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View Full Version : Tech questions, where to ask?



jdbnsn
11-06-2006, 12:41 AM
Hi all,

I was wondering if you know os a particular forum or website that would be a good place to find help with system setup/optimization questions. I know there are thousands of them, but I have no experience with these and frankly don't have time to sift through them at the moment. I just need someone to help me review my hardware config and components and give suggestions on upgrades and settings. Anyone know of a good noob friendly place? Thanks a million!
Jon

CanaBalistic
11-06-2006, 12:46 AM
Umm... Your here...

Ask away...

Crimson Sky
11-06-2006, 01:00 AM
LoL...dude.

DaveW
11-06-2006, 09:26 AM
Yeah, this place is great for this stuff.

-Dave

CanaBalistic
11-06-2006, 12:26 PM
Post a quick list of your hardware and we can begin to direct you from there.

jdbnsn
11-06-2006, 12:39 PM
Well, I've posted this type of question here before and didn't get many hits so I just figured that it was a little to far on the technical side and not mod-related enough to be discussed here. But since there seem to be volunteers...

I have many questions, basically I am learning most of this stuff for the first time when it comes to system tweaking. I have been able to slap some hardware together and make it run for years, but not too much beyond that. I have put together a system which runs good, but I think it could run much faster with the proper adjustments. Here is what it's made of:
-ASUS A8R32-MVP Deluxe s939 Crossfire Ready
-AMD Athlon 64 X 2 Dual-core (4800+) still using stock cooler
-Thermaltake Toughpower 700W Crossfire Certified PSU
-ATI 1900XTX Graphics card
-Creative Labs Soundblaster Fatality
-2 GB Corsair RAM (1GB X 2); I need to look up the model b/c I don't know the latency and such off hand but it was not the more expensive model
-IDE1 has master 250GB HDD (West. Dig. WDC WD2500BB-98DWAO) and slave 200GB HDD (Maxtor 6B200RO)
-IDE2 has DVD writer only
-SATA Maxtor 250GB HDD (Maxtor 7Y250MO)
-Running Windows XP Media Center Ed. 2005

At some point I may get another 1900 crossfire Ed and use dual GPU's, and will likely change the CPU cooler as it runs around 45 Celcius idle (seems a little high, but I am not sure). So, with all of this stuff, does anyone spot a potential bottleneck? I just read some posts earlier about the raptor drives and RAID which I have considered for a while, maybe this would help? I guy I know who builds incredible computers sent me pics of one of his latest which had a rambus (I think 8GB) and said it gave him an incredible boost, anyone know much about these? I am open to the idea of overclocking, but not until I can upgrade my cooling system. So that's most of it, if anyone has suggestions of what to try, where to read, I greatly appreciate the help. Questions, comments, insults?
Jon

CanaBalistic
11-06-2006, 01:00 PM
Humm... The system seems pretty powerful... Lemme think...

You can still overclock that with the stock cooler and it should be safe. What i would try is turning down the multiplier and increasing the FSB, You'll get a higher FSB(very good) and keep the stock GHz(or close to)

You could fiddle with the ram timings but since you've got decent memory allready, it probly isnt needed.

You can overclock you GPU and get some performance drivers (i use omega drivers for my x700)

Are you using the sata drive to run windows? you should be for best performance. Also, you can set the page file to your other drive in the IDE channel and increase its size. It should give you a bit of a boost.

There are some programs and background tasks you can turn off to free up system reasources.

IDK how old your computer is but a defrag helps if its needed.

[edit]
I was just checking out your board spec's. You can use the AI NOS and Asus utillities to tweek your settings. I actualy wouldnt use the AI NOS. Insted, use the permanent settings in the utillity.

nil8
11-06-2006, 02:26 PM
I have some experience with ASUS overclocking and cana is right. NOS is designed for people who don't know anything and doesn't work nearly as well as actually going into your bios and tweaking from there. There is an asus utility that allows you to alter all the overclocking items in the bios that I can't remember the name of. I'll find out after I put my WC rig back together this week.

