iPhone 4 - Now thin enough to cut you!

[Zephik]

http://www.engadget.com/2010/06/07/iphone-4-announced/

It's only 0.04" thicker than the iPod Touch. That's a good thing, in my opinion. Because now you can buy a case without adding uncomfortable bulk.

It's also got a crazy high resolution display. Supposedly higher than what the human eye can distinguish. Sweet deal, true or not.

The steel band itself is actually multifunctional in that it doubles as the antenna. It now has wireless-n, too. Finally.

And you can also buy these cool Bumper case things, for if you want a bit more color, but without adding a case. You can see them at the bottom of the product page.

http://www.apple.com/iphone/specs.html

[dr.walrus]

sure, and you can video call, so long as you're calling another iphone 4 and you're both on wifi!

seriously, wtf is with this ****

[Zephik]

sure, and you can video call, so long as you're calling another iphone 4 and you're both on wifi!

seriously, wtf is with this ****

What's the problem, exactly? The old iPhones don't have a front facing camera and who isn't going to upgrade? You'd have to be either stupid or too poor not to upgrade.

WiFi makes sense though. That video calling is going to EAT bandwidth like I eat cake. I wouldn't use it over cellular even if I could for that reason alone. AT&T can't handle the traffic alone, either, which we already knew. They're having problems NOW, without video calling.

I imagine once the contract ends with AT&T and the iPhone get's spread around more to other carriers, video calling will be more unrestricted as the pressure won't be pin-pointed onto one company like it is right now, hint why AT&T is having usage issues right now.

But honestly, who care's about video calling? Look at all the other features. This thing is pretty awesome. Not as awesome as some other phones, but still awesome none-the-less.

[Oneslowz28]

What's the problem, exactly? You'd have to be either stupid or too poor not to upgrade.

Or you could do the totally smart thing and run over your iPhone and buy an android based HTC and not give any $$ to apple and their ring of thugs who like to break down journalist's doors.

[SgtM]

I wish I could upgrade to this. I'm on an iPhone 3g right now that I got just before the 3gs came out. I have to wait a year. I'm stoked about the rear camera though. 5mp and 720p at 30 fps.

[Diamon]

We've been able to make video calls over regular nets for several years here in europe. But hardly anyone is using it except those who use hand signals instead of vocal language.

[SXRguyinMA]

I'm not getting another until it supports flash - which isn't going to happen. so F*** YOU APPLE :D

[dr.walrus]

What's the problem, exactly? The old iPhones don't have a front facing camera and who isn't going to upgrade? You'd have to be either stupid or too poor not to upgrade.


Because we're being told 'it's a revolution' and it doesn't do what phones did five years ago. Sure, lots of nice toys, but I would never buy a device that is sold with deliberately missing features, be told 'you don't need that anyway' and then you're forced to buy the new model 12 months later because it includes the features you wanted in the first place.

The first iphone was sold without 3g ffs. When it was totally standard.

[Luke122]

Or you could do the totally smart thing and run over your iPhone and buy an android based HTC and not give any $$ to apple and their ring of thugs who like to break down journalist's doors.

Journalist or not, if you knowingly purchased stolen merchandise, you get what you deserve. The guy who found it was in the wrong in the first place for selling it, but Gizmodo should have just reported it to Apple when they were offered to buy it.

The end.

[dr.walrus]

Journalist or not, if you knowingly purchased stolen merchandise, you get what you deserve. The guy who found it was in the wrong in the first place for selling it, but Gizmodo should have just reported it to Apple when they were offered to buy it.

The end.

While I despise Apple, I have to agree to this. It was the corporation's property and in terms of value to a corporation, it was a very valuable device. And it was stolen.

It wasn't Apple that raided the house. It was the police.

Doesn't mean I'd buy one! I love my Desire.

[Diamon]

From what I've heard the guy who found it actually tried to return it but the people at apple he talked to were so rude and thought he was lying so he went ahead and sold it instead.

Besides, what are the odds of losing a prototype iphone? It was surely a "very" clever marketing trick.

[x88x]

It's also got a crazy high resolution display. Supposedly higher than what the human eye can distinguish. Sweet deal, true or not.

I will grant that I'm impressed with the new display. They took their sweet time about it, but that does sound like a nice panel (960x640 3.5" IPS). I highly doubt it's higher than the human eye can distinguish though. Doesn't mean it won't look sweet, but that's a pretty heavy claim...that has been made several times too many for me to take it seriously at all.


What's the problem, exactly? The old iPhones don't have a front facing camera and who isn't going to upgrade? You'd have to be either stupid or too poor not to upgrade.

Or you just can't justify blowing another $200-$300 on a phone every year or two. And yes, I know plenty of people who fall into "can't afford it" or "can't justify it". This is a perfect example of one reason why so many of us dislike Apple; they convince their customers that they absolutely have to buy the new [insert product name here], and that if they don't, they're idiots. Personally I'm perfectly happy with my N900..and I have no intention of buying any Apple products at any point in the forseeable future.

[Luthien]

WiFi makes sense though. That video calling is going to EAT bandwidth like I eat cake. I wouldn't use it over cellular even if I could for that reason alone. AT&T can't handle the traffic alone, either, which we already knew. They're having problems NOW, without video calling.

I imagine once the contract ends with AT&T and the iPhone get's spread around more to other carriers, video calling will be more unrestricted as the pressure won't be pin-pointed onto one company like it is right now, hint why AT&T is having usage issues right now.



Where I live, AT&T isn't even 3g yet. Not only that, but the "Edge" internet that is available here never works right. I called them repeatedly about getting it fixed and they would not do it. They also have no real plans to change to 3g here. I actually paid to get out of my contract with them and went to Verizon. It was 5 numbers I had to pay for (4 phones & the internet) Expensive, but worth it because AT&T is THAT bad...

[dr.walrus]

Besides, what are the odds of losing a prototype iphone? It was surely a "very" clever marketing trick.

Rubbish. I used to work for a sub-contractor of a Sony Ericsson and I got prototypes all the time, pre- public release. I once got mugged and almost lost a P990 about 3 months before it was announced to the public.

We had drawers full of the bloody things. Nothing like Apple prototype security, admittedly, but these things happen all the time.

A friend sent me this. Loved it:
http://i.imgur.com/q79oD.jpg

[x88x]

Hahahaha, nice. I love FUUUU. :D

[Zephik]

I will grant that I'm impressed with the new display. They took their sweet time about it, but that does sound like a nice panel (960x640 3.5" IPS). I highly doubt it's higher than the human eye can distinguish though. Doesn't mean it won't look sweet, but that's a pretty heavy claim...that has been made several times too many for me to take it seriously at all.

Yeah, I think what they should have said, or maybe what they actually meant, was that this display's resolution is so high that anything higher would be unnoticeable. or maybe it is higher than what we can notice? It does look as smooth and perfect as I think I could ever be able to tell. Anything higher I think would be pretty unnoticeable and it could be that the definition is "technically" higher than what we're able to notice. Like it's 326ppi, but the human eye doesn't notice a difference over, like, 315ppi. (just saying for an example)

But yeah, who cares really? lol It looks amazing.


Or you just can't justify blowing another $200-$300 on a phone every year or two. And yes, I know plenty of people who fall into "can't afford it" or "can't justify it". This is a perfect example of one reason why so many of us dislike Apple; they convince their customers that they absolutely have to buy the new [insert product name here], and that if they don't, they're idiots. Personally I'm perfectly happy with my N900..and I have no intention of buying any Apple products at any point in the foreseeable future.

Well as for the iPhone, it's a major update every two years. So I always say skip the in between models and wait every two years for the major update. This one is a major update. There are plenty of great reasons to justify buying this one, too. Higher resolution screen that looks literally perfect, wireless-n, longer battery life, better camera and camera capabilities, front-facing camera, led flash, A4 processor (considerably faster than snapdragon, isn't it?), and then of course the iPod Touch slim chassis, which I personally hate alone by itself, but with a case it makes for the perfect thickness. The cases with the old iPhones always felt too thick to me, so I think it's a pretty nice feature.

Aren't most of those features currently unique to this new iPhone too? I really don't know, which is why I'm asking. The only phone aside from the iPhone that I've been keeping my eye on is the Droid series, like the Incredible. (which is a fairly accurate name, but is it still?)

In any case, I really don't think (this time anyways) that Apple is trying to convince people to buy their product when people really, basically, shouldn't. Like with last year's 3GS, for a good example. I think their product this year actually sell's itself without their help. From what I've read so far, the iPhone 4 seems awesome. (I'm not a apple fanboy, btw. I look at a product and if I think it's good, then I say so. I hate that I even have to say that, people are so knee-jerk "you're just a fanboy" these days that you pretty have to say it. And like I mentioned above, I haven't been keeping up too much with other smart-phones lately. I know the Incredible has a better camera, but I think that the iPhone 4 beats it overall?)

