I would've stayed sitting too

[TheGreatSatan]

Teens thrown out of game for not standing during singing of "God Bless America" (http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20090914/ap_on_re_us/us_ballpark_etiquette)

I'm not a Christian and wouldn't have stood either. I've lost jobs because of my beliefs, a game wouldn't change that for me.

[SXRguyinMA]

I saw that, its rediculous. glad they're not letting it slide

[Zephik]

Regardless of your beliefs, that's messed up. I guess there will always be stupid people, but is it so much to ask to at least not have stupid people running things or deciding things? I hope these people are absolutely ashamed of themselves. Someone needs to educate these people. We are NOT a religious country. Freedom to religion yes, but no one religion and certainly not under any one or multiple religion. It should be a crime against this countries very principles and its existence that we even say "in god we trust" on our currency, but this is just stupid. So many people have gathered under a single banner and for so long, that people start thinking that's the way things are or should be, that we are a nation of god. BS. Do they not teach anything in schools? Such a shame, to see this once great nation go to waste because its citizens are morons and religious tools. If we don't raise the bar, if we don't massively improve our educational standards, this country is going to be lost due to its own people. We need to get back to our roots and remember why and what for that this country was founded and created. Land of the free my ass. More like land of the free as long as you fit in and/or more so than most other countries. That's not what I call true freedom.

Anyways, that's my rant for the day. I thought it was well said at least, if not a little bit "out of nowhere". lol

[simon275]

Wow that is pretty rough. We have nothing like that here. Some people amuse themselves by making up new lyrics to our national anthem and most people forget the 2nd verse and mumble anyway. Everyone deap down is still pretty proud. I will admit we are not squeaky clean either. But for not singing the athem how highly strung are some people geez.

On a random note in relation to Zephik neat rant. Eudcation is very important but there needs to be a culture that education is important and not just throw money at it. I feel more focus needs to be put on hard science education. While it is important to have people in the arts as it contributes to a well balanced soceity I feel to many people are taking the soft option these days.

I could go on but Zephik's summary was tight.

[crenn]

Wow that is pretty rough. We have nothing like that here. Some people amuse themselves by making up new lyrics to our national anthem and most people forget the 2nd verse and mumble anyway. Everyone deap down is still pretty proud. I will admit we are not squeaky clean either. But for not singing the athem how highly strung are some people geez.
They forget the 2nd verse and most are shocked when they find out there is even more! (5 is what I can find currently)

As for not singing an anthem or not standing up. When I'm forced to go to church, I'll stand but won't sing (I also have a horrible singing voice).

[Zephik]

FYI - "God Bless America" isn't even our national anthem. The US national anthem is "The Star-Spangled Banner". Its a much better song imho, gets me choked up every time. :p

[slaveofconvention]

Just to play devils advocate - it could be reasonably argued that by not standing they showed a huge disrespect to the vast majority who did...

[Airbozo]

Just to play devils advocate - it could be reasonably argued that by not standing they showed a huge disrespect to the vast majority who did...

On the Devil's advocate side:

They showed a huge disrespect to people of all religions playing that song in the first place.

OK I tried...

[Luke122]

Freedom to religion yes, but no one religion and certainly not under any one or multiple religion. It should be a crime against this countries very principles and its existence that we even say "in god we trust" on our currency,

I COMPLETELY disagree with you on this. I'm probably going to sound like some kind of racist asshole here (which I'm really not! honest!), but our countries were founded by Christians/Catholics. The people who came here and started all of this believed in God, and based things on Christian/Catholic beliefs. Freedom, equality, etc.

I'm all for freedom of expression, beliefs, speech, religion, etc, but if you want to come to my house, and tell me that what I think/do/believe is wrong, then GTFO my house. If you want to come to my house, and believe what you want, that's fine. I'm not going to tell you it's wrong, even if I dont agree with it.

You talk about "Freedom of religion" and yet you go on to bash the very basis of the freedom by saying that it "should be a crime against this countries very principles" to have "in God we trust" on currency. That sounds pretty intolerant to me.. particularly against the very founders of our countries, and the principles that they based everything on.

Getting thrown out for refusing to stand is wrong. Refusing to stand in the first place.. also kind of wrong.

