Networking question

[Zephik]

I was trying to think of a way for an alternative to dual lan and had an idea. Is it possible to use both a lan port and a wireless card? I'm not sure how dual lan works, but my guess would be that its like MIMO (Multiple in, Multiple out)? So could I set it up to have one receive information and have the other send information or just use both simultaneously?

Why dell decided to put 8 USB ports and only one lan port on my mobo I have no idea. Who needs 8 USB ports?? ...oooh, if you could figure out how to get this to work, then you could buy 8 cheap USB wireless cards and have like super mimo! LoL In my dreams...

[armadilloben]

you could theoritcly be running wireless and wired at the same time but i dont think it will run like dual GBE there theres a few choke points in using a wireless card that would make the wirelss card more of a backup solution otherwise i like the idea and i may implement it myself abd try to find something that will make my dual lan into like a switch buy using wireless

[Zephik]

What is GBE?

[armadilloben]

gigabit ethernet sorry i wont abbreviate next time

ben

[simon275]

Some motherboards that come with two GBE ports allow for dual data flows. You could if you got your hands on some weird drivers have the wired and wireless network running together. The only benefit of dual flow is you can access files on a network drive faster but since consumer level NAS only has a single port it falls flat on its face. So unless you are living in a college dorm and are competing for network bandwidth on a crusty old router there is no point.

You are better off buying GBE adapters for your PC's and GBE routers and using well shielded CAT6 cable.

Or if you must have wireless wait till good 802.11N router comes out don't buy draft N products they aren't upgradeable and you are wasting your money.

(Little summary)
Normal wired network 100mbps
Normal wireless network 24mbps -108mbps

Gigabit wired network 1000mbps
802.11N wireless network 300mbps - Soon

[armadilloben]

Some motherboards that come with two GBE ports allow for dual data flows. You could if you got your hands on some weird drivers have the wired and wireless network running together. The only benefit of dual flow is you can access files on a network drive faster but since consumer level NAS only has a single port it falls flat on its face. So unless you are living in a college dorm and are competing for network bandwidth on a crusty old router there is no point.

You are better off buying GBE adapters for your PC's and GBE routers and using well shielded CAT6 cable.

Or if you must have wireless wait till good 802.11N router comes out don't buy draft N products they aren't upgradeable and you are wasting your money.

(Little summary)
Normal wired network 100mbps
Normal wireless network 24mbps -108mbps

Gigabit wired network 1000mbps
802.11N wireless network 300mbps - Soon

but see simon the thing that really gets me about gigabit ethernet or even 108mbps wireless is that we could have terabit routers and networking hardware but there are so few places were some sort of internet connection is implented at speeds higher the 30mbps and correct me if im wrong but unless your sending files etc. to another pc on your network your never really going to run faster then 30mbps am i wrong?

[Zephik]

Oh duh! GBE totally makes sense now. I guess it didn't hit me because my PC's don't have gigabit ethernet. They max out at a 100mbps.

When is true wireless N going to come out? Any release dates as of yet? Whats the difference? We have a Netgear RangeMAX 240 wireless router that gets up to 240mbps and gets better signal the farther away that you are (if you have the adapter for your PC ...AND if you can get it working, I need to call my isp I guess). But you can also get Wireless G that goes up to 300mbps that does the same thing... so whats different about wireless N?


Now for some more Networking questions...

What is SRX? I was thinking about getting this for my Dad when his birthday comes around. We are moving to our lake house later this year and I want to get him a sweet wireless setup. Router (http://www.linksys.com/servlet/Satellite?c=L_Product_C2&childpagename=US%2FLayout&cid=1130279435381&pagename=Linksys%2FCommon%2FVisitorWrapper), Adapter (http://www.linksys.com/servlet/Satellite?c=L_Product_C2&childpagename=US%2FLayout&cid=1153780941765&pagename=Linksys%2FCommon%2FVisitorWrapper).

What is a Bridge?

What is a Gateway?

What is a Access Point?

What is a Modem?

And the biggest question... lol what is the difference between them?? They all look the same to me! ><

Going a bit off topic... this looks freaking sweet.

Linksys Gaming Router (http://www.linksys.com/servlet/Satellite?c=L_Product_C2&childpagename=US%2FLayout&cid=1166859632665&pagename=Linksys%2FCommon%2FVisitorWrapper)

[DaveW]

What is a Bridge?

What is a Gateway?

What is a Access Point?

What is a Modem?

could be wrong, but here goes:

Bridge: A way to pass a connection through a computer to another computer.

Gateway: A device that controls the flow of data on a network, and allows different protocols to interact. Can also share a network resource, like a network drive or printer.

Access Point: referring to wireless networks, simply a place where you can get access to the network's resources

Modem: A device that decodes the data from the internet into information your computer can understand.

I've not done networkign in a long time, so some of this could be wrong.

-Dave

[nil8]

Very close Dave.
A bridge is something designed to connect 2 different collision domains. Basically a switch is a multi-port bridge, where a hub is a repeater.
Hubs transfer all packets to each machine and then the MAC address on the NIC is compared and used/discarded. Switches & bridges do packet filtering using MAC addresses. This is the reason that switches are 100 or 1000mbps per port and hubs have 100 or 1000mbps divided between all ports.

