Most Hated Family in America

[Zephik]

http://www.markcrosby.co.uk/blog/archives/23

http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/uk_news/magazine/6507971.stm

They are a pretty good family outside of what they are doing. Sort of like the picture perfect family. Pff, so what. I don't care how "perfect" they seem. What they are doing is so disgustingly wrong. Especially their leader dude, gramps was it?

"He was a very verbal, very persuasive, an extremely compelling speaker."

Heh, reminds me of Hitler.

Anyways, probably old news. I'm just a lil slow to the draw sometimes.

**Found this on digg...


@HunterTV

I know almost all of the Personally, I went to school with all them. They're very normal people. Get them behind a picket sign and it's a different story, but for the most part, they're all very normal and nice.

I didn't read the whole article, I kind of skimmed it, but I don't know if they touched on the family members who have basically disassociated themselves with the family. FIrst, Fred Phelps (Gramps) did have a gay son. He would never admit that though. One of his grandchildren, Jason, was a year older than me and we knew eachother pretty well. He just recently escaped the grasp of his family, and I think is living with his girlfriend. Another one of Fred's sons lives in Canada and has always spoke out against his father.

Another interesting thing is how the Topeka handles the Phelps family. Our Mayor, Bill Bunten, writes a personal letter to the mayor of every city that the Phelps picket (the funerals, not sure about the homosexual things) and apologizes for how they act and states that our community doesn't condone their actions.

To sum it up, they're not all hate all the time, and for the most part they're all rather normal people. With that said, I don't agree with what they do and they're message of a hateful God.

HELLO! It all makes sense now...

[.Maleficus.]

This disgusts me. I've seen stuff about these losers before, and it makes me want to scream. I'm not gay, but I have no problem with gay people. They are just as nice of people as any straight person I know. And if they hate America so much, they should get the **** out of here and leave us normal people alone. Or better yet, they could do one better and just drive off of a cliff.

[Ichbin]

/sigh.... thats all i can say.

[DaveW]

edit: I hope all of you non-american members of this site, realize that we Americans are not all like this. I also hope that you don't believe all of the stereotypes put forth to you by others about us. I certainly do not believe the stereotypes that I hear about other countries.

Don't worry about that. Every country has their crazies.

-Dave

[AJ@PR]

I saw... don't remember where...

This group of bikers, many veterans, get together, and they follow this family around.

Then, when the family starts screaming their crap and stuff, the bikers roar their motorcycles.

In soldiers' funerals, the bikers do a human barrier between this dumbass family and the grieving families of our heroes.

Shame on them...

I once read, don't remember who said it (and paraphrased):::
I don't agree with your point of view... but I'll fight till the end to defend your right to express it.

[Airbozo]

I personally attribute their actions to a totally screwed up interpretation of religion based on the actions of the "Grandfather". Religious fanatics don't just wear turbins...

Also Free speech != hate speech. There are responsibilities that go along with the rights granted in this country, too bad they are never spoken of. Just like screaming "fire" in a theatre can get you arrested and thrown in jail. Same with spouting hate speech that incites a riot can get you the same punishment.

That said, yes, I agree with the free speech rights granted these lunatics. (same goes for the KKK, White Supremacists, JAL, Black panthers, etc...) They should just have a little more compassion for the families (last time I checked, the bible taught compassion) of these service men. If they truly want to protest the war, based on their beliefs, they should be standing outside of the whitehouse, screaming their hate to the president...

[intergalacticman]

why do we care what they do?
as long as they aren't harming anyone it isn't our business to freaking debate their lives

[Airbozo]

why do we care what they do?
as long as they aren't harming anyone it isn't our business to freaking debate their lives

We care because of the effect on the families.

That is the point. By attending the funerals of slain soldiers, screaming hatefull things at the families of those soldiers IS harming someone. Maybe no "physical" harm is coming to the family, but the emotional pain is still there and valid.

Why do we debate anything that does not directly affect us?

If you don't care, don't open the thread or chime in. Very simple.

[DaveW]

why do we care what they do?
as long as they aren't harming anyone it isn't our business to freaking debate their lives

I think that's a rather flippant view of the problem. Everything they do is an affront to human progress, an insult to everything humans have ever achieved. It's so very easy to stand up and say "Free speech, they can do what they want, what business is it of ours?"

