Xana[x]du

[Crimson Sky]

From CNN:

The prescription drugs allegedly found in Al Gore III's possession this week are favorites among young people, according to drug abuse experts, who say prescription drugs may soon overtake street drugs in popularity. Gore was arrested on charges of possessing -- in addition to marijuana -- Vicodin, Xanax, Valium and Adderall.

According to a CASA report, between 1993 and 2005 the proportion of college students abusing Vicodin and other opiods went up 343 percent, about 240,000 individuals. The numbers increased 450 percent, or by 170,000 students, for tranquilizers such as Xanax and Valium, and 93 percent, or 225,000 students, for stimulants, including Adderall.

Folks do me a fava--stick to the other high: Modding something and creating works of art. This thread was started to be a discussion about the alternatives to drugs and alcohol. Post some of your healthy ideas.

[GT40_GearHead]

i don't need that stuff lol

I go for a run, i cheat at exams (hint hint), follow big rigs 3 meters behind at 70km/h, piss my mom off, i eat,collect old car parts, "have outdoor" sex with my girlfriend, swim, listen to music...

... never did run out of ways to get my rush!

there are so many things you should try in this life, why chose to end it with drugs ?

its only so much time till you kill your self, get in jail or get shot for not paying for your fix...

i did and will continue to do a lot of dumb **** but drugs are not on my list, I ain't that dumb... are you ?

[nil8]

Coming from someone who did use, finding ways to replace was the hardest part for me.
I'm still not entirely there yet.

There is an instant 'on' that drugs provide that little to nothing else does.

Having said that, there are plenty of things to spend your time doing. Drugs has a way of taking over and forming unhealthy habits. They can easily become the center of your world, your friendships and your existence.

The way pharmaceutical companies and America's attitude towards pills doesn't help either, but that's outside the scope of this discussion atm.

Find something that you enjoy to occupy your time that also benefits you.

[Airbozo]

...If the **** were legal, then you would be surprised at who you would find who DOES smoke weed.


-Jeremy

Since California legalized the medical use of Mary Jane, I AM surprised at who is visiting the clinic. But not appalled or saddened.

Yes Jeremy, all (or most) things in moderation. I have worked beside Alcoholics, pot heads, coke fiends and a few others, and the pot heads show up, get the work done and go home. No fuss no muss and so long as they are not out in the van toking up, I don't care (hey I used to resemble that van remark). The other groups are always late, miss work constantly and do not perform well at all. I have always said that EVERYONE is a coke addict. "." You just don't know it yet. ;)

The "highs" I get are from sniffing the flowers in my garden, smoking the little punks at the local skate park on my new stick, putting out a birdie at the local disc golf course, taking a walk with the SO and our pups in Big Basin state park, where it is easy to imagine being in Jurassic Park. For that quick rush, I log on and play some racing games or pop a few rounds into some online enemies.

And I only need one board for that downhill rush at 40mph.

[Airbozo]

I specifically stopped going to a physician I had been seeing for a long time when it became apparent they were not interested in helping me improve my health, rather they were just trying to give me the latest drug being pushed by the pharmaceutical reps...

I had a discussion about this with the physician in the waiting room. Surprise surprise there were more reps in the waiting room than patients and when I called them all drug dealers they were not amused. I asked if they preferred "pusher". Yes I went off that day (That is a rarity) and had all of them quite pissed off by the time I left there. Even a couple of the patients started joining in and raised similar issues as mine. That particular clinic is now an invitation only, AND you have to pay a yearly fee to join...

Oh and another healthy high? Sky Diving! Nothing like the rush of jumping out of a perfectly good airplane!

[nil8]

The problem is money, not media. Media always appeals to the highest bidder, with no sense of morality, just like all publicly-owned business.

Medicine is big business, and these companies have become heavy hitters. Back in the 60s, 70s, and 80s, Pharmaceutical companies advertised to health care professionals. Now they have the baby boom generation filling their coffers and continue to charge outlandish prices on things that are dirt cheap to create and distribute, which makes insurance rates rise, causing the cost of medicine to increase, all so Merck or Phizer or whoever can advertise to you and me about bladder control issues or herpes and feed doctors and staff nice meals to push their drug.

Seeing both the illegal and legal drug trades, they work the same. The difference is one is underground, the other is accepted and open. One wears 'outsider' clothes, one wears a suit. They both have the same goal. Alter your body with this chemical, which we provide for a price.

I'm not disgusted by this. Really. What disgusts me is that people lie to themselves of the reality of the situation. When a commercial tells you to ask your doctor about a drug, your doctor becomes a state-approved middleman drug dealer. He takes from the big fish, gets his cut, and passes it on to the consumer under the guise that this is going to help you.

In some cases, drugs do help. In some cases, people need to be told to be more disciplined in their life.
You're getting diabetes complications because you're morbidly obese and you don't have thyroid problems? Stop eating 8000 calories a day and get active.
You're muscles spasm and ache because you haven't gotten off the couch all weekend? Talk a walk.
You're tired and dragging by the afternoon? Get some sleep and stop eating fast food.
You're coughing up brown phlegm and get winded up a flight of stairs? Stop smoking.

I'm not saying people don't have real medical problems that need drug treatment. But there's a big difference between "I don't want to try" and I have Lupus. Personal responsibility is waning and it's pathetic. Stop bitching and make the changes in your life you desire. Taking a pill to half fix a problem is the easy way out.

Drugs should always be a last resort, not a first. It's a quick fix with real side effects, real health risks and a real crunch out of your pocketbook.

Oh, and I'm a card carrying member of NORML and will be a pro-marijuana advocate until the day I die. I don't smoke pot. I choose not to. It doesn't change the fact that it is not my place or my decision to stop anyone from doing so if they want.

I don't bow to the alter of censorship in any form. If it offends you, turn it off. It's this crazy notion of you don't have to watch/hear things that bother you. You CHOOSE to. Besides, TV is a massive timesink with little to no payoff. Not interested.

[jdbnsn]

I think you chaps are missing the point of this thread.

My highs in life come from interacting with and gaining a true understanding of other people.

[Mitternacht]

My shot of adrenaline is blasting a 1/4 mile in 12 seconds, and driving the twisty and sharp-bend roads around my house. I'm not into drugs, and never will be.

[Eclecticos]

My name is Eclecticos and I'm addicted to case modding. :)

~Counselor says "I'm sorry . .young man, But I'm going to have to take those cut off wheels from you. .and the mandrels. . Hand them over!"

~Eclecticos. "Awww, come on mannn. . not the mandrels." ::Thinks to self. .Its Ok . .Its Okay. I still have the sanding drums in my cargo pocket::

[Luke122]

Like Mitternacht, I'm a speed freak too. :D

Fast car, winding roads, and clear skies. Or.. a steep trail, my big bike, and a helmet. Look out below! Adrenaline is a pretty good "drug" that gives a really nice high.

As an ex-(pot)smoker, I can happily say that I do feel better since I've been off of it, but I dont consider it a drug either (as mentioned previously). I too have worked with people of different addictions, and the potheads were good hard workers, even if they were a bit late now and then. :D

I used to be a real caffeine head too.. 2-3 energy drinks/day plus God knows how much coffee... I've been caffeine free for 3 weeks as of yesterday! I'm sleeping better, thinking clearer, creativity is coming back, etc.

Does anyone here wake up at night because they are too warm? Soaked in sweat? Soggy pillow? That's the caffeine doing that!!! It's true.. I used to wake up several times a night, soaked in sweat. Not anymore!

The best replacement I've found though, is work. Immerse yourself in something that you enjoy, and strive to be the best at it. For me, it's my career and my business. It can be a bit hard trying to juggle the work and the family, but "My name is Luke, and I'm a workaholic".

I'm probably 60-70hrs a week, and I'm always looking for more opportunities to make some more money. Call me greedy if you want, I'm retiring at 45. :D 18 years to go...

[xRyokenx]

Thankfully, drugs have never appealed to me, ever. I try to steer clear of that crap, no good comes from it.

[nil8]

I disagree Tony.
Listen to your AEnima CD a little longer and you'll hear this.
It's Bill Hicks.

"If you don't believe drugs have done good things for us, then go home and burn all your records, all your tapes, and all your CDs because every one of those artists who have made brilliant music and enhanced your lives? REAL f*cking high on drugs."

I don't judge people for doing drugs. I just people for what they let drugs do to them.

I take walks. I do yoga. I think. I learn. I grow. I teach. Those are my drugs.

[Drum Thumper]

Caffeine is my crutch. I will admit it. Every time I tried something deemed 'illegal', the cops showed up.

Nothing like a bit of paranoia to cure ya real quick.

I recently wrote a paper on the ill effects of steroids in professional sports for one of my college classes. Even though we will never know the real reason as to why it happened, the Benoit murder/suicide that happened a few weeks back needs to be marked as evidence that drugs are bad for you.

[Airbozo]

... I'm retiring at 45. :D 18 years to go...

Yeah that's what I thought too. I'm 45 now and only 18 years to go...

...and yes I am a workaholic (only working 2 jobs right now). Be careful with that one though. Make sure you are getting as much or more out of it than your employer because you are disposable to them.

[Omega]

Things I do...


Mod. Duh.
Read the interbutts. Stuff like forums, imageboards, etc. I read erowid on occasion (it's a website that is docutmenting the human relationship with psychoactive drugs, the pros, cons, everything, from all kinds of different standpoints, pharmeceutical, recreational, etc)
Ride my longboard.
Ride my bike.
Listen to music (almost constantly when I'm awake)


and it goes on and on and on...

[slytherock]

As an ex-junkie, I must say that drugs don't do the same thing on everyone. Some can take it occasionally and some can't. I can't.
What get me off the streets:
First, it was determination: I lose almost all my friends refusing to go out for about 3 months. Then started up other things that helped me not thinking about it anymore:
- Reading. I read about 1 or 2 books/week. Most of them about sc. Fiction, police stories and philosophy.
- Movies. see about 5 movies/week. It also help in my day work for different kinds of editing.
- Mods (...)
- And most important thing: GIRLS Always in need of girls, most of the time different ones. Some are on regular basis, and others, just for fun.

[simon275]

Who needs drugs. When there are Girls and jelly beans.

[Indybird]

I never have and never will do drugs. I was kinda surprised to find out a kid two lockers down from me (high school) had a massive marijuana stock in the locker. How dumb can you get? That was the most involved I've ever been with drugs. I get my rush from racing. Ya, ya only bikes so far but 35mph (my top speed ever on my mountain bike) on a thin-framed mountain bike is like 150mph in a car. The only other rush I get is getting large packages in the mail. I know it sounds weird but I just love it when theres a massive 60lb box on my porch for me!

I don't plan on ever doing drugs, smoking or getting to be an alcoholic.

The problem is the one true addiction I have (computers) is actually bad for my body: now I don't get that much exercise :(

EDIT:
Who needs drugs. When there are Girls and jelly beans.
On the note of girls, I gotta add that to my list, good point!

[Luke122]

Yeah that's what I thought too. I'm 45 now and only 18 years to go...

...and yes I am a workaholic (only working 2 jobs right now). Be careful with that one though. Make sure you are getting as much or more out of it than your employer because you are disposable to them.

I'm actually in luck here.. one of the jobs is my own business, which pays me nearly triple what I earn from my fulltime job... but it's not constant. The daytime job is regular, has great benefits, and I work hard at it to make sure I'm going to be there for as long as I want. :)

Sooner or later I'll leave as an employer, and contract back to them through my own business. I've got a ton of other business ideas in the works too, just need more startup capital for them. :D

Yup, cash is my drug. :D

[Slug Toy]

No one. And I mean no one, will *ever* convince me that "Marijuana" or POT is a "Drug" (at least not i nthe conventional way we use the term..)