[Airbozo]

I COMPLETELY disagree with you on this. I'm probably going to sound like some kind of racist asshole here (which I'm really not! honest!), but our countries were founded by Christians/Catholics. The people who came here and started all of this believed in God, and based things on Christian/Catholic beliefs. Freedom, equality, etc.

I'm all for freedom of expression, beliefs, speech, religion, etc, but if you want to come to my house, and tell me that what I think/do/believe is wrong, then GTFO my house. If you want to come to my house, and believe what you want, that's fine. I'm not going to tell you it's wrong, even if I dont agree with it.

You talk about "Freedom of religion" and yet you go on to bash the very basis of the freedom by saying that it "should be a crime against this countries very principles" to have "in God we trust" on currency. That sounds pretty intolerant to me.. particularly against the very founders of our countries, and the principles that they based everything on.

Getting thrown out for refusing to stand is wrong. Refusing to stand in the first place.. also kind of wrong.


Not this debate again...

We are bordering on several no-no's in the TOS; religion AND politics...

"...in god we trust" and "...one nation under god"... were added to the money/pledge of allegiance during the McCarthy era. 'nuff said. (look it up if you don't understand)

Freedom of religion has also been equated with freedom from religion. The founding fathers of the US came from a strict religious country and wanted to make sure that a similar thing did not happen here. Or at least that is the interpretation constitutional law scholars have deducted.

Here is the respect thing in my eyes;
If I were to visit a Catholic church I would show respect for their religion and perform the stand up sit down kneel calisthenics. If I were to visit an Islamic place of worship, I would also adhere to their customs.

A ball game is no where near a place of worship (unless you subscribe to the sports gods theory ;) ), so IMHO it is not disrespect to ignore the whole religious parade. It is a ball game, NOT a church.

However:

At a Hockey game, when a US team plays a Canadian team, they play BOTH national anthems. The visiting country's anthem is first, followed by the hosting country. It IS a matter of respect to stand for both anthems and I will give anyone grief for not showing that respect. Just ask the guy 5 seats down from me who refuses to stand for Oh Canada. The whole section gives they guy grief. We are not asking him to become a Canadian citizen, or to sing along, but at least show respect.

EDIT: What I forgot to add is even though I feel the respect should be payed, I would be the first to stand in front of security to prevent them from removing him for not paying respect.

[Zephik]

but our countries were founded by Christians/Catholics. The people who came here and started all of this believed in God, and based things on Christian/Catholic beliefs.

Founded by, not founded for.

[Airbozo]

Founded by, not founded for.

Even this is questionable since "Christian" refers to several groups of religions.

[Zephik]

That's also true. They probably came from various religious backgrounds. I wonder if any of them were atheist? or "closet atheist" as being as such wasn't exactly widely accepted back then. The second part of what I said before rings true in any case. Although, I guess you could say that this country was founded for freedom of all types of religion, so.. but that's kind of missing the point a bit. :p

[Luke122]

Well, as I said, they should not have been removed for refusing to stand, but at the same time, they should have just stood up out of respect.

I also dont think that we should have to change every aspect of our culture to prevent "offending" people. Anyone who tells me that I can't do what I've always done, because someone who just moved here from wherever might get upset about that, can kiss my ass.

Don't come here looking for freedom, and then complain that what I choose to do with my freedom offends you.

[Airbozo]

Well, as I said, they should not have been removed for refusing to stand, but at the same time, they should have just stood up out of respect.

I also dont think that we should have to change every aspect of our culture to prevent "offending" people. Anyone who tells me that I can't do what I've always done, because someone who just moved here from wherever might get upset about that, can kiss my ass.

Don't come here looking for freedom, and then complain that what I choose to do with my freedom offends you.

:up:

[msmrx57]

:stupid: minus the stupid :up:

[LiTHiUM0XiD3]

Well, as I said, they should not have been removed for refusing to stand, but at the same time, they should have just stood up out of respect.

I also dont think that we should have to change every aspect of our culture to prevent "offending" people. Anyone who tells me that I can't do what I've always done, because someone who just moved here from wherever might get upset about that, can kiss my ass.

Don't come here looking for freedom, and then complain that what I choose to do with my freedom offends you.

i agree entirely... not being able to speak of "christmas" in public schools is just wrong... havin to call it a holiday tree? im all for the equality... but dont ruin my life plz...

