wrist and he's bitching more than a two year old because he got told no.


The funny thing is that the Daniel_K guy has been very understanding, and cooperative with this, as far as I can tell. It's the Diggers that have gone bat $%&* crazy over this.

jdbnsn
04-02-2008, 06:31 PM
I've been disgusted with Creative for ages now from a support standpoint, this news doesn't make me happy but doesn't shock me either. I'm not entirely sure I agree with statements like "the number one reason to go into business is to make money" however. Business is very much about financial success, but it often starts with a love for something else (whether it's writing software, making buggy whips, finding creative methods of moving un-cut cocaine into the U.S., or building soundcards). If there is no solid product of service under the business then it's not nearly as apt for longevity. Corporations are another story altogether (a bit of a crime against the proletariats in my eyes), managers or board members are legally bound to make decisions which stand to maximize stockholder's investment returns or they are guilty of committing a form of fraud against the stockholder. So for example, in the cocaine running business, you as a corporate coke runner have a legal obligation to make each gram of your sweet nose candy as valuable as possible or Pablo Escobar comes to your house and sings you a lullaby. So you cut it with powdered milk, cook it into crack, whatever you can to make each gram bring back the most money for your stockholders (the Columbian crime syndicates). But the diligent coke retailer must not push it too far by cutting his stockholders products down to nose garbage to the point that the customers stop buying his products and goes elsewhere (and if there is no alternative, there is nothing to protect Johnny and Sally Crackpipe from being taken advantage of and the gov declares it a monopoly, dividing the Columbian trade into South American, South East Vietnamese, and Middle Eastern import services).
In my eyes, the nature of business is to negotiate a fair exchange for both parties, the nature of marketing and ad agencies is to try to negotiate an unfair exchange or increase the frequency of exchanges, the nature of incorporation is to protect the rich from becoming poor and making it legal to squeeze blood from a turnip.

crenn
04-02-2008, 06:42 PM
Before anyone points fingers at vista's release, can I point out that the only problem vista had at the start was lack of drivers from manufacturers? Yes there were other problems, but most of the problems were the lack of drivers. Vista is not a bad operating system, once I get enough cash to upgrade my GPU, I'll be upgrading my system permanently to vista.

Omega
04-02-2008, 06:47 PM
Yes it sucks, but I don't think this is a reason to run off and replace everything creative that you own. If It's already bricked, though, then it's fine but really, don't waste the money.

Oh, and that does suck. But hey, they're allowed to.

Luke122
04-02-2008, 06:50 PM
Before anyone points fingers at vista's release, can I point out that the only problem vista had at the start was lack of drivers from manufacturers? Yes there were other problems, but most of the problems were the lack of drivers. Vista is not a bad operating system, once I get enough cash to upgrade my GPU, I'll be upgrading my system permanently to vista.

I second that.. despite my apparent hate of Vista, it's more frustration at lack of support for legacy hardware/software that is holding me back.

Once support comes, or the legacy is obsolete, I'll be in Vistaland too.

crenn
04-02-2008, 06:57 PM
The thing is, majority of newer hardware has full Vista support. I know my desktop system runs Vista fine, I haven't taken the install off (I haven't used it as much though)

Mach
04-02-2008, 08:17 PM
If you read through the thread, the reason that Creative cracked down on the guy was that he asked for money to continue to enable the new creative software for other manufacturer's cards.


My last ALchemy release (1.00.08) was complately unlocked and could be used with any sound device from any vendor.

oRly? WTF did he think was going to happen?

Could Creative have handled support for their products better? Not sure what's involved in Vista testing but I'd bet money that Daniel_K did not test his "mods" at the same level Creative is required to test for Vista certification.

They certainly could have handled the PR better but meh, welcome to Web 2.0 where its shoot first and ask questions later. Here's the original text of the response from Creative. All fairly reasonable.