Oh, and I'm a card carrying member of NORML and will be a pro-marijuana advocate until the day I die. I don't smoke pot. I choose not to. It doesn't change the fact that it is not my place or my decision to stop anyone from doing so if they want.

minty, nil8... you're my kind of guys.

ill come clean. i do pot. if you read my "back in action" thread, i believe i mentioned that i have ways of dealing with my bipolar disorder... and that is one of them. it really compliments my tendencies towards fun and stupidity.

now, indybird and similar people... im not one to judge at all, but i do think you're missing out. alcohol and pot are definitely not hardcore drugs... and its my belief that you should try each at least once. i swear to god it will change your outlook on life... especially pot. i would rather stay away from alcohol honestly, because it can cause problems... but pot has almost the opposite effect and doesnt really change your judgement drastically... you become a complete idiot... but you can draw the line still. as an example... being around water when high is amazing... and the feel of water is even more amazing. every time... i really want to go for a swim, but i know that in my state, id sink to the bottom faster than a rock. im not as confident about being around water while drunk... im pretty sure if i were completely drunk, id jump in no questions asked. you're just more cautious with pot than alcohol.

there was a time when i said i would NEVER do any alcohol or any other drugs, but views change. it started with booze, and i thought getting tipsy was fun... things were awesome when you couldnt stay in your chair anymore. then the pot came in, and it opened my eyes and made me appreciate the senses more. things taste better, look better, feel better, and by god sound better.

nil8 is absolutely right about music. im now convinced that many good bands get their influence from pot or acid or some other psychedelic drug... and when you listen to that stuff while high it just grabs hold of you and puts you in a trance... and thats how you can tell its an awesome song. there is nothing that can compare to the emotional insight you get from music while high... i get hooked so strongly that i can create incredibly detailed stories for every song.

one bit of advice. im not encouraging by any means, but if you ARE going to buy pot, its true that the stuff from BC is the best. im lucky enough to live here, so i have free access to all sorts of pot with varying effects... and nothing else can compare to some good quality stuff from vancouver. so do yourself a favor and grab the BC stuff whenever possible, because nothing sets your senses on fire like it.

ok, ive pushed the pot wagon far enough. lets talk about something else.

the other high i get is from working out. i really cant explain it, but if i were to put it in words.. its like a rush of satisfaction because A) you know you're helping yourself and B) it feels so good when the burning stops. some people can relate, other cant. it really depends on how determined you are i guess. at first when i started working out... it wasnt very fun, and i was in and out ASAP... maybe half an hour every two days. now its grown to an hour a day, every day. i like pushing harder and harder because you feel it more and more as weight increases. not only that, but its a great boost when you look in the mirror and see the results. even further, when you get into the top level of the gym you're at, you feel empowered. im one of the strongest guys there now, and its very fun to know that everyone is watching, and i use that to really drive home the points of good form and intensity. people have actually started asking me for advice. it all contributes to the high of being in great shape.

lets shift gears again. prescription drugs. i really dont think much of them. in fact, i refuse to take them except antibiotics and pain killers. those two serve a purpose from my point of view. other than that.. these "miracles" that are continually pushed by drug companies are actually kind of insulting. commercials try to make us think we have something wrong and need medication, and once you start, some of them can be as addicting as hardcore street drugs like meth. im not happy about this one bit. theres no guarantee that these drugs will work, and theres a chance that they can cause other problems... and its not worth the risk as far as im concerned. my thought is this... drugs today are becoming more of a novelty rather than a necessity and we are better off without about 90% of them. its just too bad we live in a molded culture where drugs are an answer to make people behave. i think theres a quote from the movie serenity that goes something like "they'll switch back to the belief that they can make people... better. i do not hold to that." and that sums it up very well.

so to sum up my thoughts on this... pot: love it, stoner cliches are very true, bad publicity is about 99% unjustified (that commercial where the rolling papers talk to the guy about being too high... total crap... worst thing thats happened to me was a three way conversation with myself without saying a word, but i knew what was going on and could recognize that it was in my head). prescription drugs: to be used as a very last resort, and preferably not at all. lifting weights: a double win, you feel great AND end up looking great too.

i just have one request. please dont kill me for saying any of that stuff.

[nil8]

minty, nil8... you're my kind of guys.

I feel honored. There are a lot of us though, and I'm trying to decide if I want to be a psychonaut again.

As for the people who wish to stay sober, it's their choice and I will not put them down for their judgements. Not one bit. I will ask that they respect the rights of others in the same way. Be open to the idea if you want and don't buy into hype from either side. Any drug use is a personal choice that you, and only you, can make for yourself.

Oh, slug, try floating instead. Just relax, lie back and float around. Listen to your heart beat in your ears. Very relaxing.



there was a time when i said i would NEVER do any alcohol or any other drugs, but views change.

This is indoctrinated into us by society and our parents. "Drugs are bad" isn't a philosophy that holds ground because there is no give and take. There isn't real discussion or debate on the negative and positive aspects of drugs. It's treated much like sex in our society, but that is far outside the scope and level I'm willing to philosophize on these forums.


nil8 is absolutely right about music. im now convinced that many good bands get their influence from pot or acid or some other psychedelic drug...

Musicians are creators, and most of the better ones explore internally and create music based off this. So when you're exploring internally, the music has a deep emotional relevance, which is increased to levels almost never attainable for any decent period of time outside of psychotropic drug experiences, because of the nature of emotion and the effect on the sensory input sectors that drugs create.

The problem is when it becomes habitual and is no longer viewed as a spiritual or useful experience. It occurs because it did yesterday or last week, which is a common trap for most drug users to fall into, because your peers are into the same drugs you are once you become a habitual user, for the most part.

You're biased on your choice Slug. =P

I get high from learning. I get high from yoga.
I get high from knowing that I made someone brighter.
Teaching is one of my passions and I have little outlet for it, which I'm changing in the next month or so.

I think I might start teaching introduction philosophy as a night course at a local community college. The position is open, it pays crap and has only 1 night a week for 3 hours. Which comes out to about 10-20 hours a week depending on the syllabus and coursework involved.

This on top of joining big brothers, getting a pet, and working on myself makes me a busy, busy boy.

As for actual drugs, I try not to take antibiotics unless it is absolutely necessary. They are pushed so often that people are building up tolerances to the lighter ones sooner and having to go into stronger and stronger methods to fight infections. No thanks. If I have to take it to cure me, I will. If I don't, I'll struggle through.

I judge no one for the choices they make of what they put into their body. I judge them based on what they let it do to them. The person they become from the drug, not their use of it.

Off to the nutritionist. Have a good day guys. -Mk

[Airbozo]

.....
nil8 is absolutely right about music.

Pink Floyd much?

.... its true that the stuff from BC is the best. ...

I would have to argue this. I have sampled many leafy wares from around the world and the best without a doubt (and without any close competition) came from Hawaii. "." The second best came from Humbolt County (northern California). BC is up there in the top 5 though most definitely.




...
As for the people who wish to stay sober, it's their choice and I will not put them down for their judgements. Not one bit. I will ask that they respect the rights of others in the same way. Be open to the idea if you want and don't buy into hype from either side. Any drug use is a personal choice that you, and only you, can make for yourself.

...
I judge no one for the choices they make of what they put into their body. I judge them based on what they let it do to them. The person they become from the drug, not their use of it.

This is my philosophy too.

...

There is a time and place for these things. Some would argue, that is college, some would not place a time restriction at all. I remember back when my Mother was dying from cancer and the radiation treatments and chemotherapy were ravaging her body to the point she would starve herself because it took too much out of her to eat, plus she was never hungry. One of the times I took her to the Dr., he mentioned to her that she should smoke some pot (this was over a decade ago). She bristled at the suggestion that she take ILLEGAL drugs and refused to even consider it. The Dr. gave me a knowing wink... (must have been the way I part my hair...) My sisters and I conspired to get her high, and one afternoon before dinner we were all sitting around the table and my oldest sister broke out a HUGE fatty. Mom had no clue until we started passing it around what it was. She got the best second hand smoke high and mentioned later that it did help, but there was no way she would knowingly smoke illegal drugs...
Now in California, you can to the Dr. and get a prescription for Medical Marijuana.

FYI; The largest cash crop in the state of California IS pot. Has been for decades.

All in all I think the best advise I have ever got on this matter is; "All things in moderation".
Including;
Drugs (legal or not)
Alcohol
Religion
Politics
Family
Friends
etc...

[tybrenis]

Slug - I know exactly what you mean about the workout high. Theres nothing better than a good pump. Some bodybuilders even claim that a good pump is better than sex.

[Luke122]

Slug - I know exactly what you mean about the workout high. Theres nothing better than a good pump. Some bodybuilders even claim that a good pump is better than sex.

I dont know about better than sex, but a good workout is a pretty amazing feeling. I hit up the elliptical trainer last night until I pretty much collapsed, and it felt soooo good. I'll be doing that again tonight.. it's time I started moving myself around more again. I've been slacking off since before the baby was born, and now I'm paying the price.. nearly 230lbs. :P I'm 5'10 by the way.. lol.

In all fairness, I do have 16" arms still, so it's not ALL fat.. just most of it.

In my last post I said that "cash is my drug".. which isnt entirely true. I think it's actually knowledge that I enjoy more.. or the satisfaction of completing something, and making someone happy.

[tybrenis]

I dont know about better than sex, but a good workout is a pretty amazing feeling. I hit up the elliptical trainer last night until I pretty much collapsed, and it felt soooo good. I'll be doing that again tonight.. it's time I started moving myself around more again. I've been slacking off since before the baby was born, and now I'm paying the price.. nearly 230lbs. :P I'm 5'10 by the way.. lol.

In all fairness, I do have 16" arms still, so it's not ALL fat.. just most of it.

In my last post I said that "cash is my drug".. which isnt entirely true. I think it's actually knowledge that I enjoy more.. or the satisfaction of completing something, and making someone happy.

I know what you mean with the cardio kind of high - but thats something entirely diferent. Better than sex? Not imho. However, the "pump" is the one thing that drives body builders - when you take your muscles to failure they fill with blood and actually gain in size for up to an hour or so after the workout. Plus, I also like to soar feeling the day afterwards, like that in my legs today. I took my legs to failure on each machine last night - 400 lbs on the leg press, which isn't much to many people but to a 135 lb kid like me it's pretty good... :banana:

[DaveW]

My drug is people. I need to see friends and family or I get Cabin Fever.

-Dave

[Bucko]

My drug is people.

Must be hard to shoot up, or do you smoke it?

[Luke122]

SOYLENT GREEN IS PEOPLE!

..sorry, couldnt resist that one.

[Elenril]

I get my highs in life from interacting with people.
Gossiping with my girlfriends.
Buying something like a pair of shoes or an item of clothing completely by impulse.
I get a high from doing something right, and creating something beautiful, like case modding, drawing, or even playing my violin.
I get a high from being DIFFERENT from all my girlfriends too, by being a geek and preferring to chat about computers rather than why 'Lucy isn't talking to Graeme because Graeme dumped Nicole and Lucy is going out with Nicole's brother, and Nicole's best friend Sarah broke up with Richard because Richard is Graeme's second cousin, and now Sarah's going out with John but he's Lucy's ex, so now Lucy isn't talking to Sarah either...' etc etc.
I'm like Dave, if I don't see anyone for a while, I'll start to suffer from social withdrawal.

I've never done drugs or smoke, and I never will.

[calumc]

So your a people addict too........
You should get in touch with dave, he'll put you in touch with a good dealer.;) ;)

[Spacehonkey]

I'm addicted (http://www.thebestcasescenario.com/forum/showthread.php?t=7016) to TBCS :D.

[xRyokenx]

I get "high" in different ways too, whether it be excitement from waiting or going to get a new item I've been waiting for, playing a kickass game, reading a book that I really get into, thinking about things and making some great personal progress, etc. Music is great too... I dunno... we'll see what else happens in the future, I've had enough of addictions though, WoW, Pokemon (way back when), etc. Screw that, those are too draining on me.

