Healthcare

[Lothair]

Band-Aid = $40
Pain-Relief Medicine (low-quantity) = $30 - $70
X-Ray = $400
Emergency Room = $500
Ambulance = $1200

These are just prices I've uncovered from talking to people. What have you uninsured guys and gals paid in the past for "modern" medical needs?

For my own personal experience, I ended up paying $1400 for an Emergency Room, X-Ray of my Chest and about Fifteen Minutes of Talk Time with a Doctor. I was there for about a little under an hour. I was having funny heart movements that went on for about an hour. It was caused by too much Tea and Ramen. Also known as Caffeine and Salt. Yep.

[BuzzKillington]

250 dollars for a taking my blood pressure and looking up the stimulants I accidentally OD'd on, ~20 dollar per minute I was there, unless there were hidden fees for how many times they asked if I was trying to kill myself.

1300 for an enima and a plastic fold up thrown for me to **** in + 2 xrays and a blood test. I asked them to be conservative because I didn't have medical and they assured me I'd be able to apply for help... turned out the "help" wouldn't allow me to sign up at the age of 19 without a parent co-signer which neither of my parents wanted anything to do with. ;)

130 dollars for some fiber pills.

And some other stuff I'm sure but it's hard to determine what bill is for what since you go once and receive 3 separate bills.

Funny you brought this up because I have a stack about 6" high from 2008 (a bad year apparently...) of medical bills I had to break out to find out what in the hell happened and why they're on my credit as unpayed. -.-

I still don't believe in free healthcare though...

[d_stilgar]

$40 for a bandaid? I'm sure we're missing most of the story. You got cut doing something and got a bad cut, you went to the doctor to have it looked at and got charged $40. I'm not sure how long you were there, but I can still break it down.

Doctor
Nurses
Medical Records
Reception
Medical Billing
Malpractice Insurance
Rent
Electricity

I promise you it wasn't the band aid that cost you $40.

[dr.walrus]

£0

NHS

Anything.

[Lothair]

£0

NHS

Anything.

How much do you pay in taxes? Undoubtedly it's still less than what we end up paying over here in the US, but nothing is truly free.

[Lothair]

$40 for a bandaid? I'm sure we're missing most of the story. You got cut doing something and got a bad cut, you went to the doctor to have it looked at and got charged $40. I'm not sure how long you were there, but I can still break it down.

Doctor
Nurses
Medical Records
Reception
Medical Billing
Malpractice Insurance
Rent
Electricity

I promise you it wasn't the band aid that cost you $40.

Have you ever been uninsured? Also, it's not a regular rite-aid band-aid we're talking about here, they're generally a bit fancier. Doesn't justify the price, but it's still very easy to believe.

Why is medicine easier to believe than a fancy band-aid? A single pill doesn't cost $10-/+ each, but that's generally what you get charged.

They break-down the costs for you in your billing btw.

[blaze15301]

im under my moms insurance still. and it turned at at the age of 17 to stay in a hospital for 3 days for a collapsed lung was like 6500.thats before insurance. now after that about 6 months later i got a bill in for going again when i was 18. and the bill was 450 for them to take some blood a quick x ray and for the doc to come in and tell me im a lier and people like me are destroying the medical industry.

[Mark_Hardware]

America doesn't have healthcare
America has sickcare

[Luthien]

Last year, I was in the hospital for 2 weeks. The total was about $46,500. That involved x-rays, an MR-V (like an MRI but for veins), Heparin IV, Coumadin, a ridiculous number of blood tests(and I do mean ridiculous - I lost count at 30-something vials on day 1). I had insurance at the time, and that was the leftover, post-Blue Cross amount. Fortunately, I also qualified for what UAB calls "Charity Care" (aka- excellent research subject, plus being poor) and didn't have to pay. Now, I have Charity Care but no regular insurance. It doesn't cover everything (includes medicine in hospital, but not regular, outpatient medicine) and has a $35 copay for office visits that are covered. Not bad, except that I have to go at least once a month for blood tests if nothing else. In one more year, I'll be able to get MediCare, if the government hasn't killed it by then.
Did you know that while on SSI you get MediCaid but once on Disability there's a two-year gap before getting MediCare?

[Kayin]

My three-day trip to the hospital last year was $26,500. I'm facing replacement of part of my heart, at total cost of operation, parts, recuperation and therapy of a quarter of a million dollars, if I paid. Charity care will pay, simply because I'm an excellent test subject (I'm 29 and in better shape than almost everyone with the level of progression I have.) Let me remind you that it's surgery or die, too.

