Is it worth it?

[biggoofy]

Hey all, been looking at this sight for a while and never got around to signing up, just signed up and I've got a question. :)

My family has an old Dell Dimension 2350 and it gets used every now and then but I'm thinking about doing an overhaul.
I've already upped the ram to 1GB(max), put in a new 400W PSU, new 7200 HD, and a PCI nVidia graphics card. I was thinking about getting fresh ram, mobo, and CPU and keep it all in the same case!
So my question is, would it be worth it to replace the ram, mobo, and CPU while keeping it in the old case? Or should I just buy a new case along with the new hardware? The only reason I wanted to keep the old case is because I wanted it to be my first mod. Just wanted to add a window, colored fan, and possibly some paint. I'll try and post pics of the PC later.
Thanks in advance for any advice, sorry if it seems like I typed my life story.

[msmrx57]

Welcome to the forums.
Well, if you want to mod it there's no reason why you need to get a new case. You could mod the case you have and if you don't like how it turns out replace the case. Just my 2 cents.

[biggoofy]

Never really thought about it like that. Well looks like I have my first project.

[Kayin]

Being a Dell case, make sure that it is capable of accepting standard parts first, and be sure to make a project log!

[biggoofy]

Ya the case seems to be really small, that's why I'm looking at a m-ATX mobo. Putting together some stuff on newegg I'll post pics when I can.

[nevermind1534]

If I say the correct picture, that motherboard looks pretty weird. Would you mind taking a picture?

edit: I meant to say see, not say.

[biggoofy]

If I say the correct picture, that motherboard looks pretty weird. Would you mind taking a picture?

Ya trying to get pictures, I have family over right now for Christmas so possibly tonight.

[Twigsoffury]

Hey all, been looking at this sight for a while and never got around to signing up, just signed up and I've got a question. :)

My family has an old Dell Dimension 2350 and it gets used every now and then but I'm thinking about doing an overhaul.
I've already upped the ram to 1GB(max), put in a new 400W PSU, new 7200 HD, and a PCI nVidia graphics card. I was thinking about getting fresh ram, mobo, and CPU and keep it all in the same case!
So my question is, would it be worth it to replace the ram, mobo, and CPU while keeping it in the old case? Or should I just buy a new case along with the new hardware? The only reason I wanted to keep the old case is because I wanted it to be my first mod. Just wanted to add a window, colored fan, and possibly some paint. I'll try and post pics of the PC later.
Thanks in advance for any advice, sorry if it seems like I typed my life story.

remember Dell power supplies don't follow the ATX standard, plugging a Dell PSU into a ATX motherboard will physically damage it beyond repair
(the +12v lines and Common grounds have been flipped, thats bad)

[biggoofy]

remember Dell power supplies don't follow the ATX standard, plugging a Dell PSU into a ATX motherboard will physically damage it beyond repair
(the +12v lines and Common grounds have been flipped, thats bad)

I've already replaced the stock PSU, so I'm good.

[Luke122]

That only applies to older Dell power supplies anyways. Newer ones are all ATX compliant. :)

[Twigsoffury]

That only applies to older Dell power supplies anyways. Newer ones are all ATX compliant. :)

hahahha guess my years of beoyatchin' finally paid off..or something.

[mDust]

I just thought I'd add my 2 cents:
I wanted to mod an old Dell XPS case a bit and throw new hardware in it. When I bought the new parts, none of it fit in the case because Dell uses proprietary junk. My guess is they do this so you can't go out and replace parts yourself if something breaks. You have to buy the marked up proprietary parts from Dell, and only Dell. It probably helps them sell their warranties as well.
Anyway, measure the case and compare it to the ATX standard (http://images.google.com/imgres?imgurl=http://serghei.net/docs/hardware/mh-pc-lib-vol3-motherboards/ch01/images/01-04.jpg&imgrefurl=http://serghei.net/docs/hardware/mh-pc-lib-vol3-motherboards/ch01/016-020.html&usg=__lvoJV0ngVXAQLMStEZOZ_yMVm8I=&h=542&w=692&sz=106&hl=en&start=9&um=1&tbnid=4-taLOfzFH1LSM:&tbnh=109&tbnw=139&prev=/images%3Fq%3Datx%2Bmotherboard%2Bdimensions%26hl%3 Den%26sa%3DN%26um%3D1). If it matches then mod away! If not, you're gonna have to do a lot more modding or else get a new case. (I bought a new case.)