We are aware that you have been assisting owners of our Creative sound cards for some time now, by providing unofficial driver packages for Vista that deliver more of the original functionality that was found in the equivalent XP packages for those sound cards. In principle we don't have a problem with you helping users in this way, so long as they understand that any driver packages you supply are not supported by Creative. Where we do have a problem is when technology and IP owned by Creative or other companies that Creative has licensed from, are made to run on other products for which they are not intended. We took action to remove your thread because, like you, Creative and its technology partners think it is only fair to be compensated for goods and services. The difference in this case is that we own the rights to the materials that you are distributing. By enabling our technology and IP to run on sound cards for which it was not originally offered or intended, you are in effect, stealing our goods. When you solicit donations for providing packages like this, you are profiting from something that you do not own. If we choose to develop and provide host-based processing features with certain sound cards and not others, that is a business decision that only we have the right to make.

Although you say you have discontinued your practice of distributing unauthorized software packages for Creative sound cards we have seen evidence of them elsewhere along with donation requests from you. We also note in a recent post of yours on these forums, that you appear to be contemplating the release of further packages. To be clear, we are asking you to respect our legal rights in this matter and cease all further unauthorized distribution of our technology and IP. In addition we request that you observe our forum rules and respect our right to enforce those rules. If you are in any doubt as to what we would consider unacceptable then please request clarification through one of our forum moderators before posting.

xRyokenx
04-02-2008, 09:39 PM
From what they said it's like they said they don't mind him helping users, but they aren't happy with him making it so their products run on Vista... you'd think they would want their stuff to work with Vista, as soon as XP is entirely phased out then there goes the market...

crenn
04-02-2008, 09:46 PM
The market isn't 100% dead, take a look at the Auzentech Drivers. They are custom, not creative.

chaksq
04-02-2008, 10:09 PM
From what they said it's like they said they don't mind him helping users, but they aren't happy with him making it so their products run on Vista... you'd think they would want their stuff to work with Vista, as soon as XP is entirely phased out then there goes the market...They want their X-Fi cards to work on Vista, not their cheaper cards, that way people are forced to buy the more expensive cards that may be more than most people need. Hence the main point of this topic.

xRyokenx
04-02-2008, 10:54 PM
They want their X-Fi cards to work on Vista, not their cheaper cards, that way people are forced to buy the more expensive cards that may be more than most people need. Hence the main point of this topic.

Ahh, okay. Must've gotten confused somewhere.

But don't most people buy Dells and other prebuilts like that? In that case most people wouldn't even need to buy them. And PC builders can get other brands as we know better. What a dumbassed decision. :down::rolleyes:

Tech-Daddy
04-02-2008, 11:09 PM
You guys remember the Audigy cards? The Live! sound cards?

Would you be pissed if your perfectly functioning card suddenly stopped working because you upgraded your OS? And then found out, the OS upgrade did not cause the loss inf functionality... but the friggen manufacturer decided *for you* that your card was "too old" and that they were going to make you think you needed a new card? WHEN YOU DID NOT NEED ONE TO BEGIN WITH!??!?

BS... plain and simple. To *purposefully* cripple a purchased piece of hardware that if functioning perfectly.... in the hopes of fooling the customer into thinking that they must replace it with a newer piece of hardware to make it *work with the new OS* is such a line of crap... I honestly cannot see where capitalism plays into this.

You are willfully and purposefully deceiving end users and maliciously altering their functionality to create a false sense of need.

Period.

It is indefensible... it is a lie.... and I will not support *any* company that treats it's customer base like that.

Oh, and the donations? He made, over the course of 22k downloads of his software... a whopping $149. Not even enough to by an X-Fi card in Brazil (which is why he was taking donations so that he could continue his development).

Wooo... hold on. He was making too much money! Damn, somebody call the cops on him!
....
whatever....

Drum Thumper
04-03-2008, 03:52 AM
It is indefensible... it is a lie.... and I will not support *any* company that treats it's customer base like that.


Two questions: any of the supermarkets in your area have loyalty cards? Do you shop at those stores?

Yes, a similar yet slightly different tangent of a take on this. You have a card, you get lower prices on some items. If you don't, you pay more. Why? So whatever company this is can track what you buy. They claim it's for canvassing their market to bring you better deals. However; prices tend to inflate...the ol' "mark it up to mark it down" scheme.

Never mind the fact that these so called loyalty cards infringe on your Fourth Amendment rights.

A free people does not show identity to buy a loaf of bread.

All right, now that I got that off my chest:

TD, you make very valid points. I can see an 'average' user being royally pissed that their cards don't work due to a so called 'upgrade'. I also agree with you on nearly every point you make. Lets face it though--while we (as in this community) were all 'average' users at one point in time, it's safe to say we're not anymore. A large portion of problems are child's play to us.

