anti DRM

[intergalacticman]

http://i119.photobucket.com/albums/o147/intergalacticman/DRM.png?t=1172085343
DRM is an evil tool used by large corporations to rake in maximum profits
and is threatenting to destroy our freedom

ah the joys of capitalism


(please enjoy freedom responsibly)

[Ironcat]

* I imagine the holders of the copyrights would pretty much argue in favor of DRM. What happened? You get caught downloading something and now your whole 8th grade comp class gets detention?



Digital Rights Management (generally abbreviated to DRM) is an umbrella term that refers to any of several technologies used by publishers or copyright owners to control access to and usage of digital data or hardware, and to restrictions associated with a specific instance of a digital work or device. The term is often confused with copy protection and technical protection measures; these two terms refer to technologies that control or restrict the use and access of digital content on electronic devices with such technologies installed, acting as components of a DRM design.

Advocates argue DRM is necessary for copyright holders to prevent unauthorized duplication of their work to ensure continued revenue streams. Some critics of the technology, including the Free Software Foundation, suggest that the use of the word "Rights" is misleading and suggest that people instead use the term 'Digital Restrictions Management'. Their position is essentially that copyright holders are attempting to restrict use of copyrighted material in ways not included in the statutory, common law, or Constitutional grant of exclusive commercial use to them. Others, such as the Electronic Frontier Foundation consider some DRM schemes to also be anti-competitive, citing the iTunes Store as an example.

[Aero]

I understand the idea behind DRM. Although I admit its a pain. Like I own several CD's from back when Sony had their crazy PC-crashing DRM thingy. I still have the MP3 files and still own the CD's, but I don't have a cd drive on all my computers, so it kinda sucks. Because anything just goes crazy when I try to play the Mp3's.

I also hate it when you buy music online but only get say 3 copy's, and it MUST run on a propritary player. Thats just stupid IMO. (From a users perspective, for the company its pure genius).

I just use Open source software when possible and don't buy CD's with crazy tight DRM anymore.

[AJ@PR]

DRM is an evil tool used by large corporations to rake in maximum profits
and is threatenting to destroy our freedom

ah the joys of capitalism


(please enjoy freedom responsibly)

I'm all for freedom, as in beer.
Freedom, as in speech.

But, not all DRM is "evil tools".

And yeah, this coming from a guy that has bought 2 CDs in his entire life (one was a present), and has over 8,000 mp3 songs in his collection.

BTW: "joys of capitalism"?????
WTF?

Do you know what's the DRM of past communist states? (or rather, the rights management)?
You never see the work. Period.

CAPITALISM, young grasshopper, has enabled you to be born, go to school, have that computer, register @ this site, upload a picture of a snake and an arm, and rant of capitalism. Capitalism.

[Drew]

Uh oh, touched a nerve....

Could be worse.

Could have been me...

[AJ@PR]

Uh oh, touched a nerve....

Could be worse.

Could have been me...

hMM... reading your reply... and re-reding my post...

I see... yeah, sorry for my post if anybody finds it "insulting".

But I don't see cool to bite the hand that feeds you.

:) Thanks Drew

[Omega]

DRM is a wonderful concept, and I stress, concept, but in execution, it's something else to nag at your pant leg and bother you. I know that it's basically there to ensure that you acquired something legally, but hell, I strip DRM off of everything I have to make sure it's easier to deal with. I don't want to have to log in my music when I use another computer, you know what I mean?

[simon275]

I bet you obtained everyone of those songs legally by ripping them off cd's or spending a couple of grand on iTunes. I say we stop here before Dave gets the rolled up newspaper.

[Aero]

This is one of those "better be damn careful" threads. I'm sure the discussion of the use of DRM is ok. But as usual, the talk of illegal activites is prohibited. So be careful my minions, lets not make Dave/Crimson shut this thread down.

[luciusad2004]

I don't particularly like DRM but i understand why it exists. Personally if people could be trusted to not pirate music, movies, software, etc; i don't think DRM would be such a problem.

