Big Brother and Little Brother :D

[Crazy Buddhist]

With the unending dilution of civil rights on the internet I have become increasingly concerned at what this means for personal freedom and the right to express oneself.

I already had the unpleasant experience of a powerful interest group trying to force one of my websites off air resulting in me needing to locate that site on a server in Panama (where they have some great laws!).

Next year the British government is going live with a system to monitor all UK residents telephone calls, internet activities and email records and store them in a single database.

As part of this no prepay phones will be allowed in the UK any longer without registration. All phones will be traceable to the owner. I had an imaginary conversation with the government. It went like this:

Government: "So yeah .. you have a right to free speech as long as you tell us what you are saying and we're allowed to keep a fat database on you".

Me: "Go place an aubergine (eggplant) where the sun don't shine you anally retentive bunch of control freaks. That is not free speech. And my rights are my rights not yours to decide".

Government: "We don't like those ideas so we will just spy on you and invade your rights because we can".

Me: "In that case I will place my internet activity where the sun don't shine :D ".

And so the hunt began. First I was introduced to the Goldens VPN service and I made contact with them. Now I'm using one of their systems Cryptocloud (https://www.cryptocloud.com/producttour.php).

The system uses a small java VPN client that sits in your in tray. Click on it to connect and now everything over the internet is routed through their private network and I pop up in Amsterdam with an unidentiifiable IP address.

The Dutch privacy laws are much better than the UK. And these guys will never cough up a client associated with any activity (except child porn and spammers who they hate and will track down and shut down).

Why won't they cough up your details? They can't. Their payment system is not linked to their operational system. It sends untraceable tokens that can not be linked back to the payer. The VPN tunnel is established over a 128 bit HTTPS connection with 1024 bit encryption for exchange of keys and encrypts traffic with 2048 bit encryption - these keys are changed on the fly every twenty minutes. Their server farm keeps NO LOGS of activity. There is not anything to trace.

Skype, MSN, webrowsing can and do all go through the client seamlessly (absolutely all internet traffic goes through the VPN). You can switch between protected and unprotected browsing at the click of a mouse.

Developed by an ecclectic bunch of Dutch folk in typical anarcho-Dutch style of freedomfighting these products offer you a little brother to keep big brother off your back and out of your internet life.

I'm probably switching all my calls to skype and buying a Dutch international skype option. That way my phone calls (already encrypted with Skype) will be further encrypted and not even emanate from the UK for the UK authorities to monitor.

Is there an overhead? Yes. It's a fee paying service of course. I'm finding my bandwidth cut by around 20% and ping times 100ms greater than without using the service so I wouldn't want to game with it. But I'm not a gamer.

Crazy B

[LiTHiUM0XiD3]

and ppl say my conspiracy theories are crazy.... this is the type of stuff ive been talkin bout for years... this.. and censorship... good on ya crazyB...

[calumc]

any1 seen Eagle Eye?
looks like thats wat the world i s heading for :/

[xRyokenx]

If I could afford this I would definitely go for it.

[progbuddy]

Yeah. I can't stand it how people think they can invade other peoples' privacy. The Internet is an open system, but only because not everyone has billions to run their own cabling to their friend's house across the world. The school systems here utilize web proxies to filter about 80% of content, and then log what you do use. It has made doing projects and assignments nearly impossible, because I could never find information while on the school's network.

[xRyokenx]

Peoples' desire to control one another is frustrating at best... just let me do my thing and I'll let you do yours, just don't **** with me and I won't **** with you. *sigh* Things are so ridiculous you'd think it was a bad joke until it hits you that it isn't, in which case you get some massive whiplash.

[luciusad2004]

The direction this is all going saddens me. Im glad to see your protecting your privacy. I always want to start doing stuff like this but never really get around to it.

[Crazy Buddhist]

Well one of the things .... little reported ..... was that on the 8th October (in the middle of the crash no less ????) the United States Government went live on it's domestic spying of US citizens by satellite. This was only covered by two news outlets, the systems have been judged illegal and unconstitutional and ....

... they can now follow your movements within YOUR HOUSE to one meter by following your heat signal in the house from space. That is just one of the abilities of this technology. One of the ones that has been announced in any case.

CB

[luciusad2004]

Well one of the things .... little reported ..... was that on the 8th October (in the middle of the crash no less ????) the United States Government went live on it's domestic spying of US citizens by satellite. This was only covered by two news outlets, the systems have been judged illegal and unconstitutional and ....

