infinitum pi

[Slug Toy]

ok all you philosiphizers and theoretical physicist and mathematicians. get ready to do some explaining, or to have your head explode.

hopefully everyone knows what pi is by now.... 3.14159.....2...6...4...5.... and it goes on and on forever supposedly. hopefully, everyone also knows that the circumference of a circle (distance around it) is equal to pi times its diameter (distance across).

heres where im going with this. if pi's decimal places go on and on and on forever, then doesnt this mean it has an infinite value set associated with it? further to this, doesnt this mean that pi itself is the embodiment of infinity? think about it for a second. we cant find the end of that number, and computers have been going for billions of decimal places at least. it HAS to be an infinite number, and that means it has to be approaching infinity all the time.

im not done yet either. getting back to the circle business. suppose you have a circle with a diameter of 1. the circumference would then be 1 times pi. now if pi is infinite, doesnt that mean that the circumference of the circle is 1 times infinity? the circumference just keeps going and going forever, just like pi.

even half of the circle is still equivalent to half of infinity, which is still equal to infinity. you cant divide forever into two finite amounts... they're now just two forevers. so then, even one microscopic point on a circle's circumference embodies infinity. even one atom associated with the circumference is now equal to infinity. now what does that say about the rest of the atoms in the circumference? how many times do we even count these atoms if the circumference keeps passing over them forever? doesnt this mean there are an infinite number of atoms in a circumference, each one being equal to infinity itself?

what happens if we cut the circle at one point and stretch it into a line? doesnt this mean that the line itself is composed of an infinite number of atoms/segments, and the line now goes on forever even though we can see both ends?

what the hell is going on here? what happens if we multiply 0 by infinity. is it equal to 0, or an infinite amount of nothing, which we cant even begin to quantify? infinite nothingness... could we see the end of it?

if someone can give me a logical answer for all of these questions i have put forth, ill give them a prize of some sort.

[Rankenphile]

ok all you philosiphizers and theoretical physicist and mathematicians. get ready to do some explaining, or to have your head explode.

hopefully everyone knows what pi is by now.... 3.14159.....2...6...4...5.... and it goes on and on forever supposedly. hopefully, everyone also knows that the circumference of a circle (distance around it) is equal to pi times its diameter (distance across).

heres where im going with this. if pi's decimal places go on and on and on forever, then doesnt this mean it has an infinite value set associated with it? further to this, doesnt this mean that pi itself is the embodiment of infinity? think about it for a second. we cant find the end of that number, and computers have been going for billions of decimal places at least. it HAS to be an infinite number, and that means it has to be approaching infinity all the time.

im not done yet either. getting back to the circle business. suppose you have a circle with a diameter of 1. the circumference would then be 1 times pi. now if pi is infinite, doesnt that mean that the circumference of the circle is 1 times infinity? the circumference just keeps going and going forever, just like pi.

even half of the circle is still equivalent to half of infinity, which is still equal to infinity. you cant divide forever into two finite amounts... they're now just two forevers. so then, even one microscopic point on a circle's circumference embodies infinity. even one atom associated with the circumference is now equal to infinity. now what does that say about the rest of the atoms in the circumference? how many times do we even count these atoms if the circumference keeps passing over them forever? doesnt this mean there are an infinite number of atoms in a circumference, each one being equal to infinity itself?

what happens if we cut the circle at one point and stretch it into a line? doesnt this mean that the line itself is composed of an infinite number of atoms/segments, and the line now goes on forever even though we can see both ends?

what the hell is going on here? what happens if we multiply 0 by infinity. is it equal to 0, or an infinite amount of nothing, which we cant even begin to quantify? infinite nothingness... could we see the end of it?

if someone can give me a logical answer for all of these questions i have put forth, ill give them a prize of some sort.

Get your prize ready.

Just because a number has a number of digits which seem infinite, that does not mean that it is. Simply because we have not found the end of the line does not mean that there is not one. Billions and billions of digits are a lot, sure. But hardly infinite.

Regardless, let's assume that pi has an infinite number of digits. This does not mean that the number or value itself is infinite. In fact, it is the exact oposite. It is very much a finite value. It is, in fact, 3.1415...and so on and so forth.

You cannot assume that a number that has an infinite number of digits is, in fact, infinite itself. It is what is known as an irrational number, as far as mathemeticians have been able to figure out. An irrational number is simply one that cannot be expressed rationally, as a fraction of any sort. The square root of three is another irrational number. In fact, there are an infinite number of irrational numbers, just as there is an infinite number of rational ones.

A circle with a radius of one, cut and straightened, would not have an infinite length. It would, in fact, be 2(pi) long, or just over six, but less than seven. Anything greater than six but less than seven is not infinite, although the string of digits which define that value may be infinite.