I don't know if you have ever done any programing but if you have you would probably realize that it really can be a lot of work. Now imagine that you put lots of work in to lets say an operating system. In fact, lets say its your job. Would you want some punk hacking it and putting it on limewire for everyone to download for free? DRM may be draconian, and Windows may be overpriced. But the creators deserve to copy right their work and DRM just helps them to enforce that.

Is it a bit extreme? I think so.
Is it necessary or even useful? Debatable.
Do they have the right? Damn right they do.

You accept the terms of service. If you don't like it stop using your software.


That being said, it would be great if some of these companies would lighten up a little, but i don't know if the consumers could handle the responsibility

Don't get me wrong, im not against free software. Its a very noble cause... if you like working for free.

[Spawn-Inc]

well i know this program is legal and legit, just what you "un" DRM is up to you. it works pretty good i had it skip the tracks a tiny bit.
http://www.muvaudio.com/

[Omega]

I bet you obtained everyone of those songs legally by ripping them off cd's or spending a couple of grand on iTunes. I say we stop here before Dave gets the rolled up newspaper.

Of course he did it legally, he'd be a fool to do it otherwise.



This is one of those "better be damn careful" threads. I'm sure the discussion of the use of DRM is ok. But as usual, the talk of illegal activites is prohibited. So be careful my minions, lets not make Dave/Crimson shut this thread down.

Exactly. Don't make Dave or Paul show up here with the Whoopin' stick. The legality of these boards is quite legit and we should keep it that way.

That being said, the only music I've torrented was from the artist's website itself (Futuristic Sex Robotz, it's free legal music, I swear).

[Bucko]

Geez,
I remember when I used to put a cassette in my boom box, then press record and tape the songs I wanted off the radio for free!

[AJ@PR]

DRM will always fail as long as the receptor, and the hacker, are one and the same person.

DRM is good for ****loads of things.
****loads.
Companies with AutoCAD plans wanting to keep them tight.
Project schedules.
Works' Assesements.

Where DRM is definitely headed afterburner-speed to failure is in the music and movie industry, IMHO.


Geez,
I remember when I used to put a cassette in my boom box, then press record and tape the songs I wanted off the radio for free!

There was a time when radio stations would give you advanced notice of XXX album, is going to play in 30 minutes...

Then, XXX album, is going to play in 5 minutes...

Finally, XXX will start in 10... 9... 8...

No kiddin'.

[nil8]

Security isn't designed to keep people out. It's designed to make it just frustrating enough for the layperson to give up.

There will always be people with the skills and the drive to break any security that exists. These people are the front of the wave, they drive security companies to work harder and create better options.

DRM exists, drm gets cracked, it gets spread throughout the communities online how to crack it, a new solution is offered. It's the way of computer security.

DRM is a visible annoyance and detracts from ease of use and creates problems for many users who try to do something outside of what the software is designed for. That's a flexibility issue, and that creates major issues with people paying for this media.

The one thing I think we can all agree on is that using the net for media isn't going away.

As for the radio album thing, find your local student college radio station during finals. You'll hear an entire CD, 5 minutes of talk, another cd, 5 minutes of talk, etc.

One of my favorite bands was introduced to me this way. I've bought their music and listened to them regularly after I heard an entire CD. Good litmus test to see if it's worth sinking 15 bucks for an hour of music.

[intergalacticman]

yeah true true to you all, but i strongly think that products such as blu ray are ridiculous since they try to monopolize their industry(which is illegal) and force you to pay more for multiple licenses. (but dont we pay for each copy of a book?) the intangibility of music and video means it is difficult to control and more enticing to copy for free, but come on, who would pass up free music?

[luciusad2004]

but come on, who would pass up free music?

I would. Im not saying that i have never downloaded music, but ive come to the realization that downloading music IS stealing. I cant understand why anyone who claims to really like a band or artist, would consistantly rip of their music.

My gf likes to tell me that she is to poor to buy music to wich i would say... im to poor to aford a ferarri but you dont see me stealing one.

Just because the door is unlocked and the keys are in the ignition doesnt make it right to take it.

The only time i would ever download free music is if the artist expicitly states that they dont care.

