Need Help Dissecting Brownie Mix

[d_stilgar]

So, I've been trying to make good homemade brownies, but every recipe I've tried (which is a lot) turns out really crappy. What I do like is the mixes you buy at the store. They taste awesome and come out great every time. So I figured, I would just look at the nutrition information combined with the ingredient list and . . . mathematically derive the recipe.

This may sound impossible but really isn't. Still, I seem to have gotten something wrong.

Here's what I've got. There are four main ingredients, sugar, enriched bleached flour, cocoa, and partially hydrogenated soybean oil (vegetable shortening).

The other ingredients make up less than 2% of the mix: corn starch, salt, natural and artificial flavor (vanilla I assume), baking soda.

From here, I've gone on to dissect nutrition information. The information on the box is for the mix only, not the stuff you add to it, which is good and exactly what I want. There are three main factors to help me determine the makeup of the mix, Calories, Fat, and Carbs.

Now, as you know in linear equations, for each unknown, you need to have one equation, so I went real deep and got the iron content so I could have a 4th equation.

Here's what I got, but it's coming out wrong. The flour, which should be the 2nd largest amount is coming out as a negative.

All amounts are per tsp, so 4.2s in the first equation means 4.2 carbs per tsp of sugar.

s:sugar f:flour c:cocoa x:shortening
4.2s + 2f + c = 460 (this is the total carbs for the box)
16.3s + 9.5f +4c + 53x = 2200 (total calories)
0.25c + 4x = 50 (grams of fat)
0.21f + 0.67c = 0.72 (mg of iron)

Now if you solve these equations it doesn't come out right, which means I'm doing something wrong. But here's what I'm getting. This would be total tsp of each ingredient for the box.
c = 29
f = -89
s = 145
x = 10.7

I know this might be a bit of trouble, but does someone what to help me figure out what I'm doing wrong?

Here's a link to the nutrition information on the box: http://www.wegmans.com/webapp/wcs/stores/servlet/ProductDisplay?productId=364832&storeId=10052&langId=-1

From there I did lots of intermediary looking up calories per (unit) and converting that to tsp. I feel like maybe that's where I got it wrong . . .
In any case, I feel like other than that negative sign (which I've checked over and over) it's looking pretty alright. Sugar should be the most, then flour, then cocoa, then shortening.

Hopefully this will spark someone else's curiosity and you'll want to go through all this detective work too to find the answer.

[xr4man]

just absolute value that flour and call it a day!!!! lol

[AmEv]

Do they use any low/high-value stuff? Like low-fat ingredients?

[farlo]

not mathematical or anything, but if you prefer chewy brownies you may want to substitute some sugar with brown sugar. it'll also add a nice molasses flavor.

[Airbozo]

When you say your brownies turn out crappy, what does that mean?

Altering the ratio of ingredients changes the makeup of the end product. Too much of one ingredient makes the brownies chewy, another alteration makes them more cake like.

Baking is like chemistry. The correct ratio of ingredients are critical for the right end product.

FYI: trying to replicate the store bought brownies from the ingredient list is pretty much impossible. That is why companies that want to copy those recipes use labs to break down the ingredients not based on the label, rather they reverse engineer based on the mix itself using spectrum analyzers.

I have several recipes I use depending on what type of brownie I want to make. Even adding nuts changes the texture due to the oils present in most nuts. I normally don't get online on the weekends much but send me a PM and if I see it this weekend I will post my 2 favorite recipes.

[Drum Thumper]

You know, they make these things call cookbooks.

You also may be able to find some clone recipes via the almighty Google.

That said, I do appreciate what you're doing. I do the same with quality craftbeer.

[Airbozo]

You know, they make these things call cookbooks.

You also may be able to find some clone recipes via the almighty Google.

That said, I do appreciate what you're doing. I do the same with quality craftbeer.

You know they have recipes right?


LOL!

I do the same thing as well. My neighbor (and good friend) is a Zymurgist and he knows the recipes for many beers. One year I wanted to make a 'Brown Ale" and he just wrote some numbers on a paper and said it would taste just like X beer. Sure enough it did.

