Who Killed The Electric Car?

[CanaBalistic]

Who Killed The Electric Car?

I'll let you all think about that one while i sleep. I'll post my thoughts when i get home from work tomorrow.

[Spawn-Inc]

consumers did. consumers want power, performance, and value and that doesn't add up to electric car. it will go to hybrids and biogas's and things like that first. then electric or hydrogen

[DaJe]

The Stonecutters.

[Slug Toy]

consumers want power, performance, and value and that doesn't add up to electric car.

actually you would be surprised how easily it CAN add up to electric car. one of my ongoing projects is an electric sports car. ive done the calculations, and at my target weight, with the motors ive been looking at, and the gearing ratio ive deemed ideal, the car should be able to go 0-60 in under 3.5 seconds and hit a maximum speed of 200. now if i can get a hold of two of the tesla roadster motors... that doubles the performance potential and halves the motor weight.

electric cars have the ability to be VERY sporty. you just have different design challenges to consider.

anyways... who killed it? well its not dead. if it were dead, tesla motors wouldnt have gotten off the ground, and they wouldnt be back ordered until 2008. who kept it in restraints? overall id say the market environment did. think about the implications of electric cars. think about all the things that would change. oil companies? gone or significantly changed. carbon dioxide output? cut back drastically. car companies? completely different. electric motor and battery design? id like to think they would be much further ahead than they currently are.

i can see a day when electric cars are mainstream and very "integrated" in the same sense that HTPC's integrate the computer and theatre experience. drive-by-wire, music, navigation, internet-on-the-go, possible methods of recharging installed in roads themselves that act in the same way those wireless recharging surfaces do. heck those few things right there would drive a significant change in infrastructure towards broadband and easily accessible utilities. now would probably be the time that it all would happen too because people are becoming more aware of their connectivity to the rest of the world.

so getting back to the question i was trying to answer. why did the market hold this back? because it requires a HUGE change in the way things are done. systems that have been set in place for the past 75 years would have to be swept aside, and it appears that the time just hasnt been right. that may change though... from what i see people are waking up to the reality of necessity.

[Spawn-Inc]

how long can the car go before you need to recharge? i forgot to add that too. i'm not at all again't electrics i was just guessing how it died. i was watching daily planet and i say a sports car like what your talking about that can go crazy fast. and to help with battery use it somehow took the engery need to stop and recharged the batteries.

[Drum Thumper]

OPEC. (WARNING!!! RANDOM VAN HAGAR QUOTE COMING!). Because Right Now, Old Men and Oil Companies are in control.

[Ticien]

Video killed the raaadio car...

[Crimson Sky]

Rich white men with interests in political power and Big Oil.

nuff said.

[chaksq]

Not sure about the electric car but GM killed the EV-1

[AJ@PR]

It was Professor Plum, in the Conservatory, with the Lead Piping!!!

[rendermandan]

It was Professor Plum, in the Conservatory, with the Lead Piping!!!

LMAO!!! Good one!

[xRyokenx]

Ever see that Simpsons episode where they went crazy with environmentalism? There was the one guy there that had a gocart that was powered by "His Self-Satisfaction From Helping the Environment" or something on those terms, it was pretty funny...

[Airbozo]

I would agree with Crimson on this one. The same people who killed train/rail transportation in most of the country many decades ago.

[luciusad2004]

I don't think the electric car will catch on until people really start to see were our current path is leading us. I look at my country (America) and i just know that ... people aren't going to give up what they have for some "sissy electric car" (not my opinion but how i perceive the opinion of most other people. You have these kids with their pimped out tricked out hot rods and SUVs who aren't going to trade in their all powerful 8 cylinder cars just to be friendly to the environment after all... it doesn't affect them. You have the old timers who also aren't going to trade in their 50 or 60 something sports car for some newfangled "foreign trash". And then you have the people who are just to resistant to change. The people who have been driving for forty or fifty years and just couldn't comprehend plugging their car in to charge it up instead of filling it up with good old gasoline. You just wont see it... people would rather drive their mustangs and Cadillacs than some "wussy" electric car.

Throw on top of that the fact that these things aren't exactly cheap yet (I imagine if people started buying more of them though that it would allow the manufacture to bring down costs a bit) and that so many people would have to learn how to work on these things. (although i imagine if they are electric they might be comparatively simpler than internal combustion.)