Make sense?

Moving on... a single point on an infinite line does not equal infinity. It is exactly one point. The fact that it is only one point means it is not infinite. It has been defined as being that point, and only that point. The line on either side of that point is infinite, but the point itself? Just a point.

Sorry to hack apart your logic there, but your earlier assumption that a number with an infinite number of digits had an infinite value threw off the rest of your reasoning.

After all, couldn't 1 be defined as 1.0000000000, and so on into infinity? Wouldn't that make one an infinite number? I've eaten one grape, but by eating one grape I wouldn't be able to assume I've then eaten an infinite number of grapes. Right?

Man, now I want grapes. I hope your prize was grapes.

[Rankenphile]

Oh, I missed your last question.

Anything times zero is zero. Therefore, zero times infinity equals zero. You would have exactly zero infinities, or you would have infinity zero times. Make sense?

And any line is made up of an infinite number of points, but that doesn't mean that the line itself is infinite. In fact, in being a line it is defined as finite. A line is simply all points between two defined ends. A ray is all points in one direction from one single end, stretching toward infinity. And for some reason, I forget what an infinite line is called, it's been 13 years since basic drafting.

[Omega]

Basically what ranken said, An infinite number has no set value, whereas Pi is 3.141592624-etc. Pi is, as ranken said, simply an irrational number.


I don't feel like restating everything ranken said, since that would be redundant.


Btw, ranken, an "infinite line" is just called a "line", because if is anything short of infinite then it's just a "line segment". =]

[Rankenphile]

Really? Man, it has been a while since drafting. Thanks Omega.

[Omega]

Really? Man, it has been a while since drafting. Thanks Omega.


No problem. I did that like last year or something (i know it was pretty recent, i still remember almost all of it)

[nil8]

Wow. I have been out of math too long. That was good.

[Slug Toy]

ok, i need you to open your minds a bit here. im either a frickin genius, or a complete moron. i do know what im talking about though.

i fully realise that pi "isnt" infinity. it only has an infinite number of decimal places. these questions werent really supposed to have serious answers. i was trying to trick you guys, and i was posing a hypothetical question. i mean, you have to admit, pi being the embodiment of infinity is pretty good, because if you look at a circle the right way, it is also infinite.

just take a while and think about it. assuming a number has an infinite supply of decimal places, well then it must travel on forever and be a perfect example of infinity.

im not looking to support my arguments or claim that they are correct. im just looking to cause mass hysteria.

so, im not an idiot. im just inspiring the type of imagination that we have going on in the "food for thought" thread... in a different area. maybe im working my way towards some sort of mathematical breakthrough too, but lets take it one step at a time.

so now that ive kind of cleared things up, go back and have a good look at my questions again. just make the assumtion that pi is now equal to infinity... and ill find some way to convince people of it at a later time. im particularly proud of the circle bit though, and the segment and atom ideas.

anyways... YA, stop being so serious and lets just do a "what if" thing here. maybe through this you'll even get some insight as to how i come up with things like the cocain whales and such... aside from having too much spare time. by the way, the prize hasnt been won yet, because you guys have to start thinking like i do first.

[The Modfather]

The answer is 42.

And the problem with your, er, problem is your assumption. You can't offer up a problem saying "just make the assumption that pi is now equal ti infinity" because it isn't. But okay, we'll assume it is even though it is, while we're at it lets assume that trees are made of ice cream, just because I'm hungry but okay, pi's infinite... You're right then... So?

A lot of things can be said if we just "assume that such and such is such and such" doesn't make it a theory though.

Try this one on for size.

Time is not the 4th dimension...

Time is to the 4th dimension as a ruler is to the 2nd and 3rd dimensions, a measuring tool.

The 4th dimension is motion. Time is the tool by which we measure motion. All dimensions exist outside of the ability of the human mind to concieve of them, Time however does not exist without a thinking mind to conceptualize it. Furthermore time, no matter how you percieve it, is always applied to a form of motion.

On the smaller scale, time is the motion of the hands on a clock around a dial. That motion is used to measure minutes, hours and seconds which measure days, weeks, months, years, decades, centuries, millenia and so on. But each and every one of those segments of time are in fact motions.

Moving up in scale, those motions are the movement of the earth, around its axis, giving us the days, around the sun, giving us years.

The movement of the solar system around the galaxy is also given a time measurment (every 240 million years) and so on and so forth. It all relates to motion.

Hence my theory that time isn't a dimension at all but simply the ruler to motion.

[DaveW]

I study Number Theory and Cryptography in Second Year University: Rankenphile pretty much hit it bang on.