As for the ben comment, you're correct. Local networks can be 100 times fasters than the internet pipes they connect to. What fuels the development of network technologies and speed advancement is server farms and network backbones. Running a 100mbps backbone on modern equipment doesn't cut it, and GBE was invented.

[Zephik]

What ISP's would you guys recommend? I'm switching ours sometime in the near future, this company just ain't cutting it. I'm not sure what we have at the lake house, but the service is Verizon I believe. So I'm guessing its either satellite or cable. ...lol is there any other kind?

[DaveW]

So I'm guessing its either satellite or cable. ...lol is there any other kind?

Dial up....

...ROFL!

-Dave

[armadilloben]

so gbe was relle for like servers and WAN right simon?

[nil8]

It depends on your ability to get broadband where you're at. If you're a gamer, satellite won't work properly due to lag. (500ms+)
Cable and dsl are the 2 common consumer options.
If you're out in BFE and your ISP supports it, ISDN is an option, but it's quickly dissapearing in favor of cable.

The easy way to find out what's better is to open up your phone book, call every ISP, get comparison rates and see what kind of service you can get.

[simon275]

When is true wireless N going to come out? Any release dates as of yet? Whats the difference? We have a Netgear RangeMAX 240 wireless router that gets up to 240mbps and gets better signal the farther away that you are (if you have the adapter for your PC ...AND if you can get it working, I need to call my isp I guess). But you can also get Wireless G that goes up to 300mbps that does the same thing... so whats different about wireless N?




Right 'ere goes....

Official wireless N comes out in April 2008. Products up till then will be draft products. Rev1.0 which is the current one. And Rev2.0 which will build on new technical advances.

Sure 802.11g is fast like those neat netgear products. But 802.11N maybe be much much faster in the future (Maybe up to 540mbps) when it is finally released. 802.11N also is more secure more on that will be released in future revisions.

But the main implemented technical wonder bar factor that makes 802.11N special is MIMO. Or Multiple-input multiple-output communications. So this is where you have multiple antennas sending and receiving data 3 in the case of 802.11N. Instead of the one present in 802.11G.

(Yes I know there are some sort of sub MIMO 802.11G routers but they aren't up to scratch. )

This allows more bits per second of time or per hertz to be transmitted. As you have multiple independent revicing and transmitting antennas.

More technical stuff now.

MIMO will allow better stronger signals due to beamforming
space-time coding for better transmissions
and spatial multiplexing for enhanced data rates.

Basically "802.11N is the ****!"

So unless you want a little more of a speed boost or stronger and more long range signals then upgrade to a draftN router and cards for your computers. Otherwise a Netgear RangeMAX is a good choice

Sources

Me head
Stuff that I learnt in physics
Dad's book on radio antennas.

(I don't want a debate ironcat)

[simon275]

What ISP's would you guys recommend? I'm switching ours sometime in the near future, this company just ain't cutting it. I'm not sure what we have at the lake house, but the service is Verizon I believe. So I'm guessing its either satellite or cable. ...lol is there any other kind?

There are a few types.

There is cable which can be really fast but if there are many clients on a single trunk cable line in a neighborhood it can slow down a touch. (This depends on your telco's arrangements and physical hardware in your area)

Unless you live far from urban areas stay away from satellite slow and can have interference issues.

If you live within 5 kms of your exchange then you can get reasonably fast DSL "ADSL" "Broadband" connection like any where from 512kbps - 24mbps or even faster depending on your local conditions.

If you have a phone line and you are poor then you can get Dialup but DSL is so affordable you would not bother.


so gbe was relle for like servers and WAN right simon?

Not anymore it is now soildy in the consumer market. Most WANS and servers use 11gbps backbones.

I personally love networking. My major at university is going to be Applications. Networking.

Also hello to SnowFire's pet hippo bob!

[Zephik]

Also hello to SnowFire's pet hippo bob!

LOL!

Don't listen to him! He's insane!

;)

[SgtM]

That's some solid wireless info Simon. I'm a network tech by trade, but wireless is one of those things I haven't played with much. Yes, I can install 802.11b/g routers and cards, and get a network running, and I know the speeds. I've also installed and configured Cisco Aironet 1200 wireless access points. Those things are kewl. 802.11N is still a mystery to me ATM. I'm also up to speed on WAN technologies, and different throughputs, up to an OC192. If anyone wants to know about WAN's just let me know. I'll be happy to post it up somewhere.

[Zephik]

What is the difference between Wireless b/g and WAN?

[SgtM]

What is the difference between Wireless b/g and WAN?

LAN = Local Area Network. Basically, your home and small office networking. Wired 10/100 or Wireless 802.11x
WAN = Wide Area Network. Basically, if I have an office in Chicago, and an office in LA, I would need them connected by a Point to Point circuit over WAN. From there, I could set up a VPN between the offices so the connection is secure. Now, before I can order the circuit, I need to decide how much data I'm going to pass through it on a normal basis. Do I only need a T1 (1.54 mbps) or something bigger like a DS3 (which runs up to 45 mbps -28 T1's)?