[Spacehonkey]

You really want your heart to raise. Have your wife/girlfriend see you looking at another chick.:mad:

[nil8]

I'm a former smoker and I was considering smoking a couple of clove cigarettes(kretek), but I found out today they also contain tobacco.
Damnit.
Is there a cigarette that doesn't contain tobacco?
I don't want more than 1 and I can't have tobacco or I will start smoking again. I've tried that road and it leads me straight back into smoking.

Herbal snuff is nice, but I'm craving a cigarette, not chew.

[b4i7]

im addicted to modding, machining, this site... my girlfriend...music

not exactly in tha order either :D.

bondo dust is the modders crack

[luciusad2004]

When i need my fix i play some video games. Yeah its not the healthiest thing but at least I'm not passed out, or sitting on the couch giggling like a fool. So many better things i could be doing with my time. I could play games, spend some time with my girl, listen to some music, mod stuff, hell now that i have my license i can go for a drive.

Airbozo, did you mention disk golf? I used to play with my dad before he got in to school and all that stuff. You ever play down in Santa Cruz at De Laveaga? I think thats were we used to go when he lived around there. I haven't played in a couple of years though, Ill have to see if i can get him to take me this summer. I'm actually thinking of looking in to the disk golf club that my university supposedly has. It would give me something to do on campus.

[Airbozo]

MMM yes, Disc Golf!


DeLaveaga is consistently voted the best DG course in the world. 27 holes of par 3 golf winding through pine trees, brambles and poison oak, with some pretty steep ravines to avoid (thats where my flick rules). Some of those holes I have never gotten a par 3 on (Hole 13 is nicknamed I-5 which would make sense to those who knew that I-5 runs from the Mexican border to the Canadian border). Best I have ever gotten on that hole is a par 4 and I can drive 300' + on a good day. Just a few weekends ago, my golf partner made an Ace on hole 12, (nicknamed Mini-top-of-the-world). Hole 27 (originally hole 3) is nicknamed Top-of-the-World since it is the hight spot in Santa Cruz City proper. On a clear day, you can see all the way across the Monterey bay. I am Planning on entering the master tournament next year and a couple of us are practicing now. I have to shave at least 6 strokes off my game to even compete.

Heres the linky;
http://www.delaveagadiscgolf.com/

Check out the course info link and then the links for each hole to see photos. Last year During the member BBQ I made it into 27th place out of ~85 that showed up. That is my highest rating yet. I need to be in the top 10 to have a chance at prize money.

[Bopher]

I am addicted to video games. I've been moving and before I went to get the last of our stuff out of Cheyenne. I realized my PS2 was down there and I was here. No cable, no internet, no video games I was going crazy. You bet the PS2 was hooked up right when I got everything out of the car.

Plus internet. Anything to do with the internet. For hours I can wander just this site alone and not think about it. Finding more information keeps me going. I love the feeling of learning something new and applying it.

I will admit, I have drunk myself stupid when I was a teen. Never again, that hurt the next morning. And I have tried pot. But didn't like it. Preferred smoking cigs at the time. I still drink but my wife doesn't like it so I drink every so often and in serious moderation.

[Crazy Buddhist]

... There are so many other things to do, but just keep in mind.. The key to anything done is to do it in moderation... If you drink, do not drink yourself to oblivion. Just be smart.

/rant

-Jeremy

Indeed this is a truth beyond arguing. When I became a Buddhist I took a vow called the "Boddhisattva" Vow which determined my relationships to other people, putting them first. As part of the vow ceremony I gave up Beer. A year later I asked my teacher if she would mind me starting to drink beer again. "Why?", she asked. "Well", said I, "I have been drinking too much whiskey and wine and I think beer is better for me". She laughed and said "In that case definitely start drinking beer again - just remember too much of anything is excessive". OK I know its a tautology but it's also wise. lol :glasses:

[Omega]

I've taken up Vectoring. Started yesterday and I'm working on my third right now. It's fun, relaxing, and is helping me build up really good photoshop skills.

EDIT: here's an example, just a little sample (kudos to anybody who gets the refrence)

http://www.lotechdesigns.com/host/thumbs/6750WIP.jpg (http://www.lotechdesigns.com/host/images/6750WIP.jpg)

Click eeeet. It's a thumbnail. Also, that's my current WIP. Sorry about the eye-bleeding green, but that's the color I use for contrast (because it contrasts everything but eye-bleeding green.)

[Redundant]

There is not one good reason to take drugs! Feeling "happy" is not a good reason. "It heightens my senses" <- Don't give me that crap. :mad: When you're on drugs you're delusional. You're half awake and half sleeping; your mind isn't working properly while on drugs.
[/rant]

As for my drug free, alcohol free life, gaming really relives stress. As an added bonus, it's legal!
If you need something more than a simulation, join the air force or something; MACH 2 in an F/A-22 should be good enough high for you!

[DaveW]

When you're on drugs you're delusional. You're half awake and half sleeping; your mind isn't working properly while on drugs.

Well, that is pretty much the point. You think people do drugs to feel perfectly normal?

-Dave

[nil8]

And that's the exact attitude I despise because it comes from ignorance and acceptance of what you've been told, not actually looking at both sides objectively and choosing what you want. If you had, you wouldn't have such blind hate for something that gives people real enjoyment.

It's not your job to tell others what to do with their time, money or bodies.

There are plenty of reasons people take drugs. Outside of addiction, it all boils down to one and only one reason: they want to because they like it. If they didn't, they wouldn't do it.

If gaming works for you that's great, but you have no right to look down your nose at someone else for doing something that relieves their stress and makes them happy, which is the whole reason you choose to play games or do any other recreational activity.

[DaveW]

And that's the exact attitude I despise because it comes from ignorance and acceptance of what you've been told, not actually looking at both sides objectively and choosing what you want. If you had, you wouldn't have such blind hate for something that gives people real enjoyment.

Are you suggesting that people try potentially addictive and dangerous drugs in order to 'get both sides of the argument'?


If gaming works for you that's great, but you have no right to look down your nose at someone else for doing something that relieves their stress and makes them happy, which is the whole reason you choose to play games or do any other recreational activity.

It's nothing personal, but he has the right to whatever opinion he wants. You can try to persuade him, that's fine, but don't tell him he has no right-that's hardly going to win you any votes.

Don't take this the wrong way Nil, it's just in the spirit of intelligent, mature, adult discussion. :)

-Dave

[Redundant]

And that's the exact attitude I despise because it comes from ignorance and acceptance of what you've been told, not actually looking at both sides objectively and choosing what you want. If you had, you wouldn't have such blind hate for something that gives people real enjoyment.
I have looked at both sides. I couldn't care less what other people say. I've listened to many types of people. I know what's out there and I make my own choices.
Do you have any idea how many people die unnecessarily each year from drugs?!
On top of that, they waste tons of money, ruin their futures, and it affects their families. All because they wanted to feel high for an hour! :mad:

On the subject of alcohol, I just hate the taste; a personal preference. I have no problem with other people using it.


If gaming works for you that's great
That was merely an example...

(Thanks, Sir Dave, for at least you not getting mad at me.)

[xRyokenx]

Well... I don't think nil8 was getting mad at you, or anyone at that rate.

Here's my philosophy (note, after thinking on this a bit more it's bound to change):

Let people do what they will so long as it doesn't affect you in any negative way (well, the kind of things that you could change, it's hard to fix the whole world). Example: If someone is driving like an idiot and bound to crash into you, do your best to avoid them and write down their license plate number and contact the authorities. Example 2: Large corporations outsource their factories to China causing products to be A) potentially cheaper and B) more likely to have corners cut on production and cost causing them to not be as reliable, there's nothing you can really do about that besides the obvious, just don't buy those products.

Try to be flexible, it's sad to see some of humanity's failings, weaknesses, corruption, etc., but there's not much you can do, I help where I can and not focus on it to much when I can't, I try to live my life and be happy. It's hard to do, but it's worth a shot, eh?

Take note that there are more reasons than I have brain cells (bad analogy, lol) for people to take drugs than just pleasure, some take them because they are depressed and it makes them feel better, they're addicted, peer pressure, etc. etc. etc. I don't do drugs, smoke, or drink alcoholic beverages, but that's all personal preference and I don't say anything when someone does smoke weed or whatever. Live life how you will and don't force beliefs on other people. Oh, and for those that care, I'm a little religious, mainly because it's embedded in me too much, but I have been thinking about it all a lot and have been trying to have more modern beliefs, I try to view God (don't get pissy about me saying the name, I don't care if you believe or not, I'm just stating my views, not forcing them on you) as a more modern individual with my beliefs (or similar to mine, I have morals that are part of my being that are tough to remove due to good parenting, or not so good, your opinion on that)... well, I'll end the religion stuff there, it's not something to discuss here, too controversial, sorry to those who may be offended and to the mods for kind of jumping over a rule. Just don't want an argument.

So... enough parentheses there for ya? Heh heh. :D

[DaveW]

I love a good debate. I just don't want to see it get personal, and you both gave me the impression that your arguments were...well, a little more heartfelt. Like Crimson i'd like to see a clean debate on this subject, but I worry somewhat that it's either going to veer off course or descend into a gory battle between the sides who believe that drugs should never be touched, and those who who think that people should be left to do whatever they want.

At the end of the day, we all know that this discussion is bigger than we are: you're talking about basic freedom here at the end of the day, and drugs is simply the example of choice.

Meh, I don't want to get too deeply involved, but I think if you haven't figured out where i'm going yet a few seconds of thought is all it takes to figure it out for yourself.

-Dave

EDIT: I wanted to add something quickly: In many countries, Homosexuality is still considered a crime. Last month, I read a story about 2 guys in...I think it was Iran? Publicly beheaded for 'smuggling hash' into the country. Just enough for a couple of joints. What's my point? These are related to religion. I think bringing religion into this will make nothing but a sticky mess, so best avoid it...if you can?

[Slug Toy]

There is not one good god damned reason to take drugs! Feeling "happy" is not a good reason. "It heightens my senses" <- Don't give me that sh!t. When you're on drugs you're delusional. You're half awake and half sleeping; your mind isn't working properly while on drugs.


I've listened to druggies, goths, perverted skateboarders, and many other types of people.

am i to assume that you've ONLY been around people who were under the influence, and not high yourself? if you're speaking without experience, that pretty much serves no purpose but to make your opinion known. now... if you're speaking from experience, i can accept that. i can speak from experience and i for one say that it DOES heighten your senses and let you see things differently. im not talking about crystal meth or crack... im talking about pot and acid and that sort of stuff. id never go near the harder drugs.

i CAN give you a good reason to take drugs. medicinal reasons... glaucoma, cancer, arthritis... all painful and debilitating diseases that you can get relief from through medicinal marijuana. i myself am actually putting it to good use right now for this stupid spider bite (read my "remind me never to..." thread). it takes the pain away and really helps forget about it. nothing else is helping with the pain or swelling right now.


Do you have any idea how many people die unnecessarily each year from drugs?!
On top of that, they waste tons of money, ruin their futures, and it affects their families. All because they wanted to feel high for an hour!

on the flipside... how many people go on with perfectly normal lives, and then get wasted out of their minds at night with friends? sure, people DO die, my dad's friend's daughter just committed suicide over a crystal meth addiction. its definitely needless death, and its sad, but theres an even larger number of people who dont have any negative effects. dont forget about those people, or else you're falling into popular misconceptions that will only prolong irrationality and hatred.


It's not your job to tell others what to do with their time, money or bodies.


Why not? :raises eyebrows: Priests do it all the time. (BTW, I'm not religious)

ill tell you why you shouldnt tell people what to do. they tend to get supremely pissed off. i know i dont like being told what to do. sure, you're entitled to an opinion, and in an open discussion, you can make those opinions known. as soon as someone starts acting as if they have the answers and imposing their beliefs on others, the **** hits the fan. i make sure of it whenever im confronted with situations like this. people who THINK they are right all the time need to be put back into place. now, im not aiming this at anyone in particular... yet, but let it be a warning that certain people (im thinking me and nil8 for starters) dont like being told what to do. it becomes very evident when people start passing off beliefs as truths, and if you push the issue, we might just push back.


