Hardware/software compatability issues (OS)

[Munty]

Hi guys, post for a friend of mine tonight who has been suffering at the hands of a Windows 7 desktop for sometime which blatantly refuses to let us play any games together so today we wiped it and installed XP. Trouble is it now seems that there is some hardware in the system that is incompatible with XP (or at least that's my take on it)

I tried to re-format and install XP in the guy's computer but it wouldn't initiate the XP cd menu (loaded all the blue screens and files but then went straight on to start windows and skipped the install/repair page) So I put the HDD in my computer, deleted the existing partitions then booted from an XP cd and reformatted with a fresh install of XP. It ran fine on my computer so we swapped it back into his. It tells us that it's unable to boot though and basically behaves as if there is no OS on the HDD at all.

I'm guessing this must be a compatability issue so I've advised we just reinstall 7 and he learns to live with it but he says the computer didn't come with a copy?! It's only about 3 months old but the only CDs he has are 3 blank re-writables so we're a bit screwed.

Anyway if compatability IS what's preventing us from booting into XP then we need to either replace whatever is causing that issue or get hold of another windows 7 cd. Neither of which will be free as I dobn't know anyone local with said CD. We have the license code so just need an install disk...

So if anyone can help us out here that'd be great as he's now without a computer! He bought it from Comet (in the UK) a few months ago and specs follow. The only thing on the HDD is a clean install of XP.

Acer Aspire X3400
Windows 7 Home Premium 64-bit
AMD Athlon II X2 220 dual-core processor
3GB DDR3 memory
500GB HDD
DVD-Super(:p) Multi drive
Nvidia Geforce 9200
'Multi-in-one' media card reader

Not sure what to do from here on out so any advice would be much appreciated. He's coming back tomorrow to pick it up and maybe take it to a little shop in town, any answers by then would be sterling ;)

[slaveofconvention]

Chances are, there was a software application on the hard drive with the ability to create restore disks for the original OS and software (along with Acer's usual plethora of utterly useless software and trials) which basically means yes, you're right, without an OEM DVD for the 7 install, you're pretty much stuck. The licence key on the computer should work with any OEM DVD if you can get hold of one BUT there's always a chance that the SATA controller may need additional software to work properly even with an OEM disk. It's probably worth having a look on Acers support pages to see if they provide a SATA driver program (as long as the OEM disk can detect the DVD drive it will give you the option to install additional drivers during setup, usually from a USB drive) - the other thing you may need to do is get into the BIOS and make sure the system is set up to boot from the DVD/Optical drive BEFORE the fixed HDD.

[x88x]

When you get it back to 7, try running the problematic programs in compatibility mode. OOC, what programs were they?

[xr4man]

you can probably call up acer and request the system restore disks. since the pc is only a few months old, it should still be under warranty. i had a friend who's harddrive became corrupted and we couldn't reinstall from the install partition. he called up sony and only had to drop 1 F-bomb before they decided they would send a system restore disk for free.

[Munty]

thanks for the responses guys, really appreciated. Firstly, this computer basically has no BIOS which is very wierd from the get go... At the startup screen I have DEL for setup and F12 for boot menu. The boot menu shows four options and selecting one restarts and boots from said destination (so you must select manually each and every startup if you want to boot from anywhere other than the HDD) the setup button is wierd, it's just a black screen that says something about windows and then has an option to use some sort of memory tool further down. No BIOS anywhere, not a single blue screen at all in fact!

The game that had us lose patience in this rig was Act of War : Direct Action which we've developed a great enjoyment for over LAN. It ran fine on his system but when we installed the expansion, AoW : High Treason, it no longer worked and came back with the little shield icon on the exe's for both games and kept telling us to run as administrator. There was only one account and it was admin and we were in it! I fiddled with compatability, googled the hell out of similar problems and tried every single one of them with no luck. He's tried a lot of other games too which he says he can't get to work on XP and to be honest my knowledge of XP over that of Vista and 7 makes it much easier to just get him running on XP so we simply don't have any compatability issues and I can fix every eventuality that may arise due to XP being so much simpler than the crappy new ones :p

And yes I know there are people here who will try to sway me but I hate them and will continue to hate them forever because of issues like this. Seriousl who builds a computer that's not compatible with any other OS than the one installed???

My mate is on his way over now and we'll probably take it to the indy shop in town to see if he'll help us with a reinstall. If he won't/can't then I'll try calling up for a recovery disk but it'd be better to just get it working again really :(

As an alternative, is there a particular component in his computer we could replace to make it XP compatible? It's a mini system which I've had little experience with but I guess not too much can be different? I think the GFX are onboard aren't they as I can't see anything but the board and other hardware. Anyway, if we can end up running XP instead of 7 that'd be cool :p

Thanks again for the help.

[crenn]

I've been using Windows Vista and 7 for some time. I've rarely had a problem, the game saying it needed to run as administrator is probably lazy programming on Atari's part. However, it would be fine to run as administrator. Windows Vista and 7 ran programs as a 'limited' user unless the program requested at start up or you tell it to, run in the administrive mode. Annoying? Not really. There is a reason why it's done like that, to attempt to prevent viruses/trojans doing damage to the computer.

