Please take the time to read this that is all I ask

[Snowman]

I have a very dear and true friend that I would go to the ends of the earth to help out but I may just be keeping his dogs for awhile instead. His wife's parents both died some years back and they have been working extremely hard to adopt her little brother and sister who are still minors. They already had custody of her brother with no issues, and as of yesterday got custody of her little sister. I am extremely proud to call these people friends as they are the best people one could ask for in a friend. They also have two young children who they love very dearly. However they were given an ultimatum in gaining custody of the sister that they have to remove their dogs or they will not be granted custody. If you do not like dogs, especially dogs with a bad reputation be forewarned your spidy senses will remain inflamed for as long as you stay in this thread.

These dogs are American Pit Bull Terriers that have been raised around the two children and the older brother. These dogs have proven they will protect their family more than once and do nothing but run and play and are just plain good dogs. I have a pup from one of their litters that is just as good natured as they are. However the state of Ohio has deemed that it is necessary to remove these dogs for the sake of the child they are taking responsibility for. In a time where I read more stories than I care to about child neglect, child trafficking, and a hell of a lot worse I want to know where a judge can get on his high horse and dictate how someone lives. Not to mention that they deemed the conditions okay for the custody of the older brother and not a single qualm with raising two babies around these dogs as they were deemed not a threat however now they are?

I will leave it at that before I get too fired up at work over it but for now I am so agitated I am ready to start a 501C3 so that I can start a bully breed rescue. I understand not every dog is a good dog, but they are just like people in the sense that we are all judged by our worst examples not our best.

[xr4man]

i'm a huge dog person and i agree completely with you.

i had a rottweiler that was the absolute sweetest dog you could possibly imagine. she even rivaled my pekingese for sweetness. i don't think she had a mean bone in her. even my shih-tzu is 100 times more aggressive than she was.

so, good for you that you are willing to take the dogs to help them out.


i'm reminded of a story about a colorado cop from the merkur forum i'm on. he had a call for a domestic disturbance and apparently the couple had a pit bull puppy. not more than a couple months old. well anyway, in denver the bully breeds are banned, so the authorities were going to take the puppy and put it down. but my friend (the cop) took it instead since he didn't live in city limits. and of course it is a wonderful dog for him and his family.

[BuzzKillington]

People who think all pits are violent should refer to "Sharky" on youtube.

[Snowman]

People who think all pits are violent should refer to "Sharky" on youtube.

I posted a pitbull sharky vid in the video section here a few months ago and I am subbed as well to her channel.

[farlo]

its all about how the dogs are brought up, with any breed really. treat them well and most of the time there's never anything to worry about.

[blaze15301]

the law sucks. if a judge says they have to go then they really have to go. no way around it. its all about of bs political nonsence.id know my moms going threw this right now.

[Snowman]

the law sucks. if a judge says they have to go then they really have to go. no way around it. its all about of bs political nonsence.id know my moms going threw this right now.

There is no law nor legal precedence where he is living. He is not within city limits, nor is there a county ordinance against it. This is something handed down personally from a judge and as far as I can tell there is no legal substance behind it.

[SXRguyinMA]

I personally own a 3 1/2 year old pit bull mix and she's the sweetest, most loving dog I've EVER seen. She's absolutely amazing with children, and loves to snuggle. It infuriates me to no end that these poor dogs get targeted so much. Yes there are mean ones, but only if they're raised to be that way. And of course the only ones you ever hear about are the bad ones, hence the bad rap. It's sad, but unfortunately it's going to be a tough thing to change. My wife and I are responsible pit owners. We know what she is capable of, and how to properly socialize her.

Here's some neat facts:
http://animal.discovery.com/petsource/bully-breeds/about/5-bully-breed-facts.html

Unfortunately, the best thing they can do is find someone to adopt them. Shelters are bad, as they're overcrowded already and most only hold them for a set time before they're put down. I know personally if for some reason it came down to it my wife and I would move before we gave up our dog. It'd be like asking someone to give up their child.