[biggoofy]

I just thought I'd add my 2 cents:
I wanted to mod an old Dell XPS case a bit and throw new hardware in it. When I bought the new parts, none of it fit in the case because Dell uses proprietary junk. My guess is they do this so you can't go out and replace parts yourself if something breaks. You have to buy the marked up proprietary parts from Dell, and only Dell. It probably helps them sell their warranties as well.
Anyway, measure the case and compare it to the ATX standard (http://images.google.com/imgres?imgurl=http://serghei.net/docs/hardware/mh-pc-lib-vol3-motherboards/ch01/images/01-04.jpg&imgrefurl=http://serghei.net/docs/hardware/mh-pc-lib-vol3-motherboards/ch01/016-020.html&usg=__lvoJV0ngVXAQLMStEZOZ_yMVm8I=&h=542&w=692&sz=106&hl=en&start=9&um=1&tbnid=4-taLOfzFH1LSM:&tbnh=109&tbnw=139&prev=/images%3Fq%3Datx%2Bmotherboard%2Bdimensions%26hl%3 Den%26sa%3DN%26um%3D1). If it matches then mod away! If not, you're gonna have to do a lot more modding or else get a new case. (I bought a new case.)

I'm going to try and get pictures of it tonight to see what you guys think. Also going to do some measurements.

[biggoofy]

All right here is two pictures from the side. Sorry for the quality my camera sucks. I measured the mobo best I could without taking it out and its 9"x9" give or take a few tenths of an inch.

http://img63.imageshack.us/img63/6030/img0555b.jpg

http://img63.imageshack.us/img63/4960/img0556x.jpg

[biggoofy]

Here's the link to photo's of the mobo that I want to get. Check out the overhead view and take note of where the screw holes are.
http://www.newegg.com/Product/ImageGallery.aspx?CurImage=13-128-394-TS&ISList=13-128-394-S01%2c13-128-394-S02%2c13-128-394-S03%2c13-128-394-S04%2c13-128-394-S05&S7ImageFlag=1&Item=N82E16813128394&Depa=0&WaterMark=1&Description=GIGABYTE%20GA-MA785GM-US2H%20AM3%2fAM2%2b%2fAM2%20AMD%20785G%20HDMI%20Mi cro%20ATX%20AMD%20Motherboard

Here is some documentation on the Dell I currently own. Scroll down to where it talks about removing the mobo, you will notice that the screw holes match up exactly with the new motherboard.

http://support.dell.com/support/edocs/systems/dim2350/replace.htm#1126541

So I'm pretty sure a standard m-ATX board will fit in my case without any extra modding.

[x88x]

Yeah, that Dell looks like standard mATX, so it probably won't be a problem. Also, it's actually metal, not the plastic POSs that Dell put out so many of for a while... A former roomate of mine had the same case, and iirc the only weird thing in there is the 92mm fan (which is still a standard, just an uncommon one). What PSU did you put in as a replacement? Depending on what components you want to put in, you might still need to get a new one.

[biggoofy]

Yeah, that Dell looks like standard mATX, so it probably won't be a problem. Also, it's actually metal, not the plastic POSs that Dell put out so many of for a while... A former roomate of mine had the same case, and iirc the only weird thing in there is the 92mm fan (which is still a standard, just an uncommon one). What PSU did you put in as a replacement? Depending on what components you want to put in, you might still need to get a new one.
I bought the cheapest thing I could find at tigerdirect. And yes I was thinking about getting a new one.

http://www.tigerdirect.com/applications/SearchTools/item-details.asp?EdpNo=1361838&CatId=1078

[x88x]

Yeah...I'd recommend getting a new one for the upgrade. I've never heard of DiabloTek, so idk what their stuff is like, but...I've never heard of DiabloTek, so idk what their stuff is like..if you know what I mean ;) The PSU is one of those things that you don't necessarily consider at first, but you really do not want to skimp on. I've seen too many components fried by low quality PSUs to ever trust my stuff to unknowns.

[biggoofy]

Yeah...I'd recommend getting a new one for the upgrade. I've never heard of DiabloTek, so idk what their stuff is like, but...I've never heard of DiabloTek, so idk what their stuff is like..if you know what I mean ;) The PSU is one of those things that you don't necessarily consider at first, but you really do not want to skimp on. I've seen too many components fried by low quality PSUs to ever trust my stuff to unknowns.
Ya I see what you mean. I was like "Ehh why is this guy just saying the same thing twice lol" I was looking at some Corsair models from best buy since I have a friend that can get me a discount.

[x88x]

Corsair are very good. Highly efficient and they're regularly at the top of the HardOCP stress tests.

[FuzzyPlushroom]

Ya I see what you mean. I was like "Ehh why is this guy just saying the same thing twice lol" I was looking at some Corsair models from best buy since I have a friend that can get me a discount.

Corsair are, as said, excellent. That Diablotek couldn't put out 400w with any semblance of voltage stability; I'd bet money on it - you'd probably be just as well, or better, off with the stock Dell PSU (Delta or Hipro built). Pretty sure Diablotek are the same as Powmax; both divisions are aptly named (the latter for the sound made by a cracking diode or newly independent capacitor). You may have gotten a good one, but I wouldn't bet on it. If it weighs less than the original, it's not as good.