Edit: Just thought of the best example of all of Apple trying to get people to buy their sub-par product while labeling it as something amazing. The iPad. **** the iPad. It really does suck. The ONLY redeemable quality is the very well developed and polished App store (walled garden or not, I still think it beats the Droid marketplace or whatever its called.) and the fact that it's a Tablet. (Which I really couldn't care about, honestly. Clam-shell form factor makes so much more sense to me, in 90% of situations. Put it into a more powerful base and have it removable, now that's an actually good idea. Seen that before, actually, but I don't think it ever came to fruition.)

[dr.walrus]

Aren't most of those features currently unique to this new iPhone too?

Unique features like:

Calling?
Texting?
MMS?
GPS?
Copy/paste?
3d acceleration?
An app store?
Music storage?
USB connectivity?
Multi-touch?

What iPhone features have ever, EVER been unique? First model, multi-touch capcitative screen, I'll give you that much, but there's only a spattering of true innovations. And that phone wasn't 3G, didn't have MMS, no copy-paste, all standard in much cheaper speaker-phones. You couldn't even change the battery... oh wait, you still can't!

Okay, it's a nice package with a nice interface, but it is NOT the second coming of jesus christ and it is NOT revolutionary.

They have a few specs better than the competition but what else?

Oh, the logo! I get it now!

[x88x]

A4 processor (considerably faster than snapdragon, isn't it?)
Was that a question? If so, it's a good one. To my knowledge, the only other device the A4 has been in is the incredibly neutered iPad, so really, who knows how good or bad it is? They're both 1Ghz processors based on the ARM Cortex-A8 (if you're referencing the 1Ghz Snapdragon currently in use. There's a 1.5Ghz Snapdragon in production now.). So, really, there's no way to truly compare the two short of porting Android to the iPhone or iPad (pretty sure there's a team working on that somewhere).


Aren't most of those features currently unique to this new iPhone too? I really don't know, which is why I'm asking.
Not really. Apple's PR department is great at making people think this (iPhone 1G is a prime example), but it's never really been the case. For the new one, let's see.

Disclaimer: Before I start this, I'm not an Apple hater. I dislike some of their business practices (and loath their PR department), but I give credit where credit is due...but I also do not hesitate to point out where it's not..

960x640 3.5" IPS screen
Ok, I'll give them that..but now that Foxconn is making it for Apple, I'm sure it's just a matter of time before it shows up in products from some of their other clients. And no, don't think for a second that Apple has a patent on the LCD...I will bet you money that was all Foxconn...or 3M...or someone... Anyways, point is, Apple doesn't make LCDs.

802.11n
I'll concede this one too, though it's really because (imo) there's no market draw for it. It's not a technical issue, it's a cost/benefit issue. When only probably <10% of the market is using 802.11n, and even fewer of them actually need it, there's not a whole lot of incentive for a manufacturer to move from g. That being said, I think more and more wireless chip manufacturers will move to n only, just for cost reasons. Once the demand for n chips hits a certain critical mass it'll be cheaper to just move all production over to n chips and stop making g chips.

longer battery life
It's better than the 3GS, sure, but not really all that remarkable. I don't know the numbers, but I'm pretty sure my N900 does at least pretty close to most of the metrics listed on Apple's site.

5MP main camera, VGA front-facing camera
Completely unremarkable today.

front-facing camera
Again, completely unremarkable.

led flash
Been done by plenty others before.

A4 proc
Well yeah, no crap. They make the thing and only put it in their own products.

Metal band serving as the antenna
Ok Apple, I'm hoping you're at least not telling us everything here...there's a lot more to antenna design than just sticking a lump of metal to it.

3-axis gyro
Ok, that's a cool addition. I'd really like to know where they're sourcing a 3-axis gyro small and cheap enough to put in there.

Video out capabilities
Nokia N900 does it.

multitasking
a) About damn time.
b) Cry me a river. :P

I look over their 'features' page, and nothing else on it is at all unique.

Basically, to sum it up, big win on the screen. Long overdue, but appreciated. It's not as big a win as they make it out to be (only 60% more pixels than my N900's screen at 800x480, for example), but a win nonetheless.

[Zephik]

Apple's Custom A4 Processor. Pretty sure that's unique? The best processor out there was the Snapdragon and this is supposedly faster.

Front and Back Facing Camera + Video Calling. What phone has that and can do that? I'm being honest here, I don't know.

Wireless N. What other device out there has Wireless N?

The Highest Definition Display I've ever seen. Do any other phones have this?

Long Lasting Battery Life. What other phone gets the same amount of, or better, battery life?

Ultra-Slim Chassis. Again, what phone's out there are THIS thin? Like I've mentioned before, even if you don't like the thinness, you will once you buy a case for it.

By the way, I don't think anyone here ever called it revolutionary. Hell, I don't even know of any phone aside from the very first Blackberry's and the first iPhone that were truly revolutionary.

But yeah, what phone does at least all of that? If it doesn't do at least all of that, then that means that the iPhone 4 is currently the best phone out on the market, over-all. If only by technical specs. User opinion and need's will differ, of course. But we aren't comparing anything other than specs right now.

[x88x]

Apple's Custom A4 Processor. Pretty sure that's unique? The best processor out there was the Snapdragon and this is supposedly faster.
That's the problem. It's supposedly faster. We have no way of comparing them with anything like a fair and balanced test because of Apple's stranglehold on their products.


Front and Back Facing Camera + Video Calling. What phone has that and can do that? I'm being honest here, I don't know.
N900 at the very least. I'm not sure about other phones.


Wireless N. What other device out there has Wireless N?
Apparently 10 by LG and Samsung. (http://wifinetnews.com/archives/2010/03/first_10_phones_with_80211n_certified.html) What are they? IDK, they haven't been released yet. In general though, I'll refer you to my previous statements.


Ultra-Slim Chassis. Again, what phone's out there are THIS thin? Like I've mentioned before, even if you don't like the thinness, you will once you buy a case for it.
Personally I'm not a big fan of the whole 'thinness' fad. But then, that's onto personal preference again. :P


But yeah, what phone does at least all of that? If it doesn't do at least all of that, then that means that the iPhone 4 is currently the best phone out on the market, over-all. If only by technical specs. User opinion and need's will differ, of course. But we aren't comparing anything other than specs right now.
It doesn't have a physical keyboard. I require a physical keyboard on my phone, therefore this isn't the best phone. ;) Again personal preference, but there you are.

EDIT:
Also, the original iPhone was 'revolutionary' for the same reason that the original iPod was 'revolutionary'. Not because they did much new technically, but because they made it popular. That's almost always been Apple's business plan, and that's why they're so successful. Wait until a technology has already been market tested by other companies, build on their work, and make something shiny that becomes incredibly popular.

[Zephik]

Was that a question? If so, it's a good one. To my knowledge, the only other device the A4 has been in is the incredibly neutered iPad, so really, who knows how good or bad it is? They're both 1Ghz processors based on the ARM Cortex-A8 (if you're referencing the 1Ghz Snapdragon currently in use. There's a 1.5Ghz Snapdragon in production now.). So, really, there's no way to truly compare the two short of porting Android to the iPhone or iPad (pretty sure there's a team working on that somewhere).

1.5GHz? **** YEAH! Are there any devices using it right now or coming up within this year?

And good point, by the way. I think it's supposed to by like 10% to 40% faster, but that's within the walled garden of Apple. So who actually knows for sure.

Someone needs to test that thing somehow asap. I wonder if it's more energy efficient? Might be how the iPad gets such long battery life. ...well, that and the whole walled garden thing sure helps. After I... tweaked... my iPod, the battery life dropped by about 20%.



960x640 3.5" IPS screen
Ok, I'll give them that..but now that Foxconn is making it for Apple, I'm sure it's just a matter of time before it shows up in products from some of their other clients. And no, don't think for a second that Apple has a patent on the LCD...I will bet you money that was all Foxconn...or 3M...or someone... Anyways, point is, Apple doesn't make LCDs.

802.11n
I'll concede this one too, though it's really because (imo) there's no market draw for it. It's not a technical issue, it's a cost/benefit issue. When only probably <10% of the market is using 802.11n, and even fewer of them actually need it, there's not a whole lot of incentive for a manufacturer to move from g. That being said, I think more and more wireless chip manufacturers will move to n only, just for cost reasons. Once the demand for n chips hits a certain critical mass it'll be cheaper to just move all production over to n chips and stop making g chips.

longer battery life
It's better than the 3GS, sure, but not really all that remarkable. I don't know the numbers, but I'm pretty sure my N900 does at least pretty close to most of the metrics listed on Apple's site.