[Snowman]

I personally own a 3 1/2 year old pit bull mix and she's the sweetest, most loving dog I've EVER seen. She's absolutely amazing with children, and loves to snuggle. It infuriates me to no end that these poor dogs get targeted so much. Yes there are mean ones, but only if they're raised to be that way. And of course the only ones you ever hear about are the bad ones, hence the bad rap. It's sad, but unfortunately it's going to be a tough thing to change. My wife and I are responsible pit owners. We know what she is capable of, and how to properly socialize her.

Here's some neat facts:
http://animal.discovery.com/petsource/bully-breeds/about/5-bully-breed-facts.html

Unfortunately, the best thing they can do is find someone to adopt them. Shelters are bad, as they're overcrowded already and most only hold them for a set time before they're put down. I know personally if for some reason it came down to it my wife and I would move before we gave up our dog. It'd be like asking someone to give up their child.

most of that I actually knew, when I got into a feud with a guy on a forum about bullies he said that they were all vicious blood thirsty animals and after I was done laughing I referenced one of the largest working dog communities is actually bully breeds. Because of their temperament and dedication to their owners/trainers they are some of the best therapy and recovery dogs out there, contrary to popular belief about their temperament.

[x88x]

Sucks for your friends...though, it could be worse, I suppose, if they just got custody denied outright. If the dog requirement is just something the judge threw in there from personal bias, with no basis in law, then he is completely out of line and I would appeal that case. Judges enforce the law, they do not make the law. If this judge is in the habit of doing stuff like this, I would say at the very least he should be reported to his governing body and disciplined, if not disbarred.

EDIT:
Perhaps a compromise if they can't get the dog provision thrown out. I assume once they gain custody, child services will have to be sent to check on them occasionally for a while..maybe volunteer to let animal control (or whatever) come around with them and check the dogs to make sure that they're being well treated. Yes, it's an unnecessary invasion of privacy, but if they can't get that provision taken out completely it's better than giving up the dogs.

[Snowman]

My two cents is he threw his own bias in because he knew they had fought so hard to get custody that they wouldn't try to argue with him. I want to help but i don't know what course to take.

[x88x]

Talk to them with their lawyer (I assume they have one after fighting for custody for so long?) and see if they can appeal provisions after gaining custody. That would, imo, be the best course of action for the sister, if they can do it. If they can't, see who they can appeal the decision to. Then, once the case is over and done with, file a complaint with the local Bar Association and pursue it until they take action. Like I said, if there is no law or legal precedent for that provision, then he is completely out of line and he needs to get slapped back in...it's just a matter of figuring out who can do said slapping.

[SXRguyinMA]

Because of their temperament and dedication to their owners/trainers they are some of the best therapy and recovery dogs out there, contrary to popular belief about their temperament.

This, unfortunately, is the same reason they make such good fighting dogs. They're VERY strong animals, and all they want to do it please you. If them fighting makes their master happy, it's what they learn to do.

My girl was used as a bait dog (a dog thats muzzled and chained so others can attack it, for fight training), and she was very timid and nervous when we first got her, and rightfully so. But a little over 2 years later, and she's a whole different dog. She's palyful and loving, and if you're playing, and she accidentally even touches any part of you with her teeth she immediately gets on the ground and rolls on her back to submit and show she wasn't being aggressive.

On the note of temperament, here are some interesting reads:
http://www.pitbullproject.ca/CanineBehavior.pdf

http://www.examiner.com/animal-welfare-in-chicago/pit-bulls-score-better-on-temperament-tests-than-the-general-dog-population

[Snowman]

This, unfortunately, is the same reason they make such good fighting dogs. They're VERY strong animals, and all they want to do it please you. If them fighting makes their master happy, it's what they learn to do.