... they can now follow your movements within YOUR HOUSE to one meter by following your heat signal in the house from space. That is just one of the abilities of this technology. One of the ones that has been announced in any case.

CB

Well nothing i can do to save myself from that... unless i find someway to dampen the thermal signatures of my house. Don't they make stuff for fighter jets that will reduce the thermal image? oh well... probably to expensive

[xRyokenx]

Heat your attic to 98.6F and have it stay there constantly lol.

[Crazy Buddhist]

Heat your attic to 98.6F and have it stay there constantly lol.

LOOL

or ..

Lead line the roof before lead prices rise ;)

[Crazy Buddhist]

http://www.speedtest.net/result/371039600.png
(http://www.speedtest.net)

Not bad over a VPN. While I was synchronising the 14,000 emails in my mail account by IMAP.

I'm a bit more than 50 miles from Eindhoven :)

[Luke122]

To decrease thermal imaging capability through your ceiling, you could line it with thermal blankets. Thermal imaging has a tough time penetrating metal also, so a tin roof with thermal lining + attic insulation = reasonable protection against sky-spy, AND will help with your energy bills.

Win-win I think.

[nevermind1534]

But metal roofs are loud when it rains. I think they're expensive, too.

[SXRguyinMA]

:stupid:

just throw up the reflective blankets under your insulation then, you should be good :up:

[DaveW]

You're mis-representing this.

This stuff is currently held by the companies in question; currently the police have to make special requests to get access to the information. What the laws coming into force are attempting to change is to make it law for this information to be recorded, and the government want it to be recorded to a databse that they have authority over. A court order would still be required to access it.

The rules concerning PAYG mobiles are a little unorthodox, but considering that PAYG mobiles are increasingly being used to trigger bombs, you can see some of the reasoning behind it.

To clarify; I'm not supporting these changes to the law. I don't think it's a good idea, in fact I think it's appaling that the government are being allowed to gather more data, considering their horrific security reputation in the UK. Data is being lost, abused, and kept far longer than needed. The UK data protection act may as well say "but the gov can do whatever they want" because they sure as hell never seem to actually get punished for any of this. These new laws are frankly a farce, and I'll oppose them every chance I get, but I'll be exact about what they are and why we should oppose or support them.

Something else you should think about: the fact that a large part of the UK DNA database is likely to be ereased soon. (http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/uk/7764069.stm) If you've been swabbed, your DNA will no longer be held on file if you are not charged with a crime. Holding DNA on file does not mean you have a criminal record, and incorrect DNA matches are so unlikely that it's virtually impossible for a false accusation to be formed. It's in cases like this that a DNA database really comes through. (http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-518615/Rapist-soldier-caught-routine-DNA-test-linked-sex-assault.html) Of course, that's just an example; the BBC reported in 2005 that there had been 7990 criminals taken off the streets solely because these samples were NOT destroyed (http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/uk/4463892.stm).

I value freedom as much as the next man, but I'd rather catch a rapist or murderer before they get the chance to hurt someone else. People who oppose the DNA database have the wrong idea about this, that's for sure.

Ah, I'm generally sick of the government's attitude towards computer technology. If they actually had some decent advisors and listened to them, then things like the London Ambulance Disaster (http://www.dcs.gla.ac.uk/~johnson/papers/safecomp_best/) would not occur. Be warned, that's a long read. You might be better looking at the wikipedia article (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/London_Ambulance_Service#1992_CAD_system_failure) instead.

-Dave

[luciusad2004]

I'm not sure how i feel about DNA databases. A DNA database is just a way to identify people, storing chat logs is like peering in to my life. DNA can be used to identify someone AFTER they become a suspect or commit a crime. Logging our Data is a way for them to sift through our daily lives and LOOk for things we MIGHT have done wrong. Thats the difference I see, but i never really looked in to the issue all that hard.

[Crazy Buddhist]

You're mis-representing this.
-Dave

No I'm not. You do not seem to understand the human rights implications.

They want to monitor your car from space under the guise of road pricing. They track your mobile phone and triangulate it. They want all your emails and phone calls and web-browsing in a database.

This all adds up: It can all be used for mapping the topology of social groups and following their actions: Useful in fighting terrorism. Except terrorism is George Orwell's unwinable war and the invention of it is being used to eat away at civil liberties your forebears fought and died for.

What you are forgetting is that the people in government change constantly. Hitler was democratically elected after all. So was George Bush - TWICE !

Maybe the guy at the steering wheel today wants to use this topological social-mapping capability to track terrorists.

