My Unnamed Theoretical Project

[mDust]

I figured after 2 months of membership that it was time to get to work...even if not physically. I don't have the money or tools yet to begin but I'm not worried about that because I don't have the planning 100% worked out yet.
A few years ago I read about an oil-submerged PC and I thought it was the coolest thing...I then forgot all about it until I read about a company that patented the concept (the bastards...next they'll be patenting air cooling as well) and are selling oil cooled rigs for like 14k bucks. Dream on. Anyone that pays that much for it has too much money and no sense of the value of that money.
Anyway, I figured I could do it cheaper than said company and make it look better than just about everyone that has done this before. So, during down time at work, I made some sketches and repeatedly refined different layouts and designs until I found the most efficient combination. I then fired up 3DS Max and modeled out my system to the best of my motivation...which doesn't mean it's very good or well polished.

Basically, what I have come up with is like a fish tank but better:
1) Everything but the optical drives and HDDs (if I include them) will be completely submerged in crystal clear mineral oil. I thought about making a snorkel of sorts for the HDD but I couldn't make it look good, keep it practical, or guarantee the drive's safety.
2) The oil will be cooled passively, for the most part, with 2 360 rads and 6 quiet fans that will be turned on only if passive cooling lags behind heat generation. Hot oil near the top is pumped through the rads and cooled oil is released into the bottom of the tank.
3) The oil tank will be nearly completely sealed to prevent leaks and contamination. I want the oil to remain in the tank and to stay 100% clear at all times. There will be a drain valve on the bottom of the case in the event the oil needs to be drained.
4) I will install permanent cable extensions from the mobo to the tank lid, and all external connections will plug into the lid. This should keep any "oil-wicking" to a minimum while allowing a better seal for the tank.
5) The submerged components will all be attached to a clear acrylic plate that also serves as the mobo tray. This tray is attached to the lid of the tank which allows the components to be removed with dry hands. :D
6) The top of the tank will be hinged to open to 90 degrees vertical so the components can be lifted vertically out of the oil bath. This should eliminate much of the mess as the parts can be left to drain over the tank and there will be absolutely no reaching into the tank of oil.
7) The back of the mobo will now be the top so most of the external cables are kept out of the oil as much as possible.

I think that pretty much takes care of most of the functionality of the design. Form follows function:
1) The tank itself is two layers of acrylic. The outside layer is generic, clear acrylic and the inside is 2-way mirror acrylic. With bright red CCFL's inside the tank, you will be able to see in but not out...at least not very well.
2) The top of the case (encapsulating the rads, fans, and opticals) will be opaque black acrylic. I thought about continuing with a red theme, but my current case is bright red, so it's time for a change!
3) Undecided on a rad grill...as in I don't know what I'm going to do about their hideousness yet.
4) I thought about cable sleeving with silver mylar (such as this (http://www.performance-pcs.com/catalog/index.php?main_page=product_info&cPath=32_207&products_id=854)) to keep everything shiny and reflective.
5) In the very bottom of the tank I was going to dump about an inch of red or silver dyed water! I know what you're thinking, and no I'm not a complete idiot. Oil floats on water, but is heavier than air and so it exerts more pressure on the surface of the water, keeping it relatively stable. With the pump dumping the oil near the bottom of the case, I hope to get a nice, slow, reflective ripple effect across the bottom of the tank. And as for water shorting anything out, the higher viscosity oil will create a non-conductive barrier so I could technically pour water over the oil-submerged components with little to no effect. Before I do risk any equipment though, I will be thoroughly testing this to confirm beyond any doubt that it works.

Anyway, I have some pics and vids of my concept. I'll be rendering out more today or tomorrow.

http://img203.imageshack.us/img203/6171/scene0101.jpg
http://img8.imageshack.us/img8/3274/scene0102.jpg
http://img257.imageshack.us/img257/8290/scene0103.jpg

And here's a link (http://yfrog.us/2ctest05z) to the worst quality vid I've ever seen. It wasn't that dark or low res before uploading...but hey, free file hosting!

Comments, thoughts, suggestions please!:banana:

[x88x]

Looks awesome; I think probably one of the best thought out full-immersion designs I've ever seen (not that there are that many, but still). Depending on your budget, instead of having to put your HDDs up top with the ODDs and have to worry about cooling them, you could just go with SSDs instead and stick them in the oil as well. With the configuration you're doing, I don't think that the radiator will be necessary, but we all love overkill. The GPUs will work great in that orientation because the fans will push the hot oil out the back of the cards, straight to the top of the vat. Similarly, for the CPU I would recommend one with a very large surface area. You might even be able to get away with not putting a fan on it. Also, for the fans you put in the oil, make sure they're really strong fans. Since they'll be pushing through a lot more resistance than they're designed to, they will have a much higher strain on them. You also might want to undervolt them so they spin slower than normal (especially the GPU fans).