[d_stilgar]

just absolute value that flour and call it a day!!!! lol

I've thought about it . . . but I know it isn't right. Still, I might try it to show a comparison. You have to realize that the answers are a total in tsp. So, having a negative means that not only is that off (obviously) but that the others are off as well since the total volume of ingredients needs to be a certain amount, which would be 89 tsp more than the box recipe if just did an absolute value on the flour.

I did, however, remove the iron to try and go with a weight equation. The results were similar to what I posted above, which is actually a good thing, because it means that I'm not that far off . . . other than making a major mistake


Do they use any low/high-value stuff? Like low-fat ingredients?
Essentially the only high fat item is the vegetable shortening. Still, there's


When you say your brownies turn out crappy, what does that mean?
I just mean that I've tried lots of recipes. Some come out kinda like actual fudge. Others are too cake-y. All of them taste fine enough, but I'm pretty sure use more cocoa than the box versions and I can tell. I've had several that use butter instead of oil and shortening like the box. That's going to make a big difference.



Altering the ratio of ingredients changes the makeup of the end product. Too much of one ingredient makes the brownies chewy, another alteration makes them more cake like.

Baking is like chemistry. The correct ratio of ingredients are critical for the right end product.
I agree totally, which is why I'm doing this.



FYI: trying to replicate the store bought brownies from the ingredient list is pretty much impossible. That is why companies that want to copy those recipes use labs to break down the ingredients not based on the label, rather they reverse engineer based on the mix itself using spectrum analyzers.


This is where I'm going to disagree. In most cases, I agree, you can't just derive a recipe from an ingredient list. However, in this case it's pretty simple math. There are four ingredients, with unknown quantities, which make up the majority of the recipe. The other ingredients make up less than 2tsp of the total recipe. I know that 2% is a lot in chemistry, but it does mean that some simple algebra can get me 98% of the way there and the rest I can do some trial and error.

Like I explained above, for every unknown, you just need a linear formula. So in the case of this mix you just need four equations. I can have an equation for calories, fat, and carbohydrates which I know will be really accurate, because most of the ingredients have either a high amount of those, or zero, which makes the math pretty easy. As for the fourth equation, I went with iron because it was in two of the ingredients, but I could easily go with something else like weight, volume, etc.

I'll keep working on this and eventually find my error and I'll show you. The math won't lie (once I find my error). I'll have a recipe that duplicates the box.


You know, they make these things call cookbooks.
You also may be able to find some clone recipes via the almighty Google.

I tried google and recipe books. I'm just not a fan of what I've found. I've been making them and they just aren't that good.

Anyway, I'll go over all of this again tonight and figure out where I messed up. Then I'll try what I find and show the results. I was just hoping someone here was good at math and would show me where I screwed up there.

[Airbozo]

Couple of FYI's:

The corn starch is only to prevent the mixture from clumping and solidifying during shipment and storage. (at least that is what I remember from class)
The ratio of baking soda to liquid is very important.
Shortening vs butter will change the end product.
The "type" of flour will also change the end product (cake flour vs all purpose).
One of the "artificial flavorings" may be malt dextrose. Not sure how that would affect the mix.


There are more gotcha's and it dawned on my while I was typing this up that one of the cookbooks I used in culinary school has a troubleshooting section and one of the pages is on brownies... I will find it and post it up. It may help. This is also the same cookbook where recipes are listed with ratio's and weights not volume measurements.

I think you are on the right track though. What brand mix are you trying to break down?

[d_stilgar]

It's a Pillsbury Chocolate Fudge.

[Kayin]

I know that oil is very important, if you had a mix that had both oil and butter I think the taste would be excellent, as well as rather chewy.

Normally I can eat something and then make it (like McGriddles) but I can't with anything chocolate, as I'm allergic to it. Bad thing when it comes to brownies, I still like them (though don't care for actual chocolate. Can't stand the taste.)

[Airbozo]

It's a Pillsbury Chocolate Fudge.

MMMM that is a good one... (I sound like a brownie junkie...)

[d_stilgar]

Alright men! I did it.