At the end of the day, we all know that this discussion is bigger than we are: you're talking about basic freedom here at the end of the day, and drugs is simply the example of choice.

it IS bigger, and yet it isnt at the same time. it affects many many people around the world, but it also affects the individual just as much. its bigger than we are because of the number of people involved, but history has shown that it only takes one fateful person to make a difference or start a revolution, and in that respect we ourselves are much bigger than the issue could ever be.

[b4i7]

i completely stand firm on the point of do what you want, choose the way you live...dont impose your lifestyle on others because what you think is wrong,

i stand in the same kinda place as slug toy on this... it has helped me deal with problems in the past and i know it will probably help me deal with future ones

do i see it as wrong, not really. am i going to force it onto other people? no

its not my postion to tell you whats right or wrong, its all a matter of your beliefs and what you want to do with your life

i used to be one of those, you shouldnt do that kind of people, until the day i tried it myself, now i realize the positives of it and am indifferent about it

other than when my mom found out, this is the first time ive actually been open about this subject

when she did find out, there wasnt any anger, just her tellin me dont bring it in her house

[Omega]

I'm surrounded by drugs every day. Legal ones, Illegal ones, Prescription drugs, lifestyle drugs, all kinds. My mom takes 7 pills every morning to help her stay mentally stable and keep her blood pressure down. Two of my close friends smoke weed. I drink caffeine (yes, it's a drug, people. It's a lifestyle/legal drug) in decent amounts.

I don't care what kinds of things people do, so long as they don't impose their opinions on me or try to force me into something. Said friends who smoke weed have offered me the chance to go get high with them. I've turned them down. They responded simply with "If you ever change your mind, let me/us know". They don't bother me about it anymore. Both of these people understand my views on drugs and acknowledge them for what they are, and leave it be.

My views on drugs are quite similar to my mom's in fact (except I'm more relaxed about it). She understands the need to experiment and try new things. Typically, however, she's really anti-illegal-drugs (this is the same person who takes 7 pills a morning so she does know the good side of drugs and the bad). In fact, my mom has even talked to me about weed. She's told me that if I ever want to try it, she'd let me so long as I didn't leave her jurisdiction and didn't go around town bragging "hey, my mom let me get high. how awesome is that?".


I'm sure there are some facets of my opinion that I'm missing, but whatever. You should get the gist of it.


EDIT: Oh yeah. Forgot to mention that I hate the anti-drug extremists. It's retarded, and part of the reason why I don't use government anti-drug propaganda as my source of info. I use Erowid.

[Zephik]

I'm just going to throw this in here just for the sakes of throwing it in here.

My uncle and my aunt were both "pot heads" from high school through college. They don't smoke it anymore, but they are both exceptional human beings. You would be hard pressed to find someone who didn't enjoy their company, they are just all around good people who are very loving and caring and try to live their lives to the fullest every day. ...well maybe not every day. But you get what I'm getting at. ;)

I _think_ my uncle did acid back in his youth too. I'm not completely sure about that though. But you would never know that he or my aunt did any drugs looking at them now. I never did at least, nor did my brothers until they told us. They look young and healthy. ...lol they look healthier than I do at times. Damn you Hershey's chocolate! Damn you! :p

As for myself, I tried smoking cigarettes once and I hated it. The effect was okay, but the actual smoke and the taste was just horrible. I don't know how similar smoking pot is, but if its anything like smoking cigs, I think I'll just stay away from it. I don't need it anyways, that and its just not worth the bad taste and smell (except clovers, damn those smell good lol). Just hand me a beer and I'm happy! :)

You know, I might venture to say that eating Hershey's chocolate bars is more unhealthy than smoking pot. Would anyone agree with that? I'm not saying that thats what I believe, but who knows, I might be right?

Oh yea, the whole point of this post was simply to say, that I think some drugs, like pot, isn't what people tell you it is. I think our government has somewhat "brain washed" us, like with the whole "war on drugs" deal. I just think its doing more harm than it is good. Although, there are bad drugs out there that are harmful to you and in the right situation, to others as well. So it is kind of good that we fight those kind of drugs. I just wish they would stop grouping marijuana in with hardened criminals and the truly bad drugs.

[Omega]

As for myself, I tried smoking cigarettes once and I hated it. I don't know how similar smoking pot is, but if its anything like smoking cigs, I think I'll just stay away from it. I don't need it anyways. Just hand me a beer and I'm good and happy! :)

You know, I might venture to say that eating Hershey's chocolate bars is more unhealthy than smoking pot. Would anyone agree with that? I'm not saying that thats what I believe, but who knows, I might be right?

Oh yea, the whole point of this post was simply to say, that I think some drugs, like pot, isn't what people tell you it is. I think our government has somewhat "brain washed" us, like with the whole "war on drugs" deal. I just think its doing more harm than it is good. Although, there are bad drugs out there that are harmful to you and in the right situation, to others as well. So it is kind of good that we fight those kind of drugs. I just wish they would stop grouping marijuana in with hardened criminals and the truly bad drugs.


I'm sure pot is like cig's to the extent that you're inhaling smoke. But if you do it from a water bong and the smoke is cooled first, I heard that it's a lot easier on the throat/lungs. There's still the risk of cancer, however, but the pathway of addiction can be erased in about two weeks (as opposed to nicotine, which never goes away, it just lessens slightly), and it has no long-term mental effects on fully developed brains, or physical effects (aside from the typical smoking side effects, albeit lessened if you do it from a bong).

Eating chocolate might be worse than smoking pot, might not be. I don't know. I'm sure that eating too much chocolate can cause cancer too, as well as clog arteries and maybe you'll stroke out. That wouldn't be good.

I definitely agree with the whole "Government Propaganda" deal. I read some articles on Salvia Divinorum (A legal hallucinogen), and most of the non-research articles were like "Oh, it's really ****in' dangerous. Stay away.", whereas the credible research shows that Salvia's no worse than weed. When smoked, the high lasts 5-20 minutes and can be really intense, but it has no mental side effects. Like weed, it's been used for many, many years. But again, the government/"news" sources skew the stories.

Hence why I use Erowid for drug information.

[Slug Toy]

As for myself, I tried smoking cigarettes once and I hated it. I don't know how similar smoking pot is, but if its anything like smoking cigs, I think I'll just stay away from it.

ill tell you this. cigarettes are nothing like pot. from my experiences, cigarettes give you a pretty instant head rush... and its quite intense trying to suck on those things. i really dont like them, and ive only ever touched one... the anti-cigarette movement is the only one i can get behind because theres just too much data about lots of carcinogens in those things.

pot is a very different, and delayed experience, and there are ways to take the intensity down... a bong for one, or a vaporizer. i dont want to get into that stuff though because... as much as making your own bong or vaporizer is modding... im pretty sure you cant do any overclocking with that stuff... except temporarily overclocking your mind. you can PM me if you want a good description of the things you can do. ill just leave it at this for now: pot is much more satisfying than cigarettes, and it doesnt have to be rough on your throat. you just need to know what you're doing.


There's still the risk of cancer, however, but the pathway of addiction can be erased in about two weeks (as opposed to nicotine, which never goes away, it just lessens slightly), and it has no long-term mental effects

im sure there IS a risk of cancer. everything causes cancer these days. i just take comfort in the fact that pot is generally an unaltered substance and about as natural as you can get. out of all the things you could chew or smoke, i think pot is at the bottom of the carcinogen list.

now as for the long term effects... i guess that depends on how long we're talking about. in terms of a lifetime... the overall effects are minimal at the worst. in terms of days or weeks... that whole short term memory loss cliche is true, and i still get random waves of trippy weightlessness in the days after a good high. it does go away though, once most of that stuff is out of your system. i say really stupid stuff for a while too. today at work, someone asked me why i would do something... i forget what, and i said "why WOULDN'T i do that is a more questionable answer." and then i just kind of paused because everyone realized it didnt make much sense at all.

i dont know about the addiction deal honestly. i do it because i like it... but i dont feel like i need to do it all the time. up until last night, i had gone for about two weeks without doing anything. mind you, i dont think im the type of person who is easily addicted to stuff. ive tried cigarettes and hated them, i dont like beer or alcohol very much but i drink occasionally, and i dont feel like i need pot every night, although it is pretty fun when you can talk to the darkness until you fall asleep.


You know, I might venture to say that eating Hershey's chocolate bars is more unhealthy than smoking pot. Would anyone agree with that?

i completely agree with this. chocolate makes my skin go insane, and it makes me feel really bleh after. that doesnt happen with pot. there is the burning out with pot, and if you do a lot, the next day feels really slow and hazy, but it doesnt have any negative effects like chocolate. in fact i usually sleep really well after doing some pot. the only downside to pot is the fact that you really get the munchies, and end up eating things you dont normally... ive cut out junk food for the sake of my body building, but every once in a while when im high i just eat all sorts of ****ty food because it tastes great... then i pay for it a couple days later when i get zits and such.

all in all, i stick to the idea that pot doesnt deserve its bad publicity.

[Zephik]

You know what I just thought of that made me laugh?

Pot is illegal, cigarettes are not.

You can't say that its because, well, pot is a drug and cigs aren't, because cigs ARE a drug. If anything, they are more of a drug that pot is!

You can always spill blatant lies out of your pie hole about pot, but you can also say that cigs aren't bad for you. When all is said and done, they are just lies and the truth will always get out there some way or another.

Okay, well, pot can possibly lead to more serious and possibly dangerous drugs. Well so could cigs right? So why doesn't cigs get that kind of rep? I wonder, maybe its because they aren't illegal whereas pot is?

I have a question, does pot affect you in a way as to impair you? Such as the affects of alcohol? Are they like cigs, were you CAN drive around, work with heavy machinery, etc etc. or is it like having one too many beers?

It's hard to separate the lies of the government from the truths of actual users. Its like, whats true and whats not you know?


"why WOULDN'T i do that is a more questionable answer."

That was the funniest thing I have ever read. Its even funnier, because I say dumb stuff like that ALL the time. AND I DON'T EVEN DO DRUGS! lol

Wise man says; Either get off drugs! or get on them!

[jdbnsn]

does pot affect you in a way as to impair you? Such as the affects of alcohol? Are they like cigs, were you CAN drive around, work with heavy machinery, etc etc. or is it like having one too many beers?


Don't buy into the hype that pot is harmless, it's not. Short-term problems of MJ use include similar effects as alcohol. THC effects the same receptors (cannibinoid receptors) which control memory, sensory perception, and coordinated movements all of which increase risk of motor vehicle accidents. Long term problems include 3-4 times increased risk of developing head or neck cancer (respiratory tract obviously), leads to same resp. diseases as tobacco, MJ smoke has between 50-70% MORE carcinogenic hydrocarbons than tobacco smoke, THC causes reduced activity of immune cells inviting opportunistic infections, chronic use causes delays in mental development and impair the learning process slowing intellectual progress and often lead to or exacerbate mental illnesses such as anxiety, depression, etc... Contrary to popular beliefs, MJ use does lead to dependancy and DOES produce withdrawl symptoms similar to opiate/sedative hypnotics though seemingly at lower intensities. Bottom line is it's a drug like any other, the legality is more of a political issue when compared to tobacco and alcohol than a public health issue.

[jdbnsn]

Slug, call me crazy but this forum may not be the best location to promote or publicize drug use or any other illegal activities. Read the handbook section pertaining to posting illegal materials and such...

[Slug Toy]

woops, ya i suppose my sense of inhibition was a little impaired. maybe ill answer that question tomorrow.

[calumc]

now i'm not taking either side on this but do you want to know why pot isn't legal? simply because it's too hard for governments to tax it, how can they make any money from it if you can grow it yourself?

[slytherock]

now i'm not taking either side on this but do you want to know why pot isn't legal? simply because it's too hard for governments to tax it, how can they make any money from it if you can grow it yourself?