Where do you draw the line? Free speech shouldn't be abused like this; anyone who turns up to a soldier's funeral (someone who fought and died to defend these people) for the sole purpose of causing trouble doesn't deserve freedom of speech.

Use responsibly, as they say. Of course, you may disagree; perhaps you think these people have a right to do whatever they want. But what happens to that family's right to bury their son, father, friend, brother in peace? You're free to talk but they're forcing people to listen, which is a different kettle of fish altogether.

-Dave

[Airbozo]

.... they're forcing people to listen, which is a different kettle of fish altogether.

-Dave

This is spot on!

Back to the rights vs responsibilities issue.

[Spacehonkey]

I saw... don't remember where...

This group of bikers, many veterans, get together, and they follow this family around.

Then, when the family starts screaming their crap and stuff, the bikers roar their motorcycles.

In soldiers' funerals, the bikers do a human barrier between this dumbass family and the grieving families of our heroes.

Shame on them...

I once read, don't remember who said it (and paraphrased):::
I don't agree with your point of view... but I'll fight till the end to defend your right to express it.

The biker group is called "Patriot Guard Riders", here is their link http://www.patriotguard.org/ and they do stand between the protesters and the church/grieving family to block the site of them. I know this first hand because they provided their services at a funeral of one of my falling officers about a month ago. I’m not sure about roaring their engines because due to the laws of the state that the funeral was before in the protesters couldn’t be within so many miles of the service so their was no need to but the Patriots were there in full force if they were needed. The grieving family was pleased with the Patriots attendance. The Patriots are a proud group of people willing to do this in order to protect the grieving family from being exposed to such hatred at a time of their great loss.

[Zephik]

The Patriot Guard Riders is a diverse amalgamation of riders from across the nation. We have one thing in common besides motorcycles. We have an unwavering respect for those who risk their very lives for America’s freedom and security. If you share this respect, please join us.

We don’t care what you ride or if you ride, what your political views are, or whether you’re a hawk or a dove. It is not a requirement that you be a veteran. It doesn't matter where you’re from or what your income is; you don’t even have to ride. The only prerequisite is Respect.

Our main mission is to attend the funeral services of fallen American heroes as invited guests of the family. Each mission we undertake has two basic objectives.

1. Show our sincere respect for our fallen heroes, their families, and their communities.
2. Shield the mourning family and their friends from interruptions created by any protestor or group of protesters.

We accomplish the latter through strictly legal and non-violent means.
To those of you who are currently serving and fighting for the freedoms of others, at home and abroad, please know that we are backing you. We honor and support you with every mission we carry out, and we are praying for a safe return home for all.


These guys kick @$$.

[ReverendBob]

/agree with Dave.

Just because someone has the right to say whatever they wish (and I support this right completely) does NOT mean they have the right to force others to listen.

I support free speech in all of its forms, but only insofar as the speaker does not attempt to hold people hostage to his/her words.

IMO, free speech should be limited to environs where a potential audience has the ability to conveiniently remove themselves from the area.

1. Street corners........that's fine.

2. My front porch.........fine again. I can always close the door, and if you're too annoying, call the cops for trespassing.

3. A city bus.......Nope. Obviously, it would not be altogether that easy for an 80 year old person to get off the bus and walk 18 blocks.

4. A funeral.......Nope. Obviously, it is relatively impossible for the atendees to remove themselves from their activity.

5. Flipside A wedding.........Nope......see above.

We have laws regarding unlawful physical detentions, why not verbal ones?

Cops don't have to be dicks about it, they could warn the speaker.......once.....to move their location.

Then get the rubber hoses.

[Canadian Eh?]

edit: I hope all of you non-american members of this site, realize that we Americans are not all like this. I also hope that you don't believe all of the stereotypes put forth to you by others about us. I certainly do not believe the stereotypes that I hear about other countries.

Don't Worry, Us Canadians (Newfoundlanders specificly) have bad stereotypes too! But i don't believe in stereotypes. That family is a buch of ****ing Jack***es! They should be trapped in a cage or at least lose their right to talk in public! I hate them and all people like them!

[AJ@PR]

I hate them and all people like them!
Make it... "disdain" them.


