store bought LED string...

[blk03MitsuES]

i remember seen somebody in here buying some led strings cheap and using it for the mod he/she was doing....
I got a string of 40 orange leds from halloween for 2 bucks. Taking a closer look at the string got me a little confused. first i tried looking for a little AC to DC converter but all i saw was a resistor. so i googled for about half an hour or so. noticed there were "ac led circuits" and such but they failed to mentioned if the LEDs were ac or dc. so do leds use either/or ac/dc? then i took a closer look at the resistor which is bigger than what i've seen before and i noticed something was odd. from the plug it goes straight to the end of the string to the led in the end then to every other led making it back to the resistor. then from the resistor to one led then to the plug. i though resistors had to be first, before the current/power went to the leds. so i thought well screw it i'll just take it a part and make a few sets of leds to use on a future mod and just look for the resistor. then i noticed i only had the voltage and watts but not the amps to plug into the led calculator...

"only replace with 1.9 Volt 0.038 Watt...."

anybody want to clear things up or just point me where to read? thanks!

[nevermind1534]

You can run regular LEDs off of AC power, but they will flash on and off rapidly. I don't own any of these, so I couldn't tell you how yours work.

[Xpirate]

I doubt that the LEDs will flash on AC power because it switches polarity at 60 Hz. So if it does flash, your eye probably will not even notice it.

[nevermind1534]

true. You may notice it if it's in your peripheral vision, though. And, unlike regular incandescent bulbs, they would be off half of the time, where your regular bulb won't care about polarity.

[blk03MitsuES]

ok so the DC/AC is out of the way.... how do i find out the mA for the leds? can i base it out of the ".038 watts"

Watts = Volts x Amps

or in my case Amps= watts/volts

i already tried dividing .038 by both 12 and 110 and i get some long crazy number so i think i'm doing something wrong....

then i went back to the led calculator and it said


If you have good specs from your supplier, you'll want to enter the typical forward current in milliamps here. For 3mm and 5mm LEDs, this is usually 20 mA or close to it. A few special, high-power LEDs exist, but they always come with specs. So if you need to guess, use 20 here.

so... if V = I*R

so if i use 6 of the 1.9V leds then i'm left with .6V=20*R which R=.03 but then the led calculator said R=33?!?!?!? so before coming back here and making a fool out of myself cus i might be misunderstanding some stuff i went back to my old thread and found...



....The best way to calculate what resistor you need (I'd always put one in) is to use ohm's law:
V = I*R

For 12v your V = 12v, now we can adjust this by subtracting the forward activation voltage off of 12v. Assuming a very conservative 1v, you could place 12 diodes is series, or do something reasonable and use 4, that would drop your voltage to 8v. Thus ohm's law becomes:
8v = I * R

Now for I we will set that equal to the Imax of the diode, in this case 30mA which is .03A. Thus the equality becomes:

8v = .03A * R

Solving for R yields 267 Ohms of resistance.


so going back to .6v=.02A* R i still get 30ohms for R and not 33. what am i doing wrong?

so i took MTEKK's advise and use 1 instead of 1.9 so 6v=.02a*r i get 300 led calculator gets 330 ohms

so should i use a 33 or 330 ohm resistor?

so if the 33 ohm is right, then radioshack has a pack of 5 for a buck which i dont think it's that bad BUT it says "1/2W" while the led calculator said the "wizard thinks 1/4W resistors are fine for your application" so using 1/2w instead of 1/4 going to have any negative consequences?

if i go with the 330 ohm one the radioshack does have them at 1/4w... I knew i should have paid more attention to my electronics teacher:neutral:

[crazybillybob]

Lets see if we can Clear the water.

First we'll Look your watt=IxV Issue, I=P/V or I=0.038/12 => I= .3mA To low to light even a standard LED. By playing with the Math These LEDs were most likely Wire to a 3V or 2V source (This assuming that they were all wire in parallel Ie. Plug-Resistor -LED-Plug)

Mekk's Statement is correct, as the least Voltage the LEDs would Drop is 1V ea.

First lets find the Resistor for 6 LEDS and see how that works. so supply is 12V Forward current is 20mA voltage drop is 1V, You have 12-6=6 So Ohm's law says R=E/I that means R=6/.02 or R=300 A 300 Ohm Resistor isn't common (Some thing the LED Calc takes into account) and most Resistors (at Radio shack) are 5% which mean they can be high or lower then rated be 5% so the 330 is a good choice.
This is the conservative method, your LEDs Should light and have a long life, but not be quite as bright (some times you can't tell the difference in brightness between this method and the over current method).