NOS does flat-rate overclocking, if you choose 5% OC on it, then it changes your voltage and multipliers. to make your processor 5% more powerful without allowing you to set options yourself. Very quick and easy way to run into problems. It's quick and it does work, but not always stable and you don't learn anything.

I would say upgrade your coolers and monitor your temps. You can tell your OC issues from temps long before you have burnouts. Start with a base reading on a 2 hour idle test or a 2 hour load test and then increase things slowly and do the tests over again. It's slow and boring, but it gives you the ability to see how your temps vary and how much your system can tolerate before it becomes problematic.

Also, get the max temps allowed by the manufacturer and don't go above these. That's just asking for trouble. Both companies have info on their website about each processor line they produce and their temp range. Another added feature of ASUS is that in your bios you can set a max temp for your processor. If it goes above this your system shutdown automatically. Use this as a failsafe and use the proc's info as your guideline to that failsafe.

The reason I'm suggesting 2 hours is because typically if you're going to have unstable conditions, they will present themselves after a couple of hours.

As for your graphics card, ATITool works wonders. Just be careful, it's easy to throttle it up 20% and not spend the time measuring temps and testing for problems.

Overclocking, like everything else, requires patience. Don't get in a hurry or you could end up with an expensive paperweight.

jdbnsn
11-06-2006, 08:29 PM
Thanks for all of the advice, this gives me some things to start with for sure. I will probably overclock, but not at the moment. I want to ensure some better cooling first b/c I think the ATI is running on the hot side also. I have never heard of the page file thing, so I'll look into that and I will move windows to my SATA as well. I may even get another SATA drive and try RAID, I've heard it helps. I have used ATI tool before, but couldn't figure out how it worked very well so I decided to skip it and not risk the card, but I'll read more on it and try it also. I have also figured out that ASUS NOS is crap, but I neglected to install my floppy drive when I got the new setup so I can't flash bios until I do, and I think I should do this first. Thanks again for all your ideas, and when I get through them I'll probably hit you up for more advice.
Jon

Airbozo
11-06-2006, 08:34 PM
Good thing about the ATItool is that it will test all the settings for you. It will not clock it up to comething it cannot handle. Of course the best testing is a game... I have an ATI x850xt and have done some OC'ing to it with the stock cooler. Got the thing up pretty high before there were any artifacts and then bumped it back a little. It only ran a couple of degrees hotter than no OC'ing. Of course I do have some big fans in my system.

Good luck and post results here!

jdbnsn
11-06-2006, 08:58 PM
I will, and thanks for the tip!
Jon

Omega
11-06-2006, 09:56 PM
Do all Overclocking from the BIOS at 1 or 2MHz improvements to the FSB, Cool it well (this is very important, keep in mind thermodynamics, airflow, etc).

Another trick is to make a 5GB Partition for the windows installation and the other partition for everything else -- this will make windows access itself and it's features quicker.

CanaBalistic
11-07-2006, 12:22 AM
I would hold off on the bios. "If it aint broke, dont fix it" comes to mind when dealing with the bios. Flashing your bios isnt somthing that you'll see any improvment on. With the exception of a press release from asus stating there is a problem and an upgrade is nessecery.

[edit]
Omega, if he moves windows to his sata drive, there is no reason to do that. He allready has a few drives, no sence making a partition. He'll only gain another drive letter and a headache.

jdbnsn
11-07-2006, 12:36 AM
Good points,
I was curious about setting up RAID, is it difficult? I think I need two similar drives, I assume they need to be the same size and input (IDE vs SATA) but do they need to be identical models? And if I did use RAID, should I use that for my OS and which RAID configuration would be best?

CanaBalistic
11-07-2006, 12:52 AM
unfortunatly i dont have sata drives so someone else will have to answer that.

nil8
11-07-2006, 01:22 AM
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/RAID

There is some info to get you started.