Fear is the path to the dark side. Fear leads to anger. Anger leads to hate. Hate leads to suffering.

[Spacehonkey]

Not only is Yoda a wise jedi but he also has some moves.:eek:
http://www.buzzhumour.com/videos/2171/Yoda_Dancing

Thought I would light the mood in here a bit.:p

[CanaBalistic]

Man, whats with you all. Your all for fredom of speach but as long as it has limitations? WTF..

Sure, what thoes people are doing seems wrong to some. Has anyone actually listened to what they are saying? What they are saying has some truth to it. How they go about relaying that message is where they become **** ups.

I say SGTM should round up a bunch of marines and go to thier house in full army atire, hog tie em like they do with insugents, and ship em off to iraq. Let them go tell there message to the iraqies while they bury there dead soldiers. Bring them home in a month assuming they survive and ask them if they'd like to continue with there foolish behavior.

[AJ@PR]

Has anyone actually listened to what they are saying? What they are saying has some truth to it.
When I saw that the low-lifes go to the funerals of dead soldiers, to make their protests, I stopped caring.

I don't care if it has some truth to it.
You don't do that.

It's interesting what you say about freedom of speech.

Definitely, we should be free to say as we want.
Express what we want.

The problem lies when what you want, starts infringing on another's personal space. There, if you can't handle your self, yeah... I see it good that you get a Trial Version of that Freedom of Speech thingy.

MY 0.02 Cana... looking forward to some intelligent discussion. :)

[.Maleficus.]

I fail to see where any of what they say has truth. Quote maybe? Would be helpful.

And I'm not sure if I misunderstood the last part, but the way I read it sounded like you were saying that Marines just hog-tie insurgents. If that has anything to do with that lady who tied of prisoners and took nude pictures of them (though I'm not sure she was a Marine), then your views on the Marines are very poor, and I'm sorry that's what you think of them. If you meant it in a way that wasn't badmouthing the Marines, then I'm sorry I brought it up. I agree they should be sent to Iraq, not even to work with the military or anything. Just get some first hand experience of what it's like over there. Watch a car bomb go off. See if they can handle the sight of body parts flying through the air, families devastated by a loss in the family, someone critically wounded... I want to see what they say about that. Once they have some knowledge on what they speak about, I'll listen more.

[Ironcat]

Fortunately... or unfortunately, freedom of speech has to be complete or it is not freedom.

The "defend to the death your right to say it" line has usually always been attributed to Voltaire but the original quote it has been paraphased from is not complete so we don't REALLY know.

The problem is that everyone has a line they won't cross with regards to how far individual freedom goes.

Should we be able to own a gun? Some say yes, some say no, some say depends. Now ask the people that said yes, Should we be able to own a fully automatic machine gun? Some of those people will change their minds, others say that owning a BAR is no different than owning a.38.

What about N.A.M.B.L.A. Their entire organization is based upon grown men having sex with young boys. Their motto is “Eight is too late”. Perverts? Yup. Sickos? Undoubtedly, but slander them and watch and how hard the ACLU comes down on your ass.

I have had this discussion many times with my friends and even my kids. Here's how I always sum it up.
1. " As a patriotic American I will stand by and defend you while you burn an American flag at Arlington cemetery."
2. " Then I am gonna wreck your ass."

[Airbozo]

Man, whats with you all. Your all for fredom of speach but as long as it has limitations? WTF..

.......................

It's not necessarily about limitations, rather _responsibilities_.

Like I posted earlier, is it freedom of speech to yell fire in crowded theatre? And if you do yell fire and people get trampled to death, who's fault is it? The people that trampled them? Or the person that yelled fire? (Yes you do have the "freedom" to yell whatever you want, but you must take into account the "rights" of others as well) People have the right NOT to die due to someone else's stupidity.

I have the right to NOT hear the hate that comes out of their mouth, so if I can walk away from their "speech" then It is my responsibility to walk away if I do not want to hear it. If I do not have the ability to walk away, it is the other persons responsibility to NOT violate my rights...

[Airbozo]

Fortunately... or unfortunately, freedom of speech has to be complete or it is not freedom.