Let's not get into the fight I'm having with charity care because a nasty form of strep is ruining my teeth-as in they fall out almost whole. Charity care won't help unless it's related to chemo or cancer. Bastards.

[x88x]

That's great news about the treatment, Kayin. I hope it goes well.

As for health costs, I'm a bit of an oddity...and I feel kinda bad saying this right after Kayin's post, but...well, I don't really get sick...ever. Well, ok, I get one 48-hour flu about once a year. That's it. I've only ever been in an ER because of me once, and that was for a broken arm. Yet, despite all that, I've only ever been without insurance for about 5 months in 2008..during which (surprise) nothing happened. The only health-care related expenses I've had in the last 10 years aside from normal over-the-counter stuff is my yearly eye exam/contacts refill and having my wisdom teeth taken out in 2007.

So..I guess you could say I'm one of the reasons insurance companies actually work. :P

I did have a friend at work a while ago though, who was in the hospital for chemo..he said the chemicals they were pumping in cost something like $10k/day. :eek: Fortunately, it was covered by insurance...though that ended up being irrelevant...

[d_stilgar]

Have you ever been uninsured? Also, it's not a regular rite-aid band-aid we're talking about here, they're generally a bit fancier. Doesn't justify the price, but it's still very easy to believe.

Why is medicine easier to believe than a fancy band-aid? A single pill doesn't cost $10-/+ each, but that's generally what you get charged.

They break-down the costs for you in your billing btw.

If you are saying that it was a very fancy band aid, and not just some little piece of tape and gauze, then don't intentionally deceive by describing it as some $40 band aid. Did the $40 also include application or just materials?

Yes I've been uninsured and I payed full price and it wasn't so bad. I was expecting it to be worse the way everyone complains all the time. Dental doesn't fall under normal health insurance and many more people don't have dental insurance than don't have health insurance, and yet people don't complain about that. Somehow we all think we have a right to just feel good all the time but being able to eat is a luxury. Give me a break.

I've gotten into this subject before on this site and talked about it in depth, but the short of it is that people have come to think of health insurance as some sort of right because the government put wage caps on businesses in during WWII. Because of this businesses would offer other benefits, namely health insurance, to be competitive. After the war it stuck and here we are. So why do we have a right to feel good all the time but not have a right to be able to chew our food, because your employer says so.

I agree that there are big issues with the way that health care is paid for in America. Bad doctors game the insurance system, which drives the price of insurance and health care up. It creates the expectation that people will have their visit paid for by insurance. The result is a price that feels overpriced by the uninsured. What's worse is that there are laws that prohibit giving discounts to those that pay in full on the day of the visit. What it amounts to more or less is the insurance companies setting the price for how much your visit is going to be regardless of whether or not you are insured.

Some of the big problems with health insurance have been that large companies can get big discounts because they have so many employees. This has in part led to increasing costs of self-insuring.

But this isn't the point either. The point really is that it's health insurance and not 'super duper magically free health care.' Insurance is something you don't want to use. Let's compare it to cars, we don't expect our insurance companies to pay for oil changes, tires, wheel alignment, regular tune ups, head lights, etc. But when it comes to health insurance none of us feel like we should pay for anything, even though it costs money. Health insurance should be for that time you get in an accident and have to be life-flighted, for that emergency appendectomy. We should all be paying a couple hundred a month praying that we'll never win the insurance lottery. When you get out more then you pay in it means your health sucks, and nobody should hope for that. And yet so many people expect to get out more than they pay in. Somehow insurance is unfair because we pay in and never see the big payoff.

I've said it before, a good solution would be to create a law that requires people to have health insurance. This would get enough people in the system to bring the costs down. There are laws around health insurance which prohibit certain refusal of payment because of a prior condition, and this is only getting worse under the new national health care plan. Here are some hypothetical examples:

1) My wife and I are young and healthy and the maybe once a year we don't feel well we go to the doctor and pay the $180 to get some work done, but it's cheaper than insurance. We want to have a baby but it's going to cost $15,000. What we do instead is get insured and pay $400 a month, but boy is that cheaper than paying for it ourselves. After the baby is here safe, we drop the insurance.

2) I'm starting to get old but I'm still pretty healthy. I've been having some pains in my chest but I don't want to go to the doctor because social security doesn't pay enough. Instead I buy insurance and lie to the doctor about how good I feel. I'm fit as a fiddle I say. A few months later I go in with these "new" problems. I can't be turned away from insurance due to prior condition and now I can ride the boat for the rest of my life taking out way more than I will ever put in.

