fishtank

[alleycat13]

i have been surfing these modding sites lately and have noticed how people have built cases with fishtanks attatched and i came up with a great idea that i am going to try

the fish inside the computer case!

yes it will take a lot of water cooling and some very very carefull planning but i think that it could be done!

every socket would have to be covered and water proofed but i have the patience for that the only thing i was wondering about was the fan is there ahyway that i can water cool it to the point where a fan would not be needed?

any tips and ideas that people have would be much appreicated becuase funds are low at the moment so will not be starting project for a month! have the actual pc at the moment!

its an only family pc 256mb pentium 3 20 gig harddrive and windows 2000 thats all it has soundcard four USB nothing special.


i was thinking fibreglass of some sort round the sockets with a water proof coating like they have on boats but then again acrylic glass could be used only thing with acrlyic glass is the pressure.

what do you guys think??? and has anyone seen it done before?

[Frakk]

i havent seen it done and it is not impossible. it is however very delicate especially if you want fish in it. you have to seal everything with some sealer that doesnt wash away which is hard to do when it is surrounded by water. you can cool it easily, you need heatsinks on the chips and water moving through them. you also have to suck the hot air and run it through a radiator or find an other way to cool it down. it is complicated but not impossible and it would be totally cool with all the fishies swimming around the memory and videocard :D

[Xato]

Another problem i can see is keeping it all clean. Fishies need food and they poop alot too!

[redhalo]

Temperature fluctuation will likely kill off your fish anyways. There are non-conductive fluids that people have submerged their computers in before. Probably not fish friendly, but you don't have to seal anything up.
http://www.xoxide.com/fluidxp.html

[jonopaul01]

Trust me, keeping a fishtank clean with just fish in it is hard enough. If you have to clean them and everything as well it could get very problematic. Also, have you got a fishtan? If you do then you will know that a fishtank is very heavy. A hundred litre tank (probably the best size for a computer) weighs 100kgs. This means that once you have a computer somewhere it is a big issue to start moving. However I don't think that temperature fluctuations should be a big problem. A 100litres will take a lot of heat before warming up and the sides of the tanks will be glass, a very bad insulator which will allow most of the heat to easily escape. I suppose if you have tropical fish then all you need is a good heater (which tropical fish will need anyway) which will monitor the heat and turn on or off depending on your heat. Anyway, give us some more details. I would love to see this mod in action.

[Malatory]

maybe try building a small take in the window area and putting in a beta would be the best thing. Still cleaning and adding water would be dangerous in the machine is on.

no longers being made ..
http://www.xoxide.com/liliaqsipa.html

[eXtremeWeb]

Well if this can be done, I think what you are planning to do is also possible. good luck with it!

http://gathering.tweakers.net/forum/list_messages/973421///aqaurium

Sorry for the page-language, couldn't find one in english...

[Whisp]

no offence but someone mentioned a betta in a small window. Im not one of those nature nuts but it is a mis conception that bettas like to live in such small areas that it is disturbing the ignorance on the subject of this fish. All those sites that show those little fish tanks and say the betta like them are full of beans lol and I can gurantee the fish won't be happy in there. Some of those people wil argue they live in puddles and such but they are WRONG. Rice paddies are deep enough and lots of swimming room. Anywyas I just like to see a happy betta. To be able to tell if a betta is happy he will bubble nest unless of course he is really old when it comes to a male. female is a bit harder to tell. I can say that I have a betta and he wasnt even happy in a 3 gallon tank. As soon as i put him in a 6 gallon I have since then had bubble nests every night. Anywyas just a bit of info.

As for temperature this could be an issue. Depending on the fish you want it to sit anywhere between 25 and 29 (30 is ok but pushing it . I prefer a temp of 26. Betta wont be happy either unless at the right temperature too since I have played with that.

As for cleaning if you do do it I would get some good sand substrate. Dont need to go all out on it and get the most expensive stuff unless of course you have a planted tank then I would recommend like some onyx black sand from seachem and such. Anyways pertaining to the sand it is easier to clean since all the food will sit on the top and makes vacumming a hell of a lot easier unlike gravel. While doing the vacuming the water that is removed is the water you should replace with fresh water that has been treated. Some say to do a 50% change every week. I do less since I have a planted tank.

So it boils down to will you be able to easily clean it, feed them, and have the right temperature.

As a suggestion for a sealer i would use the stuff for glass aquariums since this is fish friendly and works very well.

For a heater the rule of thumb is 5 watts per gallon.