But the number pi theoretically is infinate, as the circumference of any circle is also infinate; having no starting point, and therefore no finishing point, it only has one if you define it (which sounds a lot like Heisenberg Uncertainty Principle) which is exactly what pi exists for. From a purely logical standpoint it's impossible to measure an infinate object, i.e. the circumference of a circle: but it's distance is related through the bounding of an infinate number, in this case, Pi.

There is an awful lot of maths involved here, if you like, i can prepare a mathematical proof that Pi is infinate. But in words, think of it like this:
1) there is no 'smallest unit of measurement'
2) A circle is infinate about it's circumference unless start and end points are declared
3) The start and end points will never meet, because they are related to Pi, and infinate number-the larger the pi, the closer they get.

For more mathematical infinity, look at this ancient theory on how it's impossible to shoot a turtle. (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Zeno's_paradoxes#The_arrow_paradox) This is the type of maths that applies here.

EDIT: Forgot to mention. Later on, mathmaticians will tell you there's 2 infinities-one called "Big infinity" and one called "Little infinity". The difference is that in Little infinity, it's like there being an infinate amount of numbers between 0 and 1. Big infinity says there's an infinate amount of numbers. I think pi is of the first: it's a number of infinate size between infinity and the diameter of the circle.

-Dave

[xmastree]

Another question. How many sides does a circle have?

[Aero]

Another question. How many sides does a circle have?

pfff.. three, everyone knows that.


but seriously, I'm only concerned with the first 42 didgets. Thats all you need to draw a circle around the known universe that differs from perfect by no more than the width of as nucleus. So whats the point of the other X billion?

[blue73]

Anyone seen the movie Pi? Very cool..;)

[Rankenphile]

ok, i need you to open your minds a bit here. im either a frickin genius, or a complete moron. i do know what im talking about though.

i fully realise that pi "isnt" infinity. it only has an infinite number of decimal places. these questions werent really supposed to have serious answers. i was trying to trick you guys, and i was posing a hypothetical question. i mean, you have to admit, pi being the embodiment of infinity is pretty good, because if you look at a circle the right way, it is also infinite.

just take a while and think about it. assuming a number has an infinite supply of decimal places, well then it must travel on forever and be a perfect example of infinity.

im not looking to support my arguments or claim that they are correct. im just looking to cause mass hysteria.

so, im not an idiot. im just inspiring the type of imagination that we have going on in the "food for thought" thread... in a different area. maybe im working my way towards some sort of mathematical breakthrough too, but lets take it one step at a time.

so now that ive kind of cleared things up, go back and have a good look at my questions again. just make the assumtion that pi is now equal to infinity... and ill find some way to convince people of it at a later time. im particularly proud of the circle bit though, and the segment and atom ideas.

anyways... YA, stop being so serious and lets just do a "what if" thing here. maybe through this you'll even get some insight as to how i come up with things like the cocain whales and such... aside from having too much spare time. by the way, the prize hasnt been won yet, because you guys have to start thinking like i do first.


K, first off, nobody said you were an idiot, and I hope that my original posts didn't come off as treating you as if you were. It is an interesting thought exercise, but your initial assumption that pi was equal to infinity was what threw the rest of the argument off. Please do not take my debating these dieas as personal attacks, because they most certainly are not - they are simply my takes on this discussion, my personal understandings of how these things work, and my part of this discussion which, hopefully, will expand the debate into different areas.

Now, the idea that there are an infinite number of atoms in a circle is also flawed, because atoms are of a known size. Depending on the particular type of atom, be it hydrogen, lead, iron, whatever, the size may change, but they are of a known size and weight at this point in human understanding of the physical world.

Dave's argument that there is no smallest unit of measure is one I've always had a problem with. Of course there isn't. Units of measure are a human construct. There is no hard proof in nature that an inch, or a meter, or a mile, are inarguable truths. But they are something that we, as a human society, have come to agree upon. An inch is exactly this long. A meter is exactly this long. And so on and so forth.

At least the way I've always understood it, pi is not infinity. It is an excellent example of infinity, but that does not make it infinite itself. One could argue that I am an example of humanity, but that does not make me humanity. (then again, I've seen it argued that I am an example of many things - a baboon, an asshole, etc. etc. That said, I may be an example of an asshole, but that does not make me all of the assholes.)

And yes, a circle, viewed the right way, is infinite. It is without end. But the circumferance of a circle is not infinite if the radius is known, because the circumferance of a circle is defined as the distance around measured from a point on the circle. And the moment you break the circle at a point to stretch it into a line it ceases to become infinite, due to the very nature of the fact that you have broken the loop.

I'm sorry that I'm not making the assumption you assert that pi is equal to infinity. I'll leave that to others. The problem is that this issue has been argued many, many times in the past, and we're dealing with known quantities. Pi, by being pi, has been defined as not being infinite. It is very much a finite number. I can define it for you, right now.