5MP main camera, VGA front-facing camera
Completely unremarkable today.

True. The latest camera is the 8MP isn't it? The Incredible has it I believe. But then, the Incredible also doesn't have two camera's plus the more expensive wireless-n chip, so if that's the drawback for those thing's, I think I'm okay with it. Depending on the lens, it might take just as good of pictures. After 5MP, it's really all about quality of components, not MP. So we'll see I suppose. Here's hoping, anyway. The iPhone has always sucked ball-sack for picture taking, even next to comparable devices.

front-facing camera
Again, completely unremarkable.

Is it? How so? I could actually take pictures of myself and see what I'm doing for once. No more multitudes of re-takes because I couldn't see what I was doing. Also, video calling is nice to have, although I doubt I'll ever use it. But maybe for the Soldiers it'll be nice, or for other people. There are also App usage to consider, as well. The mirror app will finally work for once, although that's a horrible example. It should be interesting to see how developers utilize this new feature.

led flash
Been done by plenty others before.

Truth. But not by the iPhone. I was mentioning it as an upgrade incentive, not a new customer incentive.

A4 proc
Well yeah, no crap. They make the thing and only put it in their own products.

Again, I mentioned it as an upgrade incentive. Which, if it is better than the Snapdragon, I certainly think it is. There are way's to breach walled garden's, as well. But you made a good point above, so we'll see I suppose.

Metal band serving as the antenna
Ok Apple, I'm hoping you're at least not telling us everything here...there's a lot more to antenna design than just sticking a lump of metal to it.

Yeah seriously, I'm quite curious about this. I didn't mention it because I'm... optimistic, I guess you could say. lol (Honestly, it doesn't sound like a good idea...)

3-axis gyro
Ok, that's a cool addition. I'd really like to know where they're sourcing a 3-axis gyro small and cheap enough to put in there.

This is new? I didn't even know that. I thought they all had that? I think I must be confused here...

Video out capabilities
Nokia N900 does it.

multitasking
a) About damn time.
b) Cry me a river. :P

I look over their 'features' page, and nothing else on it is at all unique.

Basically, to sum it up, big win on the screen. Long overdue, but appreciated. It's not as big a win as they make it out to be (only 60% more pixels than my N900's screen at 800x480, for example), but a win nonetheless.

I'm not sure which I'd buy, honestly. The N900 or the iPhone 4. They're both pretty damn sweet... But I do love Keyboards... but I also love the App Store (with the wall's breached)... etc etc.

We need to compile a gigantic and in-depth comparison within a nice comparison table. ...actually, that's not a bad idea. Tons of people look at those things, it might help give us some extra traffic if we post it around. Hmmm..

Edit: http://www.starryhope.com/nokia-n900/2009/15-ways-nokias-n900-is-better-than-apples-iphone-and-5-ways-its-not/

Well, compared to the old iPhone anyways, I'd certainly go with the N900. Does it have an App store at all?? That's one of the main things I like. Although it's not a deal-breaker if it doesn't.

Edit2: No multi-touch? Ouch. But aside from that... dammit, the N900 is like THIS close to being perfect. Seriously. Do they have plans for a new updated model anytime soon??

[dr.walrus]

Apple's Custom A4 Processor. Pretty sure that's unique? The best processor out there was the Snapdragon and this is supposedly faster. Well, no. It's a system on a chip, uses the SAME core processor as the snapdragon, clocked at the same speed, with a dirrefernt graphics chip. The HTC Mondrian will have a 1.3GHz processor.

Same CPU, same speed


Front and Back Facing Camera + Video Calling. What phone has that and can do that? I'm being honest here, I don't know.
Been on most phones worth over £200 for the last 4 years or so


Wireless N. What other device out there has Wireless N?
Samsung m100s. Desire / Nexus one has it, will probably become active when 2.2 goes live



The Highest Definition Display I've ever seen. Do any other phones have this?

That's probably the highest on the market right now, admittedly. But it's not earth-shattering. Here's a scaled comparison:
http://img821.imageshack.us/img821/3742/comp.jpg
(http://img821.imageshack.us/i/comp.jpg/)

Uploaded with ImageShack.us (http://imageshack.us)





Long Lasting Battery Life. What other phone gets the same amount of, or better, battery life?
You can't make comparisons without independent testing. However, released figures show:

The iPhone 4 has 300 hours standby time, 40 hours music play, 10 hours video play and Wi-Fi browsing, six hours 3G browsing and seven hours 3G talk time.
A comparison of standby battery life shows that the iPhone is still trailing the HTC Desire (360 hours), Sony Ericsson Xperia X10 (400 hours), Nokia N97 (430 hours), Sony Ericsson Vivaz (440 hours) and BlackBerry Bold 9700 (408 hours) all having longer standby battery life.

[source: http://www.mobileshop.com/blog/mobile-phone-news/the-iphone-4-battery-memory-and-processor/]





Ultra-Slim Chassis. Again, what phone's out there are THIS thin? Like I've mentioned before, even if you don't like the thinness, you will once you buy a case for it.

I had a sony ericsson w880 YEARS ago that was thinner than this.


By the way, I don't think anyone here ever called it revolutionary.

STEVE JOBS HAS BEEN SAYING IT FOR WEEKS!


But yeah, what phone does at least all of that? If it doesn't do at least all of that, then that means that the iPhone 4 is currently the best phone out on the market, over-all.

No. You're warping the argument by picking features YOU like. HTC desire/nexus one are very, very similarly specced, and have a lot of features the iphone doesn't. And useful ones. Expandable memory. Flash (soon). Sense UI. Trackball/trackpad. 100000:1 contrast ratio (way better than the iphone).

I'm not arguing because I hate Apple (though I do). I'm arguing because you're dealing with absolutes, and calling something 'the best'. It's subjective. My HTC desire is great, it's one of the best phones out there, but i would never call any phone the 'best'. Because that implies criteria, which aren't specificied.

[x88x]

1.5GHz? **** YEAH! Are there any devices using it right now or coming up within this year?
According to Wikipedia (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Snapdragon_%28processor%29), they were first tested in late 2009, and are expected to be seen in new devices in the second half of 2010.



3-axis gyro
Ok, that's a cool addition. I'd really like to know where they're sourcing a 3-axis gyro small and cheap enough to put in there.

This is new? I didn't even know that. I thought they all had that? I think I must be confused here...
Yup, previous generations had a 3-axis accelerometer and a compass, but no gyro.


We need to compile a gigantic and in-depth comparison within a nice comparison table. ...actually, that's not a bad idea. Tons of people look at those things, it might help give us some extra traffic if we post it around. Hmmm..
Not a bad idea, that.


Well, compared to the old iPhone anyways, I'd certainly go with the N900. Does it have an App store at all?? That's one of the main things I like. Although it's not a deal-breaker if it doesn't.
Yup, there's the Nokia-run repositories, plus the Ovi Store (http://store.ovi.com/?lang=en&country=US). There was a lot of complaining from the peanut gallery around release that there wasn't anything in the Ovi store, but the whole point of it is that it's entirely 3rd party and user-generated apps, so no, there wouldn't be anything at launch.



In a perfect world, this is what I would like to see happen:
Nokia N910 comes out in late 2010, with:
1.5Ghz Snapdragon
1GB true RAM (instead of the shared scheme like it is in the N900. It's nice, but I can definitely notice when it starts using the virtual RAM)
Screen from the iPhone 4
Google Voice integration
Support for the 2100Mhz GSM band and Verizon's CDMA bands.
WiMAX support
...a little bit thinner, and a tighter, more solid camera lens cover, that would be about perfect.

[x88x]

dr.walrus hit on something I honestly forgot the iPhone was missing... removable storage. The N900 has 32GB onboard (max on the iPhone), plus a micro-SDHC slot. So, I'm running with 48GB of storage on my phone right now. Completely aside from the extra storage, from a geek's point of view, having a storage volume to mess around on that it doesn't matter if you royally screw up...priceless.

[dr.walrus]

dr.walrus hit on something I honestly forgot the iPhone was missing... removable storage. The N900 has 32GB onboard (max on the iPhone), plus a micro-SDHC slot. So, I'm running with 48GB of storage on my phone right now. Completely aside from the extra storage, from a geek's point of view, having a storage volume to mess around on that it doesn't matter if you royally screw up...priceless.

well, I can take 32GB in mine. And as for backups, well, I like the idea of my user data being on a separate drive!

with removeable memory - safely remove - bah who cares!