Also for how many fish it is one inch per gallon when it comes to fish hard on the bio load.

Anyways I would build it, test it for leaks along with temperature for at least a week and see how the temps are then when you know your range pick spcific small fish that will be light on the bio load and can withstand the temperature range. ( also take into consdieration if teh computer is going to be on 24 hours or not). I personally wouldnt add fish tothe tank has been cycled for at least 2 weeks at a minimum and i personally wait a month.

Now an other point on cleaning. If you want something in there that is a nice little fish I suggest a pgmy cory. Should have 3 or more but i have 2 and they are my little vacuums lol. If their is a problem with algae which may not since not a lot of real sunlight getting in I would then suggest a dwarf pygmy. This has your waste food covered and your algae. Only need one oto. Both of these fish are a very hardy fish.

Rest of fish is up to you but becareful.

As for teh tank itself I would use acrylic/plexi glass but would want to reinforce all the corners and edges with the sealent and some type of support bracket .

A total solution to temperature issue inside would just to add a heater and a chiller system and that will get rid of any issue of that. Every time i see a post with this question there is always those that throw out the temperature issue so that is teh answer to that. Chillers are not cheap though as a note.

[daratbastid]

Are you implying to submerge the electronics in the water itself? :eek: I built
a fishtank mod however it dosnt involve getting the components wet. There is one betta in there now but it will accomidate 3 fish. I am going to replace the betta with a few neon tetra, should make for a nice glow under the UV

www.paulrutigliano.com

[MisterChief]

Maybe you could place the fish in their own enclosure inside the tank beside your computer? I can imagine keeping fish alive next to a computer will be extremely hard. Not only do you have to worry about temperature, oxygen, filtration, ph levels, etc. but now you have to think about water contamination (all those chemicals involved in making a computer can't be good for the fish!) And how exactly will fish survive in non-conductive fluid, since you can't use regular water?

Sorry to sound negative, but I wouldn't try a project if I knew it wasn't possible to do. I think the seperate enclosure in front of all the components would be the best idea.

MC

[Whisp]

Temperature isnt a issue and can be rectified. Throw a tube and a air rock and you have air so that is solved, Filtration can easily be modified onto the air rock if no space for a good filtration and do a diy bio media rock and sponge filtration. If those all are done right amonia and ph and your nitrite and nitrates should be fine.

As for sealing in the componets that could be an issue but like i mentioned in my post i would just use acrylic and aquarium sealer and build around the componets so they have room for the water cooling and add extra mosfets along with soe other resources for air.

So other then sealing the parts right in with sealer which most likely would not work there is a way but needs to be carefully planned.

Also if you dont go for tropical fish and maybe go for something that requires a cooler temp to live in like 24 degrees c, which would be below room temp, which we know you cant air cool past anyways, if you put a chiler in the system for the water of the aquarium it would probably actually help cool your system like water cooling and work better since most water cooling systems I have seeen dont have a chiller on them.

As a side note i would keep the chiller external because internally it may cause some condensation effects unless of course its a submersable but they cost even more and would take up some space that the fish most likely could use.

[Xato]

Wont fish gunk get into your Waterblock and corode it? And wont air in your system damage the pump?
Tho the air problem could be fixed by using a single moving part pump...
such as this one http://www.pccasegear.com.au/prod1663.htm

[Whisp]

You wouldn't use the tank as the rez for the watercooling.

That would just be stupid . Especially since you may want some additives for the water depending on the setup of the watercooling which would be poisonoius. If you had no fish or anything you could use a submersible pump.

Still though you would want the tank seperate from the watercooling line. I think that is just common sence.

[spineblaZe]

I believe this mod would be pretty much impossible to do. I own several fishtanks, and even if you just used 1 small fish you wouldn't be able to pull it off. Keeping the tank and surrounding areas clean (in thise case, the computer itself) is no small challenge.

Tank water evaporates, and leaves leaves an organic film on anything near the tank. It will even build up on the wall behind a tank. Imagine evaporation film and condensation building up on your CPU, MBD, RAM and other components... It won't be pretty. Not to mention changing and cleaning the tank water would be a horribly troublesome task.

Possible? Yes. Probable? No.

[Xato]

"Possible? Yes. Probable? No."

I think that sums up this mod... the orignal idea anyway.

[temmink]

Bit-tech have an example of a fishtank pc in their feature on World Cyber Games 05 Case Modding Competition. It even won a prize.

http://www.bit-tech.net/modding/2005/05/04/wcg2005_casemod/4.html

NB that it is not as you described, the fish arnt actually swimming around on the inside of the case, but it is a pretty good solution.