Pi=circumferance/diameter.

I know where you're going with the initial argument, and it is fun to argue these sorts of things. But you asked for an answer to a set of pretty specific questions, and I gave you exactly what those answers were. To jump out and say, "Well, I didn't mean it that way. Just assume that this first thing is wrong, and then everything else gets real wierd, so therefore you are wrong" doesn't make the argument of initial merit.

I just think you're too cheap to buy me some grapes. :p



Oh, one last thing - ModFather's argument about time being a measurement of movement. From my understanding, this is darn close, but not exactly right. My understanding was always that time is a measure of change, of which movement is an excellent example, but not the definition. Many things can change without moving. But the idea that time is relative and is entirely a construct of the observer is one discussion that I've always been fascinated by.

Consider the fact that many animals live on vastly different timelines than humans do - birds view and react to things much quicker than humans, and flies certianly react faster than we do. In fact, the human timeframe is adjustable as well - a surge of adrenaline will actually slow time, making you react faster to it. Well, it slows your perception of time, but given that time is defined by the observer, then it really does slow time.

Consider another argument - most mammals live nearly the same number of heartbeats in their livetime, within a certain acceptable range, provided they are not killed by an outside force such as, say, a pickup truck speeding down the highway. I'm not sure how accurate this argument is, it is one that I heard many, many moons ago, but it is an interesting one to think about.

[DaveW]

That said, I may be an example of an asshole, but that does not make me all of the assholes.

Unless you're king of the assholes. In that case, you speak for all assholes. We (the asshole people) are not amused. That sort of thing ;)

Ok, there's various points in Rankenphiles post that i wanted to quote, but instead, i'll just re-iterate what i was getting at earlier:

When you shoot a Tortoise with an arrow, there are 2 fields of thought.
1) The arrow moves at a constant speed, covers a certain area of ground every second, and eventually hits the tortoise.
2) The arrow, one launced, will eventually cover half it's distance. Then, it only has half left. Then it will half this. It will constantly and infinately half it's distance, and as there is no 'smallest measure of distance' (i.e. you can, theoretically, always half in size all the way down to Atomic Level) the arrow will never hit the turtle, and this, the turtle is invincible, and only killable by physics students and their ilk.

Again, there's 2 ways to look at the circumference of a circle. This is a sort of Heisenberg Uncertainty Theory: The circle can be infinate and unmeasurable, or it can be a finite and measurable-and thus not a circle, as it will have an implied beginning and end.

If the circumference is infinate, then pi fails to exist. If it is bound, then the closer the two start and end points are (they cannot occupy the same space at the same time-even mathematically speaking) then the more accurate your measure of pi becomes. Therefore, pi is a sub-infinity that only exists when you pretend bigger infinities don't exist. In itself it is endless.

Rankenphile, I used to wonder if a dog could see through glass, and if there were animals for which our walls, say, were transparent. The only way to find out is download our conscious thoughts into their brains.

-Dave

[Rankenphile]

Dammit, Dave, I've got work to do, and not time to argue this stuff. But you bring up some great points. What choice do I have?

Okay, first off, the tortoise adn the arrow thing? The second theory is, in my opinion, philisophical bullocks. Yes, theoretically, it would never hit, because if the distance beween the two bodies is being constantly halved then it never reaches zero.

That's all well and good in theory, but in practice we know it doesn't work like that, especially not with large physical bodies. I know for a fact that if I shoot an arrow at a tortoise it will eventually hit it. I've tested this theory many, many times in my life, and every time it has proven true. Of course, not with an arrow and a tortoise, but I've thrown rocks at things and they eventually hit something, every single time.

I think you and I are defining circles differently. You are, from what I can tell, defining a circle as an infinite loop. I am defining a circle as all points on a single plane an equal distance from a single point, known as the center. When measuring the circumferance of a circle, the start and end point are indeed the same point. A point is a one-dimensional space with neither mass, size nor volume. Therefore it can indeed exist in the same point as itself.

The circumferance of a circle can be infinite and still allow pi to exist. It jsut makes for some messy theory. The circumferance (infinite, represented here as i1) would be infinite if the radius is infinite (i2), thus making the equation i1=2pi(i2). It's ugly, but infinity times 2 is infinity, and 2 times infinity times pi is still infinity. It is not a set number, but an abstract. You cannot quantify it as you can a real number.

I guess I'm just a member of the first field of thought.

Oh, and your idea about transparent walls and such is indeed refutable. We know how vision works - it is the brain's interpretation of received reflected light through specially adapted nerve endings. We know how light behaves in relationship to many, many materials, including glass and everything we build our walls out of. We know how eyes work in most creatures, including dogs. We also know that they do not work much different than our own, so therefore they can see through glass and not through concrete.