Well put.
This freedom does assume that people have the brains to know when/where that line is. Once you cross that line you are stepping out of the freedom issue by trampling the rights of others. Your right to free speech does not trump my rights, ever. This is what society must understand. These people do not understand that.
.........................................
I have had this discussion many times with my friends and even my kids. Here's how I always sum it up.
1. " As a patriotic American I will stand by and defend you while you burn an American flag at Arlington cemetery."
2. " Then I am gonna wreck your ass."

#2 needs some work.

While I do agree that freedom of speech does include certain "actions" and the action of burning an American flag can be interpreted as "speech", The action of "wrecking" someones ass can not, and as such I would expect a jail term for assault. That being said, I return to my "yelling fire in a theatre" comment. Rushing into a crowd of Marines returning from duty, and torching an American flag would most assuredly start a riot whose outcome would probably end with the beating of said burner. Is that in fact free speech or inciting a riot (which is illegal)?

[Spacehonkey]

... If that has anything to do with that lady who tied of prisoners and took nude pictures of them (though I'm not sure she was a Marine), ....

You are talking about the Army soldiers not the Marines but I'm not saying we're innocent either.


Man, whats with you all. Your all for fredom of speach but as long as it has limitations? WTF.

Remember there is no such thing as being completely free. In order for someone to be or receive something free someone else will have to pay the price. Even though I completely disagree with what the protesters are saying I'll still fight for the right for them to say it even if I die in the process and they turn around and spit on my grave. I just wish they had the decency to do it in an appropriate manner like ReverendBob stated in his post. We should have the FREEDOM to listen to what they are saying not have it forced on us. Where is the FREEDOM in that?

[jdbnsn]

I lived in Topeka from the 3rd grade until 2004, have known about the Phelps since long before they were known nation/worldwide for their antics. I have actually worked with two of his kids before at various jobs and have seen them standing along the streets for the better part of a decade. I am not aware of any truth to their claims, most of what they express is quote "God hates ______", you can fill in the blank with many groups but mostly homosexuals are mentioned on their picket signs. What this family has done is make a business out of provokation (sp?). They are mostly all lawyers (the church is more of a front for legal tax evasion, no one except cult members are allowed un officially of course). When it comes down to it, this is not a freedom of speech issue, it's a harassment issue that they have skillfully evaded litigation over. In reality, the word freedom is abstract anyway. There is no such thing as tangible freedom. You are not free to speak lies in the court of law=purjury your language is not free from restrictions during war-time (not so much as in the past) =treason The FCC restricts what can be said/seen on public television=profane. These folks are very careful not to break any official laws when they do what they do, so it is legal. Everyone already knows it's wrong and stupid, there shouldn't even be a discussion about that it's so obvious. The question that has been on the minds of many Topekans for years is if someone snaps and kills one of them (which most cannot believe hasn't happened yet), will it be ruled as justifiable homicide? The answer is no, it's never ok to hurt another human being according to our laws unless either 1) you could have done nothing else to save your's or another victim's life or 2) you are a state which practices the death penalty.

[CanaBalistic]

Humm.. intresting...

#1, I'd like to see them get sent to iraq. I've got nothing against the armed forces.

#2, What they are talking about or "protesting" is all in the bible... homosexuals, ect...

#3, Yelling FIRE: If an innocent person gets caught by cross fire while in a millitary operation. Who's fault is it? The person with the gun? The person who gave the order to fire? The general who sent the man there? or the president who started the war?

If i seen somone get trampled to death in a theartor, Regardless of why everyone was running. The blame goes to thoes who trampled the victim. Youre supposed to exit in an orderly fashion. Didnt you have fire drills in school?

[Drum Thumper]

