Fan issue

[tomcraig]

Ok so I'm having some trouble deciding what fan I should get for my project. I have a Mini-ITX motherboard with an integrated CPU. However when I first plugged in the PSU the other day, nothing happened. I tried putting a second CPU in to see what would happen, and then it did power on and beeped, but then shut off again saying there was a CPU fan error. I was under the impression I wouldn't need a fan for the project, but obviously I do. I have one fan but although it has 3 connections like the mobo, it came from a laptop so the connector is too small. Could anyone tell me what kind of fan I will need, or if there's a way to boot using the other CPU instead? Thanks.

[DrkSide]

What kind of board is it and what processor are you using in it?

The only boards that support passive cooling are normally the intel atom or VIA boards. If you have one with a socket I would guess it would be a socket 775, 1156, AM2+, or AM3. With any of these boards you will need a fan plugged into the cpu for cooling. What cooler are you using with the build?

[tomcraig]

It's a Mini-ITX HP board (http://tinyurl.com/4ov2tk2). My processor is an Intel Core Duo T2500 2GHz. Don't know what kind of cooler yet, that's part of my problem :/

[DrkSide]

If you are trying to run without any cooler DON'T. You can burn up your processor very easily.

Also, almost all processors will require some form of active cooling. This specific one is a laptop processor and even it will require active cooling when using most coolers. As for the fan issue OEM computers have a bios (I think) trigger that requires a fan on the cpu header. This is so it does not burn up the cpu in case the fan fails, since it is alot easier to replace a fan than a cpu.

[Lothair]

The only motherboards I know of that have integrated processors are the Atom boards, and I don't think I've ever seen one with a 479m socket type for a corresponding processor. This would explain why nothing happened without a processor yet something did happen once one was placed in.

Even Atom processors need cooling and the one you're using will definitely need a heatsink with at least some airflow, thus you will need a fan.

However I don't know of any socket 479m coolers. Do you have a heatsink for the processor you installed? If so, then all you will need is some sort of fan for airflow to remove the heat surrounding the heatsink, otherwise it's likely you'll over-heat the processor.

[tomcraig]

I do not have a heat sink for the CPU. But there already was a heat sink on the board and that lead me to assume it had a integrated CPU. Is there any specific kind of fan I should get?

[mDust]

I do not have a heat sink for the CPU. But there already was a heat sink on the board and that lead me to assume it had a integrated CPU. Is there any specific kind of fan I should get?

You need a 479 cpu heat sink with a fan. You can get them here:
http://www.performance-pcs.com/catalog/index.php?cPath=55&main_page=index
...or anywhere else. Search for '479 cooler' in google or your preferred computer hardware store.

[Lothair]

I do not have a heat sink for the CPU. But there already was a heat sink on the board and that lead me to assume it had a integrated CPU. Is there any specific kind of fan I should get?

That would be the North Bridge. The one without a heatsink would be the South Bridge, although some boards have heatsinks on both of them.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Northbridge_%28computing%29

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Southbridge_%28computing%29

You cannot run the PC without a heatsink on your processor, which is Socket 479, so you will need a heatsink that says it's compatible with Socket 479. I'm not sure what the difference between Socket 479 and Socket 479m is, though. So buy at your own risk. If I had to guess though, any Socket 479 heatsink should work. That's just a guess, however.

If you don't use a heatsink, the processor will either burn up (literally) or your computer will hopefully detect that there are heating issues on the processor and won't turn on, which looks to be the case right now.

If you have any other questions, don't hesitate to ask!

[Lothair]

I'm looking at the board you linked to earlier, and I cannot for the life of me figure out how you would attach a heatsink? There's no holes or clips or anything? Perhaps someone can explain how this would work, apparently I'm not too familiar with older style boards like this one.

[mDust]

I'm not sure what the difference between Socket 479 and Socket 479m is, though. So buy at your own risk. If I had to guess though, any Socket 479 heatsink should work.