How is this for food of thought, though: vision is interpreted through our own brains. How do we know that the color we see as red looks red to everyone else? How do we know that their brains do not interpret red (or, to get more precise, all the light that has the same wavelength as light reflected off of what we see as a red surface) as, say, green, so that if we were to look through their eyes, to see what they see, we would see a stop sign as green, and a field of grass in a rich crimson hue?

[Rankenphile]

As a side note, please, nobody here take any of my remarks as personal attacks. They are not, and I am enjoying this discussion. I am simply debating my own personal opinion and viewpoint and understanding as part of an open dialog, and want others to do the same. If you want to argue that I'm wrong about something, by all means do so.

[DaveW]

Dammit, Dave, I've got work to do, and not time to argue this stuff. But you bring up some great points. What choice do I have?

Indeed: do we ever do anything of our own free will, or are we guided by social boundaries in everything we do? Is there ever an action taken that is not influenced externally, and if not, can we truly possess freedom to make our own choices?


I think you and I are defining circles differently.

That's what i mean by bringing in Heisenberg: the circle is both infinate and finite. The photon is both a wave and a particle. But you can't have both at the same time.


As a side note, please, nobody here take any of my remarks as personal attacks.

I didn't mean anything by my asshole statement-i hope that didn't promp your statement.

You're such a productive employee! You must be your boss's fave. Don't worry, i'm addicted too. I should be studying right now.

-Dave

PS: Jees. Congrats on 1000+ Posts.

[Rankenphile]

Oh, no, I didn't take the asshole statement that way. It was a pre-emptive "chill out everyone, this is just fun talk" statement.

Oh, I actually am a productive employee, I just have some downtime that I spend on the boards and such.

1000 posts? Yikes. Okay, maybe not as productive an employee as I could be. lol

[xmastree]

pfff.. three, everyone knows that.bzzzt. Wrong.

[Cevinzol]

Doesnt this mean that pi itself is the embodiment of infinity?
I really hate bad science. Rank has already corrected this. PI is an irrational number just like the square root of 2 (which Pythagoris couldn't come to grips with and killed people who brought it up in his pressense)

just make the assumtion that pi is now equal to infinity
This is bad logic. (just as bad as bad science). [lets assume black=white and get killed at the next zebra crossing]

im either a frickin genius, or a complete moron
I'll take door #2 Monty

circle is both infinate and finite
A circle is defined as a set of points (infinitly small) all equidistant from a common center point.

2) The arrow, one launced, will eventually cover half it's distance. Then, it only has half left. Then it will half this. It will constantly and infinately half it's distance, and as there is no 'smallest measure of distance' (i.e. you can, theoretically, always half in size all the way down to Atomic Level) the arrow will never hit the turtle, and this, the turtle is invincible, and only killable by physics students and their ilk.
You forgot that the time interval is halved each time. your example is a basic teaching of 1st semester calculus. The arrow reaches the tortise.

This is a sort of Heisenberg Uncertainty Theory
The Heisenberg Uncertainty Principle (not theory) applies to the quantum subatomic level. many things are different at this level. When people see the word 'uncertainty' they immedeatly draw the wrong conclusion.

BTW has anyone seen Schrödinger's cat lateley? last I knew it was hiding in a box.

How do we know that the color we see as red looks red to everyone else?Intersting as both a biophysics question and as a Philosophy question.
Biophysics:
By studying the photochemical reactions associated with electron energy states (from quantum mechanics) we can determine exact frequencies and hence the color.

Philosophy: Boiled all down the question becomes "what is truth?" "How do we know what we know?"
The answer is: We know, what we know, such that it could only be known that way and by no other means.

[Slug Toy]

Time is not the 4th dimension...

Time is to the 4th dimension as a ruler is to the 2nd and 3rd dimensions, a measuring tool.

The 4th dimension is motion. Time is the tool by which we measure motion. All dimensions exist outside of the ability of the human mind to concieve of them, Time however does not exist without a thinking mind to conceptualize it. Furthermore time, no matter how you percieve it, is always applied to a form of motion.

On the smaller scale, time is the motion of the hands on a clock around a dial. That motion is used to measure minutes, hours and seconds which measure days, weeks, months, years, decades, centuries, millenia and so on. But each and every one of those segments of time are in fact motions.

Moving up in scale, those motions are the movement of the earth, around its axis, giving us the days, around the sun, giving us years.

The movement of the solar system around the galaxy is also given a time measurment (every 240 million years) and so on and so forth. It all relates to motion.

Hence my theory that time isn't a dimension at all but simply the ruler to motion.

this wins my patented "Mind In Motion" award. keep going with this, you'll win the nobel prize. i guarantee it.