I love the idea of the water at the bottom; just make sure it's thoroughly tested before you put any components in there.

Oh, and make sure you clean the components with isopropyl alcohol first to clear off any impurities.

[mDust]

My plan is for 2 SSDs in Raid0 for uber maximum awesomeness. I forgot to mention that, and also didn't show the other side of the tank which is where the 2 SSDs are submerged near the bottom/back. And because my budget is limited, I might just get enough hardware to assemble a working computer and add stuff to it at a later point.
As for the rads, I believe they (at least 1) are necessary, but the fans should be optional. The oil bath is a closed environment so the heat would just keep building up thus cooling the hardware less effectively. That's what I've read anyhow... The Puget Systems rig (http://www.pugetsystems.com/submerged.php) (which has no oil cooling system) runs over 80Celsius under load, which is not what I want for my computer. I'm not expecting lower than normal temps, but I expect the temps to stay pretty stable even when OC'd a bit and under load. And we DO like overkill...so it's win, win!:D
I do like the way the fans look spinning slowly in the oil, so they will stay. I've read that they will be fine and there is no danger of them burning up, but I will be under-volting them anyway--the CPU fan via the bios, and I'll probably use RivaTuner to keep the graphics card fans chugging at about 10-20%.

I guess I can't embed video from ImageShack? So here (dial up users beware!) (http://img15.imageshack.us/i/test06.mp4/) is a link to a video I just rendered out. It shows the components a bit, although it doesn't represent specific hardware at this point. It also shows a bit of wave action, but the movement of the camera sort of ruins that experience.
I also rendered out the following:
The front:
http://img5.imageshack.us/img5/2318/frontdm.jpg
This shows the regular, old aftermarket air cooler that I'll have mounted to the CPU on the left and a shiny, modular PSU on the right. I've heard that not having a heatsink on the CPU in the oil will just cause an extreme hot spot in the oil and won't effectively cool it. So I'm thinking the copper heat-pipes will draw the heat away to the aluminum fins which should cool just like in the air, but better. There's also some "illustrated wave action" at the bottom.

The back:
http://img7.imageshack.us/img7/909/backay.jpg
The back shows the pump in the upper left, SSDs in the lower left, cold-oil return on the right side (barely visible actually, forget about this:whistler:), and above the tank is a hole in the back that serves as both an air intake if the fans are running and an exit for a nice, neat bundle of cables.

The left side:
http://img3.imageshack.us/img3/7388/leftsidez.jpg
Looks like a normal PC...floating in mid-air! At least I hope. I'm not sure what the refractory properties of mineral oil are and I intend for the acrylic plate everything is mounted to to be barely visible.

The right side:
http://img196.imageshack.us/img196/571/rightsides.jpg
Looks like the other side but with different pieces floating.

(I swear ImageShack is making my vids darker...it's the exact same scene as the stills were rendered from...maybe it's just me though.)

[x88x]

Looks pretty sweet. I don't have any personal experience with full-immersion cooling, but the oil should follow the same thermal behavior of any liquid, so have no fan the the CPU HS (I assume that's what you meant, not no HS) should just heat the oil around it, which will then become less dense than the oil above it and go up, replaced by the surrounding oil, which heats up and...you get the idea. Anyways, I'm sure the fan won't cause any problems, and will do a better job of cooling it.

[mDust]

Yep, that's a convection current...I think I got confused somewhere before I replied. My bad.

[billygoat333]

this looks like a sweet idea. if you start work on it make sure to do a worklog!! we all wanna see this. :up:

[sloppyc]

Nice. I'd like to try a mineral-oil PC sometime as well. Time, space and budget don't permit at the moment, though.

Good luck, look forward to seeing this come to fruition.

[sunny2010]

Sir mDust, there is another modder named mstjuan at the recently concluded CM contest where I was disqualified... Are both of you same (just asking)... I asked because he submitted an entry with almost similar idea as submerged into an oil... I can't give you the link because I hate that place (forum)...For sure it works for him, but what's best you're doing it step by step!!! complete with planning!!! We're both on Unique category...

[mDust]

A worklog would be mandatory IMO. :D Personal finances and some minor planning details are the only obstacles keeping this project in limbo. I'm looking to rectify the situation ASAP...but it may take a while before I can get started.