And honestly, if I was to build a Vista machine, it'd have top of the line everything.

As for the donations, that's why he got nailed. While his heart was in the right place, I'm sure that by taking those donations, he committed copyright infringement.

We see it as "purposely" crippling otherwise fine hardware, due to the fact that we are on the outside looking in. To the outsider, yes, that is exactly what it looks like. But what do we NOT know?

How is this any different than the sheep who bought the Iphone the day it came out, only to see the price drop a few months down the road?

It may seem that I'm defending Creative. Yes and no. I will not make a final decision either way until all the cards are on the table.

Tech-Daddy
04-04-2008, 01:55 AM
I'm sorry DT...

Then you need to shop at a different store, because I get *great* coupons that are customized for my shopping habits, on the brands that I buy. I also get discounted gas because of said 4th amendment encroaching loyalty card. But what in the hell has that got to do with the malicious intent of a company to falsify the working of it's hardware?

With a loyalty card, you can choose. You can choose to use it and pay lower prices and loose a bit of your privacy for the sake of saving money. You can choose to shop there without the card, shop in disguise, and pay some of the high prices, or you can choose to go shop elsewhere to get the same product or service. Choice is the key.

Creative was making that "choice" for the end user. We did not have a "choice" in the land of Creative until these modded drivers came out. Our only "choice" (which was an illusion put forth by Creative) was to upgrade the hardware to get what we wanted. To get what "should have been working, but was not"....

I'm sorry, but the 4th amendment and loyalty cards is a huge stretch... considering the 4th is primarily about search and seizure, and tickles around electronic surveillance. If you are classing usage of a loyalty card as electronic surveillance, I think that goes against the spirit of the statement

" The right of the people to be secure in their persons, houses, papers, and effects, against unreasonable searches and seizures, shall not be violated, and no Warrants shall issue, but upon probable cause, supported by Oath or affirmation, and particularly describing the place to be searched, and the persons or things to be seized."

My shopping habits can be harvested by anyone. And they could spend even more money tracking my purchasing habits which *would* warrant interpretation of the 4th, specifically unreasonable searches into my financial property.

But by having the card, I am giving them permission to watch what I purchase for the lure of better prices on food and gas? Will they use it for targeted advertising, yes. Will they use it for market research, yes. Do I care... no. I have a certain expectation of the card's usage and so long as that expectation and benefit continue, then I will keep using hte card.

But by having a "Creative" sound card, I was given a list of benefits for having the card. A card that I purchased. Then "Creative" neutered my card in front of me by crippling the drives... for no other reason than to drive the purchase of additional hardware that was not needed to begin with, because the lack of functionality was artificially induced.

The boy 4rm oz
04-04-2008, 03:34 AM
This coming from a company as big as Creative I am disgusted. I don't own any creative products and probably never will now. I was looking at getting a sound card but if I do now I will be definitely getting one of those Azuntek (bad spelling I know) ones. I was also looking at their speakers but now I think I will stick with Logitech and Altec Lansing.

Drum Thumper
04-04-2008, 03:57 AM
First off, yes it was a bit of a rant on my part regarding loyalty cards. I'm employed by a grocery chain whose corporate management swore up and down that loyalty cards would never be a factor. Our old slogan was "Club Card Savings Without The Card."

The Fourth deals with illegal search and seizure. The loyalty card comparison deals with the former, not the latter.

Oh, and those savings on gas? They're in place because the grocery stores that have attached gas stations can afford those losses. When the gas side goes in the red, any of the other in-store departments can easily cover those losses and still turn a profit.

And I would love to be able to shop at a different store. But if I do that, I'm hurting myself, since that money (however little it is) doesn't get funneled back into my paycheck when I shop the competition.

Consider this scenario: You use your loyalty card, you pay by check. Now the grocery store not only has your assigned loyalty card number, but they now have your bank routing number and your account number. It doesn't take much coding to link those two together in what I call the 'back end' operations. Do they do this? Some chains have in the past--and surprise! Tidyman's is no longer in existence. They even offered to directly debit your checking account just by swiping your loyalty card at one point in time. Mismanagement in this area and across the company as a whole is what destroyed them.

