water cooling temps question

[artoodeeto]

As many of you may have seen in my worklog, I just set up a new water cooling system. I have a stock-clocked AMD Phenom II 940 quad core and an Nvidia GTX285 on a single loop. I'm using Feser 1 coolant (the black stuff), Danger Den copper/acrylic CPU waterblock, Danger Den GTX285 waterblock, tygon 3/8" tubing, metal fittings, two 2" diam x 7" long reservoirs, and a Blackice GTX360 radiator with 3 low profile 1600rpm fans.

My CPU temp seems high. It idles around 40-44C, and the GPU around 60C (much cooler than it used to be). The load temps for each, at least running Far Cry 2 for a short time, are only a few degrees higher. But I've seen a lot of rigs with the same processor and idle temps in the mid 20's C. Are those maybe running higher CFM fans, bigger radiators, CPU on its own loop, etc to get the lower temps? i don't think there's anything else I can really do to mine to lower the temps: a bigger radiator and/or standard thickness fans won't fit, although I could get fans that spin faster. Just curious...thanks!

PS - left the machine idling with most of the fans air access cut off...it made an alarming difference - the CPU was idling at nearly 60C! :eek: won't do THAT again.

PPS- just occurred to me that I've got both res's sitting on top of the rad, with warm air from the rad blowing on them...basically heating the coolant up a bit after it comes out of the rad...that might have something to do with it. Any suggestions on insulating the undersides of the res's? :)

[Trace]

Try reseating the waterblock. Maybe you got a bad application of TIM. My i7 idles around 35C at 4Ghz

[Spawn-Inc]

what pump are you running?

you can try reseating your block as trace said, but i have a feeling it's a combination of the following.

-older style block, changing to the current champ i would wager at least a 3C drop load.
-your rad/fan combo are about as bad as you can get, i'm guessing the low profile fans are the Scythe Slip Stream Slim Low Profile 120mm Fan - 1600 RPM's?
that rad needs high speed, and at least 25mm thick fans to really shine. your would have been better off going with a swiftech (thinner) and some 25mm fans if space is that tight.
-if you change to distilled water (assuming you have no aluminum in your loop) you might also see a small (less then 1C) drop in temps from the feser stuff. will also have far less cleaning to do once after 6 months or so. the black is the worst for clogging up i believe.

the air coming from the rad is not an issue as far as transferring heat to the res. i doubt you would see a drop in temps moving or insulating them.



how hot is the air leaving the rad?
how long has the setup been running?

[artoodeeto]

what pump are you running?

you can try reseating your block as trace said, but i have a feeling it's a combination of the following.

-older style block, changing to the current champ i would wager at least a 3C drop load.
-your rad/fan combo are about as bad as you can get, i'm guessing the low profile fans are the Scythe Slip Stream Slim Low Profile 120mm Fan - 1600 RPM's?
that rad needs high speed, and at least 25mm thick fans to really shine. your would have been better off going with a swiftech (thinner) and some 25mm fans if space is that tight.
-if you change to distilled water (assuming you have no aluminum in your loop) you might also see a small (less then 1C) drop in temps from the feser stuff. will also have far less cleaning to do once after 6 months or so. the black is the worst for clogging up i believe.

the air coming from the rad is not an issue as far as transferring heat to the res. i doubt you would see a drop in temps moving or insulating them.



how hot is the air leaving the rad?
how long has the setup been running?

I've had it running just for a couple days. good to know on the fans - unfortunately space is so tight in there there's nothing I can do about it. My entire WC loop is sponsored hardware (including the coolant, which is why I went ahead and used it) - I didn't have a choice on the stuff from outoftheboxmods, which is where the rad came from. If I'd had a choice on it I definitely would have gone thinner/smaller (2 fan perhaps). They did send me thicker fans, but I can't use them. well....actually. Maybe I can use 2 of them, and the 3rd (middle) one will have to remain the thin one. I'll have to see if there's room. The air coming out is pretty hot, although it's not as bad if I have the fans turned up all the way, which I'm thinking is where I should leave them.
I'll likely eventually switch over to distilled water, once the black stuff has run its course...all this was sponsored equipment and this is the first current loop I've sent up (I did one years ago, but things have changed a lot since then), so I'm learning a lot.
Oh yeah, the pump is a Liang DDC, version 3.2 (Danger Den sent a version 3.25 DDC, but it doesn't work; the working pump is from outoftheboxmods).

Not sure what my metal fittings are made out of - I think a few of them might be nickel plated steel, but the ones I got from Danger Den I suspect are aluminum...very silvery and lightweight, compared to the couple of others which are darker and much heavier.

[Spawn-Inc]

ahh, sounds like it's primarily just a fan issue then. changing out just 2 of them should drop your temps a decent amount, assuming they have decent pressure and cfm.

that rad is the best performing rad in the 120mm size format, the problem is you need alot of air movement and high static/pressure fans to get it.

i'm not 100% sure, but i don't think i've ever seen DD come out with aluminum barbs. most barbs are just plated brass.

[x88x]

will also have far less cleaning to do once after 6 months or so. the black is the worst for clogging up i believe.
My 2 cents, I've been running Feser 1 black coolant for coming up on 2 years now (in June), and I have never had a problem with clogging/etc. Now that I stop to think of it, I wonder if it is just more susceptible to dielectric corrosion (happens when you have both aluminum and copper blocks) than distilled water, and that's why it sometimes gets reported as clogging stuff.


