Shocking Hardware

[AKA_RA]

Weve been talking about this concept over in another thread, but i decided to make it into its own thread. The basic idea started brewing in my head when d_stilgar posted this link.

http://www.g4tv.com/screensavers/features/44543/Dark_Tip_Build_an_Xshok_Controller.html

i thought to myself "hey, what a great idea." but then i realized i dont really play xbox that much. and would rather have my mouse shock me or something like that. so me and leprosy were talking on xfire and we were thinking that maybe someone could make a pc version of this. the hardware part would be relitively simple. not too differant from the xbox controller version. its just getting it to respond to games would require some programming, something im horrible at. although im sure i could find someone with knowledge of a game like CS:S that could somehow make a mod that would send a shock to either the mouse, or even better, for those who enjoy realistic gaming, a vest and head band (for head shots of course). for safety reasons, we would have to stick to relitively low voltages, maybe have it adjustable from tingling to irritating. you hear me stilgar, no 500,000 volt version. :p lol
basically all that would be needed for this is a mod for a game like CS:S, a driver for the device, and the device itself. with all the people that come and go around here im sure we could accomplish this. if anyones interested, please either leave a message here or contact me directly, either works for me. the more i think about this idea the more i wanna do it. imagine going to your next lan and having a shock vest round of CS. sure, there would be more profanity than one could comprehend. but it would be one hell of a game, imo.
anyways, thats my idea, am i crazy? or am i onto something here?

[Rankenphile]

yes. you're crazy.



lol.


actually, it's an intriguing idea, but I wouldn't recommend trying to make one yourself. Any time you're dealing with intentionally electorcuting yourself, you better be DAMNED sure you know exactly what you're doing, because you're just asking for trouble if you make a mistake.

It reminds me of a game a friend had - there were four "controllers", which were basically metal handles with a button, that were all attached to a base by a springy wire. You would push a button on the base, and it would light up and play a song. As soon as it stopped, you had to push the button - the last guy to hit his button got shocked. Great party game, but I wouldn't want to try to make one myself.

[AKA_RA]

the website i linked to makes it sound dangerous, but in fact, i wouldnt actually be too dangerous with the proper precautions and a little common sense. i have a specific product in mind that isnt exactly made for taking down a human. its more aimed towards things like flies. much safer than working with a stun gun.

http://www.iwantoneofthose.com/search.do?productCode=BUGZAP

ive played around with one, its got enough voltage to give a nice little jolt if you touch it while its turned on, but i doubt it would be enough to actually hurt someone seriously. im not a expert electrition by any means, but i know enough to keep myself relitively safe. for example, don't grab the ground and hot-lead with opposite hands. thats a sure fire way to wind up dead. anyways, all it would involve is removing the two screens on the product and routing them with low gauge wiring to contacts about an inch or less apart, similar to whats seen on the xbox controller used in the mod. then all you have to do is wire up the "on" switch to a relay similar to the one used in the xbox controller mod, and thats enough for one contact point. another idea would be to use something like one of the electric muscle stimulators, but im betting those have more of a kick than the bug zapper. not to mention theyre rather expensive. Hundreds to thousands of dollars for a nice one as opposed to $10 for an electric fly swatter. im just trying to get a tingle not a workout.

[d_stilgar]

The reason that tasers are non-lethal is that their amps are low. Enough amps across the heart, even at 1V, will kill you. 500,000V just means more ouch. Something along the lines of this (http://www.sillyjokes.co.uk/p-jokes/shocking/shock-ring.html) would probably be able to be modded into a mouse without too much effort and could be powered by USB or molex since it only needs 1.5V. As far as signal goes, there are many products and games that support force feedback controllers. I would try to find a mouse that already has it and then just mod it to shock you instead.

[d_stilgar]

ta-da! A quick google of "force feedback mouse" and I found this (http://www.lanparty.com/articles/touchforceoptical/touchforceoptical.shtml) at the top of the list.

Logitech apparently has two mice that offer this. Search for "iFeel". They are old though, so finding one might be hard.

