touchpad keyboard

[Slug Toy]

so im sitting here idle just wondering about some neat things that are probably not practical, and i thought up something awesome... a touchpad keyboard.

i think i saw some heat or touch sensors in a worklog just a while back. so how about this for a mod proposal? take a bunch of those sensors and replace each key with them. the keys are basically closing an electrical gap as far as i can understand, and the sensors would be doing the same thing. i think it would work. i dont think size would be an issue because im pretty sure the sensor i saw was a 4mm square.

so is this a great idea or what, or am i finally going crazy?

[DaveW]

I think this has been done before...could be wrong? It's more than possible. I can at least tell you that it would annoy the life out of me to not have the bounce of a real keyboard under my fingertips.

-Dave

[Slug Toy]

true, nothing beats the satisfaction of clicking keys. it would be an interesting adjustment to make... no sound, and the feel of a rather solid surface. it might bring up some uncertanty as to what key you're hitting for a while until you get used to it.

i personally like the idea though. it can make keyboards look a lot cleaner. it could make them a lot easier to clean too.

actually, what might be another cool implementation for touch sensors is in a mouse. if your hand isnt touching the sensor, there is no response... so maybe you dont accidentally bump the mouse when you dont want to... kind of like those laser tag guns where you have to touch the two leads to make them work.

[progbuddy]

Someone has already made an optical keyboard (man, that thing is awesome) in which a small sensor detects where your fingers land on the projected keyboard.

[Cannibal23]

one issue with heat sensors. do you live where it snows durig the winter? ever get cold hands? good luck typeing anything.

[Indybird]

Someone has already made an optical keyboard (man, that thing is awesome) in which a small sensor detects where your fingers land on the projected keyboard.
There's a difference between than and what Slug Toy wants to do. That projects an image of a keyboard onto a surface and detects the keypresses with optical sensors. What he's doing is making a normal keyboard, but replacing the buttons with touch sensors.

[Airbozo]

Yes it has been done before. They are used extensively in the industrial computer market. Years ago they were marketed to the general computer using public, but what Dave said happens to be why you don't see them in mass. People could not get used to NOT having key movement.

http://www.eaoswitch.com/

[Slug Toy]

well as long as i know its possible, its now on my list. i personally like the idea of no moving parts... no sound... easy cleaning... and the whole being custom part too.

now i need to figure out how to get a hold of a bunch of those sensors.

[Maz]

well slug, you have made this request at the perfect time.

Qprox (http://www.qprox.com/products/index.php) is the key.

they have application notes showing how to make the sensors too.

im using them for lights, power, and eject buttons in my mod.

[Slug Toy]

beautiful, i like those sensors. im bookmarking that for now. i dont know exactly when ill get around to doing something like this, but hopefully soon.

it must have been your mod i was thinking about then, maz. you have a picture of one of those sensors somewhere.

now im happy... or even more so than before.

[CanaBalistic]

Here's a thought for makeing this thing do-able. You could use light sensors under a piece of glass. Like the ones you can find in night lights. Then all you'd need is an led or light shining over the keyboard. When your finger covers the sensor it will trip the switch.

[Redundant]

But when you put your hands over the keyboard, won't the shadow from your palm trick it into thinking a key has been pressed?

[Slug Toy]

i could see that sort of problem coming up if you use light sensors. probably not a good idea.

the link that maz gave me has some good sensors that detect touch and proximity, and you can adjust the sensitivity... so thats good enough... in fact its VERY good. i can put those all over the place... keyboard, mouse, case, maybe the monitor.

lots of fun thinking about this.

[vidas7de7jesus7]

A keyboard needs real keys like a book needs paper pages. There's comfort in the clacking and the rustle. Plus, it's just better.

[chedabob]

you could, in theory, buy a bunch of capacitive touch sensor chips (102 to be precise), then wire them all up to the existing key tracks, and put the sensor under the key. but it would cost a lot. the chips are $2 a piece. then youve got all the capacitors, and resistors and stuff. it would cost like $300. would be extremely cool though. could be used for a cool concept keyboard (cos you wouldnt need as many sensors). or a touch pad.

EDIT: you've made me question my design. im thinking of doing a design like the weapon box in the first resident evil film, having a t-virus vial for a reservoir, and on the buttons, control the pc, and the lcd displays the output.

[Airbozo]

Another interesting effect could be to use pressure sensitive pads, so if you pound hard on the keys, it will become CAPS (like on a music keyboard, the harder you press the louder the note), just buy a cheap midi keyboard and you have the sensors...

Just an odd thought while I was playing with the keyboard last night...