Maybe the guy at the steering wheel tomorrow will want to use it to track and control anyone with computing abilities or those who like tea parties.

Government controls and balances have been fought for over a long time. Handing back power to governemt in this way is a recipe for disaster.

Freedoms long sought and fought over have been destroyed almost worldwide in less than a decade. Look at the pussies in the press towing the government line. Have you watched the BBC lately? It's nearly as bad as Fox news now.

With these new technologies we are rapidly heading towards a global police state: i.e Fascism and the free people of the world are letting it happen ...

Because they have believed a bunch of blatant lies about some guy in a cave in Afghanistan wih a PDA planning and implementing the 9/11 attacks and defeating the hundreds of billions the US spends on security? Likely story yeah. the fact the US had several exercises running that day that confused everyone - coincidence? the fact that building seven was without doubt blown up by implanted explosives and this seems very likely to have precipitated the colapse of Towers 1 & 2.

The fact is that 9/11 is totally debunked and was an inside job created to set up the fear and panic needed to fully domesticate the American polulace (successful). And now there is underway the creation of an artificial global panic and depression that will be used as the excuse for taking away MORE of your rights which you have been carefuly programmed to accept as "essential for your safety".

Next step will be RFID chips under the skin ... and if the topology of your social group indicates that you are a dissident, troublemaker, freethinker, anarchist or any other kind of non-programmed human just wait for your RFID chip to be turned off so you can't buy a carrott to eat or a pen to write and complain.

CB

From the article you link. European judges clearly have a better picture of the issues involved than most:


The court found that the police's actions were in violation of Article 8 - the right to respect for private and family life - of the European Convention on Human Rights.

It also said it was "struck by the blanket and indiscriminate nature of the power of retention in England and Wales".

The judges ruled the retention of the men's DNA "failed to strike a fair balance between the competing public and private interests," and that the UK government "had overstepped any acceptable margin of appreciation in this regard".

The court also ruled "the retention in question constituted a disproportionate interference with the applicants' right to respect for private life and could not be regarded as necessary in a democratic society".

[xRyokenx]

I personally love the New Hampshire state motto: "Live Free or Die."

I would rather have my freedom and live without all sorts of crap watching me, even if that means some murderer they're looking for kills me before they find him. Everybody else would still have their freedom even if I were dead. There comes a point where certain things are overkill and need to be toned down, certain people seem to be trying to push it even further past that point. [/thoughts after just waking up]

[DaveW]

No I'm not. You do not seem to understand the human rights implications.

I never said I agreed with it. You're mis-representing the information, what information will be held, how it will be used, and who it will be used by.

Frankly, you're frothing at the mouth.



They want to monitor your car from space under the guise of road pricing. They track your mobile phone and triangulate it. They want all your emails and phone calls and web-browsing in a database.

Who is this magical `they'? What have you done that makes you so special, that this omnipresent group would use such resources to track you, to observe your every move? Of course, you mean the government, don't you.


What you are forgetting is that the people in government change constantly. Hitler was democratically elected after all. So was George Bush - TWICE !

Where did I suggest I had forgotten that? Oh look, the mandatory Hitler reference, followed by a George Bush comparison and a revelation in capitals. Now it's in capitals I see exactly what you're talking about. How could I have been so foolish.



Maybe the guy at the steering wheel today wants to use this topological social-mapping capability to track terrorists.


Please, show me evidence that such a tool exists. As a (good) computer scientist I can tell you that the technology required to automatically create such a mapping does not exist. The closest anyone has come to this is google or TREC (http://trec.nist.gov/), and their best techniques rely on millions of people tagging information themselves.


Government controls and balances have been fought for over a long time. Handing back power to governemt in this way is a recipe for disaster.

Exactly what kind of disaster? I think you're implying that the so-called spying will increase and increase until our every movement is monitored, till everyone is watching someone. Do you really think such a thing is possible?


Because they have believed a bunch of blatant lies about some guy in a cave in Afghanistan wih a PDA planning and implementing the 9/11 attacks and defeating the hundreds of billions the US spends on security? Likely story yeah. the fact the US had several exercises running that day that confused everyone - coincidence? the fact that building seven was without doubt blown up by implanted explosives and this seems very likely to have precipitated the colapse of Towers 1 & 2.

Oh, come on now.


The judges ruled the retention of the men's DNA "failed to strike a fair balance between the competing public and private interests," and that the UK government "had overstepped any acceptable margin of appreciation in this regard".