You can thank me for giving you this mod later. (Just kidding)

[AKA_RA]

ive seen force feedback mice out there, but i highly doubt it reacts when you get shot in counter strike, which is kinda what i was ultimately aiming at. basically i would need a mod that would take into consideration where youve been hit, and from which direction. if youve ever played counter strike im sure youve seen the red that shows up when youve been hit, or seen the mods that show how much damage youve given/taken on what hit boxes(arm/leg/etc). so i dont think the software would be too difficult for someone to amke if they knew the software. me, i know nothing about modding for CS:S

[d_stilgar]

I'm sure that the programmin wouldn't be too hard. You should do a search to see if there is a CS:S mod already that supports force feedback. It's gonna be the simplest way to be able to have it compatible with many games.

[FyR]

you could make it so powerfull that you would dread getting shot so it would make you into some sort of uber cs:s killing machine :P

[Drac998]

yes. you're crazy.



lol.


actually, it's an intriguing idea, but I wouldn't recommend trying to make one yourself. Any time you're dealing with intentionally electorcuting yourself, you better be DAMNED sure you know exactly what you're doing, because you're just asking for trouble if you make a mistake.

It reminds me of a game a friend had - there were four "controllers", which were basically metal handles with a button, that were all attached to a base by a springy wire. You would push a button on the base, and it would light up and play a song. As soon as it stopped, you had to push the button - the last guy to hit his button got shocked. Great party game, but I wouldn't want to try to make one myself.

They sell that at a store called mind games. IT really is a great thing to have for a drinking game, everyone who gets shocked drinks.... more you drink the more you get shocked.

[Rankenphile]

I'm going to reiterate this - if you do not have a solid understanding of electronics, wiring and how they can affect the human body, do not undertake this mod.

[Drew]

Erm..... anyone ever seen the film 'Flatliners'?

I once pee'd on an electric fence :eek: .... and can say from experience, that 'urts... a lot.

If one of you suddenly stops posting, we'll know why....

I really, really do think you're all quite mad.

But if you get it to work... Whoah! What a cool toy!

Thats my disclaimer out of the way, carry on lads.

Drew

[AKA_RA]

Wait...you're saying you peed on an electrical fence? I'm really hoping it was an accident and not an attempt to copy a very drunk Chris Raab, lol.

[Slug Toy]

as it would happen, my brother is obsessed with tasers. hes got a 630 volt prototype that was modified from a 120 volt circuit with a voltage doubler or two.

if i ask him nicely, i might be able to get an electronics schematic for you, maybe for a 60 volt version. ive been shocked by both the 120 and 630 volt versions, and let me tell you, 630 is a no no, you feel it everywhere.

give me a day, and ill see what i can dig up. and dont worry, if you can make simple electronic devices, you should be reasonably safe unless you bugger it up.

[crenn]

Linking it upto your computer will be a small challenge.... but still fairly easy. All you need to do is have some knowledge in making devices that can communicate with either the Serial or Parallel ports of your computer. USB is slightly harder as you have to create drivers for it, but it's still possible. Then you have to get the game to communicate with the vest/headband and tell it where you need to get shocked.
Stick to very low voltages.... as about 40mA can kill you..... also, keep the electrodes fairly close together, sure, it may not 'tingle' as much... but it will be safer.

Note, I have tried holding 2 leads from a 6v battery... it gave me a headache.. but I'm still alive and kicking. (I got bored and want to work out the resistance of the human body using Ohm's Law!)

[Cevinzol]

Again remember, you should not try to do this. It can be very harmful and potentially deadly. Only experienced, trained professionals should even think about it. Be smart. Don't try this at home.