Sir mDust, there is another modder named mstjuan at the recently concluded CM contest where I was disqualified... Are both of you same (just asking)...Nope, wasn't me. I've never participated in a modding competition.
Oil cooling, although not very popular, is not a new concept. There have been oil cooled PC's around for over a decade, oil cooled computers around since the 80's or so, and oil cooled electronics such as utility transformers have been around for about 40 years...so the concept for this project is not original but the design is as far as I know.

If anyone notices anything odd within the design I have laid out or a potential problem (other than saying 'the fans will burn out!' hehe, that's usually the first thing people point out) or even something that could be added, go ahead and post it here so it can be discussed. Any and all comments are welcome.

[billygoat333]

you know what would be cool? get one of those electric trolling motors with the propellers on em to turn this up. that would be wicked. might be a little overkill though :P

[mDust]

you know what would be cool? get one of those electric trolling motors with the propellers on em to turn this up. that would be wicked. might be a little overkill though :P

LMAO, that would be pretty interesting. Overkill? Yes...and I don't really need something like that breaking free from it's mount near my hardware!:D I wonder how many extra points I'd get for being the first person on earth to do that?:think:

[x88x]

I feel like it might actually do more harm than good; with that small a tank, the oil would probably just get churned up a whole lot.

[mDust]

I feel like it might actually do more harm than good; with that small a tank, the oil would probably just get churned up a whole lot.Yeah, I was thinking about cavitation, convection and such...then about size and noise...then about freak accidents that potentially could piss off the guy that lives in the apartment below mine and my landlord at the same time. My lease says I'm not allowed to have a fish tank...but fails to even mention tanks of oil!
(Any apartment dwellers ever read the completely inane clauses in your lease? They're there because of people like me...:whistler:)

[billygoat333]

yeah... was totally kidding. unless you could figure a way to make it work. :P

[nevermind1534]

you know what would be cool? get one of those electric trolling motors with the propellers on em to turn this up. that would be wicked. might be a little overkill though :P

lmao Juust remember, "it's not overkill unless something dies from it"

But really, at that point, you might as well get a nice fan for 1/10th the price.

[Mark_Hardware]

(other than saying 'the fans will burn out!' hehe, that's usually the first thing people point out) or even something that could be added, go ahead and post it here so it can be discussed. Any and all comments are welcome.

Actually that one site that did it ran it for over a year and never once had trouble with any fans
EDIT; this (http://www.pugetsystems.com/submerged.php) site ;)

[mDust]

Actually that one site that did it ran it for over a year and never once had trouble with any fans
EDIT; this (http://www.pugetsystems.com/submerged.php) site ;)Yep, that's why I don't want people to say that. My fault for not being clear there.:)

I have some extremely high (like 180 or so) CFM 120mm server fans from Delta that I thought would be neat in the oil, but I think they may completely disrupt any convection currents. Maybe I'll just put them on the sides of the tank so it can fly.:D

[Baraspitfire]

I would suggest that instead of having water in the bottom have a more dense oil, that way there is no chance of shorting on the water, and even if you did have the fan (propeller) in the bottom you could put a failsafe such as a deadmans switch on it, so if it does lift up it turns off straight away.

[mDust]

Hello Baraspitfire and welcome to TBCS!
Yes, I thought about denser oil as well before I took my own water idea seriously. The water can't be replaced with oil because I want just the water to be dyed silver to make sort of a liquid mirror below the clear mineral oil. The dye mixes well with water but will not mix at all with oil which is perfect. If there's a dye that will work with heavy oil but not mineral oil, then I'm all ears, but I doubt if anything that specific exists.
From my own personal experiments the water stays put even more so than I expected. I'm not entirely sure that the wave action will happen as planned. I filled a small container with about an inch of water and maybe 5 inches of mineral oil and played around with it. The weight of the oil pushes down on the surface of the water much, much harder than the air does and therefor limits the motion along the boundary. My case design will be holding about the same amount of water but much more oil...meaning more weight. This means finding the right balance between 'no motion' and 'turbulent water bubbles being thrown about' is just that much more difficult. I'll figure it out though...:think:
Oh, and no propellers will be included!:)
I also figured instead of just red lights I'd include several different colors so I can switch it up a bit. It's not going to be a rainbow in there, the colors will just be switchable as well as optionally being turned off...maybe even an option for red, green, and blue at the same time to make a white light. I pondered this after thinking about my old Dell XPS that had a similar color switching feature built into the bios. I originally planned on two red CCFLs, but now I'm thinking LEDs would be a better choice to allow for several colors to be installed. I'll look into it in detail before I commit to anything more than 'figuring' though.