Anyways, enough of the derailment. Lets get back on track.

TBH, this thread was the first I had heard about this. I've spent the last few days going over the link you posted to creative's forum--lots of hostility there, and rightly so. I'm on the outside looking in--my main machine runs XP, my laptop runs Vista (and it's horrid in my book), and my next build for my main machine will undoubtedly be *nix based. Why? Honestly, my computing habits have changed. I'm a reformed Warcraft addict. Now, my computing time is spent in other areas that are most definitely not game related in any way. So, do I really need to worry about Creative cards? Not really, on board sound works just fine, especially since I use headphones a large portion of the time. And yes, I know I have a Creative card in my jukebox build. And it is (to quote Blizzard) "Working as Intended". Had I read this thread before I bought the card...well, I might have gotten the Turtle Beach card instead.

I honestly think this whole thing can be summed up by this: Yes, legally, Creative had every right to do what they did. But where does it stand morally?

chaksq
04-04-2008, 10:50 AM
I honestly think this whole thing can be summed up by this: Yes, legally, Creative had every right to do what they did. But where does it stand morally?
A very good question. I see this as a problem with Capitalism itself. As an economic system, capitalism can only function through self serving means. Someone must always take advantage of someone else in order for capitalism to succeed and to succeed in capitalism. Creative used to make great products, in fact i still have my old original SoundBlaster 16 somewhere, but due to capitalism they essentially have to be greedy to survive and therefore have to undercut their customers.

crenn
04-06-2008, 08:10 AM
And the plot thickens!

http://forums.creative.com/creativelabs/board/message?board.id=Vista&thread.id=31250

Crimson Sky
04-06-2008, 09:10 AM
As for me, all Creative product will be removed from my house. X-Fi, speakers, everything...

-=TD

Cool! I'll take them ;)

Xpirate
04-06-2008, 09:59 AM
From what I read in the articles, Creative did not really cripple their products. They were just too lazy to provide updated Vista drivers, so they told the public that their old products were not compatible with Vista.

Then they got mad at this guy for proving that their old products really are Vista compatible.

J-Roc
04-06-2008, 07:37 PM
There are a lot of responces to this and i dont have the time to read through them all.

Companies have been doing this sort of thing for years. Intel does it. Celerons are P4 chips with some options disabled. Graphics cards are the exact same. It seems fitting that sound cards would disable some options to make diffrent class products.

Would you boycot intel if you found out that your celeron processor wasnt vista compatible but if it had all its options enabled like a P4 that it would be?

This is all more to the fact that they created hype about the whole thing by deleting the dudes posts off the site.

Tech-Daddy
04-06-2008, 10:21 PM
From what I read in the articles, Creative did not really cripple their products. They were just too lazy to provide updated Vista drivers, so they told the public that their old products were not compatible with Vista.

Then they got mad at this guy for proving that their old products really are Vista compatible.

The guy was working on their drivers. He was able to point out where Creative inserted bugs into the drivers to make them not work. He was able to point out where Creative put their OS validation, whereby, if you were running on Vista, the portions of the software would not work....

There were other users that used the sound card drivers from XP, and had them installed on their Vista machines, and the cards worked fully. It was the new "Vista Compatible" drivers that broke their stuff. And it was "broken" on purpose.

Tech-Daddy
04-06-2008, 10:26 PM
There are a lot of responces to this and i dont have the time to read through them all.

Companies have been doing this sort of thing for years. Intel does it. Celerons are P4 chips with some options disabled. Graphics cards are the exact same. It seems fitting that sound cards would disable some options to make diffrent class products.

Would you boycot intel if you found out that your celeron processor wasnt vista compatible but if it had all its options enabled like a P4 that it would be?

This is all more to the fact that they created hype about the whole thing by deleting the dudes posts off the site.

Your logic is flawed in that, when you buy a Celeron, you know you are buying a Celeron.

A better comparison would be:

"Would you be pissed if you bought a Q6600, only to have 2 of your CPU's removed/disabled by Intel because they wanted you to upgrade for that new OS?"

That, is *precisely* what happened here. People bought a premium sound card a few years back, a sound card that worked without issue... *until* they installed it into Vista, and Creative crippled the card because they wanted the users to upgrade.