[Silenti_etc]

I am a fish dork. I have many fish tanks, including a healthy thriving reef (coral) tank which I had to take down recently due to lack of time and cash. (10 gallon tank, over $2,000 worth of stuff in it.) I have also been the head of a big pet stores fish dept for just over 2 years, having ~15 years of personal hobby experiance.

Point: I know fish.

Look, I am going to cut through most of the crap on this issue and lay it flat out. Do not incorperate, at any time, aquatic life of any sort, into the watercooling loop of a computer. You will kill all the live stock. You will gunk up and ruin your waterblocks. Look into a concept called the 'biofilm'. And I mean 'science journal' look it up.

I see this idea kicked around a bunch all over the place. I believe I read a review or worklog about 6 months ago about custom fabricating an acrylic ~1 gallon tank to use as a water cooling res that 5 neon tetra's were put into. In the write up, the author offhandedly said something to the effect of 'and all the neon tetras died. The pH was off or something.' Nope my friend. That is not the cause. Unless additives were added to the water.

I am willing to discuss at great length why a mod of this nature should never be tried if people are truly interested.

[Silenti_etc]

BTW, the kid who won the mod contest and went to WCG 05 looks like he build a computer *around* a fish tank. And I don't recommend this approach for reasons mentioned by someone else earlier in the thread. Water spray (all pumps and air bubbles produce this microscopic mist) will get into everything. Fish tanks are extremely 'organic' and this water spray contains millions of bacteria, algae and fungi that will form a nice gooey or crusty (depending on how wet that particular spot gets) coating on anything anywhere near the aquarium.

[Whisp]

I dont think anyone was talking about putting fish in a water cooling loop.

They are talking about building in side the system where there is free space.

On top of that some of the issues you talked about can be worked around. For example the spray. If you used an eheim submersible with filter canisters witha direct feed into the aquarium you would not have that spray. I have two aquariums sitting here where they are even open on the top but i modified the filtering mnaterial for it and do not have one bit of gunk or white crusty crap because i needed a system that would not disturb the water and splash it around greatly to not relaese the carbon dioxide for my plants. So that can be worked around.

Next if you are woried that much then anything that is that close just coat in a die electric grease like they use for the vapochill systems because of condenstaion and such.

Doing a project like this mind you would not be cheap because in my opinion you would also need a chiller, heater that are of good quality, proper lighting and then sand and plants so that you could work with those types of filtering kits. Dont really need plants but the mist in my opinion is really caused by trying to add air to the system which would be air rocks, bio wheels and such. If under 10 gallons just throw in some plant spikes and no need for a co2 unit as long as the lighting isnt more then I think its 2 watts per gallon.

Anyways in my opinion can be done but just expensive for the gear that would be needed to incorporate it properly.

You would also need a watercooling kit for this but on its own loop and not mixed in with teh aquarium because there would be no room for air to travel thru the case and I wouldnt recommend overclocking. I would also recommed mosfets on anything that can be done too.

note: Also doubt someone would want to do salt/coral setup since the evaporation from that is 100 times more messier and way more to worry about when controlling water levels.

[nil8]

This has been suggested, but make the tank 2 different sections. One for the pc with a separate pump, the other for fish. It will still give the illusion of fish and a pc together. Also, if you have to change your hardware, it's a lot easier.

On top of that you're not screwing with the enviroment of the fish with chemicals or electricity.

[Silenti_etc]

If you were to do this, it would have to be huge. Like someone said earlier in the thread, Whisp I think it was you, even a betta wants to be in something at least several gallons.

Walmart sells a fake 'tv aquarium' in their home decor section next to the lava lights and plasma globes. Its the size of a 14" LCD monitor, uses an air pump to bounce around 3-4 brightly colored plastic fish and is only ~1in or less front to back. Seal up all the air gaps with epoxy or silicone and there you go.


Or use a large aquarium, a 40g breeder would be perfect, and build a submersed 'Atlantis' like compartment for a mini-itx system in it. You'd have to duct it and have some decent cfm blowing through that thing and be anal retentive about making it waterproof.

I'm envisioning paul's "Metropolios" mod inside a fish tank. That could possibly work.

And Whisp, anything moving water with an impellor causes that micro mist. Even fully submerged filters or external canister filters. The impellor causes massive pressure differentials on either side of a moving blade forcing any dissolved gas out of solution, its called the "_________" prinicpal (i dont know who its named after, im sure google holds the answers.) Just evaporation wouldn't cause that film to coat the wall behind a fish tank.