Setting up raid for the first time can be a bit tedious, but isn't hard unless you go with some oddball configuration or something massive. If you can, have a resident nerd available who has used raid. If not, ask us.

I have never tried raid on different size or model drives. As a general rule your raid array should contain the same size drives. Preferrably the same model drives.

As for configuration, that is up to you. RAID is fantastic, if it serves a useful purpose. The most common types of raid are 0, 1, 5. The wiki article covers these and much more.

My experiences with raid is limited to fileserver and gameservers. The fileservers typically have raid just for the files due to its cost and the relative ease of setting up a fileserver. The gameservers had nothing but raid arrays and so the OS was on the array. Both setups work perfectly and haven't caused problems. I would say it's a personal choice more than anything else. Preventing data loss is always nice if you're willing to handle the cost of RAID. Besides, large hard drives are relatively cheap these days.

I hate to sound like an old codger, but I remember when 1gb hard drives came out not that many years ago. Now we're up to a terabyte. A gig fits on your keychain. I have a gig in my mp3 player.

As for the cross between PATA and SATA, I doubt it. Unless you can find a raid controller that supports both, it's not likely. Almost all raid controllers support a single system of the big 3.

jdbnsn
11-07-2006, 01:45 AM
Thanks alot Nil8, great resources!

And by the way, don't give me that old codger crap, my first computer had
64k. The wonderful Commodore64, then the major upgrade to the Amiga500.
;)
Thanks again!

jdbnsn
11-08-2006, 09:09 PM
Just a small update, and question. I ran the trial version of Mark3D and my comp scored in the 5700's and also stated that I did not have HT (I assume this is hyperthreading?). Any thoughts on the score and what to do about HT?

nil8
11-09-2006, 12:23 AM
First, do you have an intel processor?
What year of 3dmark did you run?

jdbnsn
11-09-2006, 01:30 AM
All of my hardware is listed toward the beginning of the thread and I used 06'

jdbnsn
11-09-2006, 09:50 PM
Another question, I went on ebay looking at hard drives because I am pretty sure I'm going to run two SATA drives in RAID. My SATA is 250GB 7200rpm and 8MB cache. After looking at many drives I got a bit overwhelmed. Does anyone know if it makes a big difference having 16MB cache vs 8? I know it would be best to get two raptors of course, but the only ones I would be able to afford are the smaller 37GB drives, not sure this would be worth it. Any suggestions on how to choose the right drives for the job? Or if my 8MB SATA would be good enough should I buy another of the same model? Thanks for any help!

jdbnsn
11-12-2006, 08:01 PM
I ran Corsair's Memory Dashboard and this is what it reported: (I have 2 X 1Gb stick of valueselect corsair RAM):

-Module Model: Corsair VS1GB400C3
-Module Type: 1Gb DDR SDRAM
-Memory Speed: PC3200 (200 Mhz)
-Module Kind: Unbuffered
-Location: DIMM 1
-Active Memory Timing: 3.0-3-3-8

-SPD Memory Timing (@200 Mhz): 3.0-3-3-8

Same for DIMM2. I thought this was 400Mhz RAM, but it says 200Mhz, did I miss a BIOS setting or just not understand. And aren't those timings a tad on the crappy side? I have read a few articles about RAM but it's not long before I am confused as hell. Can someone tell me if the timings can be altered in BIOS without hurting the RAM, or is it just like OC'ing in general (i.e. baby steps). Or, is this RAM just plain weak for the rest of the setup. I know there is alot here, I don't expect anyone to explain all about RAM (because I have seen how complicated it is) but if anyone sees anything relevant here please point it out. Thanks a million!
Jon

jdbnsn
11-13-2006, 03:22 PM
By the way, my BIOS had HT disabled by default and I read on a forum about enabling it. So I enabled HT and opened all 16 lanes (or whatever they are) and definately saw improvement. Next I'm going to follow some advice given earlier and change my HD setup by installing windows on the SATA drive and losing the 3rd drive altogether. Played Doom3 last night to see if what I'd done so far helped and wow, crystal clear highspeed! I also have a Crossfire 1900 card on the way but starting to wonder if it's a good idea in the end...I guess I'll find out.
Jon