That is what we are talking about here.

Crimson... don't tempt me! ;)

Drum Thumper
04-07-2008, 03:28 AM
"Would you be pissed if you bought a Q6600, only to have 2 of your CPU's removed/disabled by Intel because they wanted you to upgrade for that new OS?"


And then there's the flip side of the coin with AMD's Tri-core Phenoms, which may or may not be quads with a defective core. They've taken a bit of heat from just mentioning that they are going to offer these chips. Personally, if the price was right, hell yes I would buy one.

The biggest difference here? You know up front you're getting three cores.

vastonecat
04-07-2008, 05:37 AM
A very good question. I see this as a problem with Capitalism itself. As an economic system, capitalism can only function through self serving means. Someone must always take advantage of someone else in order for capitalism to succeed and to succeed in capitalism. Creative used to make great products, in fact i still have my old original SoundBlaster 16 somewhere, but due to capitalism they essentially have to be greedy to survive and therefore have to undercut their customers.

Ahh yess but take a look at what happens to a company when they lose sight of thier own decency and go for just the money. they fold or get shut down like Enron, or Bear Sterns, or any number of others in the past few years. The Main Factor in thier demise? Greed, uninhibited greed. If these corproations would treat people with decency and not try to squeeze us like lemons then they would survive even thrive much longer than they do. Yes there are large corporations that try to squeeze yet they still thrive, but are they deceiving us in a manner like Creative? Probably not, merely taking advantage of a lack of competition. Which I can live with a lot more than Crippling the product after purchase.

Tech-Daddy
04-07-2008, 10:40 AM
And then there's the flip side of the coin with AMD's Tri-core Phenoms, which may or may not be quads with a defective core. They've taken a bit of heat from just mentioning that they are going to offer these chips. Personally, if the price was right, hell yes I would buy one.

The biggest difference here? You know up front you're getting three cores.

Depending on pricing, these triple cores could be a nice boon for AMD.

"How can we make money off of these yields where we are only getting 3 of the 4 cores?"

- "Make a new market, and let the public decide..."

It costs them nothing right now, as it is not a new product, only an "incomplete" product that is sold as such, just as you said.
.....

But it is still *not* compariable to what Creative is doing.... :)
though intriguing none the less!

Xpirate
04-08-2008, 09:27 PM
The guy was working on their drivers. He was able to point out where Creative inserted bugs into the drivers to make them not work. He was able to point out where Creative put their OS validation, whereby, if you were running on Vista, the portions of the software would not work....

There were other users that used the sound card drivers from XP, and had them installed on their Vista machines, and the cards worked fully. It was the new "Vista Compatible" drivers that broke their stuff. And it was "broken" on purpose.

I guess I did not read enough. I used to be impressed with Creative Labs. I have not purchased a sound card in quite a while because on-board sound is usually good enough for me.

J-Roc
04-09-2008, 09:11 AM
That, is *precisely* what happened here. People bought a premium sound card a few years back, a sound card that worked without issue... *until* they installed it into Vista, and Creative crippled the card because they wanted the users to upgrade.




Thats not exactly what happened though. All cards including there premium x-fi's didnt work properly either. I doupt it was so intentional like its been made out to be. Allthough, if i was running the company i wouldnt want people to know that a 10yr old !Live 24 card that can be bought for $30 new was a x-fi card once the "crystalizer" was enabled.

The boy 4rm oz
04-09-2008, 09:19 AM
True true. Some one was going to find out sooner or later. We are modders for christ's sake, if it doesn't work we find our own ways around the problems.

Quakken
04-09-2008, 01:40 PM
It's their fault, they are doing this to themselves.

Let's face it though, you can pretty much buy one sound card, and if you don't need to go to 5.1 or something and you aren't looking for ways to throw away your money, you can stick with that same pci card for years. Until I got my M-audio pro box, I was using a ten year old audigy from an old computer we had (the on board was crackly). It worked perfectly.

In their defense, they had to find some way to get users to buy new cards. But this isn't the correct way to do it, of course. This is probably the worst way, but aside from making some amazing new technology what other choice did they have? Sure, it's mean but it's either this or continually lose profits and go belly up (or find some other way to get people to buy new products.)