[Whisp]

I would like to see some writing on that since i still dont agree. how a submersible unit makes mist under a couple gallon of water is beyond me. In my opinion it would just be absorb back into the water before it even hit surface.

Also I have had a tank sitting in the same spot for over two years and never cleaned the unit it self or the wall and its pretty clean. Couple white spots but I dont think that would be an issue inside a system. Dust is probbaly more harmful and builds up a lot quicker. And like i said earlier just goop on some die electric greease and that issue solved.

[Silenti_etc]

it makes a mist of bubbles, not just a mist of water. When these bubbles break the surface they cause the mist.

I will dig around for some literature today.


[edit: replaced 'air' with 'water' at the end of first sentance]

[Whisp]

I agree about an impeller making bubbles.. like a submarine. But I dont think it is enoughto be a serious issue unlike an air rock. I think it also depends on how the configuration of the filtration system is setup.

also if the mist is such a huge issue have a chamber that isnt totally flooded so when the so called mist breaks the air its in an enclosed unit. That solves that issue lol

Anyways I still think this setup is possible and if I was rich i would set it up myself.

[Silenti_etc]

You can't seal up the tank the fish are in. They would suffocate in less than a few hours.

[ninja]

Well if this can be done, I think what you are planning to do is also possible. good luck with it!

http://gathering.tweakers.net/forum/list_messages/973421///aqaurium

Sorry for the page-language, couldn't find one in english...

if you want i can translate it to english :)

grtz

[Whisp]

You can't seal up the tank the fish are in. They would suffocate in less than a few hours.


Well you would need a hole that your hand can at least get in since you need to feed and vacuum. That is why I suggested sand earlier since all the gunk stays at the top. As for sufficating I dont think that will happen if you balance your enviroment. Get some seachem oynx sand for your substrate and plant some plants. Since bulb is only so big for this probably wont be more then 2 watts per gallon so no need for a C02 for the plants. Now since have plants you want to get rid of any carbon based filters since they will take nutrients away from the plants.

Now I am running an acrylic setup.

http://www.execulink.com/~whisp1/images/setuptank/tank.jpg

Only a 6 gallon but this isn't the only aquarium I have had. Its an eclipse 6 with built in filter and such. But the thing about it is that it is good to modify the setup. As I mentioned I don't want carbon so ripped that filter out. Also removed the bio wheel that adds air and is for your healthy bateria farm since I will be using something else for the bacteria buildup and I have plants for the air for the fish.

http://www.execulink.com/~whisp1/images/setuptank/filter.jpg

I switched those items mentioned earlier with filter sponge, seachem matrix biofilter support medium and filter floss. Filter sponge is for the big gunk then it goes to the matrx bio media to build up my bacteria colony and also helps with removing amonia, nitrites and nitrates. After all that have the filter floss which removes fine stuff and helps keep the water clear.

http://www.execulink.com/~whisp1/images/setuptank/skimmer.jpg

For the water intake I modded that too since I wanted a skimmer because at one point I had a shield guard I modded on the water out so current wasnt high. I have the shiled off now but still nice and that was easy by using a hose and putting a hole in the intake and strap with a zip tie.

So there we have a environment with everything needed to keep healthy. All I do is a water change every week to a 2 weeks and maybe once a month vacuum because I have two cories running around eating all the scrap food and the poop is fertilizer for the plants.

I also added some plant food spikes under the plants. Pack of 6 like 7 bucks cdn and they last a year per each stick so they help out. Also can add some iron rich liquid fertilizer if you have plants like java moss.

Also for the setup you could modify by adding a piece of acrylic to the top to make it sealed with just a flat piece and a rubber seal. Need to get into it so needs to be removeable to change to clean the filter sponge and replace the filter floss.

As for temperatures as I mentioned you dont have to do it like mine. You could use canisters with an enheim pumps and add a chiller so that temp never gets high to kill the fish. You could also seal this environment in with a lid and i would recommend outside the case on the top. You would need a full tower for this. Biggest one you could find. Or maybe even a cube case since in that one you could make it one side is the awurium and the other the computer.

Anyways I believe this could be done with the right equipment. Especially a cube case. You could even make the whole case acrylic and build right from scratch. There is enough templates and such for mounting motherboards and such.