The official naming of this socket by Intel is mPGA479M. That's where the 'm' comes from. There is no difference between 479 and 479m.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Socket_479

Socket 478/479 heat sinks clip onto the socket instead of bolting to the board...so no worries there.:)

[tomcraig]

I'm looking at the board you linked to earlier, and I cannot for the life of me figure out how you would attach a heatsink? There's no holes or clips or anything? Perhaps someone can explain how this would work, apparently I'm not too familiar with older style boards like this one.

It's not a very good picture, but there are holes on there. They are in the same positioning as the holes for the heat sink already on the board; one is adjacent to the PSU connector and the other is to the bottom left of the socket, near a capacitor. You can see in this image: http://cl.ly/2k2s081Q0Y1y0E243O38

[DrkSide]

This board (MOCA-AR) doesn't have your normal holes for a heatsink. The holes adjacent to the cpu and bottom left of the socket are for attaching the motherboard to the case.

The heatsink is actually held on by a "clip" between two "loops" and uses the pressure from that clip to stay seated to the processor. I have pointed to the two loops in the picture.
http://i454.photobucket.com/albums/qq270/hcsnwa/20081128_3f924957c8a70cd6e72cEEW6dlH4Df7U.jpg
Last time I dealt with something like this is was a chipset heatsink on a dell computer. If the two loops were not connected the computer would not turn on. I guess that there was some kind of current detection on them. Not sure if this is the same case or not.

[tomcraig]

Thanks guys, I've been looking around. Does anyone happen to know why some 479 coolers have screws, versus a clip? I want to make sure I get one that fits.

[DrkSide]

Tomcraig,
(somebody say if I am wrong) but I don't think a normal 479 cooler will work on this because of the Clips that I pointed out. A normal 479 has 4 holes vs these two clips on this motherboard. Not sure where to tell you to find one but any of the aftermarket coolers you buy are not going to have the slot for the retaining mechanism.

[tomcraig]

Yes, I thought this was the case. Any suggestions guys, or should I search around more.

[Lothair]

I think your only choice now is to sell what you have and start completely over, or start getting creative with what you have/need. Such as finding a heatsink that you could then create your own retention clip to fit your motherboard. You just need to be able to secure a heatsink into place with a modest amount of pressure and you'd be good to go. Just don't forget the thermal paste/grease.

I would probably just sell what you have and put that money towards a new setup. You could get a dual core AMD processor and a corresponding motherboard for pretty cheap these days. Probably about $40 for the processor and $40 for the motherboard. Just make sure you buy a retail processor as they come with both the thermal paste and heatsink. Or you could just buy your own. There's plenty of options for new gear. Yours is just a bit dated so it's hard to find stuff.

[mDust]

Socket 478/479 heat sinks clip onto the socket instead of bolting to the board...so no worries there.:)

It looks like I was partially wrong here. Most of the 479 heat sinks I looked at mounted with a clip. Some also had removable mounts for bolts but they fit on multiple sockets, so I just figured that they just bolted onto those other boards. The ones that do mount with clips mount to a piece of plastic around the socket, which is bolted to the board. (I have no idea what the engineer was thinking about that...pointless to have a redundant part in there.)

If you provide a closeup pic of the cpu area and the board model number, I'll look into this further for you.

[tomcraig]

If you provide a closeup pic of the cpu area and the board model number, I'll look into this further for you.

That would be very appreciated. The board seems to have several different names (both MMOCA-AR and Calcite). Anyway here's (http://h20000.www2.hp.com/bizsupport/TechSupport/Document.jsp?lang=en&cc=us&objectID=c00783647) the info page

And here are some close ups:
http://cl.ly/0w0v2N0C2B281P2H3t1G
http://cl.ly/1m290r163h2m2Z1J2X3q
http://cl.ly/1m1f2d330A1M3O1S0l2k

(Sorry, it wasn't inserting the pics for some reason.)