Have you think of the possibility that legalizing imply a revolt from the dealers community? Who rule the government, presidents? Ministers? Money? ;)

[b4i7]

it was made illegal through propganda of companies that didnt want to lose there money because hemp was cheaper than what they were producing...

ill give the explanation i got in my history class later...for now...im off to work

[Omega]

Don't buy into the hype that pot is harmless, it's not. Short-term problems of MJ use include similar effects as alcohol. THC effects the same receptors (cannibinoid receptors) which control memory, sensory perception, and coordinated movements all of which increase risk of motor vehicle accidents. Long term problems include 3-4 times increased risk of developing head or neck cancer (respiratory tract obviously), leads to same resp. diseases as tobacco, MJ smoke has between 50-70% MORE carcinogenic hydrocarbons than tobacco smoke, THC causes reduced activity of immune cells inviting opportunistic infections, chronic use causes delays in mental development and impair the learning process slowing intellectual progress and often lead to or exacerbate mental illnesses such as anxiety, depression, etc... Contrary to popular beliefs, MJ use does lead to dependancy and DOES produce withdrawl symptoms similar to opiate/sedative hypnotics though seemingly at lower intensities. Bottom line is it's a drug like any other, the legality is more of a political issue when compared to tobacco and alcohol than a public health issue.


Jon's right. You don't really want to be behind the wheel or operating some machinery when you're high (one of my friends did it, it's not a good idea is all I'll say).

Yeah, everything has downsides. Weed just has milder/lesser downsides.


now i'm not taking either side on this but do you want to know why pot isn't legal? simply because it's too hard for governments to tax it, how can they make any money from it if you can grow it yourself?


Actually, the reason that it's illegal is, if I'm not mistaken, because there IS a tax on Marijuana/Hemp plants, but that tax can't be paid or something. I'm not too keen on the subject (but my mom is, she's really into knowing laws and the reasons for them), so I'll check it out a little more. I have a feeling, however, that the government made it illegal because pot dealers went underground though, meaning they could evade the tax. That's probably when the government retaliated with the law (which, as we can see, isn't exactly enforced. Woo. (but really, I don't give a flying ****)


it was made illegal through propganda of companies that didnt want to lose there money because hemp was cheaper than what they were producing...

ill give the explanation i got in my history class later...for now...im off to work


You know, that might be another viable explanation. God knows our government is corrupt enough as it is, so I wouldn't doubt that something really stupid like this has happened.

[nil8]

This isn't a pot discussion guys. It's a drug discussion.
I'm glad we're talking about a specific drug and really breaking it down because I'm a huge believer in legalization, but we're straying off into a realm that's not for TBCS.

If you want a good history of marijuana in America, I have a few documentaries to point you towards.
Some take the viewpoint of immigration, some take the viewpoint of industry, some take the viewpoint of depression-era economics. It's all about what you focus on when it comes to the historical debate.

If you want pro-marijuana information, check out www.norml.org
If you want anti-marijuana information, check out http://www.drugfree.org/Portal/Drug_Guide/Marijuana

Smoking anything is dangerous. Inhaling any smoke from burnt plant matter can be damaging to the throat and lungs.
It's one of the reasons I quit smoking.

Part of the reason pot is classified as worse is because it's not filtered or have any guideline regulations on the industry because it's illegal. The problem with touting facts is that the studies are often faulty because it's difficult to do scientific research on something that is, at best, a mediocre control. Not including the different feelings and reactions of people to the mild psychoactive properties.

This is why I don't say pot is better or worse. The simple truth is, we have decades of conflicting information and political agenda that has influenced the outcome of scientific research and until we can have a objective, non-political long-term study of marijuana, it's irrelevant to the debate.

The one aspect of MJ that isn't irrelevant is the medicinal properties.
Ingesting or smoking cannabis helps chemo patients with the nausea caused by their drug treatments and gives them appetite. I know that Marinol will be brought up, but if you look into case histories of Marinol, it's effectiveness is lacking compared to it's natural counterpart.

There have been many things said I would like to comment on, but it all comes down to this for me...
It's not my job to tell you what to do with your time and body, or judge you, or decide for you, or restrict you. My job is to take care and look after me. Unless you interfere with that in some way, enjoy your time how you see fit.

Yoga, learning, teaching, achieving goals, mowing my yard, playing with my dog, exercise, reading, understanding, thinking, cooking, spending time with people. These are my motivators and how I like to spend my time. That's what matters. Not if I'm drugged or not.

[slytherock]

Yoga, learning, teaching, achieving goals, mowing my yard, playing with my dog, exercise, reading, understanding, thinking, cooking, spending time with people. These are my motivators and how I like to spend my time. That's what matters. Not if I'm drugged or not.

Totally agree.
It's more about respect of others choice then being for or against it.
I've quit every drugs for about 10 years now (exept cigarette, alcool and girls) My best friend still taking alot right in front of me, and we're still my best friends.

One day my video teacher asked me: you look weird today Sly, what's going on. He knew me for 3 years, and that day I was different indeed.
I told him; You know, I'm straight today... That day I knew I had to stop.

I drugs rule your life, then it's bad.

[Airbozo]

...
I drugs rule your life, then it's bad.

If ANYTHING rules your life, then it is bad. All things in moderation.

You want a good history of Hemp and MJ, check out;

The Emperor Wears No Clothes (http://www.jackherer.com/chapters.html)

Did you know that at one time you could pay your taxes with Hemp?

As far as MJ being bad, it does have it's downsides. Currently where I live, Mexican nationals belonging to gangs and other organized criminal organizations have started setting up pot farms in the Santa Cruz mountains, close to my house. They clearcut sections of the redwood forests, plant their crops and then run irrigation lines from nearby creeks and streams. They use commercial herbicides and pest control chemicals that then leech back into the soil and streams causing the death of salmon and other species of fish, birds, small mammals, lizards and birds. One couple was beaten, when they happened to stumble across one of these farms while the caretakers where there. They were hospitalized and released with no permanent injuries. One DEA official was shot in the arm (or leg, don't remember now), during a recent bust. They caught that guy, but most get away and move on to another area.


Back to Crimsons original thought for this thread;

I am getting my high on by traveling to Europe for the next 10 days... Good people, great Beer and Cider, wonderful food and fantastic scenery! Nothing like that buzz!

[nil8]

Where are you off to AB? Sounds great.

The Emporer Wears No Clothes is a great book.
For those of us who really like to dig into the political aspects of drugs, I have one for you.
"Drug Hate and the Corruption of American Justice"
http://www.amazon.com/Drug-Hate-Corruption-American-Justice/dp/0275959562

[xRyokenx]

Good point there Minty. Not only should we be looking at eating more natural, less processed foods, but for those it applies to, we should also be looking at organic drugs too. :D

Makes sense though. Processed stuff only ever makes me feel like crap. I had a Snapple (the high fructose corn syrup) and I feel like crap. No more of that thankee very much.

[jdbnsn]

Fair enough Minty:

Cannibinoid receptor function and physiology of agonism-
Herkenham M, Lynn A, Little MD, Johnson MR, et al. Cannabinoid receptor localization in the brain. Proc Natl Acad Sci, USA 87(5):1932-1936, 1990

cannibinoid agonist withdrawl research-
Rodriguez de Fonseca F, et al. Activation of cortocotropin-releasing factor in the limbic system during cannabinoid withdrawal. Science 276(5321):2050-2054, 1997.

and

Diana M, Melis M, Muntoni AL, et al. Mesolimbic dopaminergic decline after cannabinoid withdrawal. Proc Natl Acad Sci 95(17):10269-10273, 1998.


Myocardial Infarction (heart attack) risk increase from THC use
Mittleman MA, Lewis RA, Maclure M, et al. Triggering myocardial infarction by marijuana. Circulation 103(23):2805-2809, 2001.

respiratory illness risks
Tashkin DP. Pulmonary complications of smoked substance abuse. West J Med 152(5):525-530, 1990.

incidence of squamous cell carcinoma in head and neck
Zhang ZF, Morgenstern H, Spitz MR, et al. Marijuana use and increased risk of squamous cell carcinoma of the head and neck. Cancer Epidemiology, Biomarkers & Prevention 8(12):1071-1078, 1999.

carcinogenic content of MJ smoke
Sridhar KS, Raub WA, Weatherby, NL Jr., et al. Possible role of marijuana smoking as a carcinogen in the development of lung cancer at a young age. Journal of Psychoactive Drugs 26(3):285-288, 1994.

Hoffman D, Brunnemann KD, Gori GB, et al. On the carcinogenicity of marijuana smoke. In: VC Runeckles, ed, Recent Advances in Phytochemistry. New York. Plenum, 1975.

ETC...

You can look up the rest for yourself, do a pub-med search and you'll find lots of good research that clearly shows MJ smoke to be far less harmless as popular counterculture would like to admit. I'm not going to argue the relative dangers or evils of MJ vs any other drug, but bottom line is, if you think pot is harmless you are in denial and deluding yourself with disinformation.

[nil8]

And now we're hitting a nerve of the drug debate.
The real dangers of drugs.

The notion of research(which can be biased), or the idea of subjective experience of the user(which is 100% biased).

Most of us will say that smoking cigarettes carry a risk of developing lung or throat cancer. Why would you think smoking anything else wouldn't carry the same risk? It's lighting something on fire and sucking it into your lungs. When that's plant matter, it contains tar and a bunch of fun things called carcinogens.
It's the risk you take, and it's your choice. Just don't delude yourself into thinking that it'll never cause you problems. It's still smoking something.

There's lots of research, but not all of it is credible. That's not to say it's intentional, but this is not something that the government sanctions often or gives much real exploration towards. Preconception is a powerful force, and an extremely slow one to be removed from medicine or science.

Pasteurization is a prime example. Louis Pasteur was chastised openly by the intellectuals of his time about it, even though he was right and we now embrace it as a normal, practical, useful technique. In his day he was laughed at and put down over something that they were blatantly wrong about. Could it be the same about marijuana consumption? Possibly. Could it cause real damage? Possibly.

The answer I've found the most useful is we don't know because we're not allowed to fully study it. I want to see the same amount of studies done on tobacco done for marijuana, but it will never happen.

Oh, and just because something is from nature does NOT make it more healthy. Early poisons were extracted from plants and animals. Not healthy at all. Very dangerous.

Since science with all of it's errors and misgivings has come up with viable solutions in the forms of health people have been living longer, healthier lives.
Be amazed that you really shouldn't live past 50, but you do, and can, and know a lot of people who will because of modern medicine. Don't ignore the last several hundred years of advancement just because it went from holisitic/religious to pharmalogical.

Modern medicine gets a lot right. A lot. A hell of a lot more than most of us give it credit for because to us it's normal.
Look at TB. Or Smallpox. Or HIV. Even the small stuff, like allergies.
Medicine does great things. GREAT things.
It still has problems and shortcomings and always will. Accept it for what it is and what it's not.
Ultimately, it's still your decision to pop that pill in your mouth, no matter if it thins your blood, stops the sniffles or lets you explore inner space.

Oh, and the reason they stopped using plants for most of their pharmacological base is because of lack of control of the quality. It's much easier to get quality out of something that is chemically created or modified than something that isn't.

Tony, you're pre-diabetic. You think you'd learn you can't drink lots of refined sugars without feeling bad. You think you'd learn to listen to your body.

Don't even get me started on organic. That's a whole different beast and one that I slay on a regular basis because I know a lot of people who buy into it.

Summary:
Medicine is a good thing. It makes people live longer.
Natural is not always better.
Life is about dangerous choices. Choose your danger and deal with the repercussions.

[xRyokenx]

Well, I mustn't have thought what I had said through well enough. Of course nature can be more deadly too... thanks for the correction Nil. I'm with Minty, I'm done posting in this thread, mainly because I have no clue in hell as to what I'm talking about, lol. Different stuff affects different people in different ways. There we go. A statement that points out not much of anything at all, lol... or so it seems...