[Aero]

yeah true true to you all, but i strongly think that products such as blu ray are ridiculous since they try to monopolize their industry(which is illegal) and force you to pay more for multiple licenses. (but dont we pay for each copy of a book?) the intangibility of music and video means it is difficult to control and more enticing to copy for free, but come on, who would pass up free music?

its not illegal for a monopoly to exist if it is due to a company createing a new industry or if they have made advances that allow them to make a product cheaper than other companies. Its called a natural monopoly, perfectly legal. Its illegal for the to try and run other companies out of business on purpose (ie, lowering prices, then later rasising prices after a competitor goes out of business).

Multiple liscense's is just another way to make sure that the programers/creators are paid for their hard work.

[AJ@PR]

yeah true true to you all,
???


but i strongly think that products such as blu ray are ridiculous since they try to monopolize their industry(which is illegal)
BluRay is an evolution of data storage technology.
Majority backer is Sony, which, IMHO, is headed down the drain.
They're not trying to monopolize their industry... um, no.


(which is illegal)
Wait wait... but...

who would pass up free music?
Double standards.


and force you to pay more for multiple licenses.
Nah... nobody forces you to do anything.
You decide what to do.
If that's bending over and buying the same freaking movie 3 times in different formats, well, that's your decision.


(but dont we pay for each copy of a book?)
Books and digital content = apples and oranges.
Books, cost money to reproduce and get onto your hands.
An mp3 is as easily and cheaply copied one, or 1,000 times.



the intangibility of music and video means it is difficult to control and more enticing to copy for free
Not "intangibility" I would think, but rather, "digitalization" of them.



who would pass up free music?
I dunno know about you, but if somebody gives me a Fiona Apple CD, I'd throw it out the window at 100 MPH.

[Bucko]

but come on, who would pass up free music?

I do. I buy all my CD's. I like the extra info in the covers, plus having them looks cool. I have over 300 CD's here.

[nil8]

I dunno know about you, but if somebody gives me a Fiona Apple CD, I'd throw it out the window at 100 MPH.

Best argument ever. rep+ for just that.

[intergalacticman]

???

i was just trying to say i heard and understood the other opinions



BluRay is an evolution of data storage technology.
Majority backer is Sony, which, IMHO, is headed down the drain.
They're not trying to monopolize their industry... um, no.

Wait wait... but...


while Blu Ray is an evolved form of the DVD, sponsored largely by sony,
they have partnered with a huge amount of the largest manufacturers and
studios such as panasonic, Disney, samsung, fox , warner bros. , Toshiba , Intel , Microsoft, ibm. not to mention sony
therefore creating a virtual monopoly


Nah... nobody forces you to do anything.
You decide what to do.
If that's bending over and buying the same freaking movie 3 times in different formats, well, that's your decision.


actually in the case of Microsoft, their partnership with the vast majority of computer manufacturers causes the average consumer to buy Microsoft products. thus forcing one into buying liscences



Books and digital content = apples and oranges.
Books, cost money to reproduce and get onto your hands.
An mp3 is as easily and cheaply copied one, or 1,000 times.

yes but books are copyrighted they are made by a dedicated author
just because mp3's (or other formats) are easily copied, does not mean that the artist did not put the same effort into them ( ps: Ebooks are easily copied too)




Not "intangibility" I would think, but rather, "digitalization" of them.


aren't digitized things intangible??? :think:



I dunno know about you, but if somebody gives me a Fiona Apple CD, I'd throw it out the window at 100 MPH.

wtf? i think you clearly know what I mean :neutral:

Im not trying to be mean here but relax guys/girls:redface:

[AJ@PR]

Im not trying to be mean here but relax guys/girls:redface:

All I have to say is that I commend you on sticking to your guns. :)

Cool discussion.

I still stand by my Fiona Apple statement though.