Hell prime example, my moms exhusband and his family have a small family auto shop. Some one wanted some work done on a hybrid. They knew nothing about it. I guess while they were do working on it something started up to charge the battery. They freaked out and thought that it was going to take off on them. Not knowing what to do they just pulled the battery out. After words they decided that they were no longer going to work on them.

In my opinion i would love have to have an electric or hydrogen powered car. I want something clean and silent. I don't need a 12 cylinder monstrosity that can go down the highway at 300 mph. Other than people who drive race cars, who ever really NEEDS to go over 100 in their day to day travels. Sure i would love to own a Porsche or a Ferrari or [insert fancy European sports car hear] but its never going to happen and ill be well suited with some cheap Japanese car that will end up saving me money on gas anyway. An electric would be even better.

[xRyokenx]

What would really sell it off would be if it could go for a LONG time without having to be charged, especially for frequent travellers... I'll add more later...

[AJ@PR]

I'm up for electric cars.

They're going to kick ass... and I'm sure the Tesla kicks ass as it is.

BUT!
I WANT a 454 cubic inch V8 made out of good ol' fashioned iron.
I WANT a 6.4 Liter V8 twin turbo Diesel TRUCK to go get the groceries.
I WANT to be able to buy a quad-turbo V12 super car that has the ability to top 220MPH.

Everybody is an individual.
It doesn't make sense to say "Nobody needs a xyz to go to work."
Cars are, much, much much much more than transportation.

Yeah, some people see them as just a way to get from point A to point B.
Probably something very similar to Mac users.

I don't see them that way.
I see them as much more.

If we go to the lowest common denominator, then we're all screwed when John passes us by in his bicycle.
I mean, if JOHN uses a BICYCLE, then why can't we ALL use a bicycle?!

Cause I don't want to!

Electric cars will be very cool... but today, there's no way to quickly charge those types of batteries without having them (a) explode and (b) have them consume exhorbitant amounts of power (MegaWatts?).

I'll take a sweet sounding, blueprinted, 383 V8 with some nice jetted Webbers, a floor-shift, clutch, rumble exhaust, and classic lines.

[Airbozo]

I think the electric car _would_ catch on but there are not enough options available and most people associate electric cars with golf carts. Detroit (and other car locales) have not done enough to offer options to those of us willing to spend the money on one (and I think there are still rebates offered by both state and federal governments that take some of the bite out of the cost). Again, I personally believe this is due to big oil.

As to the repair shop; Technology changes. Keep up or lose out. Much like the computer shop down the street that works mostly on old systems, when presented with an sli rig or something that is state of the art, they are lost, and want to charge you for the time it takes them to get up to speed with your particular model. They need to educate their mechanics if they hope to compete.

Electric car technology is changing _fast_. Tesla Motors is one example of an electric car built right. It is a high tech car designed by a high tech company, _not_ old school detroit autoworks. This is why it took less time to get it to market and why it does not cost over $100k. Instead of trying to invent technology it had no experience with, Tesla took a different approach. They let computer companies drive the battery development and then "borrowed" the technology for their vehicle. COTS, Common Off The Shelf parts are what made this car possible. The Tesla Roadster is one of the first of many cars that will be hitting the market in the next ten years with technology developed the same way. That car does 0-60 in about 4 seconds and has a range of approximately 250 miles, and will plug into a "normal" wall socket.

I myself looked at one of the hybrids and test drove one for a couple of days to see if it would make a difference in my mileage. I found out in order to actually get any significant difference I would have to change the way I drive, and take another 1/2 hour to get to work. 1 hour round trip does not seem like much, but that is time out of my busy schedule that means I make less $$. Add on the cost of the vehicle and the savings is negligible. I'll wait for a couple more years until I can either afford a Tesla or until the tech catches up a bit.

[Airbozo]

...............
You, I, and Joe Somebody who go to work in the city or whatever every day, get no benefity really, from owning one yet. I would love to get a tesla. Those things look SICK!

Well spoken Terry.

-Jeremy

Most of the issue I have besides the city driving, is the big ass hill I must climb back an forth to work. Downhill I charged all the way, up hill I got some really low numbers like 30mpg (maybe). But you are right, the city driving really kills it for me. Although with a Hybrid I could drive in the carpool lane, so I could actually get on the freeway and _not_ sit in traffic for an hour.