These are just a few examples which really show why not mandating insurance is a big problem. It drives the cost up for the responsible people who are trying to do the right thing. I know there are those of you here that will say that mandating car insurance is okay because car ownership is a choice and that life is a right, so there shouldn't be a law that mandates we have health insurance. Well, if you feel that way then never ever complain that the cost of health care is high. Compulsory insurance is a way to drive competition and bring costs down. That's what you were complaining about right? Let compulsory insurance be a possible solution to high health care cost. Anyway, as an architect and urban design major I'll tell you now that unless you are part of the %5 of Americans that live in an area with adequate public transportation, you cannot be a full member of society unless you own and drive a car, so %95 of us are already compelled to own and insure a car whether we like it or not. Compulsory health insurance wouldn't be that much different.

Why compulsory insurance and not a nation wide health plan? Well, our government is good at some things, but they are traditionally bad at innovating (especially when they don't have to) and bad at predicting cost. The competition derived by private insurance brings costs down. Innovations also bring costs down. For instance, one insurance company decided that it would pay for two well checks a year free of charge because people didn't want to pay the $20 co pay. After running the calculations they realized that by paying for preventative medicine completely, they saved a lot of money from emergency room visits and cancer found too late. Now most insurance companies have moved to this sort of system are are continuing to move in that direction. We are moving away from sick care to health care. I doubt any of you would think that our government would be so innovative. We would have one plan for the whole nation that would stay the same until something significant happened, probably in another county.

If the government is going to be involved at all it should be at a state level. State legislature is easier to pass, and with 50 states we could maintain some amount of innovation as well a state wide health plans that can fit the needs of the local people. The needs of Alaskans is not the same as the needs of Californians.

Look, health care has a cost and it has to be paid for or else we are going drive all doctors out of business. Medicare and Medicaid already are a net loss to doctors, a loss that has to be offset by the people who actually pay. If you don't believe me call your primary care doctor and ask him or her. If what the government has already given us comes at a net loss to doctors, I'd rather see someone else paying the doctors when health care reform goes through. If it's the government paying then we're in big trouble.

[x88x]

I've never quite understood employers who offer general health insurance but not dental or vision (or neither). My employer lets us opt out of..well, everything if we want to, but dental and vision individually. My dental and vision monthly payments come to less than $12/mo...not a hugely significant amount in the grand scheme, especially since the only significant 'medical' expenses I usually have is an annual eye exam and contact refill..which would run me about $250 otherwise. So, less than what I pay for everything, but much more than what I pay for vision (iirc, vision is around $8/mo and dental is around $3/mo). For context, my normal health insurance (the cheapest, most basic plan we have) only costs me around $15/mo...so everything put together is still way less than the almost $40/mo that I have to pay for Medicare.. -_^ Compared to my car insurance, it's a bargain. :P

[dr.walrus]

How much do you pay in taxes? Undoubtedly it's still less than what we end up paying over here in the US, but nothing is truly free.

I can't do a side-by-side comparison, but the NHS accounts for 10% of what the UK raises in taxes, and the American system costs 12% of your total tax bill. And then you pay individual contributions too. I simply don't accept that's a 'good offer'.

My point was simply that I never, ever have to worry about my healthcare not covering me if something happens.

[Kayin]

I would counter that if a country wants to even appear to be civilized, it should provide for its citizens. And currently, the US is a third world country.

I consider it quite a big deal when health care is cheaper, more readily available and light-years better in Cuba than in the US. And that's not just because I'm dying. Nobody will cover me for insurance. You're born with what I have. I was born with a "pre-existing condition." You know what else gets covered as a "pre-existing condition? Rape. (http://www.alternet.org/health/143426) Another example? This (http://www.vaughns-1-pagers.com/medicine/pre-existing-conditions.htm) list shows things like domestic violence to be a precluder for care as well.

The sad fact is, there is no insurance for the people that need it. And statements like yours, while they do have a point about paying doctors who do deserve a check (though not like the ones they get now) also pretty much state if you can't pay you should die. America should get its head from its posterior and realize the only thing they'ere gonna have left is the rich people, and who will do their dirty work for them then?

As to mandating that we buy insurance, doing so for me would be more than I get a month. That doesn't seem to viable a plan. According to the Republicans, I should go wander off in the woods and die. Personally, I would like to stick around a little while longer.