[Slug Toy]

actually my keyboard has 120 keys because i have some multimedia functions too. id probably go buy another multimedia keyboard with a better shape and work with that.

assuming 120 chips constitutes volume shipment, that should work out to $60US, and my brother has access to cheap electronics at a few stores. lets say about $200 canadian right now, not including the keyboard. probably about $240 with a solid multimedia keyboard.

if i want to do a mouse, id probably go with the razer copperhead or krait, and i think those have 5 buttons, and id add one more sensor for palming (it would control the laser so if your hand isnt making contact, the laser doesnt activate, but the buttons still work). so ill allow about $50-$75 for that stuff, depending on price of the mouse.

so yes, i guess $300 is a good estimate for now. for that money, i had better make sure i know what im doing.

it would be such a cool idea though... i just cant get over it. the styling would have to be just right for something like that though... like a very futuristic shape and either super bright glossy white or just barely off white and matte. or maybe a very clean metallic look with some blue acrylic accents. i actually dont know right now... but it would have to be perfect for $300.

<EDIT> that pressure sensitivity idea is cool, but that would mean fiddling with the driver to support such a function. im not a software guy at all, and if i did something like that, id probably ruin the driver unless its retardedly simple to code for.

[Airbozo]

Yeah the hardest part of the pressure sensitive thingy would be making sure it works with current drivers.

BTW: the copperhead has 7 buttons and the krait has 3.

[Slug Toy]

ah, i was just checking out the mouses. ill probably do the krait... eventually. i dont really like having 7 buttons to take care of. actually, i dont like having 7 buttons to press, or accidentally press. 3 buttons is enough.

actually, i was just having a bit of fun with my mouse too. i had it upside down and was using a needle to control the cursor because my mouse is an optical one. i wonder if you could take the optical part out, flip it upside down, and use your finger to control everything without having to make physical contact.

[vidas7de7jesus7]

Actually, you could install touch sensative keys for the multimedia stuff. That's a good idea.

[chedabob]

touch sensors would be cool on a mouse, but somewhat annoying. cos most of us rest our fingers over the buttons, so they would be constantly pressed.

you could mod a keyboard to have a multimedia display, and underneath it have 4 or 5 touch sensors, programmed for functions displayed on screen. shouldnt be too hard to do (especially if you had a keyboard with a usb hub).

[Ennio]

looking for a cool keyboard?

check this out.
http://www.artlebedev.com/everything/optimus/

[simon275]

I read about those. I figuered it was vapour ware but they are shipping the 3 key version and the full keyboard comes out later this year.

Good find Ennio and weclome to the forums.

[DaveW]

This has come up on these forums before, those keyboards are apparently a huge con. They don't exist and a false company takes your pre-orders. Everything on the site is a render.

-Dave

[Slug Toy]

so those boards WERE fake? i heard something about that a while back, and then everything went hush hush. i guess it was another thing that was too good to be true.

well i did a little sketchup work and i have a preliminary model of the keyboard im thinking of. i added in a nifty mouse idea too, but i dont know how possible it is.

http://i44.photobucket.com/albums/f26/z1gg3rm4n/Keyboard1.jpg

http://i44.photobucket.com/albums/f26/z1gg3rm4n/Keyboard2.jpg

http://i44.photobucket.com/albums/f26/z1gg3rm4n/Keyboard3.jpg

i didnt feel like going through and putting symbols and letters on the keys... it already took me long enough... not doing any more.

its pretty straight forward for the keyboard. you touch and it senses, and you type that way. no more pressing buttons.

the mouse is a little more difficult. the optical sensor is upside down on the top, and it senses your hand movement. there are two buttons there that correspond to the left and right mouse buttons. the scroll wheel i left out because i wasnt sure whether to keep it as a proper wheel, or touch sensitive slider. the biggest issue i see with this idea is how the heck are you supposed to hit the buttons while moving your hand? i dont know... ill figure it out later.

[chedabob]

eurgh, that mouse is horrible :P

[simon275]

This has come up on these forums before, those keyboards are apparently a huge con. They don't exist and a false company takes your pre-orders. Everything on the site is a render.

-Dave

Ahah I was right it is vapour ware.

To bad that is one of the coolest products ever if it did exist. It woulc cost like $5000 or more though having hundereds of oled.

Oh well.

Touch pads are horrible for gaming any way.

[josuave83]

touchpad keyboard? hmmmmm heres an idea.... touchscreen lcd... with a display of the keys

if you figured out how to control the lcd via usb or com port.. you could prolly do a little Houdini with VB or C++ to make a keyboard program with some customizable skins/themes

[Slug Toy]

eurgh, that mouse is horrible :P

im not that thrilled now that i look at that thing too. ill tell you though... for 2:30 in the morning, thats some pretty good work if i do say so myself. im surprised i managed to make everything fit together so well.


touchpad keyboard? hmmmmm heres an idea.... touchscreen lcd... with a display of the keys

if you figured out how to control the lcd via usb or com port.. you could prolly do a little Houdini with VB or C++ to make a keyboard program with some customizable skins/themes

i was thinking about that too. only problem is that i have no experience in VB or C++. i tried to learn C++, but that stuff is just terrible on me. i just dont want to go there. its easier to use chips that dont require any programming, and slap them in to replace buttons. all it has to do is sense touch and close a junction to make a signal. has to look good too, and i dont know if a screen would look all that great... it would show fingerprints and everything.