[SXRguyinMA]

it's a socket 479M, which is basically a mobile (laptop-style) style setup, so chances of finding a HSF to fit that are slim at best

[SXRguyinMA]

here's one way to do it:
http://forums.bit-tech.net/showthread.php?t=197451

[tomcraig]

here's one way to do it:
http://forums.bit-tech.net/showthread.php?t=197451

That looks pretty promising, and it made me realize I had a heatsink just like that lying around. It has a clip on it too but just barely doesn't match up to the holes on the board (http://cl.ly/3Q0L0L3G1S2l3X0u1z28) Think I could be able to bend that clip a bit and get it work?

[SXRguyinMA]

you should be able to bend that enough to make it work. or maybe go to a hobby shop and get some of the wire they use for airplane landing gear.

[tomcraig]

On a somewhat related note, do you think this (http://cgi.ebay.com/N-CPU-Cooling-Heatsink-Cooler-Fan-PC-Intel-P3-PIII-/370366570726?pt=LH_DefaultDomain_0&hash=item563b9160e6#ht_3158wt_907) kind of heatsink would work? I looks like it has the right kind of clip...

[mDust]

There is no difference between 479 and 479m. Socket 479 is mobile only, so I'm not entirely sure why it's on this board to begin with...or why there are non-mobile heat sinks for this socket. This is all very confusing.:think: I suspect they just started throwing mobile chips on itx boards because the chips were low-power and because they could.

I almost independently linked to the same pics there, SXRguyinMA. I knew I saw heatsinks clipped directly on 479 sockets before. That setup isn't as custom as it seems, he just recycled an on-hand heatsink. Bending the hooks on your wire out so they lay flat should work. Make sure to have some airflow over that heatsink though as it wasn't designed to cool that CPU, let alone do so passively. At least keep an eye on the temps at first to make sure it's working well enough. Otherwise, there are retention clips that fit on those little nubs on your socket that will allow you to attach a full size heatsink...but I'm not able to find any for 478/479.:? Hell, this thread comes up on the first google page when searching for them, sooo...

[Lothair]

Isn't the difference between the two the way the heatsink is attached to the motherboard? The only 479 heatsinks I could find were the quad push pin design, whereas this is a single retention wire with two loops on the motherboard. Perhaps I'm wrong, I'm just stating what I noticed.

The best bet is to pick up a heatsink of your choice (looks like you have one there already!) and do as what was previously mentioned, which is basically try to find some springy-ish wire that could be used. Perhaps you could even just use any wire (or maybe heavy duty string?) and pull it through the loops so it holds the heatsink down tight. Also, don't forget thermal paste! You need that in between the processor and the heatsink. Plenty of guides on how to apply it all over the internet if you just google it. Grab some Arctic Silver 5 if you can. It's about 5 or 6 dollars and is widely regarded as being the best.

[mDust]

Isn't the difference between the two the way the heatsink is attached to the motherboard? The only 479 heatsinks I could find were the quad push pin design, whereas this is a single retention wire with two loops on the motherboard. Perhaps I'm wrong, I'm just stating what I noticed.


Nope. There aren't two different 479 sockets. The proper name for the socket is mPGA479M. That's where the 'm' comes from. Some people keep it on, others just truncate it.
The multitude of heatsink mounting mechanisms for 479 is ridiculous. There was no standard apparently. I've seen many with the pushpins, but most that I looked at were fastened with tensioned wire or some clasps that mount on a plastic bracket that is mounted where the pushpins would go. The method I've always seen just clamped onto the socket via those little protrusions on the side of the socket itself...but I couldn't find anything like that.:? EDIT: ...probably because it's an unreliable way of mounting a heatsink...

[tomcraig]

Okay thanks guys, I'm gonna go ahead with the heatsink (http://cl.ly/3Q0L0L3G1S2l3X0u1z28) I already have and not risk getting one that doesn't fit. When I get the fan, should I just lay it on top of the heatsink, or put it elsewhere in the housing, near an air hole perhaps?