My girl was used as a bait dog (a dog thats muzzled and chained so others can attack it, for fight training), and she was very timid and nervous when we first got her, and rightfully so. But a little over 2 years later, and she's a whole different dog. She's palyful and loving, and if you're playing, and she accidentally even touches any part of you with her teeth she immediately gets on the ground and rolls on her back to submit and show she wasn't being aggressive.

On the note of temperament, here are some interesting reads:
http://www.pitbullproject.ca/CanineBehavior.pdf

http://www.examiner.com/animal-welfare-in-chicago/pit-bulls-score-better-on-temperament-tests-than-the-general-dog-population

Preaching to the choir sir, I am on my third and they all have been wonderful with kids and do whatever it takes to make me happy. I am starting to think my new one could live on good boys alone versus food.

[SXRguyinMA]

I am starting to think my new one could live on good boys alone versus food.

HAHA I totally agree! "Good girl" gets a ferocious tail wag and perked ears :D


http://a6.sphotos.ak.fbcdn.net/hphotos-ak-snc3/26021_103744462999237_100000910526206_32916_139732 0_n.jpg

[dr.walrus]

I've always found the fighting dog thing very reactionary - certainly I met several in New Zealand that were loving, affectionate, friendly animals.

I wouldn't agree that you can train out all aggression from pit bulls in general, though many individuals certainly aren't agressive in the slightest - I found them to be quite strong willed, despite being sweet, but I'm a dog lover through and through, and the suggestion that there are certain 'Satanic' breeds is very, very odd to me.

I will, however, add that the British Kennel Club recommend that no young child ever be left alone with a dog, and I think this really does have merit. I would, personally be more cautious with a child around a dog of this type of build and temperament, but that's just common sense, right?

[Snowman]

I've always found the fighting dog thing very reactionary - certainly I met several in New Zealand that were loving, affectionate, friendly animals.

I wouldn't agree that you can train out all aggression from pit bulls in general, though many individuals certainly aren't agressive in the slightest - I found them to be quite strong willed, despite being sweet, but I'm a dog lover through and through, and the suggestion that there are certain 'Satanic' breeds is very, very odd to me.

I will, however, add that the British Kennel Club recommend that no young child ever be left alone with a dog, and I think this really does have merit. I would, personally be more cautious with a child around a dog of this type of build and temperament, but that's just common sense, right?

Absolutely the truth and a well formed response as pretty much what I have gotten on all the boards I posted this on. Sure there were a few tell that to the hundreds of people that lost their children last year to a precious, sweet, pit bull even though there were only 34 deaths last year from dog attacks. I am getting better at this thicked skin thing as I realize more and more common sense isn't as common as it used to be. I have also come to realize that people have such deep seated opinions that even if you blatantly prove them wrong with fact they will still argue with you.

[dr.walrus]

Whilst this is changing the subject a little, I will touch on the idea of pedigrees in general - I have a far greater objection to the idea of 'pedigrees' than I do of 'dangerous breeds'.

My brother is a vet who worked for a long time before he qualified at a kennels, and the other night, after a few beers, he said 'what scares me most is that I can guess the problem more than 50% by the breed alone. Pugs can't breathe, Shar Peis have skin problems, Alsatians have no hips left, labradors are riddled with osteoarthritis...'.

Personally, I think these are the breed problems people are not willing to talk about, and it's much easier to point the finger of breeding problems at the dogs theselves, just by judging fighting breeds.

Sorry if I'm taking your thread off course a bit, but in summary I think the real problem here comes from our obsession with selective breeding, and the warped view it gives us of the animals themselves. If we were all perhaps more willing to own mutts, we'd have less negative perception of breeds, and it'd be much better for the animals too.

[Snowman]

Whilst this is changing the subject a little, I will touch on the idea of pedigrees in general - I have a far greater objection to the idea of 'pedigrees' than I do of 'dangerous breeds'.

My brother is a vet who worked for a long time before he qualified at a kennels, and the other night, after a few beers, he said 'what scares me most is that I can guess the problem more than 50% by the breed alone. Pugs can't breathe, Shar Peis have skin problems, Alsatians have no hips left, labradors are riddled with osteoarthritis...'.