I lived in Topeka from the 3rd grade until 2004, have known about the Phelps since long before they were known nation/worldwide for their antics. I have actually worked with two of his kids before at various jobs and have seen them standing along the streets for the better part of a decade. I am not aware of any truth to their claims, most of what they express is quote "God hates ______", you can fill in the blank with many groups but mostly homosexuals are mentioned on their picket signs. What this family has done is make a business out of provokation (sp?). They are mostly all lawyers (the church is more of a front for legal tax evasion, no one except cult members are allowed un officially of course). When it comes down to it, this is not a freedom of speech issue, it's a harassment issue that they have skillfully evaded litigation over. In reality, the word freedom is abstract anyway. There is no such thing as tangible freedom. You are not free to speak lies in the court of law=purjury your language is not free from restrictions during war-time (not so much as in the past) =treason The FCC restricts what can be said/seen on public television=profane. These folks are very careful not to break any official laws when they do what they do, so it is legal. Everyone already knows it's wrong and stupid, there shouldn't even be a discussion about that it's so obvious. The question that has been on the minds of many Topekans for years is if someone snaps and kills one of them (which most cannot believe hasn't happened yet), will it be ruled as justifiable homicide? The answer is no, it's never ok to hurt another human being according to our laws unless either 1) you could have done nothing else to save your's or another victim's life or 2) you are a state which practices the death penalty.

Man, if I could digg this, I would.

[Airbozo]

Humm.. intresting...

#1, I'd like to see them get sent to iraq. I've got nothing against the armed forces.

#2, What they are talking about or "protesting" is all in the bible... homosexuals, ect...
The point being?

#3, Yelling FIRE: If an innocent person gets caught by cross fire while in a millitary operation. Who's fault is it? The person with the gun? The person who gave the order to fire? The general who sent the man there? or the president who started the war?

This really depends on who has knowledge of innocents in the line of fire. Obviously the president is not there and would not know, the general _may_ not be there so that depends, and even the person who fired the bullet that killed the innocent may not know any innocents are in the line of fire, and he was just following orders right? Check out the court cases related to Pat Tillman for more on this. All members of his unit were acquitted of any charges, including the person who fired the bullet that killed him. (I do not know all of the specifics of that case so I do not know how the determination was made, I only know it is not good enough for the family)

If i seen somone get trampled to death in a theartor, Regardless of why everyone was running. The blame goes to thoes who trampled the victim. Youre supposed to exit in an orderly fashion. Didnt you have fire drills in school?

Well according to the laws in the US (and probably other countries as well), the blame goes to the person that started the chaos (unless there is absolute proof that an individual trampled someone else on purpose). Remember the fire in a NJ club many years ago started by pyrotechnics used by the promoter, the promoter was held responsible for all the deaths, since there would not have been anyone trampled unless there was a fire that he caused.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Shouting_fire_in_a_crowded_theater

EDIT: BTW: I have not had the misfortune to be in a situation where my life depended on reaching an exit, but rest assured, I would do _almost_ everything in my power to _reach_ that exit. I can not say how my mind or body would react to a life threatening situation like that, and I would wager none of you could either.

[CanaBalistic]

I was just using the cross fire thing as an example. Dont play pass the buck.

In your recent example, you argue that the blame goes to he who started the chaos. Which i feel is out of context to your earlier post. If there really was a fire and someone yelled fire and the result was a person getting trampled to death. The blame would go to he who started the fire. Not the person who made it aware to everyone in the vacinity.

Which i would hope would be the same even in a situation where there wasnt an actual fire.

I know your going to rebuttle.

What if there was a small blaze that didnt pose a threat to life: inside a cinema. A person who whitnessed it didnt realize it was containable and yelled fire. As the patrons are alerted, they start to stampeed. A man gets stomp'd to death by the mob of people.

Does the blame still then go to the person who alerted the crowd? Or does the blame go to the crowd who actually steped on the man?

[Ironcat]

While I do agree that freedom of speech does include certain "actions" and the action of burning an American flag can be interpreted as "speech", The action of "wrecking" someones ass can not, and as such I would expect a jail term for assault.

I guess I didn't post it but I would absolutely expect to be arrested and jailed for "wrecking someone's ass" but it's a price I'd be willing to pay.

[.Maleficus.]

I guess I didn't post it but I would absolutely expect to be arrested and jailed for "wrecking someone's ass" but it's a price I'd be willing to pay.
What? I just read it. Anyways, if you don't even remember posting it, I doubt it was meant in a serious way. Like when I say to my friends I'll kick their ass, I don't mean it. And if you say you'll wreck your kids asses to them, well, I'm no counselor but...

And I have to agree with Airbozo. Who cares if what they say is in the Bible? They can keep their close-minded rants to themselves.