[x88x]

well, I can take 32GB in mine.

I'm sure mine can take 32GB, they just weren't out yet when I got mine. ;) And tbh, I don't need another 16GB...and the 32GB cards are still too expensive for me to justify buying one 'just because'.

[dr.walrus]

I'm sure mine can take 32GB, they just weren't out yet when I got mine. ;) And tbh, I don't need another 16GB...and the 32GB cards are still too expensive for me to justify buying one 'just because'.

KICKSTAND! YOU FORGOT THE KICKSTAND!

[x88x]

Hahaha, yeah..there is that. Though, tbh, it's not really that bad. It works great for propping it up when I want to have it sit under my monitor and still see it well. It wouldn't work too well for watching a movie on, but I've never done that anyways.

One other thing I forgot: speakers.
The N900 has stereo speakers that are loud and clear enough that not only does it make a great speakerphone, I can use them for playing music...loud enough that I don't keep it all the way up. And even with the speakers turned all the way up, the sound is clear and undistorted.

Also, I forget if I mentioned this, but I noticed the iPhone 4 has VGA and component video out up to 1024x768. I think this is a great feature missing from too many mainstream stuff. The N900 has component video out, cloning the display, but being able to to a higher res and having VGA would be a nice addition.

Oh, and one last thing (for now). :P Host USB support. Unfortunately, this is something that doesn't seem to be possible on the N900, but several of the Android phones support it, and as a geek it would be a great addition. Heck, pair VGA output, USB host mode, and the 1.5Ghz Snapdragon, and you would basically have a nettop that you can hook up when you aren't using it as a phone. :D

[Zephik]

Well, no. It's a system on a chip, uses the SAME core processor as the snapdragon, clocked at the same speed, with a different graphics chip. The HTC Mondrian will have a 1.3GHz processor.

"Will have" is perfectly fine and all, I mean, we'll have a 20GHz mobile processor's someday. But that's kind of beside the point, isn't it? Lets try and focus on the here and now.

Same CPU, same speed

Been on most phones worth over £200 for the last 4 years or so
Samsung m100s. Desire / Nexus one has it, will probably become active when 2.2 goes live

Most? Really? List them. By the way, the Nexus One does not have a secondary camera. If you're talking about video calling, well, without a front facing camera, I can't say I really care about that feature. What's the point of video calling someone if only they cant see you? And what if you want to go silent and txt instead of speak?

That's probably the highest on the market right now, admittedly. But it's not earth-shattering. Here's a scaled comparison:
http://img821.imageshack.us/img821/3742/comp.jpg
(http://img821.imageshack.us/i/comp.jpg/)What's this exactly? I was talking about the crispness and clearness and smoothness of pictures, text, etc etc thanks to the new screen tech.

For example, during the Apple video, they compared pictures on the old iPhone (which has one of the best displays compared to most phones) and the iPhone 4. There was a large difference. Pictures looked PERFECT. Lines and everything looked ultra-smooth, to the point where if it were any better, you wouldn't notice as it's humanely impossible.

You can't make comparisons without independent testing. However, released figures show:

The iPhone 4 has 300 hours standby time, 40 hours music play, 10 hours video play and Wi-Fi browsing, six hours 3G browsing and seven hours 3G talk time.
A comparison of standby battery life shows that the iPhone is still trailing the HTC Desire (360 hours), Sony Ericsson Xperia X10 (400 hours), Nokia N97 (430 hours), Sony Ericsson Vivaz (440 hours) and BlackBerry Bold 9700 (408 hours) all having longer standby battery life.

[source: http://www.mobileshop.com/blog/mobile-phone-news/the-iphone-4-battery-memory-and-processor/]

You only compared standby times. What about usage times?

I had a sony ericsson w880 YEARS ago that was thinner than this.

That's relevant how? They're completely different phones. We're talking smart-phones here.

STEVE JOBS HAS BEEN SAYING IT FOR WEEKS!

I don't care?? Stop bringing it up HERE. On THESE forums. We're not retarded, dude. We know this isn't revolutionary. You keep saying it like it's relevant information to us somehow. We're not sheep here, we can think for ourselves. That's why I said "By the way, I don't think anyone here ever called it revolutionary." I was referring to us, here, on these forums.

Steve could have been talking strictly about the iPhone, btw. This iPhone compared to the last... well, revolutionary is a stretch, but it is pretty different.

No. You're warping the argument by picking features YOU like. HTC desire/nexus one are very, very similarly specced, and have a lot of features the iphone doesn't. And useful ones. Expandable memory. Flash (soon). Sense UI. Trackball/trackpad. 100000:1 contrast ratio (way better than the iphone).

no, I'm not. I'm comparing features with similar phones. I'm a fan of the best of the best, I'm not a fanboy. So why would I do that? I'm not. I'm not picking features *I* like. I'm LISTING THEM and asking you guys, if there are other phones out there with those features or better. Like the Droid Incredible, for example, has a much better camera (8MP vs 5MP). But overall, I'd easily say the iPhone 4 or even the Nokia N900 is a much better smart-phone.

So, if there is a phone out there that has everything the iPhone 4 has, or more, then list it. The N900 is a great start. The Nexus One is another, although compared to the iPhone 4, it has what? Expandable memory and higher contrast ratio, that's about it I believe. So... compared to a huge app store, compared to a better display (lower contrast ratio yes, but it's still more than adequate and mixed with better picture, it is the better option), compared to wireless n, compared to better battery life, compared to back and front facing camera's... Yeah, see? The iPhone 4 IS better than the Nexus One OVERALL. One or two factually true feature's that you really like doesn't replace the lacking of numerous other features.

If you decide to forgo all of the iPhone's numerous benefits over the Nexus One in favor of the Nexus One's expandable memory and higher contrast ratio, that is your preference and opinion. It hardly belongs in a comparison argument aside from a simple mention of those two features. Sense UI, Trackball, Possibly Flash in the future someday... that all is complete opinion. One is not better than the other, factually speaking anyways, and thus doesn't belong in a comparison argument.


I'm not arguing because I hate Apple (though I do). I'm arguing because you're dealing with absolutes, and calling something 'the best'. It's subjective. My HTC desire is great, it's one of the best phones out there, but i would never call any phone the 'best'. Because that implies criteria, which aren't specificied.

It is subjective, to a point. Like a preference of a trackball or Sense Ui. But things like WiFi-N compared to WiFi-G is hardly subjective. It's factually true. Most of what I've been trying to compare to other phones is factual, only a small portion of it is subjective.


According to Wikipedia (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Snapdragon_%28processor%29), they were first tested in late 2009, and are expected to be seen in new devices in the second half of 2010.

Oh please update the N900 with one of these... unless its a ridiculous drain on battery life. But... the 600MHz is a bit dated.. so..


Yup, previous generations had a 3-axis accelerometer and a compass, but no gyro.

OH. The Gyro. What does that do exactly?

Not a bad idea, that.

I tried doing one in Paint just now. It sucked. lol I'll contribute once it's made all nice and pretty, but I'm incapable of making it.

Yup, there's the Nokia-run repositories, plus the Ovi Store (http://store.ovi.com/?lang=en&country=US). There was a lot of complaining from the peanut gallery around release that there wasn't anything in the Ovi store, but the whole point of it is that it's entirely 3rd party and user-generated apps, so no, there wouldn't be anything at launch.

What's it like now? I'm mostly worried about the N900's lack of hit with the general populace. That makes a huge difference in a device's app store. But then.. I do have my iPod Touch still..


In a perfect world, this is what I would like to see happen:
Nokia N910 comes out in late 2010, with:
1.5Ghz Snapdragon
1GB true RAM (instead of the shared scheme like it is in the N900. It's nice, but I can definitely notice when it starts using the virtual RAM)
Screen from the iPhone 4
Google Voice integration
Support for the 2100Mhz GSM band and Verizon's CDMA bands.
WiMAX support
...a little bit thinner, and a tighter, more solid camera lens cover, that would be about perfect.

That would be very perfect. I'd also like Wireless-N, 8MP Camera, and usage time comparable to the iPhone 4's. That won't happen, but hey, we're just dreaming right now aren't we?

Oh and also cheap upgrade prices for all of the original adopters. Gotta share the love, dreaming or not, right? :p

[dr.walrus]

"Will have" is perfectly fine and all, I mean, we'll have a 20GHz mobile processor's someday. But that's kind of beside the point, isn't it? Lets try and focus on the here and now.

'Will have' meaning out in a few months. You're being fatuous.


Most? Really? List them.

Really? Since I worked for Sony Ericsson, I will list the models off the top of my head that I know did. W880. W850. W890. W950. K850. K800. C905. W910. K810. K I'm getting bored.