Personally, I think these are the breed problems people are not willing to talk about, and it's much easier to point the finger of breeding problems at the dogs theselves, just by judging fighting breeds.

Sorry if I'm taking your thread off course a bit, but in summary I think the real problem here comes from our obsession with selective breeding, and the warped view it gives us of the animals themselves. If we were all perhaps more willing to own mutts, we'd have less negative perception of breeds, and it'd be much better for the animals too.

That is a very good topic and although a bit off topic I don't mind. I actually looked at my purebred a lot before decided to get him. He is definitely not a breeders choice as a purebred. I had a breeder look at me sideways when I showed him the parents as he said the dam was a lab and as I laughed I produced the papers guaranteeing her pedigree. Unfortunately with most selective breeding the closer you get to the perfect pedigree the more prone you are to problems. Take APBT for example as they more and more breed for the muscular stout tone in them instead of the true form of a pit bull the more their shoulders turn in and eventually have to be put down. Most pedigrees are pigeon toed muscle masses that can't move around very well instead of the sleek athlete the breed truly is.

[x88x]

I completely agree. Heck, just hearing my friend talk about the medical problems he's had with his two Scottish Wolfhounds (I'm pretty sure that's what they are) makes me want to never even think about getting a purebred. They're sweet dogs...even if they are dumb as stumps..but I'm sorry, if you have to spend thousands of dollars in surgery and physical therapy in the first few years just so they can actually walk, something's wrong. Any high-school biology student can tell you inbreeding results in a genetically weaker animal...and yet that's exactly what all breeders do. Yes, they try and keep the gene pool as large as possible, but the more you focus on one trait, the smaller it's going to get. No, give me a mut any day. :D

[Snowman]

I completely agree. Heck, just hearing my friend talk about the medical problems he's had with his two Scottish Wolfhounds (I'm pretty sure that's what they are) makes me want to never even think about getting a purebred. They're sweet dogs...even if they are dumb as stumps..but I'm sorry, if you have to spend thousands of dollars in surgery and physical therapy in the first few years just so they can actually walk, something's wrong. Any high-school biology student can tell you inbreeding results in a genetically weaker animal...and yet that's exactly what all breeders do. Yes, they try and keep the gene pool as large as possible, but the more you focus on one trait, the smaller it's going to get. No, give me a mut any day. :D

http://www.dogbreedinfo.com/images15/IrishWolfhoundFrankBrendan.JPG

Irish Wolfhound?? If they aren't fed right and are overworked before they are done growing it can severely mess up their skeletal structure. They also have a very short life span even for a dog I was on an adoption list but decided against it.

[dr.walrus]

http://www.dogbreedinfo.com/images15/IrishWolfhoundFrankBrendan.JPG


Irish Wolfhound?? If they aren't fed right and are overworked before they are done growing it can severely mess up their skeletal structure. They also have a very short life span even for a dog I was on an adoption list but decided against it.

I'm guessing it's a scottish deerhound, they're much smaller (but still quite tall!). Yeah my first thought on a wolfhound is also 'was it overwalked when it was young?'.

They are awesome dogs though, and, oddly, I'm not overworried by big dogs with short lifespans. They just die in their sleep aged 7 or 8, none of the protracted suffering you get with lots of dogs - I spent 2 years watching my childhood dog die. There was always every chance she could get better - until she eventually had to be put down, aged 15.

[dr.walrus]

About Irish wolfhounds - they were trained in the Irish wars against the English to take down men from horseback. You'd never believe it til you saw a photo like that!

[Snowman]

I'm guessing it's a scottish deerhound, they're much smaller (but still quite tall!). Yeah my first thought on a wolfhound is also 'was it overwalked when it was young?'.