DNA is useless for anything other than matching samples. Unless you believe that the government will clone you...I wouldn't be surprised if you did, given your stance on the 9/11 attacks. Mainland Europe has Interpol (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Interpol), but of course, European judges know their ****. They're horrified that we would want to keep DNA, when they keep a centralized database of personal information.

Frankly CB, I can't believe your counter-argument. At TBCS, I've seen a great number of intelligent and well thought out debates on a range of subject considering religion, philosophy, politics, human rights, and more. This is the first time I've seen such a discussion descend into wild accusations and paranoia.

This, my friend, is what you sound like. (http://www.thebestpageintheuniverse.net/c.cgi?u=911_morons)

-Dave

[Crazy Buddhist]

Dave



Frankly CB, I can't believe your counter-argument. At TBCS, I've seen a great number of intelligent and well thought out debates on a range of subject considering religion, philosophy, politics, human rights, and more. This is the first time I've seen such a discussion descend into wild accusations and paranoia.


I agree entirely that my post was passionate. It was not an attempt to go in depth into the philosophical and human rights issues concerned with well thought out arguments, merely an effort to point out that civil liberties are under progressive attack and diminution, and that we let them die at our peril.

I would have thought you above replying with pure ad-hominem attacks, aside from a couple of unsupportable statements/factoids:



Please, show me evidence that such a tool exists. As a (good) computer scientist I can tell you that the technology required to automatically create such a mapping does not exist.


No you can not. You are stating something you can not support. However "good" you might be you don't actually know everything.


Please, show me evidence that such a tool exists

From Social Network Topology Mapping (http://www.dailynetworkmonitor.com/2008/01/10/social-network-topology-mapping/):


Prof. Peter Gloor showed off a tool that takes input from email records or online communities to create maps of social or business interactions, and Chandrika Samarth showed a real-life case study of how such mapping can lead to real process improvements in a real workplace, in this case a hospital. Characteristics like “betweenness,” “connectedness” and “sharing” are important attributes of social network nodes, also known as people. The charts show the communication between people as lines of length and thickness corresponding to the frequency and intensity of the interaction. Interesting data visualization, indeedSoftware for Social Network Analysis & Organizational Network Analysis
(http://www.orgnet.com/inflow3.html)

I haven't even bothered really researching this. That's enough to show you were mistaken - and you can be very sure they (yes the Government) have spent more money developing tools for this than any commercial organisation and that little or no information about such will be in the public domain.


Mainland Europe has Interpol (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Interpol),


INTERPOL is the world’s largest international police organization, with 187 member countries (http://www.interpol.int/Public/ICPO/Members/default.asp). It exists to help create a safer world by supporting law enforcement agencies worldwide to combat crime.

A Afghanistan | Albania | Algeria | Andorra | Angola | Antigua & Barbuda | Argentina | Armenia | Aruba | Australia | Austria | Azerbaijan B Bahamas | Bahrain | Bangladesh | Barbados | Belarus | Belgium | Belize | Benin | Bhutan | Bolivia | Bosnia and Herzegovina | Botswana | Brazil | Brunei | Bulgaria | Burkina - Faso | Burundi C Cambodia | Cameroon | Canada | Cape Verde | Central African Republic | Chad | Chile | China | Colombia | Comoros | Congo | Congo (Democratic Rep.) | Costa Rica | Côte d'Ivoire | Croatia | Cuba | Cyprus | Czech Republic D Denmark | Djibouti | Dominica | Dominican Republic E Ecuador | Egypt | El Salvador | Equatorial Guinea | Eritrea | Estonia | Ethiopia F Fiji | Finland | Former Yugoslav Republic of Macedonia | France G Gabon | Gambia | Georgia | Germany | Ghana | Greece | Grenada | Guatemala | Guinea | Guinea Bissau | Guyana H Haiti | Honduras | Hungary I Iceland | India | Indonesia | Iran | Iraq | Ireland | Israel | Italy J Jamaica | Japan | Jordan K Kazakhstan | Kenya | Korea (Rep. of) |Kuwait | Kyrgyzstan L Laos | Latvia | Lebanon | Lesotho | Liberia | Libya | Liechtenstein | Lithuania | Luxembourg M Madagascar | Malawi | Malaysia | Maldives | Mali | Malta | Marshall Islands | Mauritania | Mauritius | Mexico | Moldova | Monaco | Mongolia | Montenegro | Morocco | Mozambique | Myanmar N Namibia | Nauru | Nepal | Netherlands | Netherlands Antilles | New Zealand | Nicaragua | Niger | Nigeria | Norway O Oman P Pakistan | Panama | Papua New Guinea |Paraguay | Peru | Philippines | Poland | Portugal Q Qatar R Romania | Russia | Rwanda S St Kitts & Nevis | St Lucia | St Vincent & the Grenadines | San Marino | Sao Tome & Principe | Saudi Arabia | Senegal | Serbia | Seychelles | Sierra Leone | Singapore | Slovakia | Slovenia | Somalia | South Africa | Spain | Sri Lanka | Sudan | Suriname | Swaziland | Sweden | Switzerland | Syria T Tajikistan | Tanzania | Thailand | Timor - Leste | Togo | Tonga | Trinidad & Tobago | Tunisia | Turkey | Turkmenistan U Uganda | Ukraine | United Arab Emirates | United Kingdom | United States | Uruguay | Uzbekistan V Vatican City State | Venezuela | Vietnam Y Yemen Z Zambia | Zimbabwe Last time I looked Afghanistan and Zimbabwe were not part of Europe. The page on Wikipedia you link to even points out that Interpol is a massively international organisation that expands well beyond Europe.