EDIT: I've learned to stay away from the high fructose corn syrup (and everything similar). I felt fine after drinking a Snapple and all of a sudden, BAM! I felt like crap and didn't start to feel better for a couple hours. Organic food (that is produced in a safe way) is much better than (most) artificial/processed shtuff. My uncles all are moving toward more natural and healthy food (two on my dad's side and one on my mom's) and I'm going to try to use their example to help myself. Still struggling to move away from junk, but this will build character, doing something that's hard to do, and doing something to help myself, both of which I've had problems doing. In other news, I just signed up for my classes today for college. Just some basic ones, so nothing of real interest. Next semester and next year I get the cool stuff. I do have to say though, it's gonna be nice to be continuing school and all the guys in the computer department are really cool. They have parts there to play around with and put PCs together, get running, removable HDDs to use for programming, OS troubleshooting, etc. I'm gonna have an interesting couple years ahead. College: 1 High School: -53.2 I no longer look at high school as meaning much of anything. I learned stuff, had a tough time, hated it (for the most part) and am now moving onward.

Tutorial Complete (well, as much of one as I had gotten, still have much to learn. When do you stop figuring stuff out in games? Never.)

Welcome to Level 1 in this crazy ass game called "Real Life"

EDIT: I've also noticed that a lot of my opinions (well... not really, more of "thoughts") of/on things are biased and not thought through well enough. Well, that or very uninformed. Time to take that walk I've been meaning to take. (You know what I'm talking about Nil8, lol, I've been given the advice, time to use it, so long as it doesn't "rain like hell")

[Airbozo]

OK, had to interject some humor;

Anyone remember "Caveman" with Ringo Starr? Where they shove the weed bush in the T-rex's mouth? hehehe (pretty sure it was cannabis)

How About the scene in "Up In Smoke" where they are driving the van (after it caught on fire), and got pulled over by the cop? Can I help you? You gonna drink that?

That '70's Show, The circle?

#1 cash crop in California? Yep! KGB!

It was once estimated that if MJ was legalized and taxed, it would put _every_ county that grew it in the black over night.

I am searching for the story of the guy who purchased the tax stamps for weed, just so he could own them, and then the DEA showed up at his door, looking for his drugs. Turns out the guy had none and had not smoked in 10+ years (or so he says). This created a legal mess since there is a law on the books that would prevent the DEA from using the tax revenue information to target criminals...

Here is a pic of some tax stamps;
woops picture too big... (just check out the site below)

...From this site;
http://www.milwaukeephilatelic.org/HenakHome/Exhibit.htm

[jdbnsn]

Don't worry, I am not insulted. You asked a fair question, "where do you get your information?" and I obliged. Now I would ask any of the folks claiming the safety and control of MJ to cite their resources. Science is not flawed, it never makes claims that are not supported by hard evidence. The problems arise when scientific data and conclusions are interpreted as making inferences. For example, I posted multiple sources that prove MJ smoke contains even more carcinogens than tobacco. This doesn't prove that MJ smoke is bad for you, that is leading data to make a conclusion. I have looked extensively into the MJ debate from both sides, as an ex-user I have motivations to want to believe it's less harmful. At the end of the day, I am forced to conclude that there is far more damage than benefit from the use or abuse of any drug. Keep in mind as well, choosing the "lesser of two evils" is still choosing evil. There is always a third option which is to think for yourself and sacrifice pleasure for integrity and health. I love a good debate, so don't take my words as a backlash, just an answer.

[Redundant]

I seem to have brought way too much life to this thread.

am i to assume that you've ONLY been around people who were under the influence, and not high yourself?
I do not take, experiment, or touch drugs or alcohol from these people. I merely listen, say something occasionally, and try to categorize their acts and emotions. It's actually an experiment to me. Think of me as a monitor like in Halo. (bad example, I know...) I do not want to become a psychiatrist though; much too boring. :rolleyes:


i CAN give you a good reason to take drugs. medicinal reasons... glaucoma, cancer, arthritis... all painful and debilitating diseases that you can get relief from through medicinal marijuana.
I'd like to keep my conclusions simple:
-Illegal drugs are bad for you and some legal ones are too.
-Perscription drugs are beneficial when used PROPERLY.
-About "medical marijuana": Doctors should be able to extract the pain relieving chemicals from the plant and put it in a pill if it's so useful; smoking anything is not good for your lungs.


ill tell you why you shouldnt tell people what to do. they tend to get supremely pissed off.
Sorry about that; bad habit. But it's not as bad as drugs! :rolleyes:

Ok, this was my final post for this thread. I apologize for the raucous I caused, mods. :redface:
Good Evening.

[Airbozo]

No raucous at all. Just a bunch of (very polite in my opinion) people expressing their views on things. If you cannot handle a disagreement or differing point of view from time to time, you better step off the planet now.

(side note, they have extracted the THC from MJ, but it is WAY more expensive than the real thing to dispense to patients and it is still illegal.)

Funny to watch the California vs federal government fight on the Medical MJ law...

[jdbnsn]

I agree, as long as no one is promoting crime or potentially incriminating themselves this has been a very interesting exchange of ideas. That's almost never a bad thing.

[Slug Toy]

I agree, as long as no one is promoting crime or potentially incriminating themselves

haha, ya... that was a close one for me last night. i will say no more about that.


-About "medical marijuana": Doctors should be able to extract the pain relieving chemicals from the plant and put it in a pill if it's so useful; smoking anything is not good for your lungs.

there isnt a pain killer in pot. its the thc that just makes you forget about pain, or really any other sensation. if you suddenly become aware of a sensation though, pot tends to amplify it. it always feels like my heart is racing.. but it isnt, its just the heightened awareness acting on me.


Sorry about that; bad habit. But it's not as bad as drugs!

Ok, this was my final post for this thread. I apologize for the raucous I caused, mods.
Good Evening.

dont worry about it. i didnt take offense. im just warning you point blank that i dont like being told what to do, and im sure others dont like it either. now, if you had gone all hitler-esque on the subject, that would be a different matter.


does pot affect you in a way as to impair you?

ok, i was trying to answer this last night, but failed miserably. ill try again. bottom line is i dont feel that pot impairs me. i still have a very clear grasp of whats going on. everything still makes sense in your mind, but theres some sort of communication breakdown between your mind and your body. IF you try driving, you can actually focus fairly well, and my friends have no trouble driving while high. i wouldnt try it, because i tend to be on the more extreme side of crazy while high.

now, as for those people that have backed out of this debate... come on back guys. i like listening to other people, and also enjoy responding. the more view points, the better. just because you've made your point doesnt mean you have to leave. stick around for some rebuttal action now.

[xRyokenx]

I just backed out because I don't feel experienced enough... well, that or that I've thought my ideas out enough... to continue voicing myself in this discussion. I need some time to cool down after current events. For some reason it seems as though I can never allow myself to be happy for too long, I'm always ****ing up my view on life somehow. Always.

[jdbnsn]

As for the use of medical MJ, I am not sure if it's been used for pain control. Like Slug said, it seems to enhance many sensations and in my opinion that includes pain. Medical MJ is usually prescribed for chemo patients because the chemo induces marked nausea which can linger for long periods eventually leading to mild malnurishment. The MJ tends to supress the nausea and increase the patient's appetite, but I don't know how well it would work as a pain reliever.

[b4i7]

woo whoo appetite increase...thats always fun

as far as pain...it lowers your sense of pain...like being drunk..

[jdbnsn]

Didn't know that, interesting and useful for a chemo pt.

BTW Minty, if you want help with smoking cessation then feel free to contact me. I have quit myself and can offer some advice that may help.

[Slug Toy]

The MJ tends to supress the nausea and increase the patient's appetite, but I don't know how well it would work as a pain reliever.


as far as pain...it lowers your sense of pain...like being drunk..

ya... its really hard to describe. it just makes you forget. any new feeling will creep up on you and hit pretty hard, but with a bit of experience you can get over the shock of it.

[b4i7]

yeah.....what slug said...

[Crimson Sky]

To be honest, I believe from first hand knowledge that chronic mj use makes people uninteresting, unfunny, unmotivated and self absorbed. But I'll wholeheartedly support it for med use, without a second thought.

[Crazy Buddhist]

As for my drug free, alcohol free life, gaming really relives stress. As an added bonus, it's legal!

The gaming increases endorphin production in your brain. You are drugging yourself, getting high, on brain chemistry thats all.

Does your drug free life mean you never drink tea or coffee and never eat chocolate? - all have strong mind altering chemicals in them.


You can look up the rest for yourself, do a pub-med search and you'll find lots of good research that clearly shows MJ smoke to be far less harmless as popular counterculture would like to admit. I'm not going to argue the relative dangers or evils of MJ vs any other drug, but bottom line is, if you think pot is harmless you are in denial and deluding yourself with disinformation.

Did you find any scientific papers on the dangers of Hash-Brownies?


Do you have any idea how many people die unnecessarily each year from drugs?!

Yes. Less than die through deciding to drive too fast for an adrenalin buzz. They also tend to take out fewer innocent bystanders.

[xRyokenx]

Yes. Less than die through deciding to drive too fast for an adrenalin buzz. They also tend to take out fewer innocent bystanders.
I agree there. I've almost been killed while riding my bike too many times for my liking... well, one is too many, but it's been many more than that. I'm starting to drive and I'm enjoying myself, it's something new that I find I'm actually good at (like I still don't want to believe, lol) and enjoy, except for the idiot driver part that I haven't dealt with too much yet, but we'll see...

[Durrthock]

Drugs suck my anti drug is on Sundays when I get to shoot my 357 magnum :evil:

[jdbnsn]

Did you find any scientific papers on the dangers of Hash-Brownies?

No I didn't, though I didn't search extensively. From what I have read it appears that most of the negative physical health effects come from the burning of MJ. The smoke is quite toxic despite popular claims of it being "natural" (BTW, Hemlock is completely natural and doesn't need to be smoked to produce it's famous effect). Though I have seen very little in terms of ingested THC effects, and I would expect they would be very difficult to isolate. If I were to make a guess, I would say that it is relatively benign with possible increased incidence of G.I. carcinoma but many of the psychological effects of addiction remain valid (i.e. decreased motivation, increased depression and misc mental health problems, missed work days, etc...).

[nil8]

It's surprisingly difficult to find good studies on the ingestion of marijuana and it's side effects.

Well, as long as we have this still going and we have an actual medical professional here, let me ask about psilocybin.

I know you can't take it if you are using an MAOI, can I ask why? Also, what are the side effects if ingestion does occur in a user taking MAOI's?

I have a good grasp on the basic psychotropic properties of psilocybin, but not the side or after effects. As far as I've seen, I can't find any study citing permanent physical or neurological damage, just some altered abilities for a few days after consumption.

Still, if you would be so kind, I would like some reference material/source material on the subject that isn't slanted towards the pro-psilocybe movement. Propaganda is hard to spot when you only know one side.