They are awesome dogs though, and, oddly, I'm not overworried by big dogs with short lifespans. They just die in their sleep aged 7 or 8, none of the protracted suffering you get with lots of dogs - I spent 2 years watching my childhood dog die. There was always every chance she could get better - until she eventually had to be put down, aged 15.

With the life span and the age of my youngest he would be extremely attached and at a vulnerable age when the dog died so I decided against it. They are awesome family dogs and purported the only problem is the occasional dust off patter from the wagging 3 foot tail :banana:. I plan on having a few to keep in the field once the kids are a little older.


About Irish wolfhounds - they were trained in the Irish wars against the English to take down men from horseback. You'd never believe it til you saw a photo like that!

it's also funny because they are thought of as being the most gentle of the "giants"

[dr.walrus]

it's also funny because they are thought of as being the most gentle of the "giants"

And look at what pitbulls were bred for!

[Snowman]

And look at what pitbulls were bred for!

Stop using logic they might want to ban wolfhounds next :D:whistler:

[xr4man]

I completely agree. Heck, just hearing my friend talk about the medical problems he's had with his two Scottish Wolfhounds (I'm pretty sure that's what they are) makes me want to never even think about getting a purebred. They're sweet dogs...even if they are dumb as stumps..but I'm sorry, if you have to spend thousands of dollars in surgery and physical therapy in the first few years just so they can actually walk, something's wrong. Any high-school biology student can tell you inbreeding results in a genetically weaker animal...and yet that's exactly what all breeders do. Yes, they try and keep the gene pool as large as possible, but the more you focus on one trait, the smaller it's going to get. No, give me a mut any day. :D

that is a common misconception. first off, mutts can have the same if not more medical problems than "pure breds" due to the complete lack of research on the health of the parents. secondly, the true breeders will research back through many generations of of the lines of the parents to ensure as few medical issues as possible. now there are the unscrupulous breeders that only do it for money and those are the ones that end up with puppies that develop the real medical issues. mainly they are the puppy mills or uneducated back yard breeders. of course there are also the hobbyist breeders that do their diligent research into the line of the parents as well.
thirdly, real breeders breed to enhance the health of the breed, not just to breed for a specific trait.

[x88x]

I'm not sure exactly what breed my friends dogs are. I thought Scottish Wolfhound, but I could be wrong. They're both around 2-3 years old, I think, and last I saw them, they were about 32" at their backs, probably about 37-38" at the top of their heads (both on all fours). Shorthairs, but I think I saw pictures of wolfhounds that showed shorthair when young? They were both rescues, so they may have been improperly raised for their breed when they were very young, idk.

[dr.walrus]

mutts can have the same if not more medical problems than "pure breds" due to the complete lack of research on the health of the parents.

Agreed, but they don't have breed specific health problems.


secondly, the true breeders will research back through many generations of of the lines of the parents to ensure as few medical issues as possible. now there are the unscrupulous breeders that only do it for money and those are the ones that end up with puppies that develop the real medical issues. mainly they are the puppy mills or uneducated back yard breeders. of course there are also the hobbyist breeders that do their diligent research into the line of the parents as well.
thirdly, real breeders breed to enhance the health of the breed, not just to breed for a specific trait.
There are several problems with this:

Inbreeding. As much as breeders say it is 'avoided', it's not only the norm, it's imperative to the idea of pedigree breeding as we know it
'Breeding to enhance the health of the breed'? So Greyhound breeders try to make shorter, stockier greyhounds so they break their legs less? Try to breed less wrinkly shar peis? Try to breed smaller wolfhounds? These problems are inherent in the breed standards.
The idea that only the 'puppy mills' and 'back yard breeders' produce dogs with these genetic defects is a complete lie that is perpetrated by the dog breeding industry. Yes, there are better and worse ways of doing things, but the extreme lengths breeds are taken to is the inherent problem.Do you think a 'responsible breeder' wouldn't prduce a pug or English bulldog with breathing problems? Because, in many cases, almost all examples of these breeds have these problems.