I also have an other tank just as a side note. 3 gallon with 3 plants and two oto's that are quite happy living on there drift wood. I have had bigger tanks in the past but I moved and been too busy for big tanks or want to put the money in.

http://www.execulink.com/~whisp1/images/fish/ototank.jpg

Oto's are cool since they are friendly and I have a female and a male so they lay eggs and such. And just need to feed them algae disks. Pack of them for 10 bucks is like a year of food for them place they are algae eaters. Very clean system.

I am think of adding some type of lilly pad so they can stick upside down.

[Silenti_etc]

nice setup there. I prefer seachems flourite or flourite red. Onyx comes from a different fracted clay quarry location and contains minerals which will raise your GH and KH. Not a problem with a betta, but more of a problem with the apistogrammas and other dwarf cichlids.

I still contend that computers and fish shouldnt mix. Unless you are computer automating parameters, as some reef keepers do.

There is an article in Aquarium Magazine January 2005 on lighting systems and it goes into the mist situation. Since page scans are illegal, gonna have to buy a copy. There may be versions of the article on that magazines website... if they have one. I know TFH doesnt.

Here are some pics of my planted tank. Its 10 gallons. Has a 36w Coralife Powercompact flouresent light fixture with a 40w 10,000K/6,700K (each half is a different color) CurrentUSA bulb. This tank used to have a pressurized CO2 system with a Milwaukee CO2 regulator & c02 controller. Uses RO'd then DI'd water (RO unit first, output goes through a DI unit. Waste water gets used to water plants, etc). Follows the Estimative Index method of fert dosing as outlined by Tom Barr. This tank was sold off about 4 months ago to pay for a ER visit due to moving my reef tank totally full of water and live rock and corals by myself. Current setup isnt looking nearly as nice at the moment, but I have a gorgeous pair of Kribensis' doing their mating dances while eating all my cherry shrimp($6 a pop) and THEIR babies.

http://www.aquaticplantcentral.com/gallery/files/2/1/9/52f9f74247ad6341b53006093556ada6_original.jpg

http://www.aquaticplantcentral.com/gallery/files/2/1/9/49e4a4efc6ca57324ca14a8fa578052b_original.jpg

Cardnia Japonica - aka Amano Shrimp
http://www.aquaticplantcentral.com/gallery/files/2/1/9/8d16c28fb911562308414c499bb56ed4.jpg

Here is my current setup from about a month or so ago. That black brush algae has totally cleared up. Also added some tropica Sunset Hygro in front of the rotala indica. Gives the kribs in the coconut shell a bit of privacy.
http://www.aquaticplantcentral.com/gallery/files/2/1/9/wholetank51205_original.jpg

You're point about the water changes made me think of another reason not to get aquariums near a computer. I dont know about you, but I know that I, and every other aquarist friend I have get water everywhere when they do water changes or move stuff around. I tend to drip water all over the place especially when I am planting, pruning, or just pullin stuff out. Not to mention duckweed skimming.

I actually talked to a few other fish keepers about this, encluding a guy I am friends with who has owned a really nice fishstore for ~30 years. They say they wouldn't put a fishtank closer than about 2-3 feet away from a computer, tv or any other electronic device you wouldn't feel safe spraying with a squirt gun. Fish Store guy said that a marine aquarium is one of the best illustrators of water spray. Since the salt is left behind, you can easily tell where the spray has landed. And coming from my own reef systems and working at a store which utilizes a filtration system with no bubblers or even hangontheback filters, the amount of salt that coats everything within a few feet of a the aquarium is pretty ridiculous.

Setting a small (<10g) tank on a desk beside a computer or on top of a desk where the computer sits at the users feet would be fine as long as you practiced some common sence about being careful with water. But any closer than that you are risking very expensive sensitive equipment.

[Whisp]

I am still not worried about spray or water. thats what the grease is for. I wonder what would produce more liquid. Condensation from a mach 2 system or mist from an aquarium!!!

Also I like this aquarium /computer

http://nobispro.com/aquatank/

Anyways It in my opinion that you could do it while others may think you can't. but I have seen it done and believe if the proper precations where made that even bigger and better ones could be made internally.

BTW nice tank. Like the coconut shell.

I am really surprised that seeing your tank that you would make a comment such as they would suffocate when you have live plants. Seems odd lol.


Anyways I think its just the modder in me and how I invision it being done. If I had like 6 grand to blow on a mod like that i would do it.

So far two projects linked so going to link two of their pictures.

[cip]
http://home.zonnet.nl/robertstoppels/274_big.jpg

gully
http://nobispro.com/aquatank/final_images/iso_off.jpg

Ive seen others too and will see if i can find them.