[Baraspitfire]

It would be cool to have a larger tank around the outside, fill it with water (yes i know the complication there) and stick fish in it :D lol

[mDust]

It would be cool to have a larger tank around the outside, fill it with water (yes i know the complication there) and stick fish in it :D lol
haha. Unfortunately, my landlord would have a fit if he ever found out I had a fish tank...having repairs done to my apartment occasionally would mean the repair guy would see it and could mention it to him. Also, I'm lazy and the fish would die due to neglect. For those reasons alone, I will not do this...but I think, if done correctly, something like that could look pretty good.

[billygoat333]

wonder if goldfish would be hardy enough to live under the mineral oil in the same tank? lol those things would live in anything.

[Baraspitfire]

correct me if im wrong but i don't think that mineral oil contains oxygen, so is unable to sustain life, and i don't think id want fish getting caught up in the fans, otherwise there could be some nice red looking liquid in the case...

[mDust]

wonder if goldfish would be hardy enough to live under the mineral oil in the same tank? lol those things would live in anything.

:no: Don't ask how I know...

[MrNintend0]

Nice designs, I was thinking of building one of these myself, but I never thought of using rads to cool the oil; I thought the pump wouldn't be able to handle the density of the mineral oil and burn out well before it's time... I do have a thought for you, it may make it more complicated but here it goes:

It might be possible to mount the disc drive and a hard drive making it "appear" to be submerged... If you can understand what I mean... basically build a small dual-bay 5.25 inch cube out of the stuff you're building the case out of, leaving the front and back opened to mount the disc drive and hard drive. Find a way to make a sort of a sata hot-swap system to install on the back of the cube and seal it good. Then cut a hole large enough in one of the sides of the case and mount the dual-bay cube on the inside of the case, over the hole, with the hot-swap sata rig positioned towards the inside of the case. Then seal that part good and you have yourself an external-internal Drive mount...

BTW I thought of this in like 2 minutes, so I'm sorry if the idea doesn't work out or it's a bit hard to follow through...

[mDust]

Nice designs, I was thinking of building one of these myself, but I never thought of using rads to cool the oil; I thought the pump wouldn't be able to handle the density of the mineral oil and burn out well before it's time...Thanks. I didn't think a pump could handle it either to be honest, but others have had good luck pumping oil so if I don't I'll just blame them!:)


It might be possible to mount the disc drive and a hard drive making it "appear" to be submerged... If you can understand what I mean... basically build a small dual-bay 5.25 inch cube out of the stuff you're building the case out of, leaving the front and back opened to mount the disc drive and hard drive. Find a way to make a sort of a sata hot-swap system to install on the back of the cube and seal it good. Then cut a hole large enough in one of the sides of the case and mount the dual-bay cube on the inside of the case, over the hole, with the hot-swap sata rig positioned towards the inside of the case. Then seal that part good and you have yourself an external-internal Drive mount...

BTW I thought of this in like 2 minutes, so I'm sorry if the idea doesn't work out or it's a bit hard to follow through...
I follow ya. Thanks for the input. I'm considering it, but I may just keep a simple box for the tank to minimize the amount of gluing/sealing work to be done. The seals are the weakest points and I really don't need oil all over my stuff...and I'll bet the tenants below me don't either! I did try to come up with ways to actually submerge them, but it got complicated really fast, and that's when stuff goes wrong for me. As it is, I'm worried about simply gluing acrylic sheets together and then sealing the seam. I'm looking into getting a router to make sort of a tongue-and-groove seam for strength and more surface area for the glue. I really don't want to have to put some metal reinforcing brackets on the acrylic tank, but I also don't want to be evicted for creating a huge mess...:(

[MrNintend0]

As it is, I'm worried about simply gluing acrylic sheets together and then sealing the seam. I'm looking into getting a router to make sort of a tongue-and-groove seam for strength and more surface area for the glue. I really don't want to have to put some metal reinforcing brackets on the acrylic tank, but I also don't want to be evicted for creating a huge mess...:(

I hear ya... If you're wanting a good sealer, try Marine GOOP Glue, the stuff takes like 24 hours to fully cure, but it's well worth it :]

[madd0ct0r]

Anything happen with this idea?