[Luke122]

i agree entirely... not being able to speak of "christmas" in public schools is just wrong

No kidding.. If I moved my ass to Iraq, and started to raise hell about how their holidays offend me, how far do you think I'd get?

If I went to India, and started butchering cows and selling beef, how long would I last?

In Russia, I was turned away from entering a church, because I was wearing shorts. Here, I play guitar on stage in church, wearing shorts. The pastor occasionally wears shorts!

All I'm saying is that if you want to move somewhere else, you better f*cking learn to accept the way of life there.

[nevermind1534]

Well, as I said, they should not have been removed for refusing to stand, but at the same time, they should have just stood up out of respect.

I also dont think that we should have to change every aspect of our culture to prevent "offending" people. Anyone who tells me that I can't do what I've always done, because someone who just moved here from wherever might get upset about that, can kiss my ass.

Don't come here looking for freedom, and then complain that what I choose to do with my freedom offends you.

+1

It's pretty terrible when nobody can even mention God in public without people getting pissed off, but nobody can say anything bad about minority groups (no offense intended to anybody), including Islam, etc..

The country was made for freedom of religion, not freedom to destroy religion.

I like this quote:


The real reason that we can’t have the Ten Commandments in a courthouse: You cannot
post “Thou shalt not steal,” “Thou shalt not commit adultery,” and “Thou shalt not lie”
in a building full of lawyers, judges, and politicians. It creates a hostile work environment.

[Mark_Hardware]

I'm not a Christian

Really? Damn and here I thought.... Sorry I guess your name threw me off lol

[slaveofconvention]

Well, as I said, they should not have been removed for refusing to stand, but at the same time, they should have just stood up out of respect.

I think that about hits the nail right on the head - no they didn't HAVE to stand up, but they bloody well should have done....

I don't know what the rules/laws are over that side of the pond but most privately owned venues and a lot of publically owned ones too for that matter have a "the management reserve the right to refuse entry or ask you to leave for any reason" so personally I hope they get their butts handed to them (along with a big legal bill) in court - this whole "sue for any reason, I want my money" attitude drives me nuts and I can't claim it's an american thing any more because its getting more and more like that over here too - I swear one ad in 4 on TV/radio now is to encourage you to claim for SOMETHING...

[nevermind1534]

I don't know what the rules/laws are over that side of the pond but most privately owned venues and a lot of publically owned ones too for that matter have a "the management reserve the right to refuse entry or ask you to leave for any reason"

Yep, a guy got thrown out of a Lions game for holding a "Fire Millen" sign (google it).

[Luke122]

I just read that a 9 month old baby was refused entry to a Packers game, because the parents didnt have a ticket for her.

Yeah, she'll take up a seat.. good explanation. :P The father let her go with the rest of his family (there was 8 of them), and bought a ticket from a scalper to join them.

[Airbozo]

I just read that a 9 month old baby was refused entry to a Packers game, because the parents didnt have a ticket for her.

Yeah, she'll take up a seat.. good explanation. :P The father let her go with the rest of his family (there was 8 of them), and bought a ticket from a scalper to join them.

I have been behind and in front of people who bring their small kids to a game without a ticket. I am glad they started enforcing the one person per seat rule. Getting kicked in the back of the head, or spit up on ruins the whole event.

In this case I would side with the stadium...

[nevermind1534]

I have been behind and in front of people who bring their small kids to a game without a ticket. I am glad they started enforcing the one person per seat rule. Getting kicked in the back of the head, or spit up on ruins the whole event.

In this case I would side with the stadium...

But a 9 month old likely isn't going to be sitting in their own seat, anyway.

[simon275]

I guess not standing up is a bit of a grey area. As I don't know whether it would be specifically protected as a right to not sing. But it is their property so they can make any rules they want. As long as it isn't discrimination or violates fundamental rights. Like they could enforce a rule that everyone must wear their pants on their head and refuse entry to those who don't. But they couldn't refuse entry to people because they where of a certain race or creed without some other reason.

[Oneslowz28]

This thread should not have been posted in the first place. Religion / political debates have no place on tbcs. Do not deny this as the first 2 sentences state the actions of the school pissed the OP off for religious reasons. This stuff does nothing to further the growth of our community.

I shall close this now.