I just started over. I knew that the basic info was right and that I had messed up the formulas somehow, so starting over was the best way to go.

Remember, I was supposed to end up with this being the order of the most to least: Sugar, flour, cocoa, shortening, (other crap)

I started with these givens:

Calories: 2200
Fat: 50g
Carbs: 460g
Volume: 4 cups

And these unknowns:

Sugar (s)
Flour (f)
Cocoa (c)
Shortening (x)

So, I looked up the nutrition information for each of these per tbsp and made these formulas, which should be pretty easy to follow, but feel free to ask questions for clarification.

Calories) 28.4375f+12c+119x+48.375s=2200
Fat) 0.0625f+c+14x=50
Carbs) 5.9375f+3c+12.5s=460
Volume) f+c+x+s=64

And after solving we get this:

f=24.69
s=21.31
c=15.65
x=2.34

Now, the sugar and flour aren't in the same order as the box said. However, I always knew that they would be about equal, so I'm satisfied.

So, tonight, to those ingredients I will add two eggs, 1/4c of water, and 1/2c of oil and some very small amounts of vanilla, salt, baking soda, and corn starch and bake for some time at 350 degrees and I will then take some pictures and post the result. The only really bad thing will be the fact that I will have little way to precisely measure those amounts. Still, I am very hopeful that these will be pretty close to the original. I mean, come on! Math!

[Airbozo]

OK, Finally remembered to get this posted. This is a recipe I have used several times and it creates a nice fudgy brownie. If you want a cake type brownie add the baking powder...

Notice that the measurements are in weight and not volume. Also note the percentage column. This shows that flour is the base ingredient and all other ingredients are based on a percentage of flour. This is how most baker formula's are written since baking is a science.

FYI: I have been known to add small pinches of spice depending on my mood. A very small pinch of chili powder or cayenne pepper will give the brownie a slightly different taste, but not change the texture. YMMV

Also notice the page number. I always thought that was funny.
(sorry for the size)

http://img809.imageshack.us/img809/9940/brownies.jpg

[d_stilgar]

Hey, thanks for that. I'll definitely be trying that one out.

I'll post pictures of the resulting brownies from my math later. They are definitely the closest to box brownies I've had, but it was definitely off. The brownies were a little cakey still, and I'm pretty sure this was due to the flour content being too high.

I added all the ingredients together and just mixed it up, which is definitely the wrong way to do it. For starters, it makes sense to add the flour last. Mostly this is due to the fact that flour and water mixed together will start to make gluten, which will make the brownies more dough-ey, cakey, and bread like, which is what I got. So, what you are supposed to do (which I didn't) is add the water and sugar together, because the sugar in the water will keep the gluten from forming.

Secondly, although I measured the flour correctly (look up the proper way to do it if you are curious, although weighing would still be better), the brownie batter was pretty dry after mixing all the ingredients. It would have been better to mix everything but the flower, then add it slowly until I got the consistency I was looking for. This is also bad because brownies work best if the ingredients aren't over mixed, and this made them way over mixed. There should still be some chunky parts and trapped air in the batter.

Overall (I'll still post pictures but the camera died right after getting some shots), it was the best result I've had. My wife, who is worried about getting fat, made me promise to only work on this once every other week so we don't constantly have brownies in the house. So, you guys should help by trying out your own close variations to the recipe derived mathematically. Try mixing the wet ingredients then the dry and adding the flour last until the batter is about right (you can buy a box and compare if you like) and then report back how much flour it was.

Then we can compare that to Airbozo's book above and see what we're all getting.

Thanks for the fun guys!

[Airbozo]

BTW: The baking soda is not needed and will also help cause cakeiness...(love making up words) Over mixing the eggs will also cause the same result. Basically for chewy brownies you don't want much leavening.

The proper mixing technique is the "Sponge Method" and it will affect the end product.

Damn, it seems like some of the stuff I learned in Culinary School actually stuck in my head...

LOL!

[killergamer]

Now I want to go get some brownie mix! I'm craving brownies..GRR. To bad I have a ton of oven cleaner sprayed in mine. Trying to clean it =P Good job on figuring it out. Wish I was able to help you!