I've had a couple of those Dell cases. A standard mATX motherboard should cheerfully mount in there, but you'll need to rewire the front LEDs/switches if you want to keep that front panel.

[biggoofy]

I've had a couple of those Dell cases. A standard mATX motherboard should cheerfully mount in there, but you'll need to rewire the front LEDs/switches if you want to keep that front panel.

I'll need to rewire because there won't be a slot for my power buttons plug on a new board? Not sure what your trying to say, but thanks for the heads up.

[biggoofy]

Ok I replaced the HD and got a fresh install of XP pro on it. Having that said, when I go to install the new motherboard will I have to also reinstall XP?
Thanks in advance.

[x88x]

I think he was referring to Dell's method of putting all the connector headers into a block. There's not really an industry standard for the arrangement of pins in the block on the MBB, so the header cable block probably won't watch the pin connections on the new MBB...and reading over that, I realize it's not really very clear what I'm talking about...hmmm....*runs to google for pics*

here we go:

MBB connector pin block:
http://img.hexus.net/v2/motherboards/amd/EPoX/8KDA3+/Pins.jpg

normal connector headers:
http://www.cluboc.net/reviews/cases/antec/sonataii/headers.jpg

Notice how normally all the headers are independent. This is because there's not (to my knowledge) an industry standard for the arrangement of the pins on the MBB. What Dell does a lot is just makes their own proprietary lump of headers all in one piece that fits exactly with their pin arrangement, which is most likely not what the pin arrangement on your new MBB will be.

[x88x]

Ok I replaced the HD and got a fresh install of XP pro on it. Having that said, when I go to install the new motherboard will I have to also reinstall XP?
Thanks in advance.

Possibly. XP is usually really good about getting dumped on new hardware, but sometimes it does freak out. I'd recommend uninstalling your graphics drivers before the switch, that might help, they're usually the most particular. Oh, and make sure you have your NIC driver on hand just in case XP doesn't have one for it.

[biggoofy]

Notice how normally all the headers are independent. This is because there's not (to my knowledge) an industry standard for the arrangement of the pins on the MBB. What Dell does a lot is just makes their own proprietary lump of headers all in one piece that fits exactly with their pin arrangement, which is most likely not what the pin arrangement on your new MBB will be.

Ya its just all clumped together, thank you for the pics and explanation. So I'm going to have to buy a new power switch and cables?(Which I assume come together). I might be able just to separate the cables, going to look at it later.

[nevermind1534]

Ya its just all clumped together, thank you for the pics and explanation. So I'm going to have to buy a new power switch and cables?(Which I assume come together). I might be able just to separate the cables, going to look at it later.

You can use the existing power switch and LEDs, but you'll need new plugs. There is a standardized arrangement on most motherboards, but Dell doesn't usually use it.

[ieatyou!]

Hey guys, my first post haha yes!
Couple thoughts:

The above posters are right, you'll definitely have to cut and strip your front panel wires and then put them in these:
http://www.pctechguide.com/images/tutorials/MBoard/LEDs.jpg
Its not too bad, i found some at a local electronics store (don't try RadioShack). Just don't cut the wires before you can find a diagram of which one goes to what (ie reboot button vs power button vs LEDs). As you can see on the above picture, most third party case manufacturers label their pin connectors, with an OEM Dell sase you are less lucky...

Also, a quick google search returned that you might have problems with some of your other cables being long enough on the 2350s, but hey thats the nature of the game, just need a soldering iron.

About your windows XP question, I think you may have trouble getting a non-Dell motherboard to accept an OEM copy of Windows. I am very shaky on this issue, It may be possible to fix this with a call to Microsoft, or I may just be totally wrong. But worth looking into.

Otherwise Good luck,
Rick

[biggoofy]

Ya my biggest concern right now is the XP installation. Don't feel like shelling out money that I don't have to.

[ieatyou!]

okay, according to this guy: http://www.hardforum.com/showthread.php?t=885079

Cut from link:
Quoted from Microsoft's OEM Builder FAQs:

"Q. Can a PC with OEM Windows XP have its motherboard upgraded and keep the same license? What if it was replaced because it was defective?

A. Generally, you may upgrade or replace all of the hardware components on your customer's computer and the end user may maintain the license for the original Microsoft® OEM operating system software, with the exception of an upgrade or replacement of the motherboard. An upgrade of the motherboard is considered to result in a "new personal computer" to which Microsoft® OEM operating system software cannot be transferred from another computer. If the motherboard is upgraded or replaced for reasons other than a defect, then a new computer has been created and the license of new operating system software is required. If the motherboard is replaced because it is defective, you do NOT need to acquire a new operating system license for the PC.