You like to attack me for the nature of my post but you are stating something as fact "Europe has Interpol" and giving a reference that proves it wrong. Not much of a winning argument that one.

Matthew

[Crazy Buddhist]

ps


Further exacerbating the situation, social networks also provide a potential channel for peers to express frustrations and challenges, and to identify opportunities with each other, outside traditional structures and processes. The natural impulse in such an open environment may impel government toward control and con-straint rather than facilitation and enablement. (from an Australian Academic paper)

This is what governments and the very small number of wealthy families that run the show are scared of: we might "identify opportunities with each other, outside of traditional frameworks" - i.e. outside of government control. God forbid that we should do that. So government wants to map and track our every move to nanny us and monitor those things we do "outside of traditional frameworks".

The point here is that governments are increasingly treating all their citizens like criminals and a nanny-state is the result, then inevitably there will be a move towards fascism. This concentration of unbalanced power is unhealthy. It is why people fought for human rights and balance between the state and the individual. I'm not suggesting Gordon Brown is a fascist but once you give government a power it is very hard to take it back - and you never know whose hands it will end up in. In the last seven years all balance has been lost.

BTW ... MP's correspondence is not subject to the freedom of information act. Yet government want free access to all of your information?

Watch this: At least as far as part 8 please and INFORM YOURSELF or the short version below.

http://www.youtube.com/view_play_list?p=99C3A187BA2F0735


If you follow the Washington Post you see that the level of surveillance that is now directed at us is now so high that when you get on a plane they know what you are reading, who you are sitting next to, where you are going when you get off the plane and the phone number of the person you are going to visit ....


Naomi Wolf - Author
Here's the short version of the above playlist just of her talk without the added information:

RjALf12PAWc

[Omega]

Because they have believed a bunch of blatant lies about some guy in a cave in Afghanistan wih a PDA planning and implementing the 9/11 attacks and defeating the hundreds of billions the US spends on security? Likely story yeah. the fact the US had several exercises running that day that confused everyone - coincidence? the fact that building seven was without doubt blown up by implanted explosives and this seems very likely to have precipitated the colapse of Towers 1 & 2.

The fact is that 9/11 is totally debunked and was an inside job created to set up the fear and panic needed to fully domesticate the American polulace (successful). And now there is underway the creation of an artificial global panic and depression that will be used as the excuse for taking away MORE of your rights which you have been carefuly programmed to accept as "essential for your safety".


I don't care who you think you are, but I'm highly offended that you would ever believe this. Keeping in mind that security regulations for people visiting the US AND airline safety were both much more lenient pre-9/11. It's not like it would have been hard to hijack the airplanes, as is obviated by the fact that it happened.

Regardless, the fact that you're willing to attribute the deaths of thousands of innocent people to a government conspiracy is sickening.:dead:

[nevermind1534]

I don't care who you think you are, but I'm highly offended that you would ever believe this. Keeping in mind that security regulations for people visiting the US AND airline safety were both much more lenient pre-9/11. It's not like it would have been hard to hijack the airplanes, as is obviated by the fact that it happened.

Regardless, the fact that you're willing to attribute the deaths of thousands of innocent people to a government conspiracy is sickening.:dead:

I agree with you. Plus, the government would never be able to carry out something of that scale without anybody leaking the plans. Now, were the london subway bombings, the train spain, and the guy with the bomb in his shoe all the US government? I believe not. The 9/11 conspiracy theorists all argue different things. The government released the tapes from when the plane hit the pentagon that they confiscated.