Over current method, Will shorten the life of the LED!
You start by assuming the LEDS drop more Voltage. In this case we'll use the 1.9V number (1.5V would be more industry standard but we like challenges here at TBCS :) )
(voltage Dropped =Vd) Vd=6x1.9 Vd=11.4. Voltage supplied =12 so 12-11.4=.6 so in our Ohm's law formula R=E/I or R=.6/.02 R=30 (we match you had this far). Now based on experience 33 ohms is a little low, Don't get me wrong, You'll have some Bright LEDS for about 12 secs then there dead. If you have some extras and want to test it Go for it, for me Trying things is the best way to learn! In this case I'd go with a 100 or a 150 Ohm Resistor.


If your tight on parts Go with the 330.
If you must have a brighter LED or want to test it out a 100 ohm or a 150 ohm should work great for about 100 to 1000 hours (most LEDS are rated at 10,000 hours so the over current really does shorten the life of the LED).


As for the 1/2W versus the 1/4W... It's always best to go bigger. They can handle more heat so if your calculations are off or if something is out of tolerance more then expected, or there is a voltage spike your covered.
For a hand full of LEDs the 1/4W is the best beat, but if you can't get there is no issue with picking up a bigger size.

Now that I've muddy the water even more I'll get off my soap box :)
If you have any questions about what I've posted please let me know...I'll see if we can straighten them out.


CrazyBillyBob

[xmastree]

"only replace with 1.9 Volt 0.038 Watt...."

They're probably not LEDs. :(

LEDs shouldn't ever need replacing so why mention the spec?

I'll bet they're just normal filament bulbs.

[blk03MitsuES]

They're probably not LEDs. :(

LEDs shouldn't ever need replacing so why mention the spec?

I'll bet they're just normal filament bulbs.

if they're the average filament bulbs then i'd have the right to sue them for saying LED in about 8 different places between the box and little sheet of paper :)

can't find the thread right but on it you made it clear about the placement of the resistor. so thanks for your knowledge even thou it was in a different thread!

edit*

by the way, the instructions that mentioned how to replace the LEDs and what not also stated that you shouldn't use the lights on a daily basis for periods longer than 3 months....

[xmastree]

if they're the average filament bulbs then i'd have the right to sue them for saying LED in about 8 different places between the box and little sheet of paper :)Fair enough. I've been fooled before, that's what made me think of it.

[blk03MitsuES]

....
First lets find the Resistor for 6 LEDS and see how that works. so supply is 12V Forward current is 20mA voltage drop is 1V, You have 12-6=6 So Ohm's law says R=E/I that means R=6/.02 or R=300 A 300 Ohm Resistor isn't common (Some thing the LED Calc takes into account) and most Resistors (at Radio shack) are 5% which mean they can be high or lower then rated be 5% so the 330 is a good choice.
This is the conservative method, your LEDs Should light and have a long life, but not be quite as bright (some times you can't tell the difference in brightness between this method and the over current method).

Now that I've muddy the water even more I'll get off my soap box :)
If you have any questions about what I've posted please let me know...I'll see if we can straighten them out.


CrazyBillyBob

i'm gonna go with the 330ohm way. i'm not trying to make sunshine inside the pc, just lighting it up a bit, so if dimmer is gonna give me longer life then thats good enough for me. Thanks to you too for making things clear

[Omega]

i'm gonna go with the 330ohm way. i'm not trying to make sunshine inside the pc, just lighting it up a bit, so if dimmer is gonna give me longer life then thats good enough for me. Thanks to you too for making things clear

The path of higher resistance is safer anyways. Go with 330ohm. If they're too bright, step up the resistor to a 400 or a 500ohm resistor. If they're too dim, drop to 300 or 250ohms. Try not to drop too low, as if you give the LED too much current it'll go kaput.

Also, lifetime is a non-issue, as most LED's run for upwards of 20,000hrs at their designed specs. Now keep in mind there's 8,544 hours in a year and chances are you turn you computer off at least occassionally, so at normal specs that's 2+ years before replacing them.

Does the packaging or LED specs anywhere say it's mcd rating? That'll give you a good idea of it's brightness.

[xmastree]

Now keep in mind there's 8,544 hours in a year

I know that US gallons are smaller than proper ones, but I never knew your years are shorter too... :rolleyes:

[crazybillybob]

I know that US gallons are smaller than proper ones, but I never knew your years are shorter too... :rolleyes:

I'm in the US (mind you I do live in the woods, under a rock with snow on it!)
but here a year has at least 8760 hours in it. Years like this one have 8784 hours in them :) here in the back woods we call those leap years, they come round every 4 years, so they shouldn't effect your fancy math... Omega do you work for one of those investment banks or big insurance firms?:D

[blk03MitsuES]

i did use the 330 ohm and i can't tell a difference in lighting... so i soldered the resistor to the first led and cable then i went to test continuity and the little guy lighted up. so i went to solder the rest of the leds and cables. when i got done i went back to test it, and nothing happened :? so i pulled out a 9v battery and nothing. after a triple check of the + to - connections, i figured i was just gonna stick it into the molex connector to see what would happen. and sure enough the 6 leds lighted up :banana:

[crazybillybob]

Glad to hear that Everything worked out for you!