[Aero]

actually in the case of Microsoft, their partnership with the vast majority of computer manufacturers causes the average consumer to buy Microsoft products. thus forcing one into buying liscences

Only if you want the "in" crowd to think your cool. You could build your own system and run linux to replace the Windows OS. Or if you already have windows and want to replace other microsoft software:

IE Replacements:

Firefox
Mozilla Suite
Opera

MS Office replacement:

OpenOffice.org



yes but books are copyrighted they are made by a dedicated author
just because mp3's (or other formats) are easily copied, does not mean that the artist did not put the same effort into them ( ps: Ebooks are easily copied too)

Either way, its wrong and the crteators diserve money for their content.


while Blu Ray is an evolved form of the DVD, sponsored largely by sony,
they have partnered with a huge amount of the largest manufacturers and
studios such as panasonic, Disney, samsung, fox , warner bros. , Toshiba , Intel , Microsoft, ibm. not to mention sony
therefore creating a virtual monopoly

Isn't toshiba backing HD-DVD. But anyway, why did all the large companies choose Blueray over HD-DVD? Blueray offers more versitality (and several more DRM options over HD-DVD..isn't that nice how that worked out;))

[luciusad2004]

while Blu Ray is an evolved form of the DVD, sponsored largely by sony,
they have partnered with a huge amount of the largest manufacturers and
studios such as panasonic, Disney, samsung, fox , warner bros. , Toshiba , Intel , Microsoft, ibm. not to mention sony
therefore creating a virtual monopoly


I don't think that gives the creators of blue ray a monopoly. Thats like saying that whoever created the DVD has a monopoly on the video market. The fact that Sony has partnered with all these companies just means that these companies support blue ray and are trying to bring it to market.

In all honesty I would LOVE to see one single disk format for videos. No more tying to figure out wich disk format is right for me. Or hoping that i will still be able to play my collection in a couple of years. One single format makes it easier on the consumer even if it does create a "monopoly."

[nil8]

http://preview.baens-universe.com/articles/salvos6

I found this article via slashdot and it is one of the better arguments against DRM. Well worth a read.

[Indybird]

On the note of DRM, I gotta say I think its a pretty stupid idea. However, Ive never had any problems with it. I get most of my music from CDs and every once in a while I get music from CENSORED (you know what im talking about). I turn off DRM on windows media player, since it is just an option in the menu.Also, when I get music from my friend's iTunes I simply use Nero 7 to convert it to .wmv files (and all of his songs are protected). Once they're converted I dont have any problems.

Also, does anyone have a problem with HDCP yet? HDCP stands for High-Bandwidth Digital Content Protection which is, you guessed it, a form of DRM. This is the killer: my friend just bought a 42" samsung plasma TV. He thought "now that I have an HDTV and a Xbox 360, why not get an HD-DVD player?" So he goes out, spends $200 on a HD-DVD player, hooks it up, plays the sample HD-DVD and guess what? It won't run in HD. So he looks in the manual and finds out you're TV has to be HDCP compatible (which his brand-new one wasnt). He was pissed. And it got me pissed because I hate DRM. If you want blu-ray or HDDVD on you're PC, then you need an HDCP monitor, an HDCP graphics card and an HDCP media player. The only reason they're doing this is to prevent people from recording HD content.

The funny thing is I've already seen tutorials on how to make a like adapter you add on to your HDMI or DVI cable which has one HDCP-protected input but a non protected output. This convinces the device that it is being connected to an HDCP TV but it actually isnt.8)

Sorry I talked so long but this is one of those issues that makes me mad.

[luciusad2004]

On the note of DRM, I gotta say I think its a pretty stupid idea. However, Ive never had any problems with it. I get most of my music from CDs and every once in a while I get music from CENSORED (you know what im talking about). I turn off DRM on windows media player, since it is just an option in the menu.Also, when I get music from my friend's iTunes I simply use Nero 7 to convert it to .wmv files (and all of his songs are protected). Once they're converted I dont have any problems.