The wife and I rotate who gets a new car. I got my sportster, she got one. Then she sold her sportster and bought an outback(new), then I bought my mustang (used, so I still don't get a new car yet). Since it is the wife's turn (and her nickname is Kathy Andretti), I showed her a prius (cue the barfing sounds (plus she refuses to drive an auto)), then I teased her with the Tesla. Her eyes lit up and I could see the financial gears spinning trying to figure out how to afford one. The only excuse she came up with was "How would we get all our snowboard gear and the dogs up to Lake Tahoe?" My answer? "As soon as the Landcruiser (really her truck) has been restored, that won't be a problem." Needless to say, the Finance Minister promptly started budgeting $$ for the 'cruiser. Now we still have to figure out how to afford a pricey car, since as a Teacher she does not make enough to afford a Tesla.

I guess that would sum it up for a lot of people. It comes down to the cost. Short term gain, long term loss or long term gain with a short term loss...

[Commando]

AJ@PR is totally right on with this one.

The reason electric cars stink is because they look...well you know.
http://farm1.static.flickr.com/112/312747792_f1f5987b94.jpg?v=0
Gee, it didn't take me 6 years at business school to tell you why this wasn't a hit.
http://l.yimg.com/www.flickr.com/images/spaceball.gif

But the new Tesla looks wicked and has a cool name. Standby.
http://www.fastcursor.com/vehicles/images/tesla-roadster-pic-1.jpg
I would totally drive one.

[xRyokenx]

Heh heh, gangstas wouldn't even put the top one on blocks, heh heh... wow.

[Omega]

Heh.

I want to see an electric version... of the Atom.

The Atom is essentially a car, but only at the bare minimums. No fancy electronics, no windshield, no doors, etc. It has no roof, either. It's a frame, with a motor, suspension, control rods, and all the other good stuff that makes cars go. It runs off of a Honda Civic Type R engine, and due to it's light weight (less than a ton, less than the Lotus Elise, too), it handles real well and goes like ****.

Search on YouTube for "Topgear Atom". You'll see.

[Slug Toy]

I want to see an electric version... of the Atom.

thats pretty much what my project car is going to be. nothing special, just a body, frame, and motors. if i ever get the thing built ill be tearing up the streets until i break something.

i think if you get enough people and companies making sporty cars like the tesla roadster, and the few other underground electric roadsters out there, interest will pick up.

[CanaBalistic]

Sorry guys. I didnt get a chance to post after work today. I got caught up by a once in a lifetime opertunity to see the Trailer Park Boys live. It was only Randy & Mr. Lahey but it was a ****in kick ass show. They did a bit of "fruity" stuff but it was all in good taste. I didnt get a chance to see Bubbles, Ricky, & Julian when they came to town last year but my buddy did and he said this show was much more animated and entertaining. I dont have to many pics right now on account of my digital cammera sucking major bawls, the no photography rules, and i havent finished the film in my 35mm cammera.

PICS:
Lahey & Randy on stage:
http://i66.photobucket.com/albums/h258/Cana-Balistic/100_2142.jpg

My buddy getting an autograph:
http://i66.photobucket.com/albums/h258/Cana-Balistic/cid_image_1.jpg

I'll finish my topic starter tomorrow, sorry for the delay.

P.S. I wasnt aware that there was a company making production electric cars. Looks european, are there any in the americas?

[Airbozo]

.........
P.S. I wasnt aware that there was a company making production electric cars. Looks european, are there any in the americas?

Tesla IS an American company. A Silicon Valley company no less.

The body was designed by Lotus if I remember right and I am pretty sure Lotus is also doing the manufacturing as well.

From the company website:
What is your relationship with Lotus?

Lotus Cars is assembling the Tesla Roadster under contract to Tesla Motors. Tesla Motors has also hired Lotus Engineering for certain design and engineering tasks. The Tesla Roadster style was developed in Lotus Engineering's design studio - Lotus Engineering won a design contest where several design firms submitted proposals. Lotus Engineering supplied the initial chassis which was significantly modified by Tesla Motors engineers.




EDIT: That guy needs to put his shirt back on, I think I puked a little...

[luciusad2004]

Of coarse the body was designed by Europeans... thats why it actually looks good.
JKJKJK

[Eclecticos]

CanaBalistic Those look like the guys from Fear and Loathing in Las Vegas. Lol


Bring on the Corn Liquor Gas. .