[Airbozo]

http://www.elotouch.com/products/lcds/default.asp

Used to install these in different stores. elotouch comes with usb or serial interface and a simple keyboard app that will display on screen. Calibrate it up and you don't need a mouse or keyboard, since you touch the lower right left for 5 or 0 seconds and the kayboard comes up.
Expensive but they work. Well.

[NamesAreUseless]

what about instead of a touch pad keyboard how about an infrared kkey board
its like a key board but u put this smallblack box on a table then it shines the leters and numbers on the table kinda like alaser pointer and u simply tap the keys leters on the table or surface buy one @

http://www.iwantoneofthose.com/projector-keyboard/index.html

[Slug Toy]

what about instead of a touch pad keyboard how about an infrared kkey board
its like a key board but u put this smallblack box on a table then it shines the leters and numbers on the table kinda like alaser pointer and u simply tap the keys leters on the table or surface buy one @

well yes, an infrared one would get the job done, but that means i dont build it. i want to build it, which is why the touchpad is most practical. i dont think i have any knowledge on how to make a projected keyboard from scratch. i CAN do the touchpad thing though.

[chedabob]

http://www.engadget.com/2006/08/28/hands-on-with-the-optimus-mini-three/

not vapourware like somebody said.

a touch keyboard would be a cool concept, but difficult to implement.

you could possibly get an old keyboard, make a note of the wiring pattern, then use two thin circuits (on say thin clear film), then place a layer of thin foam inbetween. its possible, although you could get multi button presses.

you could possibly do a similar thing, but with a light dependant resistor, so that when you put your finger over the key, it registers it as a press. you would need a NOR gate though.

that would be a cool idea though : a projection keyboard, where the projector is under the desk. expensive, but extremely cool.


ooh, that gave me another idea. mount a digicam underneath, and try and get it to detect key presses.

hell, if you felt like writing code instead of building, you could buy a touch screen, then remove the bezel, mount it wherever you want it, then write an onscreen keyboard

[Airbozo]

hell, if you felt like writing code instead of building, you could buy a touch screen, then remove the bezel, mount it wherever you want it, then write an onscreen keyboard


On my eariler post I mentioned that there already is one of these apps. I even think you can get the code from elotouch and modify it to make the keyboard look anyway you want... From what I have heard you can use the keyboard app on _any_ touchscreen.

[Slug Toy]

ok, all arguments aside... ive got my mind set on these touch sensing chips and i have to slap them into a keyboard now. i dont think anything appeals to me as much as this.

i have a question that maybe one of you electronics gurus can answer though (i know a tiny bit, but not enough to even make my own circuits). this chip here http://www.qprox.com/products/qt100.php appears to need one resistor and one capacitor, among other stuff i dont understand, to work. apparently changing the capacitance and/or resistance will change the sensitivity.

anyways heres my question. my brother says that you need one capacitor and one resistor per chip to make the thing work. that can take up a lot of space. im thinking that you can maybe cut that number down and have one resistor and one capacitor feeding more than one chip... maybe feeding ALL chips on the keyboard (thats about 120 chips based off the number of keys on my multimedia keyboard). so would this be possible or would it start getting too complex or start interfering with signals and stuff? this is probably one of the biggest obstacles right now.

[EPYK]

you know what... the lcd idea would not work....

does not accept more than one graphical input..
translates to no shifting, no controle or alt commands....
but if the lcds did come to accept more than one graphical input... then that would be cool

[chedabob]

slug toy: read this link
http://forums.bit-tech.net/showthread.php?t=100148
bit-tech.net Forums

its the same thing, but with a 110 chip instead of a 100.

its gonna cost you a lot. they are like $2 a pop, and you need one for each key.

also, i think the 100 doesnt have the range capabilities as the other ones, so you could get multiple button presses at once.

[The Black Pumpkin]

Make sure you build two, Slug Toy. One for you, and one for me. :D

[Slug Toy]

slug toy: read this link
http://forums.bit-tech.net/showthread.php?t=100148
bit-tech.net Forums

its the same thing, but with a 110 chip instead of a 100.

its gonna cost you a lot. they are like $2 a pop, and you need one for each key.

also, i think the 100 doesnt have the range capabilities as the other ones, so you could get multiple button presses at once.

ok i sort of understand that link. the function of every piece makes sense. its just too bad i dont have more knowledge about electronics... id be able to figure this stuff out for myself. damn me and my not-so-electronics-savvyness.

as for the $2... im not so sure about that. on the qprox website the qt100 is listed at 65 cents each or something... plus or minus a couple cents. i have to look into that a little more i guess.

my big question still remains though. is it possible to run more than one of those chips off of one resistor and capacitor? that can save me a bit of money and plenty of space and possibly make a low-profile board feasible. i HAVE to know this... im just killing myself over it.


Make sure you build two, Slug Toy. One for you, and one for me.

well lets see how this turns out first. im not 100% sure this will work in practice. it makes sense in my head for the most part, but like i keep saying, i dont know anything about electronics.

if it does work, and you have the money, i sure can whip another up. shipping would probably be the biggest hassle.