[jdbnsn]

MAOI's inhibit the breakdown of monoamines (single nitrogen amino acids) which causes bursts of marked elevated blood pressure (hypertensive crisis). The exact mechanism is not clearly understaood to my knowledge but what is well understood is the cross-reaction of taking MAOI's with dietary tryptophan or tyramine compounds while on MAOI's (commonly cause "wine and cheese" or "cheese syndrome"). Your blood pressure spikes and down you go. Another complication of MAOI and LSD-like CNS toxin synergy is called serotonin synddrome (do a quick wiki read up on this) which is the most likely intercation caused by MAOI's and "shrooms". As for experience and research, I have personally seen several cases of LSD and shroom toxicity, however since these were patients and not studies their details are protected from discussion. There are actually suprisingly few documented fatalities from mushroom ingestion (I don't know why this is because they are chemically far more reactive than MJ) and though the full effects of psilocybin abuse are very difficult to predict, the chemistry is not. Here is a list of reputable studies into mushroom medicine:

Bickel M, Ditting T, Watz H, et al: Severe rhabdomyolysis, acute renal failure and posterior encephalopathy after 'magic mushroom' abuse. Eur J Emerg Med 2005 Dec; 12(6): 306-8

Borowiak KS, Ciechanowski K, Waloszczyk P: Psilocybin mushroom (Psilocybe semilanceata) intoxication with myocardial infarction. J Toxicol Clin Toxicol 1998; 36(1-2): 47-9

Brvar M, Mozina M, Bunc M: Prolonged psychosis after Amanita muscaria ingestion. Wien Klin Wochenschr 2006 May; 118(9-10): 294-7

Clilton WS: The chemistry and mode of action of mushroom toxins. In: Spoerke DG, Rumack BH, eds. Handbook of Mushroom Poisoning. 2nd ed. CRC Press, LLC; 1994:165-223

Goldfrank L, Flomenbaum N, Lewin N: Goldfrank's Toxicologic Emergencies. 4th ed. Appleton & Lange; 1990:575-85

Hanes KR: Serotonin, psilocybin, and body dysmorphic disorder: a case report. J Clin Psychopharmacol 1996 Apr; 16(2): 188-9

Hyde C, Glancy G, Omerod P, et al: Abuse of indigenous psilocybin mushrooms: a new fashion and some psychiatric complications. Br J Psychiatry 1978 Jun; 132: 602-4

McPartland JM, Vilgalys RJ, Cubeta MA: Mushroom poisoning. Am Fam Physician 1997 Apr; 55(5): 1797-800, 1805-9, 1811-2

Raff E, Halloran PF, Kjellstrand CM: Renal failure after eating "magic" mushrooms. CMAJ 1992 Nov 1; 147(9): 1339-41

Rimsza ME, Moses KS: Substance abuse on the college campus. Pediatr Clin North Am 2005 Feb; 52(1): 307-19, xii

[LiTHiUM0XiD3]

i shall not bash at all... but pot rules.... ive been round the block.... coke.... ecstasy.... acid... hell u name it ive done it..... all them.... fun yes... but stupid.... rots ya from the inside... i personaly wont touch chemicals anymore
ive seen how addictive they r first hand...
i wont even drink cuz i know how stupid i get.... but pot... pot is my thing
i will prolly keep smokin it till the day i die....
i fully believe in its medical use too...
me personaly i have sever anger issues.... i use it to calm me down and keep me level heaeded so i can make proper decisions..
and yes BC bud is the best to get heh
for all who thinks its some evil dirty thing... open your eyes.... for all with an open mind..... thank u for being real bout things
most things r good with moderation..
this is my bit... party.... smoke.... work.... drink... do w/e u want
its all about havin a good time
never take life tooo seriously..... u wont make it out alive anyways lolz
pzout

[jdbnsn]

This has been quite interesting, and it's time for me to get off the medical soap-box. To any of you who may feel insulted or that think I am speaking with a condescending tone, here is my point. I have no problem at all with people choosing to do what ever they want with their lives, my job in medicine is to help them understand clearly what the consequences MAY be, not to lead their desicions. I have battled with addiction for over 1/3 of my life and the drug use in my past hasn't made my life easy, but if I could go back and do it over I wouldn't. Regardless of which type of government we all live under, we all have the same freedom to subscribe to or stand in defiance of the laws based on our own judgement and strength of will. The only thing that differs from one region to another will be the legal consequences, the reality of the health impact is uniform. I have never believed it to be better to supress people's free will vs eduucate them about their choices and let them decide. And that is my point, the reality of drugs is that there are consequences, period. We all do things that aren't healthy and we all must face those choices, just do yourself a favor and never be satisfied with rhetoric, observe the facts.

[Crazy Buddhist]

And that is my point, the reality of drugs is that there are consequences, period. We all do things that aren't healthy and we all must face those choices, just do yourself a favor and never be satisfied with rhetoric, observe the facts.

Well said.

one last quick question:

.. GI carcinomas .... so THC (unsmoked) is a known carcinogen?

[Crazy Buddhist]

It's surprisingly difficult to find good studies on the ingestion of marijuana and it's side effects.

Shall we do one?

[jdbnsn]

To my knowledge THC itself is not carcinogenic, nor is it the primary reason for concern in MJ smoking or ingestion. There are many compounds in MJ that are harmful, but those that are probably the most devastating are pesticides and processing contaminants. In an ironic twist, it's extremely rare to find untainted MJ because of the lack of federal regulation.

[nil8]

Thanks for the medical info jd. I've looked up some of these studies and I'm currently in the process of reading through and understanding them.
I'm not a medical professional, so some of the info is a bit out of my league, but it's not hard to find out what they mean.

I have to admit, I'm somewhat suprised about the idea of processing contaminants or pesticide use on MJ, but I'm sure for most operations this is true. Still, I hold this idea of the shoeless hippy growing and selling, even though I know it's a business, albeit illegal, and that creates situations where distribution networks are done by real criminals, who don't care about anyone's health. Similar to what AB is seeing in his part of the world.

[DaveW]

Wow...I lost this conversation a while ago. I'm glad to see it's still going as a mature discussion, because last time I checked we were thinking of closing it to stop it going out of control.

Again, TBCS has proven it's ability to have an intelligent discussion about a complex subject. I salute you guys...seriously, well done. Anywhere else, this thread would be locked at page 2 because of the flaming. Considering that we're much more strict here about touchy/illegal subjects...well, you done me proud! :D

-Dave

[slytherock]

Yeah, but this green fluorecent butter is not my idea of a good cooking. No joke,it almost glow in the dark :D
But the effects wanted are there...

[Crazy Buddhist]

I have to admit, I'm somewhat suprised about the idea of processing contaminants or pesticide use on MJ, but I'm sure for most operations this is true. Still, I hold this idea of the shoeless hippy growing and selling, even though I know it's a business, albeit illegal, and that creates situations where distribution networks are done by real criminals, who don't care about anyone's health.

OK Europe is different to US/Canada but here it is like this now:

Drug laws have driven the drug trade largely into the hands of ever more violent criminal gangs. The Hippie and the Rastafarian hardly get a look in these days its - all Triads, Yakuza and Yardies and they do not give a crap and are carrying heavy weaponry.

There is a major secondary crime now in my part of London whereby the British criminal gangs are picking off the Triad growing houses and nicking their stash. They do quick in and outs, having watched the house for days to establish patterns, and they do not go in unless they have people with machine guns (plural) backing them up.

These criminals want to create the strongest high at the lowest cost and have no regards for others and no moral scruples. They are quite happy to sell you highly contaminated MJ. The way much MJ is grown now involves huge amounts of fertiliser and other organic chemicals often delivered direct to the plant root in water - "hydroponic growing". Burning this mix of organo-phosphate chemicals and inhaling it is a bad idea.

The processing can be worse - especially with low grade Hashish which may contain stinging nettles, talcum powder, recycled tractor tyres or any number of other materials to bulk it out.

The latest nightmare in the UK is that these gangs are now selling their weed after spraying it with a solution of sugar water containing finely ground glass particles. This leaves the material looking as though it is coated with shiny THC crystals, tempting the punter, but ultimately ensuring with every toke he inhales a micro-powder of red hot glass into his throat and lungs.

This is a recent (last four months) development in the market and there has been a marked increase in presentations at Accident and Emergency depts of hospitals with respiratory problems after smoking MJ.

[progbuddy]

Go to Busch Gardens and ride Griffon. That's about the biggest adrenaline rush I've ever had :p.

Drugs are really just a stress reliever, or are at least when perceived by the mind of a drug user. In reality, however, drugs cause manic depression, addictions, deaths, and overall increase your stress levels.

I just don't see a point in them.

[slytherock]

Go to Busch Gardens and ride Griffon. That's about the biggest adrenaline rush I've ever had :p

Try Skydiving, then forget about Busch gardens ;)

aIwukCSEhtQ

[DaveW]

What Crazy says above is very true, we have major problems like this in Glasgow. There's never been anything officially announced, but anyone with two pieces of **** for a brain can work out what's been going on from the way people keep getting killed.

-Dave

[b4i7]

anyone with two pieces of **** for a brain


dangit....i only have one piece :(

[Crazy Buddhist]

dangit....i only have one piece :(

I can lend you one but I can't guarrantee it won't have been overclocked

[Slug Toy]

These criminals want to create the strongest high at the lowest cost and have no regards for others and no moral scruples. They are quite happy to sell you highly contaminated MJ. The way much MJ is grown now involves huge amounts of fertiliser and other organic chemicals often delivered direct to the plant root in water - "hydroponic growing". Burning this mix of organo-phosphate chemicals and inhaling it is a bad idea.

not to nitpick, but fertilizing has no effect on what you smoke. plants are already a nice little package of organo-phosphate chemicals... and many other things. fertilizer just gets you bigger plants, and possibly more potent ones too. hydroponic growing is probably one of the biggest steps forward for gardening in general. thats how a lot of lettuce is done these days. you just get much better results because you can control nutrients a lot easier.

it really is too bad that people feel the need to throw harmful things into the mix. its already illegal enough... dont take it down a further notch!!! people that do that crap are going to ruin it for the rest of us. its kind of like on the school playground with that one jack ass that has to ruin the soccer game because "everyone plays or no one plays".


THC is fat soluable. Now, I am no culinary person, medical person, or biologist-type person, but I know that in order to really see the effects of ingestion without ingestng mass quantities of the actual plant and making yourself sick (just from the sheer amount of plant matter in your stomach), you need to essentially "boil" the plant in butter, to draw the thc out. I would then use THAT butter to cook with. It is far more effective that way, and requires less actual plant. + the plant itself tastes disgusting...

thats actually pretty common knowledge i think. thats THE first thing i learned about cooking with it... you always simmer it in butter for a while first, and then use the butter. i think you could figure that out on your own though because the plant really IS horrible. i had some crumbly bits on my hand one time and licked them off... that sucked.

[Omega]

I also remember reading an article about UK MJ dealers spraying glass powder on their crops to increase the weight and make it look like high-grade tree. I would imagine that smoking glass can't be good for you.

[Crazy Buddhist]

not to nitpick, but fertilizing has no effect on what you smoke. plants are already a nice little package of organo-phosphate chemicals... and many other things. fertilizer just gets you bigger plants, and possibly more potent ones too. hydroponic growing is probably one of the biggest steps forward for gardening in general. thats how a lot of lettuce is done these days. you just get much better results because you can control nutrients a lot easier.

It does have an effect. The water content in the plant is awash with raw chemicals when the crop is harvested. These chemical nutrients are industrially manufactured. Good growers flush their plants out with pure water for a few days at the end of the growing cycle. Most don't and you smoke them along with your weed.

[Slug Toy]

It does have an effect. The water content in the plant is awash with raw chemicals when the crop is harvested. These chemical nutrients are industrially manufactured. Good growers flush their plants out with pure water for a few days at the end of the growing cycle. Most don't and you smoke them along with your weed.

but biologically that makes no sense at all. all cells have regulatory systems in place to control solute levels selectively. this system as a whole should limit nutrient and water uptake all the way down to the roots. even that rinsing cycle wouldnt take solutes out of a plant. it takes solute away from the soil around the roots, and encourages water uptake in the plant, but doesnt force solute out of the plant to a significant extent. if plant likes, plant shall keep.

even if this does affect what you actually find in plants, i wouldnt think its an issue. fertilizers make plants grow better, meaning the substances arent harmful. if a fertilizer made a plant die.. well id make a point of not eating that plant. if the plant is alright though, you should be alright to eat it or do whatever you want with it. so you might end up eating some nitrates and phosphates... guess what... you can use them too! what are we made of? now, hormone addition is another thing though, but im not up to date on what plant hormones do to animals.

lets just put it this way. you eat things right?

[Crazy Buddhist]

... soil around the roots ...

There is no soil around the roots in hydroponic growing - the method under question here. The roots lay in a solution of water and chemical fertiliser - the technique is like force feeding - similar to force feeding geese to make fois gras. I know that doesn't alter the basic chemistry/biology and you are probably completely right on it - I think you know more about those subjects than I. But perhaps growing in a solute rich solution does trigger differences in the cell regulation mechanisms?

I know of growers who do wash their crops as described and for the reasons described and are adamant it makes a big difference to toxicity.