[Eclecticos]

Look at these little buggers from treehugger.com LMAO. .
http://i.treehugger.com/files/th_images/electric_cars.jpg

[xRyokenx]

OMG, I'd never be seen in the same city as one of those... especially not if it is that awful teal color... I'd drive a SMART though, google those, they are the most badass of street legal go-carts you'll ever see.

[luciusad2004]

I never could understand why all of these designers insist on making UGLY electric cars. I just want to slap someone and be like... wtf were you thinking, NO ONE will buy that.

Edit: I was thinking it could have something to do with this.

Maybe the only developers that are actually willing to design these cars are those crazy "forward thinking" guys who insist that the ergonomics of current cars is all wrong and needs to or will change in the future...

Personally i think cars look fine the way they are. Well... at least some cars.

[Redundant]

I agree with you completely Lucius. Why would any company want to make those tiny little cars, not to mention the 3 wheel ones. If people bought those, everyone would probably flip them over on fast turns. Do those designers also realize there is _no_ storage room in most of those cars. If it can't hold anything but one person, you're better off buying a scooter that has comparable MPG.

They look like they have no safety features and you'd be seriously hurt or killed by anyone using a gas car (like in 5-10 years from now). The Tesla roadster is everything an electric car should be: normal shape, capable of high speed, good battery life, and keeping up with the tech.

[CanaBalistic]

The Tesla roadster is everything an electric car should be: normal shape, capable of high speed, good battery life, and keeping up with the tech.

Actually, all pure electric cars have thoes features, minus the good looks. The second gen electric cars built in the 90's (Saturn EV-1) had a 0-60 time of 3.5 seconds. Electric motors are more powerful off the line because there full torque potential kicks in as soon as power is applied. Gas engines have to rev up to there max torque potential which is about 5,000 RPM.

Battery capacity & life has grown exponentialy since first deployed in the second gen. EV's in the 90's used old tech lead-acid batteries and got about 120 miles to the charge. If you compare that to todays standards, its more than half of what a gas vehicle gets. New batteries (ovinic & dry cell) show much better performance over old batteries. The use of thies new batteries could extend milage to 200-250 miles per charge which is equivilant to most cars on the road.

I think its a horrible choice to go seek out hydrogen as an alternative fule source. However, this is the only choice for oil and automotive companies to steer us in. Hydrogen is capable of powering clean engines in the future. However there are some very serious drawbacks.

#1. It takes an extreme amount of electricity to cause the reactions needed to free hydrogen from water. This will show in the price of hydrogen. If youre complaining about the price of gas now, wait untill your paying up to 3 times as much for clean hydrogen which wont get you any further on a full tank.

#2 There is no infastructure for hydrogen. At best, there is about 30 hydrogen stations in the entire world. It would take 20 years MINIMUM before there will be a hydrogen station on every street corner.

#3 Hydrogen is extremly volatile. Imagine having a small hydrogen bomb in every car on the road...

There are some other down sides to hydrogen that i wont get into. Insted, i'll list some of the benifits of electric cars. Thies are the reasons oil and auto companies hire lobbiests and laywers to fight on there behalf.

#1. There is allready an infastructure for electricity. There is electricity at every gas station and household in the world. The only thing that'd have to be done is add a few more outlets.

#2. An electric motor requires little to no servicing in an average life span of over 20 years. In most cases, only the brushes need to be replaced. Compare that to a gas engin that needs servicing every 3 months and has expencive parts and components.

#3. This is the one that hits hard for oil and auto companies. Electricity can be made for free. You could retro fit your garage with solar cells and never have to give your money to the oil companies.


Electric Cars are the clear choice for a cleaner future today.

I also checked out the Tesla Roadster site. With a waiting list of over a year and a half and a price tag equivalent to a small house, it is an unviable solution and shouldnt be thought of as one. Allthought it is a step in the right direction.

I am surprised at the amount of replys this topic has gotten. I've very prould of all of you.

[Slug Toy]

#1. It takes an extreme amount of electricity to cause the reactions needed to free hydrogen from water. This will show in the price of hydrogen. If youre complaining about the price of gas now, wait untill your paying up to 3 times as much for clean hydrogen which wont get you any further on a full tank.

not only that, but the main source of industrially used hydrogen right now is natural gas. basically their still using hydrocarbons to produce a clean fuel. whats the point of a clean fuel if it still means we need to ravage the earth of its resources?