And I'm not sure what this whole fire in a theater thing has to do with anything (I didn't read a few posts) but I don't think anyone would be at fault. If there is a fire, your first reaction is to yell "FIRE", for your safety and others. And I mean, how are people to know whether it is safe and easily containable. If I was in a theater and there was a fire, I'd **** my pants and scream like a baby, then run as fast as I can.

[Crimson Sky]

The owner of this website is 110% in support of the PGR.

[Drum Thumper]

Does the blame still then go to the person who alerted the crowd? Or does the blame go to the crowd who actually steped on the man?

Sadly, in this day and age, the blame would go to owner of the building most likely, incorrectly placed there by the person who alerted everyone to the presence of fire and lack of closeby fire extinguishers, even though the owner of the building is up to his/her locality's fire codes.

And like Crimson, I too am in 110% support of the PGR. This so called church showed up in Montana a few months ago to protest at the funeral of Senator Max Baucus's nephew, and had the opportunity to make a repeat performance when another one of Montana's sons died in the line of fire in Iraq a couple months later. Surprisingly, they didn't show up. I think either the locals put the fear of God into them or it just wasn't a high enough profile of a death.

Or a mixture of both. We're a crazy bunch here in Montana.

[intergalacticman]

i guess i take back what i said earlier; im not condoning their actions, but on a strictly legal standpoint, aren't their actions legal?

im sure this issue wreaks havoc on their reputation and i certainly don't have any respect for them. and that patriot riders thing looks sweet( why are they loved but the minutemen not? aren't they private citizens doing a government job too??)

[AJ@PR]

( why are they loved but the minutemen not? aren't they private citizens doing a government job too??)
Wow... so many different ideas to discuss in this thread.

Anyways, the MinuteMen have had various problems in the past.

I like the idea of watching the borders...
But I am about 99% positive that they must have over-stepped their rights.

Power goes to people's heads many times.

And, I don't think there's a government job that provides the same service that the Patriot Guard Riders provide.

And, a big w00t to:::

The owner of this website is 110% in support of the PGR.
w00t w00t!
:D

[intergalacticman]

And, I don't think there's a government job that provides the same service that the Patriot Guard Riders provide.



ummm....police :think:

[AJ@PR]

ummm....police :think:
Don't think it's exactly the same... or even close to the same.

Especially when you re-read their Mission Statement

The Patriot Guard Riders is a diverse amalgamation of riders from across the nation. We have one thing in common besides motorcycles. We have an unwavering respect for those who risk their very lives for America’s freedom and security. If you share this respect, please join us.

We don’t care what you ride or if you ride, what your political views are, or whether you’re a hawk or a dove. It is not a requirement that you be a veteran. It doesn't matter where you’re from or what your income is; you don’t even have to ride. The only prerequisite is Respect.

Our main mission is to attend the funeral services of fallen American heroes as invited guests of the family. Each mission we undertake has two basic objectives.

1. Show our sincere respect for our fallen heroes, their families, and their communities.
2. Shield the mourning family and their friends from interruptions created by any protestor or group of protesters.

We accomplish the latter through strictly legal and non-violent means.
To those of you who are currently serving and fighting for the freedoms of others, at home and abroad, please know that we are backing you. We honor and support you with every mission we carry out, and we are praying for a safe return home for all.

[intergalacticman]

i stand corrected

[Zephik]

i stand corrected

Technically your sitting. ;)

[Spacehonkey]

And, I don't think there's a government job that provides the same service that the Patriot Guard Riders provide.

The PGRs provide a service to help uphold what every human being should have already. That's HUMAN DESINTENCY, COMPASION & COMMON SENSE. These traits can not really be governed by any type of law enforcement. They should be taught to you by your family and friends but obviously this certain family was raised with a completely different kind of values.

[Airbozo]

Ok, know this is going off topic in a roundabout way. What I meant by the "Yelling Fire in a theatre" comment was just an example of the restrictions to "Free Speech" and going into the blame game kind of got it off track. Yes I would also expect that if someone was trampled to death IF there was NOT a real fire, the person who incited the stampede would be held _mostly_ responsible. If there WAS a fire, the deaths would lie strictly on the arsonists shoulders (if it was arson) and the Owners shoulders if it was a code violation. And if there really was a fire, large or small and someone got trampled to death I would _hope_ that those responsible (the Tramplers) would suffer the consequences.