By the way, the Nexus One does not have a secondary camera. If you're talking about video calling, well, without a front facing camera, I can't say I really care about that feature.

I was talking about Wireless n. Never video called once in my life.

Who video calls anyway?


What's this exactly? I was talking about the crispness and clearness and smoothness of pictures, text, etc etc thanks to the new screen tech.

Those are all results of the resolution. That's a resolution comparison diagram I gave ya.


I don't care?? Stop bringing it up HERE.

Sorry?! I will keep saying it as much as I like, thanks. He's the CEO of Apple. It's made by Apple. It's on the TV adverts. It's relevant.



You only compared standby times. What about usage times?

Don't have a comparison table for usage times, and after working in the industry for several years, I can tell you that publiushed times are meaningless. Independent testing is the only way you'll find out, so give it a few weeks and I'll get back to ya.


That's relevant how? They're completely different phones. We're talking smart-phones here.

I was answering your question:


again, what phone's out there are THIS thin?

See?


I'm comparing features with similar phones

Yes you are, but different features to the ones I'm interested in. You're not listing those. You cherry-picked a list of features and said they were definitive. You ignored the ones I posted.


Yeah, see? The iPhone 4 IS better than the Nexus One OVERALL

...You're doing the same thing. Again. Your own weighting applies to all these things. And it's all subjective. Huge app store? Yeah but a lot less free apps. And I can't develop my own. More than adequate? According to who? You.


Sense UI, Trackball, Possibly Flash in the future someday... that all is complete opinion

YES! Now you get it! It IS my opinion, and I'm not saying it is a 'better device' either. It's you doing that! And possibly? It's in 2.2, which is out very soon. The new cake is already on the googleplex lawn I think.


comparison argument
...you're really not getting what I'm trying to say.

I think it's fallacious to attempt to compare apples and oranges. Or in this case, cooking apples vs. eating apples. I'm not trying to say the Desire is better, I'm saying some specs are better and some are worse. So far you've got a higher res screen and crippled video calling (wifi only?!). Video calling was launched in the UK in 2003! Better battery life isn't proven at all, it's just numbers plucked out the air. Wireless n is a bit of a non-feature, because wireless n routers have a less than 1% penetration in the UK, and besides, the nexus one/desire are having theirs enabled in 2.2

One is not better than the other, factually speaking anyways

How are ANY of the features you're talking about free of opinion? Using your argument, two cameras doesn't mean better if trackpad doesn't mean better. I don't want video calling much as you don't want a trackpad.

[x88x]

What's this exactly? I was talking about the crispness and clearness and smoothness of pictures, text, etc etc thanks to the new screen tech.

For example, during the Apple video, they compared pictures on the old iPhone (which has one of the best displays compared to most phones) and the iPhone 4. There was a large difference. Pictures looked PERFECT. Lines and everything looked ultra-smooth, to the point where if it were any better, you wouldn't notice as it's humanely impossible.

He was showing the difference between the resolution of the iPhone 4 and the Droid, which has a fairly standard resolution screen for high-end phones these days. The things you mention are caused directly by the dot pitch, which is a calculation of the density of pixels in the screen. And sorry, but no, the previous iPhone's display was not 'one of the best'. It was crap. Sorry, but that's all there is to it. It may have been an IPS display with great contrast rat..no, sorry, it was a tiny resolution that was small when the original iPhone was released 3 years ago. It doesn't matter how good quality your panel is, if you've only got 10 pixels on it (ok, 76,800, but whatever, it's hyperbole), it doesn't matter. The reason why the new screen looks so good, and why it looks so much better than the old iPhone screen is that it is 4 times the resolution in the same physical area.



But things like WiFi-N compared to WiFi-G is hardly subjective. It's factually true.
While yes, it is factually true that the iPhone 4 is 802.11n capable while most other current phones aren't is a fact, whether that means anything at all is entirely opinion. The only 802.11n routers I have seen in use...ever...are one that a friend of mine has in PA, mine, and one other that I can see somewhere in my apartment complex. 802.11n in general only has maybe low double digit percent (ie, <20%, probably <10%) penetration in the global market, and to be honest nothing you're gonna be doing on a phone is going to use the additional bandwidth that 802.11n provides. Heck, half the 802.11n routers I've seen have been 100Mb on the wired side, which means you're only getting less than half the possible speed anyway.



Yup, previous generations had a 3-axis accelerometer and a compass, but no gyro.

OH. The Gyro. What does that do exactly?

Like a 3-axis accelerometer, a 3-axis gyroscope measures movement in all 3 axes. The difference is that gyroscopes are significantly more accurate (and normally significantly more expensive) than accelerometers.


Yup, there's the Nokia-run repositories, plus the Ovi Store. There was a lot of complaining from the peanut gallery around release that there wasn't anything in the Ovi store, but the whole point of it is that it's entirely 3rd party and user-generated apps, so no, there wouldn't be anything at launch.

What's it like now? I'm mostly worried about the N900's lack of hit with the general populace. That makes a huge difference in a device's app store. But then.. I do have my iPod Touch still..

If you follow this link (http://www.ovi.com/services/), and select the store, you can browse it. It's pretty big and almost entirely free. Speaking of which, everyone always goes on about the massive app store that the iPhone has...how many apps do you actually use? No stuff you downloaded to see what it was don't count. :P I ask because I only use, maybe 10 different applications on a regular basis that aren't part of the core OS, and from what I've seen, a large portion of the iPhone app store is useless stuff (fart app, etc).


It's in 2.2, which is out very soon. The new cake is already on the googleplex lawn I think.

Sorry, all this talk about flash, I gotta say...Maemo 5 has had full Flash 9.4 since the N900 was launched 7 months ago. :P

[OvRiDe]

Front and Back Facing Camera + Video Calling. What phone has that and can do that? I'm being honest here, I don't know.


I know I am way late in the conversation here but...

The HTC EVO 4G running Android from came out last Friday, and it has this feature.

http://i.zdnet.com/blogs/htc-evo-gl.jpg

And it has 4G network IF your area has it .. which most don't :dead:

[x88x]

Ah, I forget if I mentioned it, but the N900 can also do video calling with its front facing camera, over either gTalk or Skype, both integrated into the calling function. You just select a contact and instead of select 'phone' for 'type of call', select gTalk or Skype. Oh, and it'll do it on any data connection. :D

[dr.walrus]

Sorry, all this talk about flash, I gotta say...Maemo 5 has had full Flash 9.4 since the N900 was launched 7 months ago. :P

Seriously, I reckon your N900 has a built in fleshlight, the way you talk about it! :eek:

[Zephik]

'Will have' meaning out in a few months. You're being fatuous.

Hardly. You didn't supply that little bit of information originally. It changes things slightly, but, at the same time you can be going "well this is coming out in a few months" then a few months later you can be going "well this is coming out in a few months".....

Compare what's available now. This is why people don't compare what could be in any given amount of time greater than, say, a month or two at most. Otherwise you get stuck in a loop of waiting for something better because the truth is that there is always something better right around the corner.

Let alone all of the things that could happen between now and then.

Really? Since I worked for Sony Ericsson, I will list the models off the top of my head that I know did. W880. W850. W890. W950. K850. K800. C905. W910. K810. K I'm getting bored.

Are any of those actual smart phones? What's the point of comparing a regular phone and a smart phone? They're near completely different devices.

You remember that we were talking about back and front facing camera's + video calling, right?

"Front and Back Facing Camera + Video Calling. What phone has that and can do that? I'm being honest here, I don't know."

Then you said...

"Been on most phones worth over £200 for the last 4 years or so"

Then I said...

"Most? Really? List them."

etc etc.


I was talking about Wireless n. Never video called once in my life.

My apologies. I misread a quote.

Who video calls anyway?

I don't care much for the calling aspect of it myself, so much as the ease of taking self portraits as well as application usage.

Those are all results of the resolution. That's a resolution comparison diagram I gave ya.

Again, I apologize. I often make the mistake of saying "resolution" when I really mean picture quality. The clearness, the crispness, the smoothness of picture, etc. It's a bad habit that I don't always notice, as most people I talk to, like family, associate resolution capabilities with picture quality. Which is true to some degree, I guess.


Sorry?! I will keep saying it as much as I like, thanks. He's the CEO of Apple. It's made by Apple. It's on the TV adverts. It's relevant.

What some guy keep's saying over and over again is relevant when discussing the technological aspects of a gizmo or gadget? Hardly.

Maybe on Digg/Reddit/4chan. But here? Not even slightly. Nobody cares, that's all I was really trying to say. There's no point, except to go around telling people that Job's is a smug deceitful bastard who is completely full of himself. Everyone knows it though, so the only reason to say it, is to start a rant about how Apple sucks. etc etc.