[Luthien]

The people who argue that everybody should have to buy insurance are always the ones who are healthy and don't really need it. I don't wish poor health on any of you, but I think it may truly be a case of not being able to understand what it's like until you've been through it yourself.

I worked until the doctors refused to allow me to work anymore. I mean worked 50-60 hour weeks, on my feet even as the skin, muscles, and nerves in my legs were literally liquefying and soaking through bandaging. I did not want to be disabled, but it happened anyway. So should I just die now because I physically can't work?

[BuzzKillington]

I still don't believe in free healthcare though...

People in the US complain about the waits as it is... Illegals already use the ER for their checkup visits since they can't deny you... I can only imagine how it'd be if it were free for everyone. :down:

Reasonably priced? Sure... They shouldn't be pulling in 10,000% profits on medicines and basic care but I still don't believe anyone should be paying for me nor do I feel I should pay for anyone else.

[Luthien]

So, in other words, yes, I should just die.

[Luthien]

I worked when I could. I paid in while I worked. I never complained about it; it was just part of working. I also never thought I'd have to rely on it so soon (if at all), but I did. I'd say I'm sorry you feel slighted by "paying for others" but I'm not. Here's why: If the roles were reversed, if you were unable to work and I could, I wouldn't resent you. Bad things happen to good people. It's not anything deserved. It's not anything that can be prevented. It just happens sometimes. I hope for your sake you're never in a situation where you'll have to rely on others.

[x88x]

As others have stated, I think the whole thing is just a symptom of the much larger problem of the astronomical costs of health care to begin with. I also don't think there is a simple solution. I forget where, I think on a documentary a while ago, but apparently when the national health care system was implemented in Canada a lot of doctors moved to the US because they didn't want to stop making embarrassing large piles of money. I think it is fair to pay them proportionately to their training and skill, but there does come a point when it gets ridiculous. It's similar to the opposite situation with teachers..if you keep the salary low, nobody will do it just for the money..but if you keep the salaries low, the really good teachers might not be able to afford to stay. If you keep doctors' salaries high, you keep the good ones..but you also draw people who are only in it for the money... On the other end of the system, the medical companies obviously need to recoup the (sometimes honestly massive) costs of developing new medicines, but that again needs to be tempered. It is a hugely lucrative system, and I'll be the last to suggest that someone shouldn't be allowed to make a profit..but as Kayin said, part of the responsibility of the government is to protect their citizens, and when people cannot afford the costs of keeping themselves healthy and productive to society, there is a problem. Like I said, there's no simple solution.

[BuzzKillington]

I'm not against paying the taxes I pay now since it's pretty much just life but I'm sure they'd jump quite a bit for nationwide free healthcare. The policy also doesn't specify everything is free. You would probably have to pay for full coverage still, you'd just receive free checkups and medicines. Surgeries would still cost an arm and a leg if you didn't have the additional coverage.

There's never a time where in a life or death situation you'd die because you couldn't get healthcare... hospitals can not deny service.

There are also programs like medicare that can help tremendously for the unfortunate. I could have used it but since I was under the age of 21 I needed a cosigner.

Also, I know it may sound terrible for me to pick and choose, I wouldn't mind paying a little extra in taxes for people like you, but because there are SOOO many that are just lazy and sit on welfare popping out kids every 9 months or jumping on disability because they broke a fingernail, it'd disgust me to give them a red cent, I'd rather they die.

[msmrx57]

This is from http://www.thatsmyboss.com

That’s My Administrator
December 7, 2010

The administrator of the hospital got a $125,000 bonus
and a $60,000 a year pay increase to “bring him to a competitive
market salary”. The same year, a freeze on employee cost of living
raises was put into place due to “financial considerations”.

Pretty much explains most of the existing problems in healthcare.

[Lothair]

Let's just put it this way.

Healthcare works just about everywhere else in the world and is deeply and quite fiercely loved by it's citizens.

Most of the developed/modern world feels bad when they look at our healthcare predicament. They aren't just empty words either, they're actually quite heartfelt. It really is that bad here.

This country is all about self. Nobody cares about anybody. There's no compassion for the fellowman or woman. It's all just tough luck and you should have been prepared. No mistakes allowed, no misfortunes either.

Yet it's something like 60% have inadequate insurance while 10% aren't insured at all. And yet people here seem to fight healthcare that actually works with tooth and nail.