There must be a point where the chemical nutrients are in the plant and on their way to being used - perhaps the physical dynamics of osmosis are different when growing hydroponically as opposed to in soil and this has an effect?

[nil8]

For those of us who aren't botanists...

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hydroponic

I've never tried growing anything hydroponically. I wonder how well tomatoes grow. I am sick of store tomatoes in the winter vs fresh in the summer, and canned tomatoes don't even come close.

[b4i7]

we had a little section in my tech class about hydroponics back about 5 or so years ago.... pretty interesting stuff

[Crazy Buddhist]

I wonder how well tomatoes grow

Very well. Quite a lot of tomato production in Europe is going hydroponic. It seems to not produce tasty tomatoes though ... but then anything other than homegrowing them seems to do that ...

[Slug Toy]

There is no soil around the roots in hydroponic growing - the method under question here. The roots lay in a solution of water and chemical fertiliser - the technique is like force feeding - similar to force feeding geese to make fois gras. I know that doesn't alter the basic chemistry/biology and you are probably completely right on it - I think you know more about those subjects than I. But perhaps growing in a solute rich solution does trigger differences in the cell regulation mechanisms?


ya i forgot that we were still talking about hydroponics. my statement still applies though. once nutrients are in, they tend to stay in. water is the main thing that goes in and out. couple that with the transpiration pull, and not only do nutrients stay in, they move up relentlessly.

it wouldnt really trigger differences in cell mechanisms. as flexible as life is, the basic functions involved are very specific and rigid.

now heres the interesting thing. you may or may not have noticed a pattern by now. hydroponics, being forced growth, are meant for quantity, not quality. in terms of vegetables... that means bland tomatoes and such, but lettuce like i mentioned earlier is perfectly suited to this because it really has no flavor to begin with. in terms of drugs, you can treat it like lettuce as well. it doesnt matter how a marijuana plant may grow because certain things are already predetermined genetically. it will be just as potent under any condition. the only difference is the rate of growth, which is where hydroponics shine versus soil.


perhaps the physical dynamics of osmosis are different when growing hydroponically as opposed to in soil and this has an effect?

the physical dynamics stay the same. rates and potentials increase dramatically though. this sort of thing cant be explained very easily unless you have basically a 1st or 2nd year university biology background. it gets very complex... and even i dont understand everything about it in the conventional sense.

[Crazy Buddhist]

... this sort of thing cant be explained very easily unless you have basically a 1st or 2nd year university biology background ...

I dropped out of University where I was studying Physics because I found the course too slow and boring. I intuitively understand the stuff behind it pretty well because it's basically applied mathematics.

Yet I can't be bothered to understand the specifics of it to any degree. This is because the subject has no practical use in mylife and at this moment in time I am too interested in how DeskPooter will look with a glass top and UV lighting inside of her as a standalone piece of work and whether or not this will be better than reconstructing the whole desk. :D

[Elenril]

I get my highs from trying to find my way through the tunnels in Sydney.

If anyone has tried to drive through Sydney's tunnels, or even its freeways, you'll understand what I mean. There are about 5 signs pointing to 7 exits to the same suburb, and none of the exits actually lead to that suburb. It's like that for about 5 miles, and that's only the tunnel. As I rediscovered today, it really gives you an adrenalin rush trying to find the right exit to get to Bondi, which is labelled Randwick, and not to go through the exit labelled Bondi to end up in Newcastle.

/hijack

[Ichbin]

Let's see.....my highs are explaining that if you need drugs to make you happy, then you are truelly a pathetic individual.

Here's some word of advice for all the chaps out there...

The only time something affects your emotionally is if you allow it to affect you emotionaly.

Oh, i also like making cakes. ^.^

[Slug Toy]

Let's see.....my highs are explaining that if you need drugs to make you happy, then you are truelly a pathetic individual.

and how about if you dont NEED drugs to be happy, but like the feelings and ideas you come up with while high?

id be careful there, because you're getting dangerously close to saying something that would piss me off. lumping everyone in as pathetic individuals is not fair at all. theres plenty of people who do drugs, and are quite productive and happy.

i at least hope you're speaking from experience, because if not, who are you to judge? from my experience, the people who get addicted BECOME pathetic individuals because it ruins them. the recreational user is by no means pathetic. me and my friends do pot about once a week. im on my way to starting my jewelry business, one friend is moving up the ladder in interactive arts, and many others have good summer jobs while they are off from school. are we pathetic? id like to think not.

ultimately, people who accuse others of being low-lifes without experience or proof to back it up are saying "i think im better than you, and i feel the need to reinforce this." or at least thats how it feels to the people being preached to.

[Ichbin]

Im saying the people that get high cause "I lost my job" or "I got dumped"

To get high/drunk as a "Hole-filler" is completly anti-productive and destructive.

If it's purely recreation, honestly, as long as your not bothering me, I'm fine.

[Slug Toy]

ok, i see now. just be careful because those singular statements leave a lot to interpretation... and interpretation is a dangerous thing.

[Crazy Buddhist]

To get high/drunk as a "Hole-filler" is completly anti-productive and destructive.

You are absolutely right I agree. But saying it doesn't cure the problem: People fall into such negative patterns because their lives seem hopeless and boring and with no way out. Often this is because as children they were not raised in an appropriate way that empowered them with the knowledge that their life is theirs and no-one elses.

They therefore lack the basic sense of OK-ness that people with an appropriate upbringing have - and if inside they lack this basic feeling of OK-ness they are incapable of leading OK lives - they just don't have the right sensory feedback to do so.

It's a tricky and troublesome area. And many lives are ruined through this sort of behavior and just as many through a lack of understanding of it. The subtleties of the human mind are little understood and blanket statements from either side that encompass huge areas of grey into black-camp or white-camp are rarely useful of helpful to anyone.

Matthew

[xRyokenx]

That's part of the mindset I'm working on getting out of, I seem to have hit a patch where I believe I can do whatever I want but am too nervous or lazy to, usually the latter. I'm doing what I can to get out of the old mindset and into the new, I just have to start building up confidence, what little I have (in big crowds usually, I can't stand being around a huge crowd) would get destroyed if I started drugs or frequent drinking, to hell with that stuff... not helpful to the current situation.

[Crazy Buddhist]

That's part of the mindset I'm working on getting out of, I seem to have hit a patch where I believe I can do whatever I want but am too nervous or lazy to, usually the latter.

I think your attitude to this is wise and healthy. If you can examine what happens to your mind in those moments of being nervous or lazy you may start to dissolve the blocks that remain in the way of your progress.

Keep at it. You are walking a good walk.

Matthew

[xRyokenx]

After talking with another member (whom I'll leave unnamed at the moment) I have really started to develop my mind a lot more. I'm starting to think, a lot. I've been working on shaping my mind and thinking processes to where I can function better and I'm doing my best when it comes to the "large group of people in public" type problem I'm having, I get really nervous and maybe even scared while near large groups of people, like shopping at Target or wherever. I'm trying to figure out why and maybe correct that, but it seems to be a really difficult thing to accomplish. In other news, I'm reading a lot of stuff by Robert Heinlein and that's giving me a lot to think about when it comes to how other people are, religion, and how people are about religion.

At the moment I'm in NY for the second time this summer to spend time with relatives, again. I enjoyed myself last time and am going to do so this time too, it's just me (and the dog, but he can't really talk about what he wants to do, lol) so I can plan what I want to do, which is a good experience. I need to figure out what I'm going to do for the rest of the week though, and what's going to happen next week when my mom and youngest bro get up here...

[nil8]

Enjoy your time there, relax and unwind. Get out, explore, have fun, meet new people and enjoy the company of those you already know.
Don't sit in the house bored. Go do something. You're on vacation.

[Crazy Buddhist]

... I'm trying to figure out why and maybe correct that, but it seems to be a really difficult thing to accomplish ....

Yes it is. All change is hard but it also gets easier the more you do .. like anything: driving cars, picking up women/men, modding computers :D And you can not think your way out of all of it either: some things you need to learn to feel your way out of, and that is different.

In New York there is a large gathering of one of the Buddhist communities I am a part of. They have open evenings with free meditation instruction. It is not a religious thing and you won't be asked to join anything - they are just teaching you a tool for calming your mind in the first instance - a very useful tool indeed.

Something to do one evening whilst you are there? If you think maybe then check out Shambhala New York on google - I'm sure their website will tell you when the open evening sessions are.

[xRyokenx]

I came to at least part of the reason why I hate big crowds earlier, or at least what may be part of it... I seem to consider most unknown people to be stupid (in my mind anyway) as I've seen too much idiocy to have a good opinion of most humans, in person, I usually respect them as that's the best thing to do in any situation... I'll probably come to a really good conclusion later on after thinking some, but we'll see, things take time to figure out. My subconscious seems to do a lot of the processing for me and report what it thinks is applicable, or whatever, still more thinking on a lot of the schtuff related there. We'll see... I need to write this **** down in my journal, but I keep forgetting, tonight, I will though, I'm making it a priority.

[Airbozo]

For those of us who aren't botanists...

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hydroponic

I've never tried growing anything hydroponically. I wonder how well tomatoes grow. I am sick of store tomatoes in the winter vs fresh in the summer, and canned tomatoes don't even come close.

Hydroponic tomatoes are good. You just need to stick with the basic setup set forth in each manufacturers setup instructions. Basically don't over feed them or they will suck. Tomatoes for the most part grow like weeds. With a little bit of intervention you can grow tons of tomatoes in a little space, including a large pot on the deck. I can post pics of my garden if anyone is interested. The SO and I grow about 150 lbs a year of several different varieties.

Canned tomatoes are actually the best tomatoes in the supermarket. The tomatoes that are canned are the only ones that are _really_ vine ripened (in the US it is legal for the seller to call it "vine ripened" even when it was green when they picked it). When tomatoes are picked, at harvest _only_ the ripe ones (and all the ripe ones) are canned. The ones that make it to market have "ripened" on the way to market and not on the plant. You want THE best tomato possible? Grow it yourself (I do), or check out your local farmer's market.

[Airbozo]

...

In New York there is a large gathering of one of the Buddhist communities I am a part of. They have open evenings with free meditation instruction. It is not a religious thing and you won't be asked to join anything - they are just teaching you a tool for calming your mind in the first instance - a very useful tool indeed.

...

Buddhism is the BEST thing to ever happen to my Catholic Brother In Law for that very reason...

[xRyokenx]

In ^that^ case I might look into it, we'll see... that would be interesting, especially since I have absolutely no clue on how to meditate...

[nil8]

My first model for meditation was sensory overload. Worked surprisingly well for me, but it's not easy and many people can't handle it. The worst part is that it keeps requiring more and more overload the longer you use it to hit the proper state of gnosis required to meditate.

Now I do sensory deprivation and yogic meditation for the most part. I will say the more methods you try towards meditation, the easier it becomes to slip back into the hypnotic state most forms cause.

I've looked into Buddhism and read enough to know that it's not for me. I'm a left hand path kinda guy.

As for tomatoes, I'm looking at using part of my garage in the winter to grow. With proper insulation and humidty/temp regulation, I don't see this being that difficult. It will be a first for me, and I've been wanting to into hydroponics for a few years now. Regular gardening is nice, but this is much more applied theory in a controlled enviroment.

[Crazy Buddhist]

I'm a left hand path kinda guy.

Me too ... I told them I would "**** on their shrine" if they didn't buck their ideas up.

Good luck with the tomatoes man that sounds like fun. Quality lighting is important. If you are somewhere sunny you can do it under glass with a little heating and a little extra light in the winter. In a garage the electricity for the lighting won't make them cheap I suspect.


And as a Buddhist \/ you don't get much more leftfield than putting a hammer in the Buddha's hands :D

[Ichbin]

Hammertime brother, hammertime lol

[Bopher]

I've tried Bonsai growing. But they didn't do to well at high altitude. Maybe I'll try again here. I would love to get a bonsai lemon tree going and have little lemons for my iced tea.