Not sure what my metal fittings are made out of - I think a few of them might be nickel plated steel, but the ones I got from Danger Den I suspect are aluminum...very silvery and lightweight, compared to the couple of others which are darker and much heavier.

Unless they switched recently, they aren't aluminum. I can't say 100%, but I would guess either nickel plated steel or chrome steel.

[Spawn-Inc]

My 2 cents, I've been running Feser 1 black coolant for coming up on 2 years now (in June), and I have never had a problem with clogging/etc. Now that I stop to think of it, I wonder if it is just more susceptible to dielectric corrosion (happens when you have both aluminum and copper blocks) than distilled water, and that's why it sometimes gets reported as clogging stuff.


have you taken apart your loop during the 2 years, same coolant? i know we talked about this before, but i forget what your response was.

also it seems to be like thermal take where most people don't have a good experience with it, but there is always a select few that don't have issues. so i just say avoid it to begin with and no worries later on.

another thread was made yesterday about feser orange, http://www.overclockers.com/forums/showthread.php?t=640570

[x88x]

Yeah, I took it apart when I switched cases a couple months ago, and there was absolutely no buildup. The tubing was stained a bit, but that's it.

[artoodeeto]

*sigh....I looked in my case. There's no way I can switch the fans out with bigger ones, there's just not enough vertical room. Well, at least for 2 of them. The real issue is I never expected to get a water cooling setup, so I didn't design the case to accomodate one. Then suddenly I find myself getting a sponsorship that I'd be an idiot to turn down, and I had to do a major jury-rig job to get everything in there.
The video card is mainly what's in the way - the waterblock nozzles are about 2mm below one fan and the PCI-E power cables are about the same distance below another. And with the reservoirs sitting on top of the rad, that eliminates all the space above it. I'll just leave my existing fans on full speed - even though I'm not getting ideal cooling performance, I'm sure it's still better than the air-cooled heater I had before. with the fans full up, the idle temp seems stable at 38C for the CPU and 45C for the GPU.

Good to know too about the coolant. I'll be prepared if it's cloggy, but hopefully will duplicate X88X's experience and not have any issues. I do rather like the black look of it...hmm...does food coloring in water cause any issues (presuming there's a silver loop or biocide in there)? Or are there specific dyes one can buy to dye one's water coolant? And thanks for the tips on the fittings - DD's site doesn't say what they're made of, but since there are issues mixing copper and aluminum parts, you're right, there's no way they'd make 'em out of aluminum and not say anything.

Incidentally, re: thermaltake, I have a 650W toughpower PSU in there, have it fully dismantled now (see...umm...page 14 or so of my worklog... :) ) and the thing works great. never had an issue. of course, I also don't really tax it either.

[diluzio91]

hmmm.... just a thought... but with the configuration you have would it be possible to mount the some more slim fans on the underside of the rad to make a push pull? that might drop your temps quite a bit...

[artoodeeto]

hmmm.... just a thought... but with the configuration you have would it be possible to mount the some more slim fans on the underside of the rad to make a push pull? that might drop your temps quite a bit...

yeah I'd been thinking that too. right now they're all under the rad, in fact 2 of them clamp the rad to the stand it's on. I could put at least one more slim fan on top, under the DD logo grille, although I'm not sure if adding 2 under the res's would bump them up too high. It might work...I'll measure when I get home.

[Spawn-Inc]

Good to know too about the coolant. I'll be prepared if it's cloggy, but hopefully will duplicate X88X's experience and not have any issues. I do rather like the black look of it...hmm...does food coloring in water cause any issues (presuming there's a silver loop or biocide in there)? Or are there specific dyes one can buy to dye one's water coolant? And thanks for the tips on the fittings - DD's site doesn't say what they're made of, but since there are issues mixing copper and aluminum parts, you're right, there's no way they'd make 'em out of aluminum and not say anything.


basically stay away from all dye's and the like. it's best to go with coloured tubing instead. primochill and feser make some good coloured tubing.

food colouring is likely to clog up to with all the extra stuff in it and the large amount you would need, pending on colour of course.

[artoodeeto]

basically stay away from all dye's and the like. it's best to go with coloured tubing instead. primochill and feser make some good coloured tubing.

food colouring is likely to clog up to with all the extra stuff in it and the large amount you would need, pending on colour of course.

Figured as much :)

Anyone have any idea if sandwiching the rad between fans will improve airflow? I know there's all sorts of contentious debate as to whether stacking fans works effectively, but everything I've seen deals with putting two fans together or at the ends of a short tube. One of the issues apparently is air coming off fan 1's blades at an angle, and causing noise/turbulence going into fan 2 that decreases its ability to move air.

But...what if there's a nice thick blackice gtx360 radiator in between? and the fans rotate in the same direction at the same speed? I want to be able to get 3 more slim fans, as I can't use the thick ones (not enough space and absolutely nothing I can do about it). the 3 I have are rated at 38cfm. I just don't want to spend another $35 on fans from performance-pcs if it's not going to work very well.

[x88x]

Anyone have any idea if sandwiching the rad between fans will improve airflow?

Very much yes! :D It's commonly referred to as a 'push-pull' configuration..which reminds me, I need to order 6 more fans for my loop.. The issue with spacing for stacking fans normally is the turbulence, and that is thrown out the window by the radiator fins.

[artoodeeto]

sweet! ordered 3 more. I sure hope they fit...I know I can fit at least one of them on top of the rad. Not positive on the other 2 though, but what the hey :) I'll figure out somewhere to use 'em.

[Spawn-Inc]

yes, i personally only run push pull rad setups.

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