This country is insane and of such low intelligence that I just don't think that there is any hope at all.

Personally, even if I never ended up using healthcare even once during my life, I would still be more than glad to pay for those who can't afford help but need it. It will be abused. All things are. But I rather it be abused and still help those who need it than not at all. Compassion and understanding. I feel like a drop of water surrounded by miles of blistering hot desert. Maybe I am.

By the way, if you look up healthcare costs by country and graph it. We're 30% more expensive than the SECOND most expensive country in the world. While most developed countries like the UK, Canada, etc. are near the bottom of the list. Embarrassing. Shameful. Disgusting. Just a few choice words that accurately describe the intense amount of greed and lack of care for people that this country has.

Cut unnecessary spending, manage necessary spending considerably better and you'd have ample room for true and worthwhile healthcare reform. How do I know? Look at the rest of the modern world. It's kind of obvious.

[Luthien]

Also, I know it may sound terrible for me to pick and choose, I wouldn't mind paying a little extra in taxes for people like you, but because there are SOOO many that are just lazy and sit on welfare popping out kids every 9 months or jumping on disability because they broke a fingernail, it'd disgust me to give them a red cent, I'd rather they die.


I agree that too many people take advantage of welfare and/or disability. They ruin it for everybody who really needs it. I just want it known that there are those who really should be on it. I'd return to work if I could.

[Lothair]

I agree that too many people take advantage of welfare and/or disability. They ruin it for everybody who really needs it. I just want it known that there are those who really should be on it. I'd return to work if I could.

I'm not sure that I'll ever entirely understand why we let the few ruin things for the many. In hindsight, I'd have to say we'd be better off if we did things differently.

You can't make it to the other side of the bog without attracting a few leeches. You just need to burn them off when you get one. So bring a lighter. That basically sums up what we should be doing.

I guess I just feel that helping people, even if you do get abusers, is better than not helping people at all.

[Airbozo]

So, in other words, yes, I should just die.

No.

There are exceptions to the rule (there always are).

Part of the privatization of health care should include a provision to provide services for those that can not provide them for themselves due to illnesses and other uncontrollable circumstances. Basically we already have this in place, but the insurance companies do not want to pay, nor do the hospitals.

Yes we as a civilized nation need to provide basics for our citizens, but we should not push that burden on those that can barely provide for themselves (the middle class who are paying most of this countries bills in the first place).

I feel that one thing that would help lower the overall costs would be to reform the way lawsuits against the medical industry are handled. Negligence should be squashed with an extremely heavy hand and simple mistakes should not cost millions of dollars to defend or settle (like the case of the woman who sued because a hospital mistakenly removed her tonsils. She sued and won over 10 million dollars despite the fact that she was in better health after the surgery mistake).

If you want to be mad at someone for inadequate health care, be mad at those kind of people. They are one of the main reasons health care costs so much. The other folks to be mad at are the drug makers.

Yes it is a complicated issue and one that is not going to be solved very easy. Makes my head hurt to even think about it.

[Luthien]

People who sue over ridiculous things are a real problem. $10million for tonsils? Insanity. A lot of people seem to love the idea of getting rich through lawsuits. Between them, the drug companies, and the insurance lobbyists, health care will remain overpriced. Things should not cost as much as they do, but they will as long as things remain as they are now.

[x88x]

I'm not sure that I'll ever entirely understand why we let the few ruin things for the many.

The problem is that in this area it too often costs more to find those ruining it (and prove that they're ruining it..see prior reference to lawsuits.. :facepalm: ) than it does to ignore them.

[Lothair]

How do other countries handle wrongful or mistaken practice lawsuits?

How do other countries handle people who abuse the system?

[Airbozo]

How do other countries handle wrongful or mistaken practice lawsuits?

How do other countries handle people who abuse the system?

I would love to know this too.

Any of our members from other countries care to chime in?

[Kayin]

From what I know of the judicial systems of other countries, frivolous lawsuitsd can get you in legal trouble in the EU, and there are caps set on damages sought AND awarded.

By the other token, in the US, the RIAA sued a person and sought damages per song that would have totaled more than the entire total of money on Earth. Tort reform indeed.

[x88x]

By the other token, in the US, the RIAA sued a person and sought damages per song that would have totaled more than the entire total of money on Earth.