On to the ass wrecking. Ironcat, I will admit that I would also act this way. And yes, I would expect at least a citation although it would depend on the situation whether it would be viewed as incitement or not.

The SO pulled out her copy of Constitutional Law last night and pointed me to a few chapters on personal freedoms. (It's funny how she turned to the exact page she wanted without using the index... She is like that with facts and figures, almost creeps me out sometimes). One of the case laws from the 1940's points out that there is no such thing as "Absolute Freedom" since by it's very nature, freedom is limited. This goes back to the social studies class in Jr. High where they teach you that alone you have ALL the freedom in the world. Once there is more than one person, freedom becomes limited. I also read some chapters on Incitement and what it really means in context of the constitution. There is even a section on "Fighting Words".

http://supreme.lp.findlaw.com/constitution/amendment01/18.html

...The case is best known for Justice Murphy's famous dictum. ''[I]t is well understood that the right of free speech is not absolute at all times and under all circumstances. There are certain well-defined and narrowly limited classes of speech, the prevention and punishment of which have never been thought to raise any Constitutional problem. These include the lewd and obscene, the profane, the libelous, and the insulting or 'fighting' words--those which by their very utterance inflict injury or tend to incite an immediate breach of the peace. It has been well observed that such utterances are no essential part of any exposition of ideas, and are of such slight social value as a step to truth that any benefit that may be derived from them is clearly outweighed by the social interest in order and morality.''

Hehe and this "matrix" thingy is indeed ingrained in our society...

In the pantheon of the rights of the people, Supreme Court Justice Benjamin Cardozo, who served from 1932 to 1938, wrote of free speech that it is "the matrix . . . the indispensable condition of nearly every other freedom."

Understanding the case laws, helps to understand the constitution. My head hurts from trying to follow along with some of the "Freedom of Speech" case laws though.

[Spacehonkey]

Somebody did their homework last night. :) +Rep

[Scotty]

If they were in the UK, they would be arrested for inciting racial hatred

That wouldn't happen our government is f****d up big time, foreigners in our country can do what ever they damn well please there are now areas in London and other parts that ENGLISH people in ENGLAND even MP's cannot enter - try telling me this country isn't f***ing retarded.
Yet if a English person says only English people can come in its racist, offensive and chances are they will end up in court about it.

The sooner i leave this crap hole the better.

/End rant :P

Call me racist, but it's f***ed.

[AJ@PR]

^^^ The fact that there are places in your country that, the people from that country cannot access, is not out of the ordinary.

Territories like these are:
Embassies [spelling? Plural of embassy]
Military Installations
Occupied Territories
etc.

I wouldn't call you a racist...
But if you're calling your country a "crap hole"... damn.

[xRyokenx]

What tires me is when people look at the cover of a book, or just hear the name of it, and make rock solid opinions that they won't change until somebody A) somehow manages to get a reasonable explanation through their thick skull, or B) they die, which won't change their opinion, but at least they won't be on a hopeless crusade to change my opinion. They hear one thing, and they judge you by that, how retarded, all the more reason I'm glad I don't have to/can't go back to school... that's one other thing, you get suspended from school and taken to court for any little thing in the US these days, and it's not just the schools either, as far as I know, it's everywhere... and they don't really allow you to discipline your kids anymore (or if that's inaccurate, people don't anyway, that's why almost everyone you meet is an a******, at least if they're around my age...).

Note: That's not all I have to/could say, I'm just too tired to gather all my thoughts... it's tough being prediabetic and not having enough quality food around... I hate my medical disorders...

[nil8]

I've missed a lot of this post, but I've caught the general message.

Ethics and morality can't be legislated. I'm glad there aren't government groups like the PGR or the idiots picketing a funeral with some ridiculous divine message. That inevitably leads to facism.

If you engage lunatics in debate over their beliefs, let them trip over their own faulted arguments. You don't have to argue them down. Fallacy exists where you find blind faith easily. Talk to them, learn those weak spots, then make them fall into them. It's not hard.

Stupid people choose to be stupid. In this country, you can learn anything you want. Stop fighting to save everyone. People choose to blindly follow. They're sheep and not worth noting.
This makes me sociopathic and I'm extremely unapologetic for it. Some people set themselves up to be used.