[Whisp]

Btw I was sitting here thinking and something else came up in my mind. I have seen many and I mean many systems that use an external water cooling kit where they made a box for the computer to sit on or its on top or beside the system. Inside that box is a tub and a rad/heatercore. the tub is open and these people are using a submersible pump. All around the system are fans and the computer and such.

I personally know someone that has had a setup like that for three years , has not change the computer parts and the system still works fine.

That would be the same as having an aquarium in my opinion since it has a pump with an impellar on it. I know its not inside but its close enough

Humidity in itself isnt good for a computer but people put water cooling systems in all the time. The reason it is ok is because it sealed properly.

For the submersible you could put a lid on these since I have seen some funny things like a cat hair clogged water block but would be the same as inclosing the filtration system. I have seen many mods wherte they have submersibles in an enclosed box.

Then there is pelts and phase change systems in which you have to protect for those systems agasint condensation and the humidty factor goes up anyways and those systems do just fine too.

Thats just more thoughts on the matter.

[Silenti_etc]

The issue of suffocation in a space with greatly restricted area for gas exchange when using live plants:

There is a common myth about using live plants which comes about due to a simplifacation of biochemical processes inside of plant cells and their corosponding mitochondria and chloroplast organelles. That myth is that if you use live plants in an aquarium, those plants will eliminate the need for gas exchange by other methods (air stones, surface agitation and non-sealed off tops). Plants respiration (as due all other aerobic organisms) revolves around this chemical equation (and even here, this is a simplification there are many many more steps):

O2 [oxygen] + C6H12O6 [glucose - aka sugar] = H20 (water) + CO2 (carbon dioxide)

This process takes place in the mitochondria of a plant cell 24/7 365, in light or in dark.

Now with photosynthesis (again, this is simplified) this chemical reaction takes place in the chloroplasts in the presence of significant light reacting with the various pigments, of which the chlorophylls are the most present in green plants, to provide the energy nessecary to combine the first 2 reactants:

H20 + CO2 = C6H12O6 + O2

Also related to this topic is the misconception that a higher level of CO2 drives the level of O2 out of the water. The point at which this would even start to occur would be hundreds of times the CO2 or O2 toxicity level and would have to be done at emmense pressure to the solution due to gas laws and the laws of gas dilution in a liquid. Anyhow, I am getting away from my self here.

Coming back to the 2 chemical equations outlining resipration and photosynthesis...
While plants do take in CO2 and produce O2, they:
1) Only do so in the presence of a significant amount of light
2) Only do so when is respiring at a great enough rate to have extra energy to process (burn in respiration or store) the excess C6H12O6 produced by photosynthesis.
3) The O2 produced by photosynthesis is in an amount suffient to saturate all the O2 requirements of the plant. Plants only release excess O2.

At night, the plants will no longer adsorb CO2 and release O2, thereby drastically lowering O2 saturation of the water column at night. At a low KH (carbonate hardness, a measure of one type of pH buffering capacity of water), in some cases you may also run into problems of radical (read toxic) pH swings and CO2 toxicity. This is generally more the case when using a combination of high lighting (4+ watts per gallon normal flourescents, 3+ watts per gallon Power compact or Metal Halide lighting) high plant density, and direct CO2 addition to the water column even if using a CO2 canister with a pH controlled solenoid valve on the regulator.

And we are also leaving (no pun intended) out one major consumer of O2 and producer of CO2 in a healthy tank. Bacteria. One doesn't have to look past the denitrifying bacteria that should be near and dear to all fish keepers hearts. Look at what is going on in the 'nitrifaction process' also called the 'nitrogen cycle) It might be called something else in Canada and elsewhere, but you'll recognize it when you see it.

The common scenario goes like this:

Fish poop and any other organic nitrogen containing compound => broken down by various [oxygen consuming] bacteria into NH4 (ammonia, may also be NH3, depending on pH, not important to this discourse though). Fish also release 'urine' which is pure NH4, unlike humans for instance which convert NH4 into urea [(NH2)2CO2] in the liver inorder to store it in the body (NH4 is extremely toxic and can't be stored, fish constantly release NH4 through their gills.

NH4 gets broken down by another type of [O2 consuming due to respiration] bacteria and that very simplified equation goes like this:

NH4 + O2 = H2O + NO2 (nitrite) So at this step, you not only have the reaction of O2 with NH4 (thereby removing the O2 from the water) it all takes place inside a bacterium that uses an oxygen-based respiration.