But like I said, I believe he was referring to the iPhone line itself, not the smart phone industry at large. It would be a stretch to a normal person, but it is Job's were talking about.



Don't have a comparison table for usage times, and after working in the industry for several years, I can tell you that published times are meaningless. Independent testing is the only way you'll find out, so give it a few weeks and I'll get back to ya.

That's common knowledge. It is in a place like this, anyways. You don't need to have worked in the industry to be intelligent enough to know that companies use best case scenario's for their numbers.

No need to wait, though. Hours with links to review sites.

iPhone 3GS (since there is no testing of 4, yet.) = 5 Hours (http://www.engadget.com/2009/06/17/iphone-3g-s-review/).

HTC Desire = 6 Hours. (http://www.engadget.com/2010/04/01/htc-desire-review/)

Sony Ericsson Xperia X10 = 9 Hours (http://reviews.cnet.com/smartphones/sony-ericsson-xperia-x10/4505-6452_7-33881317-2.html?tag=txt;page).

Nokia N97 = 6 Hours (http://www.infosyncworld.com/reviews/cell-phones/nokia-n97/10344.html).

Sony Ericsson Vivaz = 5 Hours (http://www.techradar.com/reviews/phones/mobile-phones/sony-ericsson-vivaz-675812/review?artc_pg=9).

Blackberry Bold 9700 = 6 Hours (http://www.mobilitysite.com/2010/01/blackberry-bold-9700-review/).

Since Apple is at the very least claiming an improvement, it's somewhat safe to assume that there is going to be a slight improvement. They claim 7, so I'd say as the last one was 5 and they're claiming an improvement, probably like 5.5 to 6.5. But, they said 5 hours last time, and that's what it was. They're pretty accurate with battery life. So I'd say 6.5 isn't that much of a stretch to believe.

I was answering your question:


See?

Let's put it this way, since I need to be specific apparently. What phone's out there, that have the same or close to the same capabilities of the iPhone (hell, 3GS OR 4) are that thin? It's an honest question. I'm not trying to be a smartass or anything.

Yes you are, but different features to the ones I'm interested in. You're not listing those. You cherry-picked a list of features and said they were definitive. You ignored the ones I posted.

The list of features... are the ones that are new in this version of the iPhone, dude. That's why I listed them. So. What phones out there, have those features, or better? It doesn't have to be like EXACTLY EVERY SINGLE ONE, but close. What phones out there are TRULY similar to the iPhone 4? That's all I was trying to figure out. Pretty much ALL phones have things like SD card slots and what not, so there was no point in mentioning it. So, the things I listed, what phone's have most of those things or better? Not just one or two, but most. It's about the phone, overall, that I'm concerned with. I don't care if a phone has this or that, I care, basically, which is the best one on the market tech specs wise. The Nokia N900 is the closest so far, but even it has a few major draw-backs like a 600MHz processor, under-developed app store, etc.etc.



...You're doing the same thing. Again. Your own weighting applies to all these things. And it's all subjective. Huge app store? Yeah but a lot less free apps. And I can't develop my own. More than adequate? According to who? You.

Well, I can set and determine the parameters of my question, as I originally asked the question, so I could care less what you personally think.

But, seriously, the iPhone 4 IS better than the Nexus One. The 3GS wasn't, it was close, but not quite. But I mean sure, when it comes down to personal preference, the results will vary. That's why I'm sticking to facts. Better developed App Store (especially jailbroken), Better Screen Technology, Front Facing Camera. Then it basically ties with everything else. Then you take the unique features of the N1 that are not preferences, like UI or Trackball, but universally beneficial and desireable. Memory Card Slot. That's it. I'd trade a memory card slot for all of what I just listed. But that's just opinion, so lets just count the difference. 3 Things better with iPhone 4, 1 Thing better with N1. That's a difference of 2 in favor of the iPhone. Simple math just determined that the iP4 is technically better.


YES! Now you get it! It IS my opinion, and I'm not saying it is a 'better device' either. It's you doing that! And possibly? It's in 2.2, which is out very soon. The new cake is already on the googleplex lawn I think.

It is a better device. I just proved it.

...you're really not getting what I'm trying to say.

I think it's fallacious to attempt to compare apples and oranges. Or in this case, cooking apples vs. eating apples. I'm not trying to say the Desire is better, I'm saying some specs are better and some are worse. So far you've got a higher res screen and crippled video calling (wifi only?!). Video calling was launched in the UK in 2003! Better battery life isn't proven at all, it's just numbers plucked out the air. Wireless n is a bit of a non-feature, because wireless n routers have a less than 1% penetration in the UK, and besides, the nexus one/desire are having theirs enabled in 2.2

I don't live in the UK. You know that. My avatar is right there. I've been asking the questions, you've been answering. You should answer in a way that is relevant to the person who asked the question. Btw, you could always go buy a n router.


How are ANY of the features you're talking about free of opinion? Using your argument, two cameras doesn't mean better if trackpad doesn't mean better. I don't want video calling much as you don't want a trackpad.

A front facing camera is something anyone and most likely just about everyone, is going to use. It's universally useful for reasons I listed before. A track ball, albiet awesome imo, isn't universally useful. It's more of a gimmick than anything. You don't really seriously benefit from it over not having one. Having a front facing camera, is very beneficial. Again, for reasons I listed previously in this thread. Video calling is not universal, but being able to see a picture of yourself as you're taking a picture of yourself? That's useful to anyone and everyone.

[Zephik]

If you follow this link (http://www.ovi.com/services/), and select the store, you can browse it. It's pretty big and almost entirely free. Speaking of which, everyone always goes on about the massive app store that the iPhone has...how many apps do you actually use? No stuff you downloaded to see what it was don't count. :P I ask because I only use, maybe 10 different applications on a regular basis that aren't part of the core OS, and from what I've seen, a large portion of the iPhone app store is useless stuff (fart app, etc).



Sorry, all this talk about flash, I gotta say...Maemo 5 has had full Flash 9.4 since the N900 was launched 7 months ago. :P

I have 4 pages of Apps including the included apps. I don't download all the dumb fart apps or anything. I only like the useful ones, or rather, they're the only ones I end up keeping. But I have one page dedicated to games, one page of original apps which I use quite frequently, then two pages of tools (conversion kits, level, etc. You know, the useful stuff. lol) and entertainment apps. Like myspace, facebook, digg, reddit, revision3, tv guide, etc etc etc.

All of the apps I use I use at least once a month. That's often enough for me to keep them around. :p

That's 64 app's btw. lol

I use my iPod as a computer 90% of the time. Just more reason why I want a serious smart phone, like the N900 or iPhone 4. They seem pretty similar, but with the N900 being the better device technically. But those apps... that processor... the no multi-gesture... but... I have an iPod Touch, so why do I need those things? lol

[x88x]

Seriously, I reckon your N900 has a built in fleshlight, the way you talk about it! :eek:

Lol, no, but it does have a flashlight. :P


A front facing camera is something anyone and most likely just about everyone, is going to use. It's universally useful for reasons I listed before. A track ball, albiet awesome imo, isn't universally useful. It's more of a gimmick than anything. You don't really seriously benefit from it over not having one. Having a front facing camera, is very beneficial. Again, for reasons I listed previously in this thread. Video calling is not universal, but being able to see a picture of yourself as you're taking a picture of yourself? That's useful to anyone and everyone.

I would say the usefulness of a front-facing camera is as much opinion as anything else. Personally, I almost never use the one on my N900, and I've never taken a picture of myself with it. I doubt I would use a trackball either, but my point is, you can find anyone who will think that any feature is a gimmick. That's why there are so many different products on the market; everyone can get what they want.

[dr.walrus]

Compare what's available now.

Really? Let's stop talking about the iphone 4 then. It's not out yet!



Are any of those actual smart phones? What's the point of comparing a regular phone and a smart phone? They're near completely different devices.

You asked about phones in general. All of those phones have front and back cameras. Smartphones? The P990, P1, X10, X1, Satio, and that's just Sony Ericsson, not known for their smartphones atm... I can carry on?


some guy

He's the CEO! It's totally relevant, because half of what we've heard has come directly from his mouth.


hat phone's out there, that have the same or close to the same capabilities of the iPhone (hell, 3GS OR 4) are that thin?

Nexus one is within 2mm, htc touch diamond within 1mm.


The list of features... are the ones that are new in this version of the iPhone, dude. That's why I listed them. So. What phones out there, have those features, or better? It doesn't have to be like EXACTLY EVERY SINGLE ONE, but close. What phones out there are TRULY similar to the iPhone 4? That's all I was trying to figure out.