But the number pi theoretically is infinate, as the circumference of any circle is also infinate; having no starting point, and therefore no finishing point, it only has one if you define it (which sounds a lot like Heisenberg Uncertainty Principle) which is exactly what pi exists for. From a purely logical standpoint it's impossible to measure an infinate object, i.e. the circumference of a circle: but it's distance is related through the bounding of an infinate number, in this case, Pi.

There is an awful lot of maths involved here, if you like, i can prepare a mathematical proof that Pi is infinate. But in words, think of it like this:
1) there is no 'smallest unit of measurement'
2) A circle is infinate about it's circumference unless start and end points are declared
3) The start and end points will never meet, because they are related to Pi, and infinate number-the larger the pi, the closer they get.

For more mathematical infinity, look at this ancient theory on how it's impossible to shoot a turtle. This is the type of maths that applies here.

EDIT: Forgot to mention. Later on, mathmaticians will tell you there's 2 infinities-one called "Big infinity" and one called "Little infinity". The difference is that in Little infinity, it's like there being an infinate amount of numbers between 0 and 1. Big infinity says there's an infinate amount of numbers. I think pi is of the first: it's a number of infinate size between infinity and the diameter of the circle.

this wins the "OMG, He's Thinking Like Me" award.


but seriously, I'm only concerned with the first 42 didgets. Thats all you need to draw a circle around the known universe that differs from perfect by no more than the width of as nucleus. So whats the point of the other X billion?

this wins the Precision Award. although, to answer that question, we need all the decimal places we can get so that my arguments have some sort of abstract support.


I just think you're too cheap to buy me some grapes.

this wins the Jew Award. the grapes are in the mail, just wait 6-8 weeks.


Quote:
Doesnt this mean that pi itself is the embodiment of infinity?

I really hate bad science. Rank has already corrected this. PI is an irrational number just like the square root of 2 (which Pythagoris couldn't come to grips with and killed people who brought it up in his pressense)

Quote:
just make the assumtion that pi is now equal to infinity

This is bad logic. (just as bad as bad science). [lets assume black=white and get killed at the next zebra crossing]

Quote:
im either a frickin genius, or a complete moron

I'll take door #2 Monty

this whole series of statements wins a one way trip to the center of the earth. this is impossible though seeming as the earth is one step worse than a circle... its a SPHERE. its a three dimensional singularity!

and so far the best prize goes to Pythagorus for being a murderer.

i also just had an epiphany. im going to assume (yes here we go again) that everyone can just kind of come to terms with pi being infinite. so then lets go back the my theoretical situation where we have a circle of diameter 1, and the circumference is infinite... all good so far. the diameter of the circle is then circumference/pi... meaning it is now infinity/infinity. so now we have a diameter that isnt 1, it is now 0, its non-existent. this means that we have an infinite circumference that has no area inside it, no diameter, no radius... no ulna... haha, i had to throw in that cheap physiology joke.

so now what just happened there? thats a scary bit of "logic".

i think just for the heck of it ill say that im still not an idiot. its not like im taking offense the anything when nobody likes the idea of pi being equal to infinity... i just dont want anyone to forget that i know what im talking about, and im just being creative.

as for prizes, you can still bump off pythagorus. i think whats in order is a hypothesis so outlandish that even i cant find any sort of logic in it. whoever can come up with it will have the honour of recieving the stamp of approval from me.

now hurry, before september comes around and all the bookstores fill up.

[Rankenphile]

Slug Toy, I'm really trying here. I'm even willing to overlook the whole "Jew" comment, although that screams of willful ignorance. Luckily the rest of your post screams it just as loud, so I won't have to bring up the fact that using racial and ethnic slurs is an unforgiveable offense.

Just because you want pi to equal infinity does not make it so. Just because you want to pretend that you are reaching some deep inarguable truth does not make it so. I've been rather good natured in my debate with you about this, but you are continuing to be rather mean-spirited about the entire thing while ignoring the logic of the arguments presented to you, thereby making what has the potential to be a very interesting and thought-provoking thread an exercise in futility and willful ignorance.

The Earth is not a sphere. It is rather wider than it is tall, if you were to sit it on a very large desk, resting it gently on the South Pole. Not only that, but a sphere is defined as all points in three-dimensional space exactly equidistant from a single point, which we all call the center. Last time I looked, the surface of the Earth was rather bumpy and lumpy, and tended to shift a bit.

As far as your newest epiphany goes, it still doesn't work, no matter how many times you want pi to reach infinity. Even if it did, your math you present proves you wrong. If a circle has a daimeter of one, the circumferance would be one times pi. If, if, pi equalled infinity, that would make the diameter infinity, but it isn't. It is one. A very, very finite number. Then you go on to argue that the diameter of a circle is the circumferance/pi, which in your argument would be infinity/infinity. That wouldn't make it zero, that would make it one. Anything divided by itself is one. If you have a rope that is seven inches long, and you cut it in seven pieces, dividing it seven times, each piece would be exactly one inch long.