If you do this I hope to see you listed here...
http://www.darwinawards.com/

[Slug Toy]

everybody's blowing this way out of proportion in my opinion. we're talking about a small electric stimulus here. not some sort of high voltage, high amperage device that sends a current right across your heart all the time. 120 volts from the outlet on your hand is going to hurt, but its only deadly if you run it right across your chest... and even then, you can stop that from happening. i know this from many experiences. youd probably have a hard time killing yourself that way.

besides, the mere fact that AKA_RA wants to build this implies that he has electronics skills, and is hopefully aware of what hes doing. if theres a large enough current coming through that it will kill you, there are ways of dealing with it.

i started screwing with electricity when i had no idea what i was doing. im talking about electricity direct from an outlet, and jacobs ladders, and big power magnets. i shocked myself a lot, but im not dead. i was even more of an idiot back then (its hard to believe that i HAVENT gotten dumber with time) and if an idiot can get away with that sort of thing, im sure anyone can.

and just one other thing:

Note, I have tried holding 2 leads from a 6v battery
so have i, it doesnt really work that way. you must have either had salt water on your hands, or you were imagining it. the only thing a DC current will do (if you manage to actually get the current to pass through you) is make a hot sensation depending on what the voltage is. 6 volts wont do that though.... it doesnt do anything on bare skin... it DOES give a sour taste if you lick the leads and its pretty fun to see who can do it the longest (it starts to feel liek a pinching after a few seconds).

[crenn]

Nope, there was a current passing through, only a few nano amps. And it was a hot day, so my hands were slightly sweaty.

[AKA_RA]

lol, Slug Toy, thats exactly how i would test to see if a 9v battery is any good or not. sticking to my tounge for a short time will let me know right away if its got any kick left in it. but then again, i havent really done that since i was a kid. ive thought about making the device using just a parrallel port, but since its so out dated i figured whenm i uprade itll make the damn thing useless. and yeah, a usb device would need drivers, and the device itself would be a hell of a lot more complicated. but im glad someone thinks that im not out of my mind, well...at least not completely. i mean, seriously, its not like im sticking afork in a wall outlet. im using a low amperage, low to medium voltage electical shock to make a game a bit more of a challenge.

[crenn]

Sticking a fork into a wall socket..... been there, done that..... but the switch was off!

And I'd enjoy if you did this... just make sure that you don't kill yourself... btw... if you do this... have someone with medical knowledge near you when you do this.

[Slug Toy]

well i sort of got an answer from my brother about the electronics circuits. apparently hes throwing together a website for all that stuff. he just needs to figure out how to make and link to other pages. after that, there will be schematics, and descriptions from what hes telling me.

i had a thought though, to kind of help out. im not 100% clear on whether this is going to be just an electrified mouse, or a kind of suit thing. either way, its going to be cool because the shock will make you flinch a bit... not quite like what a bullet does, but it makes the first shot count even more. to go along with this, maybe a "taser" design isnt the best. i think what you should consider is maybe a small capacitor bank that can charge up nice and fast, and deliver a medium voltage, low current burst each time you get shot. this would make it an instant, single pulse, instead of a shot burst of a certain frequency. it would be more accurate to being shot. the instant discharge is definitely more surprising.... my brother has some huge capacitors.... we're talking like 500 volts and thousands of microfarads. the discharge from those will instantly weld metal, and its really an eye opener if you touch one of those when its charged up.

anyways... ill see what my brother can do about some sort of capacitor idea. and no, i dont think you're really crazy.... only as crazy as me.

[crenn]

Hmmm.... I don't know of any single capacitor being able to give out 500 volts, but I have heard of capacitors banks doing that... was a very large circuit that I saw (it was for a soccer robot a university was designing), but thinking about it.... that would be a good option.... as long as you control the timing constant of the capacitors to give a very short pulse, low amperage but a 250V shock. Something like that I think. Even 100V would be enough to give a nice little shock.... maybe even 50V. But for this, we want it to shock them... not fry their skin.

[Slug Toy]

yup, those are my thoughts.

the 500 volt capacitors... those are industrial. we only have them because my dad owns an electrical company. other than that they're nearly impossible to find. they're for AC too, and 60Hz. i really dont know what you could use them for though...

[crenn]

Hmmm... I wouldn't know myself, but I do know that there is a circuit that can amplify voltages greatly.... if needed, I can pull them up.

But capacitors being able to handle upto 125V are fairly easy to find... at least in Australia.