Dude, don't you get it? It's class-leading in a few areas, specifically resolution and thickness. Those few figures does not make it the best! Imagine I'm an old lady coming into a phone shop and I ask for the best phone. Would you sell me an iphone 4? For you, I can see it's great. Lovely. Thanks. But there are a whole ton of people like me who won't buy deliberately crippled devices for a whole lot of good reasons, and by lauding something as the 'best' you're attempting to bulldoze ANY debate.



But, seriously, the iPhone 4 IS better than the Nexus One.

Theat's your opinion


I just proved it.

No, you just repeated your opinion. Again. A review in itself is subjective, or else everyone would give every reviewed device the same score.

'better' implies criteria. You can state your criteria and I will agree with you that it's objectively better. You're not doing that, you're making sweeping statements.


I don't live in the UK

So? Still less than 10% of total sales, and that figure doesn't account for the ones people already own.


That's common knowledge. It is in a place like this, anyways. You don't need to have worked in the industry to be intelligent enough to know that companies use best case scenario's for their numbers.

I saved this gem til last. You really think the stuff a previous employee of a company knows about operator acceptance testing, software revisions and their effect on battery life can be summed up by that one sentence?

Yeah, right. Battery life and consumption is much more complex than that, and you won't get accurate result until R2 software revisions. You know 3 customers can get as little as 20% of the battery of other networks? No, probably not.


This was sort of fun when we started, but I'm bored now.

[dr.walrus]

one thing I forgot to mention.. on the iphone, with a res that high, it needs to work WAY harder processing 3d data because of the increased number of pixels to render to.

[SXRguyinMA]

And it has 4G network IF your area has it .. which most don't :dead:

but from what I've read, 4G is just everyone else's way of describing their networks. AT&T and T-Mobile have their 3G networks already capable of reaching 4G speeds, as where Sprint and Verizon need to rework their network for those speeds, thus calling it 4G :whistler:

Source: 4G wireless: It's fast, but outstripped by hype (http://www.verizon.net/newsroom/portals/newsroom.portal?_nfpb=true&_pageLabel=newsroom_portal_page__article&_article=2841413)


There's an important caveat to the claim that 4G will be faster, as well. It will definitely be faster than the 3G networks of Sprint and Verizon Wireless - about four times faster, initially. But the other two national carriers, AT&T and T-Mobile, are upgrading their 3G networks to offer data-transfer speeds that will actually be higher than the speeds 4G networks will reach this year or next.

[Zephik]

Really? Let's stop talking about the iphone 4 then. It's not out yet!

It's going to be available 14 days from now. That fits under what I previously said, that unless it's going to for sure come out within a month or two at the most, then otherwise it's not worth mentioning as many things can happen between now and then, let alone knowing nothing about those phones who are months away. Nothing's going to happen or delay the iPhone at this point, we already know basically everything about it, it's official and going to be released soon. 14 days from now you aren't going to be oh well I better wait another 14 days... and then another 14 days.. etc As was my main point earlier. You wait a couple months, then you're going to keep waiting again and again as new and better phones come out every couple months.


You asked about phones in general. All of those phones have front and back cameras. Smartphones? The P990, P1, X10, X1, Satio, and that's just Sony Ericsson, not known for their smartphones atm... I can carry on?

No I didn't. You assumed I did. I figured you were smart enough to realize that a normal phone doesn't belong in a discussion about smart phones, especially considering the context of all of this. Who in there right mind brings a normal phone to the smart phone equation? Especially when I keep repeating about overall-ness. Like I said before, the Droid Incredible has a better camera, but that doesn't make it the better phone OVERALL.


He's the CEO! It's totally relevant, because half of what we've heard has come directly from his mouth.

So? How does that affect us? OMG HE SAID IT WAS REVOLUTIONARY! I BETTER GO BUY IT! You think people are that stupid? You don't give mankind enough credit. But in any case, do you think a bunch of tech happy nerds here on this website gives two ****s about what Job's says? Even idiots know that he's full of ****. And what he says doesn't change anything. At all. Not a single thing. So its irrelevant.

Did you believe him or something? Is that why you're mad? or do you just like joining in on the apple hate-fest that is the internet in general?

You're ignoring my point, btw. It's a logical one. Even Job's isn't crazy enough to say that it's revolutionary in the broad sense of smart-phones in general. Like I said, I believe he was referring to the iPhone line itself. Which, as I said before again, is a bit of a stretch, but it's Job's we're talking about AND the truth is, that the 4 is pretty different from the other iPhones.


Nexus one is within 2mm, htc touch diamond within 1mm.

What? No. Not even. For example, some of the thickest computer cases (not all, but most) are 1mm of some metal or another or even plexi if that's the type of case you're buying. The thickest case I know, which is the Adamas, is 3mm at most in some area's. That's still incredibly thin, though. Not for a case, but for a phone? You could flex it slightly and the phone would break in half unless it was made of something like titanium.

BTW: The Nexus One is 11.5mm while the HTC Touch Diamond is 11.35mm. The iPhone 4 is 9.3mm.

Dude, don't you get it? It's class-leading in a few areas, specifically resolution and thickness. Those few figures does not make it the best! Imagine I'm an old lady coming into a phone shop and I ask for the best phone. Would you sell me an iphone 4? For you, I can see it's great. Lovely. Thanks. But there are a whole ton of people like me who won't buy deliberately crippled devices for a whole lot of good reasons, and by lauding something as the 'best' you're attempting to bulldoze ANY debate.

Dude, don't YOU get it? This phone has all the features as, say, the Nexus One AND MORE. That makes it TECHNICALLY BETTER. I don't give a rats ass about someones personal opinion, as that changes WITH EVERYONE. So, what can we ONLY discuss? The feature's themselves! The iPhone 4 has everything the N1 has except a Card Slot. Hell, lets just include the trackball too. That's two in favor of the N1. Then you compare the iP4. Better screen. Wireless-N. Front Facing Camera. That's three. So, that's still at least 1 in favor of the iPhone. Stop considering your opinion and compare nothing but features themselves. If you want to prove that the iPhone 4 isn't as good as some other phones, then compare it to the N900. Tah dah! It just lost by a mile. Hint why I've been kind of hinting here and there throughout this discussion about how awesome and desirable, even with the drawbacks, that the N900 is.



Theat's your opinion

Sorry, I live by math. The only thing in the world that isn't subject to opinion, to change, etc. I'm also smart enough to realize that discussing opinions is pointless so I try to keep it strictly to the facts. Apparently you're not intelligent enough to understand this.

No, you just repeated your opinion. Again. A review in itself is subjective, or else everyone would give every reviewed device the same score.

'better' implies criteria. You can state your criteria and I will agree with you that it's objectively better. You're not doing that, you're making sweeping statements.

You really just don't get it. It's pretty simple to understand. Create a list of features for both phones. Which has the most features? This phone. That phone is the winner. N1 vs iP4? iP4 wins TECHNICALLY SPEAKING. iP4 vs N900? N900 win's by a mile and a half because it has a crap-load of features, EVEN WITH it's drawbacks. So overall, it's better. Simple.

Now, subjectively speaking, would I buy it? I'd probably buy the iPhone because of it's App store and extremely well polished software and ease of use. But my questions haven't been subjective. They've been the above paragraph(s). The reason for that is so I can see what are the best phones out there, THEN I'll come back and be subjective about them. I'm not about to sift through every single phone man has ever made, smart or otherwise.

So? Still less than 10% of total sales, and that figure doesn't account for the ones people already own.

Uh... I'll just repeat what I said as I don't understand the point you're trying to make.

"I don't live in the UK. You know that. My avatar is right there. I've been asking the questions, you've been answering. You should answer in a way that is relevant to the person who asked the question. Btw, you could always go buy a n router."

I saved this gem til last. You really think the stuff a previous employee of a company knows about operator acceptance testing, software revisions and their effect on battery life can be summed up by that one sentence?

Yeah, right. Battery life and consumption is much more complex than that, and you won't get accurate result until R2 software revisions. You know 3 customers can get as little as 20% of the battery of other networks? No, probably not.

Yes, because battery life is going to change SOOOO much with software revisions. (That's sarcasm, btw. Figured I'd best let you know, just in case.)

And yes, we all know that each and every user experience is going to vary for one reason or another. But it's not going to vary THAT much overall. If you read 6 hours in a review website and that's not far off or right on par with the companies claims, chances are, you're probably going to get around that in your experience, thus it's relevance and thus why I did the research and listed what I had found. Are those numbers going to be exactly the same for everyone? No, but chances are that they're probably not too far off.

one thing I forgot to mention.. on the iphone, with a res that high, it needs to work WAY harder processing 3d data because of the increased number of pixels to render to.