Hurray for abysmally out of date legal code. :P

[slaveofconvention]

People keep referring to the health system in the UK as free - it really isn't. We have a special "tax" called "National Insurance Contributions" which is in place specifically to pay for healthcare and retirement benefits - this is a payment we make out of our base wage on top of income tax and all of the associated sales taxes. On top of that, when medication is prescribed, we also pay a contribution to those medicines in the form of a prescription charge - it's a flat rate and often less than the actual cost of the medicine - a LOT less in many cases, I'm sure.

My wife (american) and I are looking towards moving to the US in the next couple of years and to be frank, the thoughts of healthcare are the one thing really making me pause for thought. I have no doubt that there will be times, in the future, when I'll have to come home just for healthcare. The worst part of that is, while living in the US, I wont be contributing to the cost of that healthcare so I'll end up being effectively the exact thing I despise - a freeloader. The only thing I'll have to assuage my conscience will be the knowledge that I DID pay in for almost 20 years and never took anything out (well nothing substantial - I've maybe taken up 4 hours of doctors time since becoming an adult and had a total of 2 prescriptions for codeine when my back gets REALLY bad)

[dr.walrus]

People keep referring to the health system in the UK as free - it really isn't. We have a special "tax" called "National Insurance Contributions"

These contributions have been almost nothing even when I've been paying out of decent wages.

As someone who has had three ambulance rides, a dozen overnights in hospital, half a dozen stays more than a night, and my life saved several times by free health service contributions, I would be horrified by the concept of having to rely on the private sector for the excellet care I've recieved.

[slaveofconvention]

Well I've been working 20 years, and I figure an average of about £100 a month in NI alone - I'm fairly confident that the £24k ish I've paid to date will just about cover the 4 hours of doctors time. If they're on $6k an hour, I'm in the wrong job lol.

At the same time, I know I'm at one extreme end of the scale - only bone I ever broke was my foot and I found out about it 4 MONTHS later when my ankle was xrayed (during a trip to australia), and I've never had any surgery since I was about 6 months old...

[dr.walrus]

Well I've been working 20 years, and I figure an average of about £100 a month in NI alone - I'm fairly confident that the £24k ish I've paid to date will just about cover the 4 hours of doctors time. If they're on $6k an hour, I'm in the wrong job lol.

At the same time, I know I'm at one extreme end of the scale - only bone I ever broke was my foot and I found out about it 4 MONTHS later when my ankle was xrayed (during a trip to australia), and I've never had any surgery since I was about 6 months old...

Surely all this is beside the point. My genetic makeup and payscale shouldn't affect whether I should live or die, should it?

[Lothair]

Surely all this is beside the point. My genetic makeup and payscale shouldn't affect whether I should live or die, should it?

Well if you're talking about Insurance, then it's important to understand that it's not charity, it's gambling. It's money circulating around odds. And only fools bet when the odds are highly against you.

That's one reason why I don't believe in private insurance as anything more than "another option". Because you have people who can't get help because the odds are highly against them and then you have peole who simply can't afford it. (See 70% of Americans. 60% with inadequate and 10% without)

I may have misunderstood your post, so if mine isn't relative to the current topic then just ignore. ^_^

[Killa_Ape]

Really there's nothing you can do to the people who abuse the system. They will always find a way, you can't just say "oh he's faking that chest pain", they'd have to examine them anyways. In Canada hospital visits are free and you pay for prescriptions still. Surgeries are covered I believe, my son was born and had hirschsprungs and had to get surgery twice, once to get a stoma and the second time to fix it. It would have cost me god knows how much but healthcare covers it all! I thought our healthcare system was good beforehand and I never really used it.

I have Blue Cross through my work where I get life insurance (100,000), dental coverage (complicated to give values but covers various things 100% and others 80%), prescriptions about 80%, chiropractor, ambulance ride, better room in hospital and covers my family (total of 5) all the same and costs me about $60 a month and my boss covers the other half.

There are people who complain about our healthcare system but I could never go to somewhere like the US and go to that kind of system, I think I'd kill myself (it'd be a hell of a lot cheaper anyways). No system is perfect but some need to be overhauled.

[dr.walrus]

Well if you're talking about Insurance, then it's important to understand that it's not charity, it's gambling. It's money circulating around odds. And only fools bet when the odds are highly against you.

I'm arguing your side here; I don't think healthcare is a personal issue, it's an issue for society in general.

The argument of healthcare vs. food in non-sensical to me. Within 24 hours I can cost enough in surgery than it would cost me to eat in restaurants for a year. That said, I think we don't have a good alternative to universal benefits for that reason too - we can't let children starve, can we?