Public displays hold little interest for me. It's for the camera, the news, the shock value, and the gossip that comes from those things. Effective, but ultimately short term.

The moment I rebel is when I can't learn what I want when I want and how I want. That's when you will ruffle my feathers into action. Outside of this, most items are just debate.

[AJ@PR]

I'm out.

[xRyokenx]

I'm out.


LOL, I agree... I have some stuff to say, but I'm just too tired to type it up and much of what I believe has already to be said, so I don't need to strain myself when I'm kinda tired to word it properly, which has been difficult lately due to some confrontational/"could offend someone" essays for English... no matter how you write it, someone's gonna get pissed, so all that I really need to do is word it to piss off the least amount of people... but then again, there are only a few people that are going to read it, so...

[jaxspades]

Hey guys--I kinda skimmed this, it was a lot to read--but a few thoughts.

1) I hope you guys don't think poorly of Christians--I hate it when people use God to get their own dubious schemes done. Man that makes me angry--to use a holy God for your unholy desires. Disgusting. It really is sad to see a 'Christian' (I use that term lightly with these folks) do something like this. I may be against Homosexuality, but you'll never see me do anything illegal about it--in fact, I try to be as nice to them as possible--that's what Christ really wants from a Christian--love EVERYONE. I don't remember who said it, I think it was Minty--"Kill 'em with kindness." That one works everytime. Ooops....I'm going off on a tangent here.

2) How many of you guys are Libertarian? Just sounds like that....I'm not labeling, I was just kind of wondering with the "freedom of rights, as long as those rights don't impose on others' rights" mentality...I'm weird, I know, but I was just wondering.

3) I'm no moderator, but come on guys, try to keep this posting civil--seems like peoples' blood was beginning to boil. I'd hate to see any of us hurt one another--it's just not necessary.

4) Have a great Easter Sunday, and a good upcoming week as well. IF you live in the midwest like I do, I hope this weather gets more spring-like.......didn't we have Fall a few months ago?? :?

[Crimson Sky]

2) How many of you guys are Libertarian? Just sounds like that....I'm not labeling, I was just kind of wondering with the "freedom of rights, as long as those rights don't impose on others' rights" mentality...I'm weird, I know, but I was just wondering.


I sort of have an informal "Don't ask, don't tell" policy when it comes to religion and politics on the forums--it helps keep things civil--but its all cool :)

[nil8]

My political area extended to aspects of democrat, libertarian, and Jeffersonian anti-federalist. All have parts I agree with and support, but none of them are complete ideologies I follow.

Religion is one of those topics where people get upset very quickly. It's the reason I haven't listed my affiliations here. Some people would have issues with it, and I don't want flaming arguments about religion here. It doesn't solve anything and no one will change from it. It's just flaming.

Civil debate is good and I'm surprised of the amount and context of real conversations this forum has had in the past when it comes to issues. At the same time, there is only so much that can be said and once it has, it slowly turns into argument.

[SgtM]

Man, whats with you all. Your all for fredom of speach but as long as it has limitations? WTF..

Sure, what thoes people are doing seems wrong to some. Has anyone actually listened to what they are saying? What they are saying has some truth to it. How they go about relaying that message is where they become **** ups.

I say SGTM should round up a bunch of marines and go to thier house in full army atire, hog tie em like they do with insugents, and ship em off to iraq. Let them go tell there message to the iraqies while they bury there dead soldiers. Bring them home in a month assuming they survive and ask them if they'd like to continue with there foolish behavior.

I can't believe I missed this thread. I didn't read through the whole thing, but this "family" SERIOUSLY pisses me off!!! Hats off to the bike club for their support. Those guys should be given medals.

I vote that every family that these idiots have disrespected needs to be present at the funeral procession when one of the members of this family dies. See how these people like it when there is a crowd cheering as the herse (sp) drives by. As a matter of fact, let's all get together and have a fricken tailgate party.

I'm all for freedom of speach and that jazz.. but that doesn't mean that it doesn't bother me when someone disrespects this country, it's colors, or the men and women fighting to protect it.

As far as Cana's idea.. What can I say? good idea, + rep.. let's get some. Who's with me?