Your scary bit of "logic" is certainly scary, but it isn't logical in the least.

I wasn't serious when I said I thought you were too cheap to buy me grapes. I could care less about the grapes, I was trying to make a bit of a joke. I guess it went over your head along with the rest of the math you were throwing out.


And that "Jew" comment? I lied when I said I would ignore it. Make another ethnic slur like that and you can find somewhere else to have these discussions. Now play nice. We're just trying to have a little bit of fun here.

[Slug Toy]

ok, this has really turned into a misunderstanding. im not trying to make any insulting comments at all. im not taking offense, and im not trying to be offensive.

the jew thing... well you said im too cheap.... jews are notoriously cheap... it fits, for me at least. it probably is willful ignorance... but what CAN you say these days and not have someone take offense? i say pi equals infinity and im met with critiscism.

i think when you say i am being mean-spirited, you arent reading what ive said in the proper context. imagine if you will.... a drunk person arguing a court case. it may not make sense, it may be innapropriate, but by god, its an argument for the sake of arguing. theres no sarcasm in what i say, there are some very obscure references, but obviously i watch different tv shows than most people.

now, im moving on to something similar here. ive gone to university for a while, and its a very academic atmosphere. i was met with a lot of critiscism there too, and im really starting to get frustrated when my creativity is perceived as rebellion/sass/communism/racism/whatever. i am an inherently insane and obscure person to deal with... especially when i am SUPPOSED to exercise my mind. granted, most of the time im quite reasonable. when i get in the "zone" though, all reason and regard disappears. im in the zone right now, so what i say is what i feel at the moment. ill take a hint though.... maybe ill let my writing sit for a while, and check it again before i post, so as not to overlook possible... bad... things.

now back to what was said. im quite serious about all of it. i like the idea that dimensions are based on motion instead of time/space/matter/energy and whatnot. i personally think that this kind of mentality will open people up to wonderful insights and discoveries... sooner or later. i like the idea that only dave is kind of agreeing with me right now (dave, show me that math to prove pi is infinite, and ill fax you a cookie)... AND i like the idea that most people are stuck on the idea that pi simply cant equal infinity. this poses me with intellectual challenges where i need to both teach and convince at the same time. i shall have to convince a little more from the looks of it. heck, i even like the idea that you, rankenphile, believe me to be a dick (yes, i can sense it in your writing, its quite obvious, aside from the fact that the words are actually slapping me at this very moment) because i get a little more adversity happening here. aw... actually i know you're joking... i still love you, drive to my place so i can hug you and make things good again. now lets turn this adversity into perversity... i mean triumph... or something.

the awards still stand as i placed them. note too that ive taken hints from the quotes and incorporated them into the award names... nifty? maybe? no? ok. i just didnt do that for cevinzol's because well... i felt like condemning something to live in the center of the planet... and pythagorus really stole the spotlight there.

now, lets all get back to the argument at hand eh? im still going to believe that pi equals infinity, and you can go on saying im wrong. that wont stop me though. the only way ill stop talking is if i screw myself over... i probably already have, but i havent realised it yet. i just have to keep finding things to prove based on my ideas, and i wont stop now. as for the prize for whoever bumps off pythagorus, well it will be something digital and quite splendid, quite priceless. and no, it wont be a random word generator, although one might be used in the making of this prize.

[Slug Toy]

by the way... that last line where i mentioned september and bookstores filling up... watch Proof and you'll understand. its just some more crazy math talk.

[Cevinzol]

Slug,
Pi never was nor ever will be infinite.
Its stuck between the integers 3 & 4 and they are about as far from infinite as you can get.
Pi is a transcendental number (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Transcendental_number).
Transcendental numbers are a subset of irrational numbers (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Irrational_number).

Man put the bleer down, shut yer Pi-hole and go to bed.

[Rankenphile]

Slug,

Thanks for clearing a few things up. I didn't want to go on the tirade that I did, but you sort of forced my hand. I'm going to stay very much behind my comment that saying Jews are notoriously cheap is an ethnic slander, and has no place in a conversation like this - it is a stereotype, and it is a measure of willful ignorance on your part. You're smarter than that, I've seen you prove it many times over on these boards.

The fact is that, dispite the fact that you insist on this silly hypothesis of yours based on bad science, I do still respect you for your work. I know what you're trying to do - open a discussion about how trippy things would be if pi were infinite. All I'm doing is being the dude who keeps interjecting logic into illogical arguments - I'm sort of playing the foil. I'm starting to feel like Spock a little bit here to your Kirk - while you're dashing off madly through the universe, chomping at the bit to get at the next blue alien chick, I'm scratching my head and saying, "Highly illogical, Captain."