Now, LEDS are your friends, You'll be hooked, everything is going to glow around you! :D

This is not a bad thing ^



CrazyBillyBob

[Omega]

er, I can't math when I'm tired.

Still, it's between 8 and 9k hours.

[blk03MitsuES]

Glad to hear that Everything worked out for you!

Now, LEDS are your friends, You'll be hooked, everything is going to glow around you! :D

This is not a bad thing ^



CrazyBillyBob

actually everything used to glow since way back...

my pc room
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tXaAT4Aa2mk
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tXaAT4Aa2mk

my car
http://www.sanctumrenderings.com/timeline/64.JPG

... but now i'm looking for a way to make the leds fade in and out lol already found a couple of tutorials using a 555timer and cap. but i got to find out how to make it work from 12v instead of 9v... just to get off the subject a little bit...
in essence, the 555 timer lets the cap discharge at specific time intervals based on the resistors on the pins... can i get away without using the 555 and simply use the capacitor to discharge randomly? btw this is what i was looking at http://www.geocities.com/SiliconValley/2072/proj2.htm the other i saw used the same things but had less explanations

[blk03MitsuES]

i'm at it again, this time with a 5v supply


First lets find the Resistor for 6 LEDS and see how that works. so supply is 12V Forward current is 20mA voltage drop is 1V, You have 12-6=6 So Ohm's law says R=E/I that means R=6/.02 or R=300 A 300 Ohm Resistor isn't common (Some thing the LED Calc takes into account) and most Resistors (at Radio shack) are 5% which mean they can be high or lower then rated be 5% so the 330 is a good choice.

so going back to the calculation i noticed something...

5v-5v drop(1v x 5 leds)=0????
R=E/I or R=0/.20
that just dont work out. but the led calculator suggested to use 1 ohm resistor for the 5 leds. the 5v supply is from the motherboards usb pins. so am i ok using 5 leds without a resistor? if i needed a resistor, how much difference would a 10ohm resistor due over the 1ohm? local radioshack only has 10ohm and no 1ohm... thanks again guys

[xmastree]

You always need a resistor with a LED.
What voltage are your LED's? 1V sounds too low, 1.5V is normal for Red. Higher for other colours.
If you're using six then I would use three strings of two.

In other words:

+5V --w-->|-->|-- 0V
+5V --w-->|-->|-- 0V
+5V --w-->|-->|-- 0V

[slaveofconvention]

You always need a resistor with a LED.

Erm, no. I have packs of 5v Blue LED's at home which I usually wire into PC's by wiring them direct to the Red/Ground cables from the PSU molex connectors - you DO always need a resistor for lower voltage LED's though...

[xmastree]

Erm, no. I have packs of 5v Blue LED's at home which I usually wire into PC's by wiring them direct to the Red/Ground cables from the PSU molex connectors

I'll bet they have a built-in resistor...

[slaveofconvention]

Not that I can see... Admittedly, this is a 4.5v supply, but still hugely enough to blow a 1 or 1.5v led....

http://www.slaveofconvention.com/imagestore/Moddin/5v-led.JPG

[xmastree]

Nice picture, it's always hard to photograph a light source. I'd be interested to see how much current that's drawing. Better still, hook it up to the 5V in the computer and measure it.

Anyway, a blue LED will never be 1.5V, IIRC only red ones are that low.

As for 5V LED's...
http://led.linear1.org/myth-of-the-5-volt-led/
In particular, this paragraph:

The specs on LEDs often include a reverse voltage spec, and 5V is not an uncommon value to see for this. But this is not an operating voltage, this is the maximum reverse bias voltage you can apply before the LED fails. This sort of confusion accounts for most of the “sightings” of 5V LEDs in the wild.

[slaveofconvention]

Does 17mA sound reasonable? I really don't know what I'm doing with a multimeter other than to test continuity but with it set at the 20m mark on the A section the reading hovers between 16.7 and 17 when wired in series with the LED - ie Battery - Multimeter - LED - Battery...

[xmastree]

Does 17mA sound reasonable?
Sounds fine. Is that from the batteries or the computer PSU?

Might be worth trying both and comparing results.

[slaveofconvention]

Batteries - was a quick 2 min test before I came to work this morning. As a side note - the batteries were pushing out 4.7v total - but I did replace them with brand new ones before I did any of this.

That link you posted - the page is nearly 4 years old I think - may well just be out of date as that LED is definitely handling a forward DC voltage of 4.7 - I'm betting that the information is just old and LED technology, like everything else, has just moved on a bit....

[Mark_Hardware]

I know this is late, but all you need to convert AC current to DC is a rectifier right? A diode...

[xmastree]

I know this is late, but all you need to convert AC current to DC is a rectifier right? A diode...
Well, yes, but if you want smooth DC you'll need a capacitor across the DC.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rectifier#Rectifier_output_smoothing