[Redundant]

#2. An electric motor requires little to no servicing in an average life span of over 20 years. In most cases, only the brushes need to be replaced. Compare that to a gas engine that needs servicing every 3 months and has expensive parts and components.

Actually, all electric cars use brushless motors. This way, the center spindle is the magnet and there are non-moving coils around it. A brushless controller alternates between 2 or more coils to make the magnet spin. Brushless motors are more efficient and last a lot longer than their brushed counterparts.

[Airbozo]

Electric Cars are the clear choice for a cleaner future today.

I also checked out the Tesla Roadster site. With a waiting list of over a year and a half and a price tag equivalent to a small house, it is an unviable solution and shouldnt be thought of as one. Allthought it is a step in the right direction.

I am surprised at the amount of replys this topic has gotten. I've very prould of all of you.

I agree that Hydrogen is NOT the way of the future, but will probably be shoved down our throats by big business. Electricity production is not free. Ever. Even if I had a roof full of solar panels there is cost associated with them to some extent. It is however cheaper than every other solution on the market now and for the foreseeable future.

In my opinion, Tesla Motors is on the right track. According to everything I have read and heard about this car, it is more than the engineers had hoped for. The model they stuck by was to build a car whose entry point into the market was comparable to other sports cars. They did this for 2 reasons. One, to show that a high performance electric vehicle was NOT just a fantasy, and Two, to help finance the production of other models. Tesla figured that the first car that they produced, absolutely HAD to turn heads and generate enthusiasm for electric vehicles. IMHO Mission accomplished! Tesla planned to produce 100 cars the first year, 200-300 the second year (they may only make 100 of the second models though), then by the third year they had hoped to have a 4 door sedan as an offering in the $50k range (this may not happen until the fourth year, but I am still hoping).

There is a good article in an old Wired magazine (how appropriate that the first journalist to ride in a Tesla wrote the article NOT for an auto magazine, but a GEEK magazine);
http://www.wired.com/wired/archive/14.08/tesla.html?pg=1&topic=tesla&topic_set=

EDIT: $80-$100k is no-where near what a small house around here would cost ($500k wold get you into a starter house in the middle of gang infested Oakland...). Even in the middle of nowhere $100k would barely buy you a shack on a lot. The Tesla was targeted at people who would be buying that $100k+ car (sports or not).

EDIT (again): Oh and found this also on Wired. Competition for Tesla?
http://www.wired.com/cars/futuretransport/news/2007/04/xonecar_0402/

[CanaBalistic]

Good valid points there.

You wouldnt find anything in the city for that price. A small rural lot might be closer to 100k.

[progbuddy]

actually you would be surprised how easily it CAN add up to electric car. one of my ongoing projects is an electric sports car. ive done the calculations, and at my target weight, with the motors ive been looking at, and the gearing ratio ive deemed ideal, the car should be able to go 0-60 in under 3.5 seconds and hit a maximum speed of 200. now if i can get a hold of two of the tesla roadster motors... that doubles the performance potential and halves the motor weight.

electric cars have the ability to be VERY sporty. you just have different design challenges to consider.

anyways... who killed it? well its not dead. if it were dead, tesla motors wouldnt have gotten off the ground, and they wouldnt be back ordered until 2008. who kept it in restraints? overall id say the market environment did. think about the implications of electric cars. think about all the things that would change. oil companies? gone or significantly changed. carbon dioxide output? cut back drastically. car companies? completely different. electric motor and battery design? id like to think they would be much further ahead than they currently are.

i can see a day when electric cars are mainstream and very "integrated" in the same sense that HTPC's integrate the computer and theatre experience. drive-by-wire, music, navigation, internet-on-the-go, possible methods of recharging installed in roads themselves that act in the same way those wireless recharging surfaces do. heck those few things right there would drive a significant change in infrastructure towards broadband and easily accessible utilities. now would probably be the time that it all would happen too because people are becoming more aware of their connectivity to the rest of the world.

so getting back to the question i was trying to answer. why did the market hold this back? because it requires a HUGE change in the way things are done. systems that have been set in place for the past 75 years would have to be swept aside, and it appears that the time just hasnt been right. that may change though... from what i see people are waking up to the reality of necessity.

They've already made an electric sports car. It was plastered all over MSN one day a couple months ago.