[mDust]

Anything happen with this idea?
Slowly but surely...I really want to get it right on the first take. I've changed stuff around so many times...then changed it back. lol
I'm also unsure of if I want to get a new system to drop in it or just keep my current system and upgrade the graphics card(s).
I did buy some acrylic and polycarbonate to experiment with. The acrylic seemed to be much stiffer, which I like. It also doesn't yellow over time from UV. I'm currently experimenting with different glue options. I've seen acrylic glued at 90 degrees perpendicular with no visible seam. It looked like it was cast that way which is what I've been trying to figure out. I figured they just sanded the cut edge and polished it before gluing it, but there seems to be more to it than that.:think: I'll see if I can find the pics of what I mean.

Anyone that has worked with acrylic is welcome to pitch ideas or make suggestions!

[x88x]

I think you'd get the most performance boost for your money by upgrading just your CPU and RAM (in addition to the GPU). Drop in a Q9550 and another 4GB of RAM... The only real reason I would recommend replacing it with a Phenom II x4 or i7 system would be if you really need the extra RAM performance. Otherwise, save the money and spend it on the case. :twisted:

Or, you could always just wait for the i9 or Phenom III (or whatever AMD is gonna call it). :D

[NakuraD]

What stage are you at right now?
Any problems you are running up against?
I was just thinking, is there an issue with the acrylic flexing once the oil is in?

I'm interested to see what you are dealing with design wise. I would love to build an oil cooled setup some day when I have the space and tools. Living in an apartment really makes you miss having a shed.
I like your modifications compared to the (forget the name, P-something) version, yours looks better and will be more sturdy.

[burntheland]

I have a neat idea, but I'm not sure how much prep it would take to get it right. You could "feasibly" have two hoses exiting from the front/right bottom hand side of the water portioned part of the tank. Get a pump to pull the died water through the hoses (which would look sweet as all get out) and pump them to the back of the tank where at the top there will be something that is set to drip. Like a cylinder shaped colander so to speak. And from the side of the tank you could see the silver dyed water fall down back to the bottom. This has absolutely NO functionality. But personally, if I had the means I would definitely steal that idea from myself. lol Although where to mount the pump poses an issue. I don't think a short would be possible as long as the "drip station" were flush against the far inside wall of the tank.

[mDust]

What stage are you at right now?
Any problems you are running up against?
I was just thinking, is there an issue with the acrylic flexing once the oil is in?

I'm interested to see what you are dealing with design wise. I would love to build an oil cooled setup some day when I have the space and tools. Living in an apartment really makes you miss having a shed.
I like your modifications compared to the (forget the name, P-something) version, yours looks better and will be more sturdy.
I'm still experimenting with materials and trying to 'evolve' my original design. I have had so many crazy-awesome ideas that I had to scrap for budget reasons. However, I figure I can build it and mod it over time to perfect it...I can't wait to clean up after that mod session.
My current problems:
1) I cannot find a silver dye anywhere. This is actually turning out to be harder than I thought it would be to find.
2) Bubbles in the welded joints.
3) No dedicated workspace.
The acrylic actually doesn't flex that much although I haven't built a full scale tank yet. When I do, I'll be using 3/8" or 1/2" thick sheets. The 1/8" and 1/4" scrap I've been working with so far is plenty strong. When the tank is built, I will fill it with water and let it sit for a day or so. If it holds the water, which is roughly twice as dense as the oil, I'll know that it's safe to hold oil. I honestly have no worries about this after experimenting with the weldon. There have been several times where I could not break the weld by hand. It's very strong...

I have a neat idea...Yeah, I thought about stuff similar to that. It would look pretty badass. I may incorporate that into it at a later time. I was thinking about a very small pump from an aquarium or something and punching holes in the hose so it sort of bubbled out and floated back down all the way around the top four edges. I'd rather not risk oil currents sending the water bubbles towards anything with electricity in it, so I would use 1/8" clear acrylic to make a protective wall around the submerged parts. I'd hope that such a thin edge would go mostly unnoticed in the oil as the edges are really all that will be seen anyway. We'll have to wait and see though, I'm currently throwing around so many variables and new ideas that it's actually hindering my progress.

[burntheland]

Yeah, when you first stated "silver dye" i thought to myself..."self, where the hell is he going to find something like that?"

But really man the idea you've got here is great. This thing is going to turn out beastly!

[pheenix]

When I saw the first pic, I thought "hey cool". Then when I saw the next pic with the hood lifted, I thought "I want one".

[mDust]

When I saw the first pic, I thought "hey cool". Then when I saw the next pic with the hood lifted, I thought "I want one".
Haha, thanks.