[Slug Toy]

yep, there are voltage doublers, quadruplers, octuplers, it all depends on how big a step you want to take the voltage up by.... its infinite if you have enough resistors and capacitors.

the designs are pretty simple. i dont do a heck of a lot of electronics work, but i bet i could figure it out. but ill still give my brother the task. ill just tell him to come up with a voltage multiplier with a small capacitor bank that can discharge at about 60Hz if needed (that rate should cover the fastest guns, never heard of a handheld gun that shoots more than 30 rounds per second actually).

i just cant remember now. what voltage do mouses run off of? i dont know if its 5 or 12. that would make a difference on what kind of stepping we use for the voltage multiplier... say we go with 120 volts for the end discharge, we would need a multiplier of 24 to get there from 5 volts, but if it turns out that the mouse runs off 12, well thats 12 times 24, and thats 288 volts overall.

i would say go with about 75 volts though. 120 is probably a little too painful for regular shockings.

[Slug Toy]

ive already asked my brother about the design of something that can discharge 75 volts like i was talking about. i forgot that capacitors cant discharge at 60Hz. we're probably talking about 10Hz at best. if you want a faster discharge, well you'll probably have to use multiple capacitors and some sort of programmable circuit to discharge a different one each time.

that brings me to another question, just so i know what the heck we're dealing with. what is the idea for interfacing this whole thing with games? i just cant see how this is going to work, unless you start frankensteining things together to make some sort of monster box that sits beside your monitor, with two electrodes running to the mouse.

[AKA_RA]

basically, it would start out as a hidious mess of wires and capacitors and such. but eventually i would of course try to minimize the size of the unit that controlled the shocks. i want it to use a usb, but i dont know how i would do that honestly, i dont know enough about that sort of interface, yet. if i made a prototype using a parrallel port, i can imagine testing and eventualy programming going much smoother, its just that i dont want it to be out of date before its finished. considering the fact that i dont plan on finishing this in the next few months, or anyhting close to that actually. this is more of a long term project thats going to involve a lot of research.

[Slug Toy]

well in that case, perhaps ill work on a simultaneous prototype. i like this idea... as long as it works.

i can definitely supply electronic designs courtesy of my brother, and perhaps design decisions. beyond that though... well its going to be trial and error, and error, and error, and error, and error, and electrocution.

i wonder if it would be possible to use one of those programmable lego things to make this work. i remember using a computer to make a lego vending machine work when i was 11 or 12. or maybe if theres a joystick out there with a force feedback function, maybe you could take the driver for that and modify it and slap that in with the mouse.

ill start looking into a capacitor bank for now though.

[yusaku]

I take no responsibility for anyones death, but to reiterate others here u can take a lot of voltage at low amperage and maybe safer high frequency ac. However u MUST limit amperage in some way try to find a really fast blow quarter amp or less fuse to put in the circuit... just in case! the circuit should be designed to not be able to put out large amperages in the first place. better yet try to find a tenth amp fuse that should be RELATIVELY safe. Good luck and get right with God before attempting.

[Slug Toy]

thats what i was thinking about... maybe a fuse. you might be better off using a small strand of steel wool though, or a tungsten filament.

if you use a quarter or tenth amp fuse, and it blows, thats already too late. it only takes 6 milliamps across the heart to kill you, thats 3/500. we are probably talking about going across the hand though, so really you shouldnt need to worry... the worst you might get if it goes wrong is nerve damage.

[tybrenis]

I really, really don't recomend doing this. Even if you take all precautions there is still something that could go wrong - in general this is just a bad idea. The only safe way you could pull this is if you used something weak like maybe two nine volt batteries, and that probably wouldn't be so much fun.

[d_stilgar]

First off. The gag toy is legal to sell. So it must be safe to anyone without a pacemaker. Second. If both prongs are in the mouse, you will get amps across yor hand, not your heart.

Example: How many of us have accidently touched a wall socket or the prongs of a plug as we plugged it in? How many of us are here to talk about it? I rest my case.

Go ahead and do this. I say that to anyone with any amount of knowledge and sense.