Weird question

[Zephik]

I had a weird thought today while driving around down town, one that I'm not even sure there is an answer too? But I was thinking, why is metal non transparent while glass is? And not just metal and glass, those are just examples. I guess it would be better to say, why are transparent things transparent and non transparent things non transparent? But that might be too vague of a question since the molecular and chemical structure of everything is different. But I'm thinking it has something to do with the molecular structure of things, but I guess you can say that for just about anything.

So does anyone know the answer? Its kind of a strange question, but I thought it was pretty interesting/fun to think about. I mean, if we could create transparent metal, how freaking awesome would that be?! It might not be possible though, but hey, the world ain't flat now is it? ;)

[Spawn-Inc]

well to start glass there is the controversy of whether glass is a liquid or solid. the reason you can see through glass is because there is enough space in between each molecule that light can pass through, i think.

here is a link (http://science.howstuffworks.com/question404.htm) to how stuff works.

http://math.ucr.edu/home/baez/physics/General/Glass/glass.html

[jdbnsn]

From what I understand, the molecules in different arrangements within different substances reflect or absorb light at different wavelengths. This is also why we see color. In color, carbon atoms that have conjugated double bonds (alternating double and single covalent bonds) have different spectral signatures depending on how many bonds are contained within each molecule. If a molecular structure of a substance such as green paint absorbs light at all the frequencies of the visual spectrum except green, then green light is reflected back and that is what we see. So glass must not absorb any light (I am guessing here). As for transparent metal, it's not likely because metals have such a compact structure they essentially are a bunch of protons squeezed together with electrons being shared in all directions. But Star Trek submitted the idea years ago with one of the movies where "transparent aluminum" was used to build a strong fish tank for whales. Who knows, the sound barrier was broken so I guess anything is possible.

[SgtM]

I think I'm on nerd overload after those explanations. +rep though.

[Crazy Buddhist]

"OK ... here comes the science" - from a L'Orreal advertisement

... Basically some thhings are transparent because the light travels through them whilst others are not because it doesn't.

Green glass absorbs all the light but green and "transparent" glass absorbs a little bit accross the spectrum.

I think a poem from Spike Milligan explains the theory rather well, even though it's talking about rain rather than atoms:

There are holes in the sky
where the rain comes in
But the holes are small
Thats why rain is thin.

Similarly there are effectively "holes" in transparent stuff where the light gets through. Good thing the sky is not made of metal !! Hurrah ... because otherwise it would be a) very dark down here and b) very dry and c) we would all be albino and then L'Orreal would go out of business (albino's are famously pale faced when it comes to beauty products) and I wouldn't have been able to quote their very helpful ad slogan.

[Drew]

"OK ... here comes the science" - from a L'Orreal advertisement

... Basically some thhings are transparent because the light travels through them whilst others are not because it doesn't.

Green glass absorbs all the light but green and "transparent" glass absorbs a little bit accross the spectrum.

I think a poem from Spike Milligan explains the theory rather well, even though it's talking about rain rather than atoms:

There are holes in the sky
where the rain comes in
But the holes are small
Thats why rain is thin.

Similarly there are effectively "holes" in transparent stuff where the light gets through. Good thing the sky is not made of metal !! Hurrah ... because otherwise it would be a) very dark down here and b) very dry and c) we would all be albino and then L'Orreal would go out of business (albino's are famously pale faced when it comes to beauty prodcuts) and I wouldn't have been able to quote their very helpful ad slogan.


WTF?

You mental?

But the poem? Genius. And true I think.

+rep for the poetry.

[calumc]

WTF?

You mental?


does his name not answer that for you??
and even if he isnt mental he's sure ****ing smart!!

[Cookies N' Milk]

Transparent Aluminum (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Transparent_aluminum) :D

I had to.

[Slug Toy]

Transparent Aluminum

I had to.

yep, thats what transparent aluminum is... a gem. aluminum oxide in its crystalline form and with no impurities is clear as far as i know.


As for transparent metal, it's not likely because metals have such a compact structure they essentially are a bunch of protons squeezed together with electrons being shared in all directions.

well, actually, its not that simple. i wish it were though. metals only share their valence electrons, meaning the outer shell. the inner shells still belong exclusively to each atom. its not just a bunch of nuclei stuck together. that would entail a VERY dense material, and in fact a new element if all the nuclei were stuck together. we're talking neutron stars here if this were the case.

i dont think i can overstate the interconnectedness of light and electrons. im not sure if its known why materials are clear, and why others arent. i can make an educated guess that it once again has to do with electrons, and subsequently crystal structures. in fact, now that i think of it, i have a hypothesis (one of my first in many years). allow me to elaborate.

think of all the elements in their pure forms, excluding gases because we're talking solids here, and to a lesser extent liquids. are any pure elements clear? nope. now think of a lot of compounds. are they clear? sometimes. aluminum is a good example again. pure elemental aluminum is silvery. aluminum oxide is clear. perhaps the electron orbital hybridization involved in the creation of compounds is responsible for allowing light to pass through. even further to that, i might make the guess that colors are determined by the distances between atoms. i cant say why yet, because im still working it out in my head as we speak, but ill try to let you know soon. its starting to make sense to me at least.