Several studies have shown that mixed-breed dogs have a health advantage. A German study finds that "Mongrels require less veterinary treatment".[5] (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mixed-breed_dog#cite_note-4) Studies in Sweden have found that "Mongrel dogs are less prone to many diseases than the average purebred dog"[6] (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mixed-breed_dog#cite_note-5) and, referring to death rates, “Mongrels were consistently in the low risk category”.[7] (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mixed-breed_dog#cite_note-6) However, sale of dogs through pet shops are illegal in these countries, therefore puppymills (which use inbreeding to safe costs) are less prevelent than in other states.
In one landmark study, the effect of breed on longevity in the pet dog was analyzed using mortality data from 23,535 pet dogs. The data was obtained from North American veterinary teaching hospitals. The median age at death was determined for pure and mixed breed dogs of different body weights. Within each body weight category, the median age at death was lower for pure breed dogs compared with mixed breed dogs. The median age at death was "8.5 years for all mixed breed dogs, and 6.7 years for all pure breed dogs" in the study.[8] (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mixed-breed_dog#cite_note-7)
A 2003 study in Denmark also found "Higher average longevity of mixed-breed dogs (grouped together).[9] (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mixed-breed_dog#cite_note-8)

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mixed-breed_dog

[xr4man]

no, inbreeding is absolutely not imperative. and it is avoided by proper breeders.

i know quite a few breeders that would be more than happy to set you straight on your incorrect assumptions.


as an example of why you are completely wrong, take shih-tzus. every single shih-tzu in existence today came from a stock of only 7 males and 7 females. this was because the dogs were almost completely exterminated during an invasion of china. and now, after over a century of careful breeding they are a very common breed AND they have very few inherent health problems.

[Snowman]

they have very few inherent health problems.

except my boot... and it looks like they have liver problems, as well hip dysplasia and most airlines will not handle them if any stops on the itinerary are expected to be over 75 degrees due to breathing problems.

[dr.walrus]

no, inbreeding is absolutely not imperative. and it is avoided by proper breeders.
Of course it is, how else do you get rare mutations spread throughout a gene pool of a breed?!



i know quite a few breeders that would be more than happy to set you straight on your incorrect assumptions.
'Assumptions' that are backed up by scientific research... of course breeders would dispute it, because they have a vested interest!


as an example of why you are completely wrong, take shih-tzus. every single shih-tzu in existence today came from a stock of only 7 males and 7 females. this was because the dogs were almost completely exterminated during an invasion of china. and now, after over a century of careful breeding they are a very common breed AND they have very few inherent health problems.
Okay, so I'm 'completely wrong' in my 'assumptions'? Your example is entirely based on severe inbreeding!

[xr4man]

except my boot...


watch it or this is going to turn real unfriendly real fast.

[Snowman]

watch it or this is going to turn real unfriendly real fast.

your right I will let my vicious pit bull eat them instead.. do you honestly think a self touted responsible pet owner would kick a dog?:down:

[x88x]

except my boot...

Man, I know what you mean...eating that treated leather can't be good for them. :P

[xr4man]

hahaha, when my little shih-t head decides he's not getting enough attention, he'll go and grab a shoe and bring it back to you, just like a rotten kid that has to act out to get attention. he never does anything to hurt it, just brings it and shows you that he has it and he knows he's not supposed to.

[Snowman]

hahaha, when my little shih-t head decides he's not getting enough attention, he'll go and grab a shoe and bring it back to you, just like a rotten kid that has to act out to get attention. he never does anything to hurt it, just brings it and shows you that he has it and he knows he's not supposed to.

I hope you don't reinforce this bad behavior

[xr4man]

no, i tell him to "drop it" and take it away to another room. then wait a couple minutes till he is not interested in the shoe anymore and play with him. it's important that he doesn't associate the "bad" behavior with getting something he wants in return. being a rescue and apparently not having been (for lack of a better term) put in his place early on, fixing his bad behaviors has been an uphill battle. but, he has gotten at least 90% better than he was.