Also, does anyone have a problem with HDCP yet? HDCP stands for High-Bandwidth Digital Content Protection which is, you guessed it, a form of DRM. This is the killer: my friend just bought a 42" samsung plasma TV. He thought "now that I have an HDTV and a Xbox 360, why not get an HD-DVD player?" So he goes out, spends $200 on a HD-DVD player, hooks it up, plays the sample HD-DVD and guess what? It won't run in HD. So he looks in the manual and finds out you're TV has to be HDCP compatible (which his brand-new one wasnt). He was pissed. And it got me pissed because I hate DRM. If you want blu-ray or HDDVD on you're PC, then you need an HDCP monitor, an HDCP graphics card and an HDCP media player. The only reason they're doing this is to prevent people from recording HD content.

The funny thing is I've already seen tutorials on how to make a like adapter you add on to your HDMI or DVI cable which has one HDCP-protected input but a non protected output. This convinces the device that it is being connected to an HDCP TV but it actually isnt.8)

Sorry I talked so long but this is one of those issues that makes me mad.

That is one of the instances were, ever though i don't really have a problem with drm at the moment, i think it is starting to get out of hand. That just screws over the customer. I don't see how that can be justified. We shouldn't be forced to have to purchase a new television just to do what the original was meant to do in the first place. I don't see how this can be legal, but then again the government IS more concerned about the consumer ripping big business off then big business ripping of the consumer.

I guess you could say i don't have a problem with DRM until the consumer gets shafted.

[DaveW]

All I have to say is that I commend you on sticking to your guns.

Cool discussion.

That's a guy who knows how to debate. +Rep for both intergallacticman and AJ@PR for pulling out some interesting issues and keeping this debate (relatively) above board. ;)

-Dave

[intergalacticman]

I still stand by my Fiona Apple statement though.

hahaha

i feel exhausted trying to debate this so im going to not post anything as not to get anyone further riled up
this is kind of one of those "extremely difficult to solve" issues where no one wants to compromise. (think israel vs palestine")

[Exley]

Also, does anyone have a problem with HDCP yet? HDCP stands for High-Bandwidth Digital Content Protection which is, you guessed it, a form of DRM. This is the killer: my friend just bought a 42" samsung plasma TV. He thought "now that I have an HDTV and a Xbox 360, why not get an HD-DVD player?" So he goes out, spends $200 on a HD-DVD player, hooks it up, plays the sample HD-DVD and guess what? It won't run in HD. So he looks in the manual and finds out you're TV has to be HDCP compatible (which his brand-new one wasnt). He was pissed. And it got me pissed because I hate DRM. If you want blu-ray or HDDVD on you're PC, then you need an HDCP monitor, an HDCP graphics card and an HDCP media player. The only reason they're doing this is to prevent people from recording HD content.

so if my family ever decides to purchase an HD-DVD/blu-ray player we wouldn't be able to use it on our brand-spanking-new plasma TV?!

if thats true someone is getting a blu-ray player put where the sun don't shine

EDIT: phew looks like my family's tv is compatible i almost cried there. sorry to hear about your friends experience ill hit somebody for him.

[Indybird]

so if my family ever decides to purchase an HD-DVD/blu-ray player we wouldn't be able to use it on our brand-spanking-new plasma TV?!

if thats true someone is getting a blu-ray player put where the sun don't shine

EDIT: phew looks like my family's tv is compatible i almost cried there. sorry to hear about your friends experience ill hit somebody for him.

umm...thanx? :rolleyes:

I didn't mean to imply that all new-HDTVs won't be compatible, its just (approximately) only a quarter of them are HDCP compatible. However, almost all major-brand PC monitors that can handle HD are now HDCP and likewise with the higher end graphics cards

[luciusad2004]

I willing to bet that there will, with out a doubt, be adapter kits for those of us that don't have the money to upgrade.

I also like to think that if the legality of these devices was ever questioned, the courts would rule in favor of them despite the DMCA. There is a big difference between cracking dvd encryption to make backups and using some sort of adapter to get around HDCP when you have no other way of accessing the content. But then again that could just be wishful thinking.

[armadilloben]

???
I dunno know about you, but if somebody gives me a Fiona Apple CD, I'd throw it out the window at 100 MPH. change the mph to mbps:D

[Indybird]

My opinion on downloading music not legally is: unless the artist is new and trying to get into the music business, they probably have alot of money and losing 5000 paying customers because of Lime$%#^ isn't going to hurt their profits too much.