Although I've left this thread to fend for itself for a long time, I've still been modifying the design of this thing. I don't think it will need the pump and rads anymore, but it will still be actively cooled...just using more extreme methods. Due to this I'm having to build in some interesting workarounds. I'll probably not be using mineral oil anymore. The substitute oil is still clear but it's water-thin at room temp and doesn't freeze until -200*F or so depending on which grade I end up with...hint, hint...:D I'm not entirely sure the newest design is feasible yet, so if it fails I will fall back to the simple mineral-oil-pumped-through-rads design.

I've been looking for very detailed info on acrylic such as thermal expansion/contraction and some sort of rating for how brittle it becomes with decreasing temperature. I did find the contraction information which turned out to be 'scary amounts', but since I'm not an engineer, I don't know what terms to search for in Google to find information on brittleness. Perhaps someone here can point me in the right direction?

Also, I can get argon gas from a welding supply store, but does anyone know where I can could purchase krypton gas? I'd just like to compare performance with prices. :think:

[Konrad]

Awesome concept mDust ... I especially like the enclosed lid. Good CAD models, too. :)

Have you looked at engineered dielectric fluids like Midel 7131 (http://www.midel.com/)?

You obviously want to keep your mechanical drives and I/O connectors dry. You might need to hermetically isolate them from the liquid sections or (carefully) apply conformal sealants to prevent condensation. Not a good mod to display an exposed HDD hack, lol.

I'm personally not certain your passive-circulated cooling scheme would be enough ... it seems like a good concept, but basically I'm a little skeptical about all the "hot" oil moving away from the hot parts into the rads. I think I would personally force circulation with some kind of pump, and maybe even use some strategic peltier spot cooling.

[mDust]

Awesome concept mDust ... I especially like the enclosed lid. Good CAD models, too. :)

Have you looked at engineered dielectric fluids like Midel 7131 (http://www.midel.com/)?

You obviously want to keep your mechanical drives and I/O connectors dry. You might need to hermetically isolate them from the liquid sections or (carefully) apply conformal sealants to prevent condensation. Not a good mod to display an exposed HDD hack, lol.

I'm personally not certain your passive-circulated cooling scheme would be enough ... it seems like a good concept, but basically I'm a little skeptical about all the "hot" oil moving away from the hot parts into the rads. I think I would personally force circulation with some kind of pump, and maybe even use some strategic peltier spot cooling.

Thanks.
I was looking at Halocarbon .8 Oil (http://www.halocarbon.com/Product/InertOilsGreasesWaxes/ProductListing/InertOils/PhysicalProperties.php) for its low temperature performance and cloud-point, but I'll look into Midel as it's biodegradable and non-toxic. Although, Halocarbon isn't toxic (http://www.halocarbon.com/halocarbon_media/08.pdf) either. I just don't want to have dangerous chemicals in my apartment because if a spill were to occur, I'd really not want to explain to my landlord and neighbors why I was letting Hazmat into the building.:whistler:

And that original design includes a pump with a top intake so the hottest oil pumps into the rads and is returned to the bottom of the tank.

[Konrad]

lol, I use Midel fluid in my capillary heatpipes. Vapour point is about 50C, so I didn't need to put much vacuum into them; plus I'm not especially worried about electrical failure if the tubes ever leak.

Flourinert (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fluorinert)s used to be popular, used in SGI machines I hear. Second to none in efficiency, but nasty toxic I think, and $$$ per gallon, lol. Pure oil is still a good choice; gotta keep it away from oxygen (it starts breaking down and getting "rancid"), and be careful that it doesn't have any contaminants. (Whichever fluid you use, test resistance and capacitance with meter.)

Aaah, didn't catch the pump in your description. I thought it was passively self-circulating. Impressive work.

[mDust]

Flourinerts used to be popular, used in SGI machines I hear. Second to none in efficiency, but nasty toxic I think, and $$$ per gallon, lol.
More like $$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$...it would cost around $17-18,000 for about 10 gallons. No thanks!:D

Whatever fluid I use must be completely clear and as inert as possible. It will also be a fluid that is designed for this purpose so testing shouldn't be a problem.

[Konrad]

You might be able to buy something from your local electrical utility company - or from their supplier. They use these fluids (by the barrel full) to immersion-cool high power transformers and such stuff; Midel is one (of many) commercial products engineered for that application. Flourinert is more of an hauteur de machine cooling fluid designed for elite supercomputing applications, stupidly overinflated price like anything else 3M branded.

Midel is about $8/gallon, I think. How much does purified veggy oil cost?

[Kayin]

Food grade mineral oil comes in below that.