The next step is basically a continuation of this process:

NO2 + O2 = NO3 (nitrate) again, same as above only a different type of bacteria is adding another oxygen to nitrite to make nitrate.

And in anaerobic pockets of a fish tank (usually inside rocks, deep in deep gravel/sand bed, places with extremely low to no water flow) you can have this going on in certain types of anaerobic bacteria:

NO3 = N2 (nitrogen gas) + O2 these cells then use this oxygen in non-respirational chemcial reactions.


The amount of O2 needed to process the food and wastes of an average healthy well-fed (not overfed) betta in a 6 gallon tank outweighs the O2 requirements of the betta itself. Also, massively planted tanks w/o careful control of light, nutrient supplimentation and other factors is bound for disaster. I have also never seen a longterm successful hermetically sealed mini-enviroment. Even Biosphere 2 (http://www.bio2.com/) didn't work out. And no, those little sealed off globes with the elodea and daphnia don't last more than a few months, even under optimum conditions.


In regards to the condensation caused by phasechange coolers (or even high powered TEC's I would assume):

These units typically produce condensation in an extremely specific location, namely the hoses leading up to the cooling 'block', and a small area around and behind the cooling block. An aquarium and its resultant rise in humidity, impellor created mist, and misc spills and splashes isnt so specifically localized. I am also under the impression, as I have no first hand experiance, that when using a phase change system, extensive efforts are made to prevent condensation. I believe most use neoprene in fairly thick layers on the hoses, around the CPU/GPU, and behind the CPU/GPU pcb. I also think many people use lots of die electric grease, silicone sealants and some more exotic materials to combat this very localized condensation. If you were suggesting that because people using phase change systems can deal with the problem, the solutions should hold a straight forward parallelism with dealing with condensation cause by an aquarium. I am not sure that covering every piece of electronics with neoprene, die electric grease or more exotic materials would really be feasible. How would you go about condensation proofing a optical drive? Can't use die electric grease on the laser and neoprene isnt going to work out very well either. Check with people who have experimented with spray painting mobo or pci or agp/pci-e cards. Many components get hot enough to melt/burn off the paint.


I hope this post made some sort of sense. If not, I'll be glad to review and make clarifications.

[Whisp]

As i mentioned earlier that can all be done in sealed canisters. You could easily put some seachem matrix in and have your bacteria colony. I already mentioned that earlier when i mentioned the filter media I am using on my tanks.

As for the drives You would only have to seal around the back end closest to the tank. You could still have the top open and if you seriusly wanted to could protect all drives. For example the scythe hdd silencer. that is made of rubber and foam and the drive gets sealed in with a heat pipe for helping with cooling. So all your hdd's can be protected. That item is located at scythe and called silent box. I had one and I know that no liquid would get to the drives.

As for the optical again you can seal off the hwhole back end. All wiring and connectors if done right could be protected in water cooling hosing but doubt you have to go that far. Just make sure any intake holes into itare sealed and on the front put a rubber seal if you really need be for where it open and closes.

As for the floppy drive that can be sealed too and some of the latest ones on the market are pretty sealed and not as open as before.

So that is your drives covered along with a hdd cooler.

Now for the motherboard you could put die eltric grease over it and water cool the system. Video card can be done with a fanless solotion and rest of componets dont have moving parts so just glob again the grease. Now you should have a couple fans for flow. As a note I kow many people on different forums and I didnt go search but they use 120mm fans and such to help with air flow across the top of te tank. Fans are cheap to replace too. Just think that with aregular tank you spend money on food, filter floss and any meds and fertilizer so whats a few extra bucks.

Power supply is the critical component and something I may consider putting seperate in its own box and make tghe system modular in the back plate or something.

I think it is only limited to your creativity. I have shown there a full working system protected agaisnt this environment.

Most I would see is some rust on some of the metal after years of use.

As a note to the power supply you could also do it now that I think of it since there are fanless of those too.

Video card could be water cooled too instead of a fanless unit but you may want to overclock a bit.

If all that is done you wouldnt even need a sealed aquarium environement.

So lets recap that.

1) you have sealed drives protected by silent box. http://www.scythe-usa.com/case/sbx/sbx.htm

2) watercooling system to cool nb, cpu and vga or fanless solution for nb and vga

3) sealed floppy and hard drives

4) fanless psu http://www.thermaltake.com/purepower/w0050fanlesspfc/w0050fanlesspfc.htm

5) all wires wrapped and sealed with tubing and heat shrink

6) mobo, vid and any other electronics covered in grease (note I have seen whole system cotaed with this stuff and still work. If we really wanted to go nuts we could just sit the system in mineral oil since no moving parts for the majority of the items and the drives are sealed.