[mDust]

Okay thanks guys, I'm gonna go ahead with the heatsink (http://cl.ly/3Q0L0L3G1S2l3X0u1z28) I already have and not risk getting one that doesn't fit. When I get the fan, should I just lay it on top of the heatsink, or put it elsewhere in the housing, near an air hole perhaps?

As long as the air flow is hitting the heatsink you should be alright.
Make sure to apply a 'grain of rice' size blob of thermal paste to the chip before latching down the heatsink too. Everything should be good as long as the heatsink stays firmly attached to the chip. Download and install CoreTemp or HWMonitor to watch the temps for a bit to confirm everything is fine.

[tomcraig]

Make sure to apply a 'grain of rice' size blob of thermal paste to the chip before latching down the heatsink too. Everything should be good as long as the heatsink stays firmly attached to the chip. Download and install CoreTemp or HWMonitor to watch the temps for a bit to confirm everything is fine.

Okay I'll give it a go. Thanks for the info everyone. :D

[Lothair]

I bet you could probably use some paper clips to extend those wires to reach the loops. Just secure them to the heatsinks wires, then pull them tight through the loops and tie them off or what have you.

As for airflow, there doesn't need to be a whole lot. It doesn't need a fan sitting right on top of it, for example. So long as their is some kind of air moving past it and thus removing excess heat it should be fine. It'll probably get hot, but as long as it isn't like burning to the touch it should be fine I'd imagine. 140F is a fairly safe operating temperature just as an FYI.

Gotta love making things work for you in a way that they weren't intended to do! That's what modding is all about, really. lol

[tomcraig]

Gotta love making things work for you in a way that they weren't intended to do! That's what modding is all about, really. lol
Yeah I agree, especially because I'm building inside an N64 ^^

[AmEv]

Wow. You're the third I know that is doing an N64 build.

[tomcraig]

Ok bad news guys:(. Finally got my fan in the mail today (it's a 30mm 12v), plugged it in and booted up the Mobo. While the fan did start spinning, I got the same error message telling me there was a fan error and it shut off. I tried another fan (5v) and the exact same thing happened. What's the deal? Is there something I'm not getting?

[artoodeeto]

If you have an 80mm or bigger fan, try plugging that in and aim it at the heatsink. It could be that (assuming the fan connector on your 30mm is 3-prong rather than 2; the 3rd prong tells the 'puter how fast the fan spins) the mobo is detecting that the fan is running slower than the BIOS's minimum fan speed setting, thus generating the error. An 80mm or bigger fan would spin fast enough for sure, so that could be an easy way to either fix the problem or rule out a possibility.
It looks like from the mobo photo that there's only 1 fan plug, so you can't have plugged the fan in the wrong place.

If that doesn't work, honestly I'd look in to replacing the board. I know how irritating it is to think you have a system put together and then have to replace it, but I'm not sure what else could be causing the problem. You might also try resetting the CMOS by either pulling the coin-shaped battery out for a few seconds while the system is off, although I wouldn't really expect that to work.

[tomcraig]

If you have an 80mm or bigger fan, try plugging that in and aim it at the heatsink.
Arg. Alright I'll give that a shot. Thanks.

[tomcraig]

Okay! Finally got an 80mm one in the mail today and it powers up! Thanks so much everybody for helping out a noob. This thread can finally be put to rest :).

[cyborg28]

Hi,

I know I am late to the party, but here is my solution.

Use a socket 7 Heatsink and fan. Then cut and bent coat hanger wire to make a spring clip to hold the HSF using the two loops on the motherboard. Use the northbridge cooler as an example to work from, but measure the distance for the processor loops as it is a larger spacing.

Sorry about the image size/quality but I think it serves the purpose.

My problem is that i can get the power switch to turn on, and the cpu & psu fans spin, but there are no beeps and there is no display.

What sort of power supply / adapter are you using and where did you get it?

Thanks,

Cyborg28

http://i56.tinypic.com/2hxc9q1.jpg