Also, check and see if Armari is still doing reclaimed fluorinert. I had a sample of it once, but it evaporates too quickly for my taste.

Midel 7131 is always a possibility, but isn't that stuff green too?

[Konrad]

Kind of a very slight aqua-green tinge. Like a very watered down green tea. It has less green than pure water has blue. The pictures you see online tend to emphasize and exaggerate the "aquarium" effect, it's nowhere near that prominent but yeah there's still a very slight little green tinge. Colour seems to remain constant regardless of age or temperature. A few coloured CCF or LED lights easily conceal the tinge; a bluish/white light makes Midel seem "crystal clear" - most people will naturally assume the nearly-imperceptible colour tint is actually the glass instead of the fluid.

You don't even have to clean the parts afterward. Midel evaporates almost instantly (sort of like isopropyl) and leaves no film or residue or green stains or anything, but it will leave easily removed "streaks" if you force it off with compressed air. It doesn't stain paper labels green, but sometimes it blurs or lifts the inks - probably best to remove or laminate all paper. You can even immerse your PSU in midel - so they say - but I haven't had the balls to try it. You cannot immerse magnetic or optical drives and don't want to get midel into I/O connectors. You also can't immerse radio antennae - as a dielectric fluid it essentially makes your computer impervious to EMI/RFI. (Though intense radio energy will heat the fluid up, like water in a microwave oven; this isn't a real-world problem.)

It seems immune to algae, it doesn't spoil when exposed to open air (although it does slowly evaporate), it has a slight but distinctive sharp odour sort of like a cleaning agent, it's not acidic or corrosive, I haven't seen any reaction with any plastics or adhesives, but like any other fluid it can soak into and swell/deform/explode porous solids (like particle board or cheap 1970s-style "brown" PCBs - or improperly sealed electrolytic caps!).

I'm not a Midel expert - these are just my observations (answers to my own questions) from playing with midel a little bit. I've only had about 3-4 gallons of the stuff in my whole life, never immersed a full PC. I know guys who claim that Midel isn't as good as electrical oils, but I don't know why they say that.

[Kayin]

Cap issues. Midel will destroy non solid caps over time, the real dielectrics won't.

[mDust]

Cap issues. Midel will destroy non solid caps over time, the real dielectrics won't.

Thanks for that warning. Modding-god knows I've had enough problems with caps in the past.

+rep to the both of you for the suggestions and information.

[Konrad]

By "non-solid" do you basically just mean electrolytics? (And paper caps, which are long obsolete. And air-trimming caps which obviously won't work properly without air.)

I can't see any problems with ceramic, glass, poly-synthetic, tantalum, mica, etc types of caps. Assuming the midel (or other fluid) doesn't react as a solvent/corrosive for the material in question.

On the plus side, these components would all be fully immersed in a fluid which acts as a much better thermal conductor than air.

I'm a little curious how dielectric fluids work with transformers (inductors). Inductors "store" electrical energy in magnetic fields, but a dielectric fluid medium would probably severly inhibit magnetic propagation (at least in comparison with air). I would guess this changes the electrical parameters of the inductor, ie: alters the circuit. Wouldn't this reduce capabilities or efficiencies (or safety margins) for things like transformers (and PSUs which use them)?

lol, I'll personally stick with using Midel in pipes. Full immersion is just not really my thing, makes the equipment too heavy and expensive.

[Kayin]

Yeah, basically just electrolytics.

[Techno_Savage]

Gotta say I just joined and found your stuff very fascinating
and could probably go on all day talking about it but you keep saying a lack of money is preventing you from building this.

How much would it cost to build from scratch or use a fish tank instead, filling with mineral oil vs other types of oil?

Just another thought, you should look into UV reacting pigment/dye that you can put in the oil to work with so you can make the oil glow like a nuclear reactor or some type of silver dye for the water at the bottom to work with the mirrored finish you seem to be going with!

[mDust]

Gotta say I just joined and found your stuff very fascinating
and could probably go on all day talking about it but you keep saying a lack of money is preventing you from building this.

How much would it cost to build from scratch or use a fish tank instead, filling with mineral oil vs other types of oil?

Just another thought, you should look into UV reacting pigment/dye that you can put in the oil to work with so you can make the oil glow like a nuclear reactor or some type of silver dye for the water at the bottom to work with the mirrored finish you seem to be going with!/wave
Welcome to TBCS.

I need a workspace as well as money to start this project. I can't...well, shouldn't...use power tools in my apartment. Or should I?:think: Submerged PC for the greater good > annoyed neighbors and noise complaints?