I used to work for Qwest Communications. My department provisioned all of their broadband IP circuits DS3 (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ds3) and up. Meaning, I designed circuits to ride over Qwests OC192 (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/OC-192) fiber backbone (or SONET (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Synchronous_optical_networking)), connected to the Local Carrier, and terminated at the customer's premise. At the time I worked for them, Qwest was testing an OC768 (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/OC-192#OC-768). We transferred the movie Gladiator from Atlanta to LA in 7 minutes. This was raw data only. Basically, the movie was ripped to a hard drive like you would a DVD or CD, and then sent from one server to another.

Here's a link with some pictures of equipment that your local phone company uses. (http://www.montagar.com/~patj/phone-switches.htm)

Verizon's West Street Central Office damage on Sept 11th 2001. (http://newscenter.verizon.com/kit/wtc2/photos.html) There were over 2 million voice lines in this CO alone. Let me tell you, it was fun re-routing some of the data (IP) traffic. [/sarcasm]

[Zephik]

Ah I get it now. I was thinking WAN was a wireless deal... but I was thinking of "WiFi".

Isn't T1 (DS1) supposed to be like "Instant"? So why is DS3 (T3?) SO much faster!?

[SgtM]

Ah I get it now. I was thinking WAN was a wireless deal... but I was thinking of "WiFi".

Isn't T1 (DS1) supposed to be like "Instant"? So why is DS3 (T3?) SO much faster!?

A DS3 (or T3) is basically 28 T1's. The max throughput on a T1 is 1.54mbps. Most DSL and cable lines are faster than that. There are a few differences though. Mostly the fact that the T1 is a pure 1.54mbps. Even though your broadband speed test says you're cable or DSL is running at 2mbps, do you ever see more than about 200-300k when downloading something? Same with the T3. It's true throughput up to 45mbps. Who needs them? Larger businesses and ISP's mostly. I used to have a diagram that showed how much data each line can carry, T1, DS3, OC3, OC12.. but I can't find it anywhere. It simplified everything, and made it very easy to understand. I'll keep looking around for it.

[Zephik]

LOL

OC-192 = 9.6 gigabits per second... :eek:

Thats has to be at least a couple grand a month... I could download World of Warcraft in like 3 seconds! lol


Dedicated line broadband speeds and prices
T-1 - 1.544 megabits per second (24 DS0 lines) Ave. cost $400.-$500./mo.
T-3 - 43.232 megabits per second (28 T1s) Ave. cost $4,000.-$16,000./mo.
OC-3 - 155 megabits per second (100 T1s) Ave. cost $20,000.-$45,000./mo.
OC-12 - 622 megabits per second (4 OC3s) no estimated price available
OC-48 - 2.5 gigabits per seconds (4 OC12s) no estimated price available
OC-192 - 9.6 gigabits per second (4 OC48s) no estimated price available

A T-1 line is a high speed digital connection capable of transmitting data at a
rate of approximately 1.544 million bits per second. A T-1 line is typically used
by small and medium sized companies with heavy network traffic. It is large
enough to send and receive very large text files, graphics, sounds, and
databases instantaneously, and is the fastest speed commonly used to
connect networks to the Internet. Sometimes referred to as a leased line, a
T-1 is basically too large and too expensive for individual home use.

A T-3 line is a super high speed connection capable of transmitting data at
a rate of 45 million bps (bits per second). A T-3 line represents a bandwidth
equal to about 672 regular voice grade telephone lines, which is wide enough
to transmit full motion, real-time video, and very large databases over a busy
network. A T-3 line is typically installed as a major networking artery for large
corporations and universities with high volume network traffic. For example,
the backbones of the major Internet service providers are comprised of T-3 lines.

Well going off of this... I would say that OC-192 would be more like a hundred thousand dollars a month... :hurt:

[nil8]

OC is fiber, t is copper.
Great info and pics sgtm. Most people, even computer geeks, don't fully understand just how awesome large ISP pipes are. I've been able to see an oc3 in person and it floored me. Of course you don't see it, but you see the server farm and core routers and all the other equipment.

The scary part about T1's is how old they are and how reliable they are. T1's have been around since the 80's and still are the workhorses of WAN infastructure for most business.

OC lines are the pipelines the internet uses. As I post this, I'm hitting a piece of an OC probably near Chicago. It's probably around 160 or 192 by now.

Here's a question for sgtm. What is the difference between a ds3 and t3?

[agnat]

OK, maybe I don't understand what the real question is... but if you are wanting to run both LAN and WiFi, why not just buy a wireless hub or switch from like Lynksys? I have one and it not only uses wireless (802.11g) but can have four wired connections at the same time. It only cost $40 USD and has pretty good range wirelessly. I have three computers wired to it in my office, two that can connect wirelessly all the time and the laptop which I take out into the yard on nice weekend days. What more could I need?

Thanks,
Agnat