jdbnsn
11-20-2006, 07:38 PM
I don't think anyone is reading this, but just in case I'll keep updating what I've done and what has or hasn't helped. Maybe someone else may find some of the ideas here useful if they have a similar setup.
I have installed Windows on my SATA drive instead of the IDE and I think that did make a small improvement. I was also advised earlier in this thread about the pagefile so I looked it up and the method I found most useful was to change the pagefile size to at least twice your RAM size ( so just over 4GB for mine) and move the location to a secondary drive which does not have the OS installed on it. This did make a difference, so I looked up more Win XP tweaks. I have found that you can significantly boost speed by minor adjustments to windows, you probably all know this but I have never tried it and didn't think it would make that big of a difference, it does.
Besides the windows tweaks, I flipped through Paul's Modding book (Ch 13) and used some of the ideas, and other found either I couldn't figure out in my BIOS or couldn't find it. I disabled any onboard devices or ports that weren't being used and as mentioned before I turned on hyperthreading. I still haven't read up enough to know what this does exactly, but what I read advised to open HT (X16) and set it to the maximum 1Ghz.
I made a post elsewhere which I may look for and correct, but when someone asked about the difference between Soundblaster X-fi vs onboard sound I said I couldn't tell the difference. It had been so long since I had been able to get my X-fi working that I lost my frame of reference. I have recently gotten the X-fi to work (no easy task) and the sound is definately much better, by far.
Another thing that has changed in my setup is that I just added an ATI Crossfire Edition 1900 master card to the mix. If anyone else here is running similar crossfire setups please email because I need some help from a CF veteran. If you are considering buying a second card and it will be a heavy financial hit, I wouldn't do it. My 1900XTX was handling everything I through at it quite well, very rarely did it hiccup. At first when I setup the CF in the system of course it didn't work. I got some advice to connect the DVI patch cable to the same side of the slave card as the DVI patch cable is on instead of crossing to the other side (no idea why this is supposed to make a diff). Found out it was the X-fi card again, finally got it sorted out and was up and running. So, with the clean install of Win XP Media Center Ed. 2005 on the SATA, and CF setup enabled I started testing games. Doom 3, BF2, & FEAR all looked great. In some cases I couldn't see any improvement from the single card, sometime there was a little. But it worked, so I went ahead and finished setting up the rest of the system by installing all of my software and drivers and such. Now that I have finished with all that, CF doesn't work with BF2 or FEAR, I can only play them with CF disabled so I have more reading to do.
As always, hope this is useful for someone and if anyone has something to add, by all means.

Jon

jdbnsn
11-22-2006, 12:17 PM
-ASUS A8R32-MVP Deluxe s939 Crossfire Ready
-AMD Athlon 64 X 2 Dual-core (4800+) still using stock cooler
-Thermaltake Toughpower 700W Crossfire Certified PSU
-ATI 1900XTX Graphics card
-Creative Labs Soundblaster Fatality
-2 GB Corsair RAM (1GB X 2); I need to look up the model b/c I don't know the latency and such off hand but it was not the more expensive model
-IDE1 has master 250GB HDD (West. Dig. WDC WD2500BB-98DWAO) and slave 200GB HDD (Maxtor 6B200RO)
-IDE2 has DVD writer only
-SATA Maxtor 250GB HDD (Maxtor 7Y250MO)
-Running Windows XP Media Center Ed. 2005



Thanks for the link, I'll definately check that out. And thanks for the info, especially the HD speeds. I've switched my OS to the SATA drive and I think that is enough speed to not warrant a new drive (and you're right that I don't have enough money to blow on frills). As for the memory timings, the lower the number is the better the RAM is from what I understand. Which does put this RAM in the lower spectrum, but what I need to know is does anyone think that it is low enough to be a significant performance issue?