I don't like the way a fish tank would look. Also, my latest planned adventures require clear insulation...such as a vacuum chamber.:twisted: And honestly, the cost of a fish tank + radiators + half a dozen fans + a pump ~ the cost of raw materials to build my own tank + a cheapo A/C unit.

The dyed oil would look cool, however, the dye would have to be non-conductive as well. I'm not sure I could find something like that.

I'll just keep redesigning this project until I find a suitable workshop...then I'll redesign it one more time. :whistler:

[x88x]

For power tools in the apartment, I've found that working in the bathroom works well for me. ...just don't do it at, like, 3am. :P Of course, my case is helped by the building being older and all-brick construction...and having a wiring closet for a neighbor. ;)

[mDust]

For power tools in the apartment, I've found that working in the bathroom works well for me. ...just don't do it at, like, 3am. :P Of course, my case is helped by the building being older and all-brick construction...and having a wiring closet for a neighbor. ;)

I have neighbors above, below and to the side with thin walls unfortunately. I get 3 noise complaints before eviction and I've already burned one of them. I'd better save the other 2 since I don't live alone. :)

[x88x]

Ouch...yeah... One of the reasons I am really happy that I'm moving soon. :D

[Techno_Savage]

I'd have to look it up but there was a place where I live that was an "open learning center"
with 2 giant robots outside so you knew where it was at, anyway it was run by some M.I.T. guys or drop outs that were a little too eccentric for my tastes but they had workspace open for people to do projects, tools and a lot of know how in engineering, mechanical, electric and just about everything you could think of and if you live in a large enough city there might be one open for you. I tried looking it up to get more info for you but it's been so long since I've been to that place I probably couldn't find it again and I can't remember exactly what the place is called so I could google it!
I'm running a little slow, probably from hunger and subway sounds REALLY GOOD right now!

[x88x]

I hadn't thought of that, but yeah, that could be a solution for working on it/experimenting. mDust, check this site (http://hackerspaces.org/wiki/) for a hackerspace near you. They're basically what T_S was describing, though the tools/space/etc available of course will vary depending on the place. I keep meaning to get up with one near me, but..well, it just never happens...

[Techno_Savage]

http://hackerspaces.org/wiki/NEST
There was hope but unfortunately it fell through!

[x88x]

There is this one (http://hackerspaces.org/wiki/The_Geek_Group) in Kalamzoo. Kinda close.

[mDust]

Wow. I had no idea that such things existed. Thanks to both of you for the links. + rep to both!:banana:

[onaid]

man that just looks awesome! how about some heat lamps in the bottom of the outside perspects and throw in some wax, like a lava lamp mate that would be wicked..

[mDust]

man that just looks awesome! how about some heat lamps in the bottom of the outside perspects and throw in some wax, like a lava lamp mate that would be wicked..

haha. it would look wicked, but it has to cool the computer, not heat it. I have been looking at various materials and their density, viscosity, thermal and electrical conductivity, etc, etc in an effort to make an effect similar to what you're thinking. I've got nothing but planning time since I don't have a workshop where I can actually build things...yet... I'm working on that though. At least with all the time I've had to think this thing through and design, re-design, and re-re-design each and every part, it should be built quite quickly and smoothly.:up:

[TheGreatSatan]

Is there gonna be a worklog or what?

[mDust]

Is there gonna be a worklog or what?I know, right?
I started playing around with materials early last summer but started getting noise complaints in my apartment so I had to stop. My landlord said to stop using power tools because the walls are thin and multiple people have complained...bunch of whiners...
I'll be moving into a house within a few weeks. It has a basement that is going to become my workshop. So within a month or two I should be able to start on this.

I was thinking of doing an advanced vacuum-chamber tank with phase-change cooling the oil bath...until I started to tally up the material and tool costs...:whistler:
I'll stick with my dual-rad design for now. I'll keep the advanced design in mind for later though.:up:

[monkeyfun]

I'll be moving into a house within a few weeks. It has a basement that is going to become my workshop. So within a month or two I should be able to start on this.


Congrats on the house! Moving into a house was the best thing for my modding. Now I can annoy my wife and dog with a power tool cacophony from my basement.

[mDust]

Congrats on the house! Moving into a house was the best thing for my modding. Now I can annoy my wife and dog with a power tool cacophony from my basement.

Thanks. I can't wait to get all the boxes off the truck and inside so I can run down to the workshop and start planning! I'm sure the noises radiating out will be enjoyed by everyone in the area!