Anyway, I'm guessing you didn't actually allow it to run as an admin? I've used XP mixed with Vista and 7 machines with no issues, there is rarely ever a problem. There are things different with Vista and 7, mainly done to prevent users who know very little, to cause major security holes. I suspect you may have erased all partitions on the HDD, including the recovery partition, and XP does not like suddenly moving between computers, so it may have worked on yours, but because of a different CPU or chipset, XP may have decided not to work.

However, from the specs you've given, I can't see why XP couldn't run on it, although, I'd recommend 7 over XP any day. The 'BIOS' screen you're describing is the Windows 7 bootloader.

One last thing, 95 is simpler than XP, but how many people use that? MS-DOS is simpler than XP, but how many use that? There are always going to be changes to an OS, some you might like, some you might hate. There is only so long you can wait before you're forced to upgrade just so you can play/use a new program. The point is, change happens, deal with it.

[mDust]

I'd recommend reinstalling 7. It's just better than both XP and Vista in almost every way. It does take some getting used to, but you should become acclimated in only a week or two. You've just gotta jump in feet first.
Microsoft also provides a program called 'XP Mode', which is a step above and beyond compatibility mode. It's about a 500MB download from here (http://www.microsoft.com/windows/virtual-pc/download.aspx). If XP mode doesn't allow you to run the game, then it's not a compatibility problem you're experiencing.

[xr4man]

xp mode is only available for 7 pro or higher. but not home.

[mDust]

xp mode is only available for 7 pro or higher. but not home.

Huh, well that's dumb.

As it turns out, you can still do it with every version of 7 except starter:
http://www.mydigitallife.info/2009/12/14/workaround-to-install-windows-xp-mode-in-windows-7-home-premium-and-home-basic/
You just have to provide your own copy of XP. Since you have one, you're set. It's basically a virtual machine but it's specially integrated to share the same desktop and file system.

If you can't get that to work, I'd recommend installing 7 then installing a virtual machine on that. Virtual box (http://www.virtualbox.org/) has always worked well for me.

[xr4man]

i'll have to check that out later, just in case i come across something that doesn't like to run in compatibility mode.

[farlo]

Ive ran into a couple games not working right in win7, when you run as admin, check the box to disable visual themes, and disable desktop composition. had to use that for one of the stalker games that refused to run, and Sims 3. not guaranteed to work, but may be worth a try.

[Munty]

Thanks guys for loads of feedback :D We took it to the little shop in town today and left it with the guy there who will try and get it running on XP but failing that will reinstall 7. Regarding compatability issues, I tried everything... As I already mentioned I told the program to run as an administrator and did absolutely everything else that is advised by people with similar issues and solutions. I googled every single topic I could find with similar issues and nothing I tried would solve the problem so we just gave up.

What I don't understand is how 7 can be so illogical and inconsistent. Direct Action has always worked fine on his 7 system but then installing the expansion caused neither to run, stating the need for administrator rights when none had been needed before... We uninstalled the new game with no affect on the original and even uninstalled the original and tried a fresh install with no luck. I even bought the guy another copy of the game to try (as we were using just one to play via LAN) and this still didn't work!

That's the only instance I can personally vouch for on that system as the others I wasn't there for but for me if it's that difficult to get even one game working I don't really care to subject myself to it. As for 95 being simpler than XP, that's debatably true but it's because there were less features. The statement that DOS is simpler than 95 however is nonsense. You give a standard pc user a 95 platform and a DOS platform and see which one they get working first. All Windows OSs require very minimal understanding by the user to operate basic functions and programs but DOS needs some pretty hefty background knowledge to even navigate let alone use.

All that said, it's each to his own and this like all web forums is a place for personal opinions. Mine is that Windows went horribly wrong after XP, a lot of people agree, a lot of people disagree. A lot of people probably don't know what Windows is but that doesn't mean it'll suddenly blink out of existence ;) So yes, it probably does have it's benefits but for me it's a waste of time. Sadly they're already beginning to release titles with no pre-Vista compatability so at some point I'll have to move on but it won't be yet ;)

I'll update with details of my mates comp when I have them, hopefully it'll help someone else in the future :D

[x88x]

As for XP being simpler than 7, that's debatably true but it's because there were less features.
FTFY ;)

As for the game not working after the expansion pack, I would be willing to bet the expansion modified the original game install files, so no, it's not really being inconsistent. Touchy and annoying, yes. Inconsistent, no.

Regarding 'XP Mode', it's just an XP VM running on Virtual PC, which is, imo, about the worst virtualization platform on the market atm, in terms of efficiency and functionality. Even if you have 7 Pro or Ultimate, I would highly recommend taking the XP license MS gives you and using it in Virtualbox or VMware Server instead (personally I prefer Virtualbox).

[Munty]

But even if it did alter some of the original files, they would have been removed after a full uninstall so a fresh install of the original title surely should have worked...

And I did mean 95 and XP as it was in response to the following by Crenn;

One last thing, 95 is simpler than XP, but how many people use that? MS-DOS is simpler than XP, but how many use that?