*shrug*

Regardless, at this point I've said my piece, pointed out the errors in your logic, and I'm willing to let you go dashing about again if you so choose. Just play nice. No more Jew comments. And double-check your math. I'm willing to let you pretend that pi is infinity, but saying infinity divided by itself is zero? You should have known better than that.

And as for driving up to your place so we can hug and make up... well, maybe not, but I will be in Victoria this weekend. Practically a stone's throw away.

[DaveW]

I had points to make, but seeing the debacle that this thread has become, i've decided to ignore it. I've seen better science and philosophy from drunk people.


You forgot that the time interval is halved each time. your example is a basic teaching of 1st semester calculus. The arrow reaches the tortise.

Einstein didn't think so. His whole theory of relativity is based on it.

And i'm out of here!

-Dave

[Slug Toy]

no dave! i wanted to see the math! damn, now i have to find it myself, or make it up. i had a ginger snap running through the fax machine, ready to send it off too... shame, now im stuck with a bunch of crumbs.


Pi never was nor ever will be infinite.

yet..... you forget that i have the power to retroactively redefine whatever i see fit. as soon as i figure out how to properly prove it, im going back in time and slapping someone.


Man put the bleer down, shut yer Pi-hole and go to bed.

i have to assume you mean that reference to the court case. you sure dont want to see me when im drunk. in fact, i dont drink at all as of now because i found out my family has a strong tendency towards alcoholism.


I will be in Victoria this weekend

ew, victoria is where the hippies hang out, as well as west vancouver. too artsy fartsy for me. be careful over there though, you never know when you might get kidnapped by a wandering group of spiritualists. its happened before, and the victims are never the same after that.


but saying infinity divided by itself is zero? You should have known better than that.


yes i should have known better than that. i was sitting in class today, drawing out my ideas and i realised that it would only equal 1. i dont know where i got zero from. as flawed as this whole idea might be, that HAS to be the worst bit of work ive done for quite a while... except for that test where i got 3%.

that brings me to another bit of insanity. lets fall back to the circle again. so now we've clarified that it has an infinite circumferance (i realised i was spelling wrong too) and a diamter of 1. to add to that, lets look at deriving the radius. the radius would be circumferance/(2 times pi), which is infinity/(2 times infinity), which is infinity/infinity when simplified. what does this get? we get a radius of 1. this is odd because radius now equals diameter, but diameter is supposed to be 2 times the radius.

further to that, lets take an angle within the circle where we have two radii to form... lets say 30 degrees. the chord (a straight line joining the points where the radii meet the circumferance) would be infinite as well since it is related to a section of an already existing infinity. so now this means that the angle between the two radii is no longer 30 degrees. it is directly proportional to the chord, and therefor is infinite as well.

well, needless to say, we now have a circle where radius=diameter=1, circumferance=infinity, and any angle within the circle or any segment on the circumferance you choose is equal to infinity. this is weird. now, even though an angle may obviously be a right angle, it actually isnt.

to mess it up even more, lets say we have 2 radii 180 degrees apart, each with the determined length of 1. this effectively gives us a line with the total length being 2, but the chord formed would still be infinite. so now we have two lines of equal "length" on top of each other, where one has a length of 2 and the other is infinite!

there we have it. i have successfully destroyed trigonometry, and made even more utter nonsense out of everyone's reality.

[MitaPi]

Anyone seen the movie Pi? Very cool..;)


I saw it! I saw it! That is one of my favorite movies! ^_^ Mostly just because its in black and white tho :P OKay.. WAY OFF TOPIC! But has anyone seen Two Arabian Knights? I believe it was a... 1928 Film?

Oh and please dont let me get in the way of this discussion... it was kind of rude of me and I am sorry. But please.. by all means! Ignore the stupid, rude, fat kid. lol ^_^ (well not fat.. 180 isnt fat :P)

EDIT: you know whats really funny.. I just remembered what the Pi in MitaPi stands for.. lol

AND ON A SIDE NOTE!! I JUST SAW A F"ING MOUSE RUN ACROSS MY ROOMS FLOOR!!!! OMGosh!!!!

[.jrauck]

Wouldn't pi just be a very defined number?

[DaveW]

Please don't necromance this thread, of all threads, not this one!

-Dave

[Airbozo]

Just read this thread for the first time. Brings back memories of the many years of math, calculus, geometry etc. Also triggers some of the philosophy and religous studies classes memories. It was quite contradictory to have to write a paper in one class, describing infinity and it's implications on math/science and another paper in yet another class describing infinity's implications on society and religion.

Jeez, it's 10:15 in the morning and my head hurts already! Thanks guys...