Anyways that based on you saying need an open system. I am not going to argue that poiint since part of it is true however from what my local lfs told me you could have a sealed canister setup that would feed and monitor all that. Not cheap though. I personally wouldnt overclock but maybe a bit of vid and a slight cpu nothing major.

I would leave teh top of the system open. reason I said a cube system is because you could have one side the system and the other the aqurium. Im gues ing that would be in the 8 - 10 gallons and with teh right lighting wouldnt need a Co2 injection.

Again this is my opinion that it can be done with the right equipment and the cash to do it.

[Aero]

well, I believe it is possible, I think I read that the guys from Computer Modder maggazine did it once with some neon tetras. Not sure how well/long it workewd, they had only a quick mention of it.

[Silenti_etc]

Aero, that must have been the mention of using neon tetra's.

Whisp: Heck, I guess if you REALLY wanted to do this aquarium in a computer, you could always run the non-drive hardware in a submerged setup. Can't remember the chemical they used, but its non-conductive non-corrosive and you can submerge all pcb hardware (mobo, vids, sound cards, etc). That would prevent damage to those componants and use some kind of sealed box for the drives. If you want to start thinking exotic builds, you could always build a sealed off chamber on the top of the tank, sort of like a plastic hood (the kind with the flipup front) with ducts on 2 sides, one pushing air in the other sucking air out. Have a section of pvc fit rigged to hold a dessicant (with screen or both sides, or some sort of filter material). As the air flowed into the hood it would pick up humidity and any mist. As it flowed out, it would pass through this dessicant reactor, which would adsorb almost all the moisture. This would only have to flow ~10cfm or so to be really effective. This treated air could be routing inside the case as part of the cooling, or even directed at the cpu in a phase change system. This would probably eliminate most if not all of your condensation issues. Since dry air doesn't have water droplets in it.
I also believe doing this is going to be so impractical, we will never see anyone doing it. Like on of those ideas that is feasable on paper, but is impractical enough to bring to fruition that it will never be attempted.

I would also (for personal knowledge) challenge those lfs guys to produce (show you so you might show me) proof that such a product existed. Something like a catalog item, printed off the net, forum posts discussing the existance of said product.
I have found no proof anywhere of the existance of such a thing. And like i said, those globes with elodea and daphnia I see at some 'nature gadget' shops don't last more than a few months before crashing.

Aero: There is a difference between putting fish in a water cooling reservior and saying you successfully incorperated fish into a water cooling setup. As I recall, those guys didn't keep those fish alive for more than a week or so.

[Whisp]

Yeah the so called liquid you are refering to I already reffered to in my post above.

"6) mobo, vid and any other electronics covered in grease (note I have seen whole system cotaed with this stuff and still work. If we really wanted to go nuts we could just sit the system in mineral oil since no moving parts for the majority of the items and the drives are sealed."

It was my number 6 where I mentioned mineral oil. As for the drives I also mentioned a sealed container which is silent box from scythe. I had one so know exactly what i am talking about when it comes to that item and how its made.

The grease though will do the job and you dont have to submerse and everything can be coated for protection. So that stuff you mentioned for that device is unneeded since i already specified how all parts can be protected

as for the sealed filtration systemim talking like the items from pentair aquatics where you attach a submerible pump for the intake and you can add as many canisters as you want with different configurations along with adding a Co2 dispensing item if needed. Also have uv filtration and anything else since the canisters can be filled with the filter media of your choice including bio media. There is also the fluidized bed filters.

With todays technology I think this is more then possible and again I will point to my thread above of how you would seal off all the parts in which they will be protected.

Also note the scythe hdd cooler isnt that expensive. I sold one for like 25 bucks cdn I think. For the cdrom some rubber tape or some sealer will do the job along with the floppy. If needed could seal on rubber and foam over the back where open elctronics are for the ports. Even fans can be protected by putting grease on their little chip for the motor and the fan should be oiled anyways for the magnet and motor. Vid card sound card can totally be coated along with motherboard and if watyercooling no moving parts. Psu if fanless could be covered in grease too.

Anywyas I am just repeating myself but my point is that type of protection of your system could be done for cheap. Most likely the aquraium items would be a little money but if you do that dont have to worry about fancy filtration system. Probabaly just needa chiller.