LiTHiUM0XiD3
12-09-2006, 08:28 AM
I ran Corsair's Memory Dashboard and this is what it reported: (I have 2 X 1Gb stick of valueselect corsair RAM):

I thought this was 400Mhz RAM, but it says 200Mhz, did I miss a BIOS setting or just not understand.
Jon

well first thing i wanna point out to u is...... it might say that cause its prolly the base clock of it...... part 2 of this is the fact its DDR ram which stands for DUAL DATA RATE which mean basicaly u double it so yes u got DDR400Mhz lolz dun worry u wasnt gipped if u would like to learn more about ram i would suggest givin this a looksy http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/DDR_SDRAM
have ur self a good time moddin :D

CanaBalistic
12-12-2006, 03:27 AM
With ram, the lower the timmings, the faster the ram. The numbers represent the amount of time it takes the ram to perform its functions. With each number representing a diffrent function. I'd have to look in my manual for what each specific function is but im sure thats pretty easy to find.

hyper threading:
The hyper thread is an extra "highway" of sorts to allow more data to be processed in the same amount of time.

show me the cache:
Think of yourself at a restaraunt. So, when you first arrive, you sit down, order a hot dog, and have to wait for the food to be produced before you can begin eating. After the waiter brings the food, you start eating. Pretty quicky you finish the hot dog, so you call the waiter and order a hamburger. Again you wait while the hamburger is being produced. When it arrives you begin eating. After you finish the hamburger, you order a plate of fries. Again you wait and after its delievered you begin to eat the fries. Your overall eating experience consists of a lot of waiting fallowed by short bursts of actual eating.

After coming into the restaurant for two consecutive nights at exactly 6pm and ordering the same items in the same order each time, on the third night the waiter begins to think "i know this guy is going to be here at 6pm, order a hot dog, a hamburger and fries. Why dont i have thies items prepared in advance and surprise him." So you enter the restaurant and order a hot dog, and the waiter immediatley puts it on your plate, with no waiting! You then proceed to finish the hot dog, and right as you are about to request a hamburger, the waiter deposits one on your plate. The rest of the meal continues in the same fassion, and you eat the entire meal, never having to wait for the kitchen to prepare the food. Your overall eating experience this time consists of all eating, with no waiting for the food to be prepared, due primarily to the intelligence and thoughfulness of your waiter.

This analogy exactly describes the function of cache in the processor. The cache itself is the table that can contain one or more plates of food. Without a waiter, the space on the table is a simple food buffer. When stocked, you can eat untill the buffer is empty, but no one seems to be intelligently refilling it. the waiter is the cache controller who takes action and adds intelligence to decide which dishes are to be placed on the table in advance of your needing them. Like the real cache controller, he uses his skills to litterly guess which food you will require next, and if and when he guesses right, you never have to wait.

Lets say, on the fourth night you arrive exactly on time and start off with the usual hot dog. The waiter, by now really feeling confident, has the hot dog already prepared when you arive, so there is no waiting.

Just as you finish the hot dog, and right as he is placing a hamburger on your plate, you say "gee, i'd really like a bratwurst now; i didnt actually order this hamburger." The waiter guessed wrong, and the consequence is that this time you have to wait for the kitchen to prepare your brat. This is known as cache miss, in which the cache controller did not correctly fill the chache with data the processor actualy needed next. The result is waiting.

(i dont know if this is the same with hard drives)
According to intel, the cache in most of its processors has approximately a 90% hit ratio. This means the cache has the correct data 90% of the time. However, 10% of the time the cache controller guesses wrong and the data has to be retrieved out of the significantly slower main memory (or hard drive in this case), meaning the processor has to wait. This essentualy throttles the system back to ram speed (or hard drive).

Since the processor is faster than the memory (or hard drive), cache is what makes up the diffrence.



You should now be able to see that a bigger cache can hold more data and thus, the processor doesnt have to call upon the slower hard drive as often when it needs a larger file. Creating a performance boost.