Interestingly though I did mistype as I said DOS and 95 whereas Crenn said DOS and XP. I still stand by the fact that DOS is in no way simpler than anything though. Even for those of us who can use it proficiently it's nowhere near as user-friendly as any newer Windows OS...

[xr4man]

but what you are forgetting is the uninstall program is notorious for not removing all the install files and reinstalling may have seen that there were newer versions of the files already present and decided to use them.

[x88x]

But even if it did alter some of the original files, they would have been removed after a full uninstall so a fresh install of the original title surely should have worked...
They should have been deleted on uninstall, but were they? Like xr4man said, uninstallers have always been notorious for not actually removing all of the files relevant to a program. There also may have been entries in the registry that were affecting things.


And I did mean 95 and XP as it was in response to the following by Crenn
Yes, I know. I was trying to make a subtle point about changes in Operating Systems over time. ;) And yes, MS-DOS definitely is simpler than XP (or 95 for that matter). Not in terms of ease of use, but definitely in terms of codebase and functionality, which I think is what crenn was referring to.

[xr4man]

btw, dos6.2 and windows 3.1 run fast as hell on an amd k6 450mhz processor. :D

[LiTHiUM0XiD3]

user-friendly=dumb as a stick

[x88x]

user-friendly=dumb as a stick

lol. Yeah, gimme a Linux CLI any day. :D

[Munty]

btw, dos6.2 and windows 3.1 run fast as hell on an amd k6 450mhz processor. :D

Faster than we can type in commands I'm sure lol

Not got the comp back yet so don't know if it's going to be XP or 7 yet. I dod have a nasty side-effect on my own computer now that I can't seem to shift so I may as well look for help on that front while the topic is open :D

As I said, I put his HDD in my rig to install XP and when I booted up it prompted me to select which one I wanted to load as you'd expect. Trouble is it still hasn't realised that the other HDD isn't here now so it prompts for input every time I boot up.

I left it to boot into the one I knew wasn't here and hoped it would remove the option once it realised the hardware was missing (much like the add/remove program list removes names of already deleted programs when it can't uninstall them) but it's still there every time I boot up and frustratingly is the first option so I must select the second one every time.

Device manager shows no references to the HDD in question so I'm wondering how to get rid of it. Is it a BIOS thing? Clearly I don't want to change the boot order as that'll still bring the same screen up and waste 20 odd seconds of my life if I don't select it manually. Can I use BIOS to tell the comp that this HDD is no longer present though? I know I had to alter some BIOS settings to gain access to my secondary HDD when I did that backup a little while ago and unlike my friends PC I'm perfectly familiar with the BIOS on this PC so any advice should be easily implemented :D

[x88x]

That's the Windows boot manager again. To modify it in Windows:
>right-click 'My Computer'
->Properties
-->Advanced
--->Startup and Recovery
---->Settings
----->Change stuff

[Munty]

Cool thanks man. Just changed it to the other boot option, will it still display the option at startup though? It gives me
"Microsoft Windows XP Home Edition" /fastdetect (the old setting)
"Microsoft Windows XP Home Edition" /noexecute=optin /fastdetect (the new setting)

Does that sound right?

[x88x]

Well, you can delete entries or just set the time it sits at the menu to 0. Either of those will make it stop going to the menu on boot.

[mDust]

Run>'msconfig'>boot tab>select the erroneous OS>delete.

I think changing the wait time to 0 with the wrong OS as default will just prevent anything from loading.

[Munty]

I completely forgot I'd even changed this last night as this morning the comp loaded up fine! As usual I switched it on before sitting down so I didn't see whether it went to the boot screen but I'll try to check next time I reboot. If it still shows the other one as an option before it boots then I'll try using that deletion method so thanks mDust. Thanks to everyone else who's helped too, I still haven't heard from my mate yet so who knows what's happening there :p

[Munty]

Ok I know it's been a long time since I raised this but I've been dealing with just pressing enter on startup to load the right OS up to now... I've finally gone through MSconfig to the Boot.INI tab and I see both options but there is no way to delete either one...

Stranger still when I select 'check all boot paths' for the OS that is no longer present (as the HDD is gone!) it tells me all the paths seem to be fine!!!

As far as I can tell, the only thing I can do from this tab is change the default setting and how long I wait. From the;
>right-click 'My Computer'
->Properties
-->Advanced
--->Startup and Recovery
---->Settings
I can access a text document which represents the bootup screen text and I can delete the text that represents the second erroneous option but there is no way to remove it as an option so I'm still baffled and need more guidance please!

[x88x]

In the msconfig 'boot' tab there should be a 'delete' button.

[Munty]

Sadly not, that's the problem... :(

[TheMainMan]

I had a similar problem once after using an XP install to recover a 7 drive. Once I removed the XP drive from the system I still had the choice to select between the two even though the XP disc was sitting on my shelf. I used a piece of software called Tweak 7* to fix the boot table, which was something I was often doing back when I was running dual or tri boot. They have a version for XP and though I've never used it, it may be able to do what you want. While it is a commercial product the demo was all I needed to do what msconfig couldn't.
(I am in no way related to this company, this is my suggestion and testimonial).