I am all for software protection though, software is usually more expensive and took more time to make. Its annoying but I don't have a problem with CD-Keys, forced-registrations and other protection things. However, when it comes to copying games I think game discs should be copyable, but the game won't run unless it is on the disc (so it can't be distributed thru lime%#&^)

Thats what I have to say...

[Zephik]

My opinion on downloading music not legally is: unless the artist is new and trying to get into the music business, they probably have alot of money and losing 5000 paying customers because of Lime$%#^ isn't going to hurt their profits too much.

I am all for software protection though, software is usually more expensive and took more time to make. Its annoying but I don't have a problem with CD-Keys, forced-registrations and other protection things. However, when it comes to copying games I think game discs should be copyable, but the game won't run unless it is on the disc (so it can't be distributed thru lime%#&^)

Thats what I have to say...

This is my opinion on downloading music. If its copyrighted, then its wrong. It's wrong because it's stealing. Stealing is wrong. But we all know I still do it, so why then? Why do I do it if its wrong? Well...

I think that "musicians" get paid too much. They shouldn't get to live in Beverly Hills and own nice houses with sweet cars (not all of them) just because they can sing well. So while some people work hard their entire lives just to be "middle class", the naturally gifted who "say" they work hard get the high life. But then again, nobody said life was fair.

Oh wait, what was that last line? Well in that case...

Is it fair that we steal what they work for? Nope. Is it fair that they get paid more than the average joe because they can sing well? Nope. Life just isn't fair, tough, deal with it. ...lol you know, I would love to get slap that in the face of the music industry.

Oh yeah, btw, the law is law. So don't download copyrighted... Anything. It's still stealing no matter how you look at it.

[nil8]

I am all for software protection though, software is usually more expensive and took more time to make. Its annoying but I don't have a problem with CD-Keys, forced-registrations and other protection things. However, when it comes to copying games I think game discs should be copyable, but the game won't run unless it is on the disc (so it can't be distributed thru lime%#&^)


Software development does take a long time.
CDKeys have been easy to get around for years.
Forced registration can be stopped with a patched executable or a firewall.
Most companies that are worried about piracy use a program called Securom. It won't allow the exe file to load without a hash check on the cd/dvd securom program. While you're in game it will also check at set intervals.

The problem with this comes around when the software hiccups, and it does. People who pay good money for a game can't play because of securom issues. This is the dilemma. If you don't put security software on your game, it can be stolen quickly and easily.
If you do, it can cause problems within your legitimate customer base.
For anyone who got Neverwinter Nights 2, around 10% of the legit copies had issues with securom until the 1.2 patch.
When you're talking millions of people who shelled out 50 bucks for a game that won't run, that's a major marketing disaster.

On top of that, there are crackers who know how to work around any protection. It is once again an issue of making it difficult for the normal person, not the crackers or distro groups.

As for the base issue of stealing, people need to stop being so damned puritanical about it. People do illegal things. Breaking the law, as long as it isn't enforced, doesn't mean anything. Police have more important issues like violent crime, theft and drugs. For most law enforcement officials, internet piracy is right up there with jaywalking.

This is why companies like the MPAA, RIAA and DMCA are suing. They have no other course of action. Any time they have approached law enforcement about this issue, they get told no because it's a minor issue.

Not all musicians live in Beverly Hills or own a mint. A lot of them are living middle class. That's not the image they portray because it looks bad being a big star and living in a normal suburban home with a wife and 2 kids.

Musicians work hard too. They are professionals in a sense. They have skills that most people don't possess. That's why they get paid a set amount based on their skills, just like everyone else.

The idea of downloading digital media off the internet isn't going anywhere. Children are being raised around this concept and it will be the new distribution media for the next generation as well as the adapted medium for my generation. Companies need to figure out a way to secure their intellectual property without making silly demands on hardware manufacturers, the legal system, suing children, etc

It's all about modifying the way business works, and so far, the media giants have been dumbstruck and it's showing.