Really now? WAY harder huh? You got proof to back that up?

By the way, chances are, that you're wrong. If it did, wouldn't the battery life, even if only by the companies standards (which with Apple, are usually fairly accurate), be the same as the 3GS or even less? But no, it's more. Hmm. Odd.

It undoubtedly works harder, by how much nobody knows for sure, but it also undoubtedly has a better chip-set so it CAN work harder. So what was your point again? Just felt like saying the obvious to no real benefit or reason?

Unfortunately, I'm still enjoying this. I've got jack to do all day anyways and as we're both keeping a civil tongue, within reason, I might as well continue to entertain myself and anyone else who might be keeping an eye on this thread.

On a completely unrelated note to our discussion, but addressing previous posts. Isn't 4G supposed to be a giant drain on battery with not that much of an improvement speed wise? At least when compared to it's battery drain, anyways.

[x88x]

So? How does that affect us? OMG HE SAID IT WAS REVOLUTIONARY! I BETTER GO BUY IT! You think people are that stupid?
Given what I've seen of a large portion of Apple's customers? Yes, yes I do. But then I have a very low opinion of humanity in general.


Nexus one is within 2mm, htc touch diamond within 1mm.

What? No. Not even. For example, some of the thickest computer cases (not all, but most) are 1mm of some metal or another or even plexi if that's the type of case you're buying. The thickest case I know, which is the Adamas, is 3mm at most in some area's. That's still incredibly thin, though. Not for a case, but for a phone? You could flex it slightly and the phone would break in half unless it was made of something like titanium.

BTW: The Nexus One is 11.5mm while the HTC Touch Diamond is 11.35mm. The iPhone 4 is 9.3mm.
Read closer. He said they are 1mm and 2mm within the iPhone 4...which you proved by the numbers you supplied.


Dude, don't you get it?[..]

Dude, don't YOU get it?[..]
Actually, Zeph, you're kinda proving his point. In your own words, the N900 has more features and in that simplistic ranking scheme ranks higher, but because of the iPhone's app store, you wouldn't buy it. Just showing that no matter what the features of a phone, they may not have any bearing on what people actually want.


So? Still less than 10% of total sales, and that figure doesn't account for the ones people already own.

Uh... I'll just repeat what I said as I don't understand the point you're trying to make.

"I don't live in the UK. You know that. My avatar is right there. I've been asking the questions, you've been answering. You should answer in a way that is relevant to the person who asked the question. Btw, you could always go buy a n router."

He's referring to global sales here. I looked real quick and couldn't find any hard numbers, but I would be very surprised if the global market penetration of 802.11n access points is higher than 10%, and I would be astonished if it were higher than 20%.


Yes, because battery life is going to change SOOOO much with software revisions.

Actually, yes. You might be surprised how much software and firmware tweaking can change the battery life of a device. For example, with my laptop I gained over an hour of battery life just by optimizing system settings and behavior.



one thing I forgot to mention.. on the iphone, with a res that high, it needs to work WAY harder processing 3d data because of the increased number of pixels to render to.

Really now? WAY harder huh? You got proof to back that up?

76,800 < 307,200 (pixel counts) That enough proof? You're pushing four times the resolution, so no matter how you cut it, more calculations are going to have to be made, therefore by definition it has to work harder. Whether that translates into any more battery draw is anyone's guess at this point, since the hardware behind that screen is completely different than the previous generation.



On a completely unrelated note to our discussion, but addressing previous posts. Isn't 4G supposed to be a giant drain on battery with not that much of an improvement speed wise? At least when compared to it's battery drain, anyways.

Yes and no, it depends on what a carrier means by '4G'. As SXR mentioned, 4G means different things for different carriers, so if it's WiMax (2-11Ghz & 23-43.5GHz) then maybe, depending on where in that band you're operating. If it's an improvement on 3G tech using the same frequency bands (1.7-2.1GHz), then no, it probably won't use any more power than normal 3G. Basically, the higher the frequency you're using, the more power you consume, assuming similar signal activity.

[dr.walrus]

No I didn't. You assumed I did. I figured you were smart enough to realize that a normal phone doesn't belong in a discussion about smart phones

... Okay. Well, you're avoiding the point that I listed a whole bunch of smartphones, some of them 3+ years old that all had front/back cameras and video calling. And you didn't need a separate app. And it' wasn't done over wifi. And the person you were calling didn't need an iphone 4. And it didn't have THIS much lag: http://news.cnet.com/1606-2-50088652.html
..And noone used it.


What? No. Not even. For example, some of the thickest computer cases (not all, but most) are 1mm of some metal or another or even plexi if that's the type of case you're buying.

I meant within 1mm difference. And we're using different specs here, some include protusions, others don't.


Yes, because battery life is going to change SOOOO much with software revisions.

Hahahahahaha, YES. I saw the Z300 go from less 1 day standby to 8. It was publicly acknowledged too, and software-related battery issues afftected their whole UIQ3 product line.

Really now? WAY harder huh? You got proof to back that up?

It's a pretty simple technical truth that to render for a larger resolution you need to use more processing power.



Uh... I'll just repeat what I said as I don't understand the point you're trying to make.

Because my second post was about global sales. Sorry if that wasn't clear.



This phone has all the features as, say, the Nexus One AND MORE. That makes it TECHNICALLY BETTER.

IN YOUR OPINION. It has a different FEATURE SET. Look at your own post. Better screen? No - higher res, yes, but lower contrast. So what you're saying when you say the iphone has a better screen is that in your opinion, res. trumps contrast. That's your opinion.

What you haven't got is I haven't said the Nexus One is better. Because I think you CAN'T do this whole 'good, better, best' thing without having an opinion. I think it's illogical. If you were to preface your statement with. 'I think the 'best' phone could be described as the one with the largest and most coherent feature set', and I think the iPhone 4 is the best out there', I might well agree with you. I'm disgreeing because you're saying 'it's the best phone out there' without stating your criteria. I'm also disagreeing that a lot of the features are new.

I couldn't give it a five start review because it falls down on too many open fronts - it's not open for development and it's packed full of DRM. That's it. That's my opinion. And that's why I bought an HTC desire and never even considered waiting for a new iphone. For ME, it's the best choice.

I don't think I would ever agree with anyone who would say something was the 'best' device in a market this complex, or indeed if that statement carries at all, without qualification or admitting that there is a layer of opinion in all this.

'Better' will always be an opinion until you add criteria. Criteria will always depend on a perspective.



Apparently you're not intelligent enough to understand this.

Because personally throwing insults is the way to win an argument :rolleyes:

[SXRguyinMA]

like I said, without flash it's still more useless than other comprable phones, and IMHO the "extra" features don't make up for lack of flash. Put flash on the iPhone, and I'll buy another one :) My 1st gen iphone has a busted screen and the battery is useless, but it still works as a good 8GB ipod for me, and my radio in my truck has the ability to scroll through the songs on the iphone, so a broken screen ain't gonna stop me :D

I almost got a newer (3G or 3Gs) iPhone, but without flash support, I'll never get another

[x88x]

I don't think I would ever agree with anyone who would say something was the 'best' device in a market this complex, or indeed if that statement carries at all, without qualification or admitting that there is a layer of opinion in all this.

Definitely. Heck, someone might not even want a smartphone, they might just want a simple phone that works as a phone and nothing else. From their point of view, any of the smartphones we've mentioned would be about the worst thing on the market.

Oh, and one thing that SXRguy made me think of...to my knowledge, the N900 is the only phone currently on the market with an FM broadcaster built in. IDK about anyone else, but this has been incredible useful and convenient for me, because it means that I can use it with my car (or any car for that matter) without any special cables, docks, adapters, or anything. Just hit 'play', and hit the button to turn the FM broadcaster on.

[msmrx57]

Definitely. Heck, someone might not even want a smartphone, they might just want a simple phone that works as a phone and nothing else. From their point of view, any of the smartphones we've mentioned would be about the worst thing on the market.

I'm one of those people. I don't even text on mine. :no:

[chaksq]

I don't see much real innovation with this phone really. It's definitely a well built phone, just not as amazing as Apple makes it out to be, doesn't really have anything that other phones haven't offered before. Just for comparison my best friend imported a Nokia N97 a while ago. The big points I'm going to point out with this phone is the front facing camera and a full keyboard. This front facing camera works with Skype, my friend uses it to video chat with his long distance girlfriend on her computer. The key for me is it uses Skype, which doesn't restrict you to calling only people with the same phone. Also I'd still really like to see a proper keyboard, not a touchscreen, for typing.