The reason for this licensing rule primarily relates to the end-user license agreement (EULA) and the support of the software covered by that EULA. The EULA is a set of usage rights granted to the end-user by the PC manufacturer and relates only to rights for that software as installed on for that particular PC. The System Builder is required to support that license the software on that individual PC. Understanding that end users, over time, upgrade their PC with different components, Microsoft needed to have one base component "left standing" that would still define that original PC. Since the motherboard contains the CPU and is the "heart and soul" of the PC, when the motherboard is replaced (for reasons other than defect) a new PC is essentially created. The original System Builder, therefore, can not be expected to support this new PC that they in effect, did not manufacture."

[x88x]

Interesting; I'd never heard MS's official justification for that BS limitation...huh. Personally I don't agree with their argument, but at least now I know someone didn't just randomly pick a component (or maybe they did... :P ).

He's right; the OEM license is technically tied to the motherboard of whatever system it was originally installed on, so technically replacing the MBB would require a new license... On the other hand, I would love to see them try and prove that any given MBB that was replaced is not 'defective'. Personally I still think that their reasoning is BS though; more than a few times I have replaced just the MBB in a system because it was the only thing holding me back.

Technical issues aside, their reasoning appears to be that they don't want the OEM to have to support hardware that they didn't sell, so as long as you don't go running to Dell for tech support, it would not seem to me that you are violating the (supposed) spirit of their reasoning, though I am totally not in any way advocating violating any license agreements! No, of course not! :whistler: Seriously though, what ever happened to "Here, you bought a license to use my software. As long as you're the only one who uses it and you only use it on one computer at a time, I don't care what you do with it."... of course then they wouldn't have an incentive to cut the price on the OEM licenses... bah! Stupid MS, if I didn't know better I would think they were trying to profit off this whole thing :P

EDIT:
[/RANT] ;)

[biggoofy]

OK thanks for researching for that me guys. Here's what I did BTW. I have a Dell Vostro laptop that came with XP Pro, I got Windows 7 Pro Upgrade. So I have a laptop with Windows 7 Pro. I have the Dimension 2350 in which I replaced the hard drive. On the new drive I used the Windows XP pro CD that came with my Vostro Laptop, I installed it and it worked fine, even updated to SP3. I'm guessing the only reason it works is because I still have the Dell Mobo in the dimension.

[mDust]

EDIT:
[/RANT] ;)Syntax Error: Missing "[RANT]"

I also wouldn't advocated breaking any stupid, technicality EULA agreements. That would be bad...and illegal...probably. But if the Windows installation disk says "DELL" on it, chances are it verifies a DELL mobo is installed before it will even allow you to access the disk. DELL and MS are stupid, but they aren't THAT stupid. That's how my OEM disk was anyhow...can't blame a guy for trying though.:D

And how dare anyone accuse Microsoft of trying to profit off any of this! Can't an enormous empire simply serve their global community for the good of mankind?

[ieatyou!]

Syntax Error: Missing "[RANT]"
DELL and MS are stupid, but they aren't THAT stupid.


I beg to differ :lick:

[biggoofy]

Here's a pic of the CD I used, note the text on the left and right hand sides of the desk. It clearly states that you can use this between computers as long as it detects it being a Dell (checking motherboard).
http://img694.imageshack.us/img694/7820/xpcd.jpg
So I'm guessing when I hook up the new mobo when it's booting I'm going to get some error and then I'm going to have to buy XP or Windows 7 again.

[x88x]

Yeah, it's not the disk that's the problem (legally; technically, occasionally OEMs like Dell will put in weird checks to make a disk only work on their hardware). The legal problem falls with the actual license, tied to a license key usually on a sticker on the machine.

[biggoofy]

Well I did Dell online chat and it turns out that I do have to buy another copy of windows. I'm fine with that, I'm just glad I looked into this before I bought anything. And does anybody know where I can buy new power cables + button for the mobo?

[biggoofy]

Got some stuff I ordered today. Just waiting on another copy of XP now.

http://thumb2.webshots.net/t/75/75/4/70/59/2441470590105289102aBrWvy_th.jpg (http://entertainment.webshots.com/photo/2441470590105289102aBrWvy)

Case was reflective, its 2GB 1066
http://thumb2.webshots.net/t/96/196/6/49/2/2977649020105289102SFKqmD_th.jpg (http://entertainment.webshots.com/photo/2977649020105289102SFKqmD)

2.9GHZ Dual-Core
http://thumb2.webshots.net/t/71/71/8/0/55/2805800550105289102EoBsxG_th.jpg (http://entertainment.webshots.com/photo/2805800550105289102EoBsxG)