[Crazy Buddhist]

I don't care who you think you are, but I'm highly offended that you would ever believe this. Keeping in mind that security regulations for people visiting the US AND airline safety were both much more lenient pre-9/11. It's not like it would have been hard to hijack the airplanes, as is obviated by the fact that it happened.

Regardless, the fact that you're willing to attribute the deaths of thousands of innocent people to a government conspiracy is sickening.:dead:

Dear Omega,

I know who I am. I am not attributing deaths to a Government conspiracy but a neo-conservative conspiracy that preceeded GW Bush's election.

Realise if you are going to be offended by other peoples beliefs then your life is going to be a nasty rocky road of confrontation.

Several of the alleged hijackers were trained in US military bases, three more lived in the house of an FBI informant and three are currently working for Saudi Airlines as pilots - these are established facts. Nothing to do with belief.

These facts and others make me and millions of other people
believe this was a false-flag operation. We may be wrong or may be right.

I wonder what would be more sickening to you - this being a Government op or people being mistaken in their views?

Of course - if we were right that is more sickening. But it's much more cosy to believe we are wrong.

Best,

Matthew

ps


the government would never be able to carry out something of that scale without anybody leaking the plans. Now, were the london subway bombings, the train spain, and the guy with the bomb in his shoe all the US government? I believe not. The 9/11 conspiracy theorists all argue different things. The government released the tapes from when the plane hit the pentagon that they confiscated.

There have been plenty of leaks and on Sep 12th Rumsfeld needed to go on national TV to warn US defence staff not to whistleblow. The patriot act was written before 9/11. Both the Madrid train Bombings and London bombings were probably the work of copycat extremeists. The shoe bomber was just a plain old fruitcake.

I was unaware the government released the tapes. Have you a link?

[Omega]

Dear Omega,

I know who I am. I am not attributing deaths to a Government conspiracy but a neo-conservative conspiracy that preceeded GW Bush's election.

Realise if you are going to be offended by other peoples beliefs then your life is going to be a nasty rocky road of confrontation.

Several of the alleged hijackers were trained in US military bases, three more lived in the house of an FBI informant and three are currently working for Saudi Airlines as pilots - these are established facts. Nothing to do with belief.

These facts and others make me and the millions of other people
believe this was a false-flag operation. We may be wrong or may be right.

I wonder what would be more sickening to you - this being a Government op or people being mistaken in their views?

Of course - if we were right that is more sickening. But it's much more cosy to believe we are wrong.

Best,

Matthew

I'm not easily offended to be honest, but there's a few things, like people calling 9/11 an inside job, that piss me off.

Please, though, show me where you're getting your "facts". I'd very much like to know what information I've supposedly missed out on.

[Crazy Buddhist]

Dear Omega

It is not my intention to offend.


I'm not easily offended to be honest, but there's a few things, like people calling 9/11 an inside job, that piss me off.

Please, though, show me where you're getting your "facts". I'd very much like to know what information I've supposedly missed out on.

I will happily give you links. Will you examine the material with an open mind? You might learn something that will surprise you. You'll need a few hours free.

Matthew

[Omega]

Dear Omega

I will happily give you links. Will you examine the material with an open mind? You might learn something that will surprise you. You'll need a few hours free.

Matthew


I always try to examine data with an open mind. Whether or not it changes my stance is another story, but I'm not going to just shoot it down based on what I already believe.

[Crazy Buddhist]

I always try to examine data with an open mind. Whether or not it changes my stance is another story, but I'm not going to just shoot it down based on what I already believe.

Omega,

My intention is not to convince of conspiracy but to show you there are good reasons to question the official story. I am uploading the best evidential documentary I have at the moment to my server and will post a streaming link to it when done.

It is full of interviews with serious sensible people.

Matthew

[Omega]

PM me the stuff when it's up. It's 2am here and, well, i'm tired.

[Crazy Buddhist]

PM me the stuff when it's up. It's 2am here and, well, i'm tired.

Sleep well

I'll put a streaming link and a download link here - they'll be up by the time you are.

[jdbnsn]

Enough of this already. This site is about art/tech and creativity, not a political forums for conspiracy debates. There are plenty of captivating books and websites available to pursue this stuff.

[Crimson Sky]

Dear Mr. C. Buddhist,

The only Big Brother you need to be concerned about when posting on this website is me, because I have the uber magic button technology to erase the existence of all your posts here with a single mouse click ;)

We're watching you...