[Crazy Buddhist]

WTF?

You mental?

But the poem? Genius. And true I think.

+rep for the poetry.

What is mad? What is sane? And, most importantly, who is the judge?

Actually I'm not "mental" strictly speaking though I am a Crazy Wisdom Guru of the Karma-Kagyu and Nyingma Lineages of Tibbetain Buddhism. For those whose minds inhabit traditional patterns of sanity my thinking can seem "mental", i'll admit.

I was taking the "p" out of science and Lorreal: science doesn't understand why "light" travels through some "things" and not others because we don't really understand what "things" or "light" are for a start. Which would be a good beginning!

I was called a child prodigy in maths and physics which made it boring. Instead I sought out dope, girls and discovered out how to blow up the schools first computer by making the seriel port turn and off so damn quick it played a tune on a relay "Land of hope and glory"

... getting those tones right using "for-next loops" in basic to slow it down was a long job ... I hear it now ..."beeeeeep beeeeeep beeep beeep beeep beeeeeeeep beeeeep" and the refrain from my computer teacher "turn that F***ing thing off before it ..."

BANG

Computer lessons were less fun after that. While the school saved up for a new one, we went back to sending punch cards through the post and and getting them back a week later with a printout that said "Error on card 1". The feeling this gave us was only slightly better than the feeling we had after another week when the report said "error on card 2". Debugging was a slow proces back then and we all had lice anyway so pointless.

However .. I digress ...

I was also indeed, mimicking the style and Genius of that now-so-sadly-lost-to-us GOD of comedy, Monsieur Milligan, who's poems lighted up my childhood like a very bling sign saying:

" IT'S NOT ALL BAD "

And as you like his poems so much, here's another:

A baby sardine saw his first submarine,
And swam to look through a peephole,
"Come come", said his mum, don't be so glum,
It's only a tin - full of people.

Peace + thanks for the rep + some back for your appreciation of Spike. May god toast him quickly.

CrazyB

[Crazy Buddhist]

... that would entail a VERY dense material, and in fact a new element if all the nuclei were stuck together. we're talking neutron stars here if this were the case. ...

...

perhaps the electron orbital hybridization involved in the creation of compounds is responsible for allowing light to pass through. even further to that, i might make the guess that colors are determined by the distances between atoms. i cant say why yet, because im still working it out in my head as we speak, but ill try to let you know soon. its starting to make sense to me at least.

I think that first one is that theoretical thingy called a black-hole.

I think you are close to truth with your hypopotamus, however I think you need a little more wavey gravy and a little less particularisation :)

[Slug Toy]

I think that first one is that theoretical thingy called a black-hole.

not quite. neutron stars are super dense and basically made of neutrons and possible some protons. black holes are damn near singularities. if a neutron start collapsed into itself for some reason, it would become a black hole.


I think you are close to truth with your hypopotamus, however I think you need a little more wavey gravy and a little less particularisation

well thats what i was thinking too. now excuse me while i run that statement through babelfish...

[Crazy Buddhist]

well thats what i was thinking too. now excuse me while i run that statement through babelfish...

Let me do it for you: Computer says:

"CrazyB means particles are not really solid and waves don't lack substance"

[Crazy Buddhist]

does his name not answer that for you??
and even if he isnt mental he's sure ****ing smart!!

Blimey. You get +rep.

In fact anyone who wants rep say that ^^ :D

heheheheheheh

CrazyB

Damn Im hungry ... it's cafe time.

[jdbnsn]

not quite. neutron stars are super dense and basically made of neutrons and possible some protons. black holes are damn near singularities. if a neutron start collapsed into itself for some reason, it would become a black hole.

Neutron stars mean that the cooling, dying star no longer has the energy to support the inrtamolecular forces to maintain space between atomic nuclei and 99.999% space inside the electrom orbitals is lost squeezing the neutron together into a supermass density. A collapsing neutron start will only become a black hole provided it's mass is great enough (i.e. 3 times the mass of our sun). With that mass, the force of the gravity is stronger than the neutrons themselves causing them to become anhilated or crushed under the pressure. Thsi continues until all mass is un detectable to a singularity which produces a gravitational pull as strong as the original star.

[jdbnsn]

Just for fun, since we are talking physics and all. Trivia question. Below is a diagram of two scenarios. On the left, 3 projectors with primary colored lens project beams on the screen so that the three images over lap. On the right, one projector projects a single beam of light through three overlapping primary colored lens with the light passing throgh the yellow first, then red, then blue. Questions...

A) Will the overlapped boxed marked with question marks show the same color on each screen? If so, what colors? If not, what color will they both be?

B) Can you explain this phenomenon?

Try not to look it up anywhere, just think it through and come up with your own ideas and see who knows their physics.


Definate reppage to well thought out answers.

http://www.thebestcasescenario.com/jdbnsn/misc/lights.jpg

[Crazy Buddhist]

Questions...

A) Will the overlapped boxed marked with question marks show the same color on each screen? If so, what colors? If not, what color will they both be?

B) Can you explain this phenomenon?

Answers:

A) No.

Assuming no image is being projected the first the box will be plain white. This is because each projector will fliter out all but the light in the same colour as the lens. When the three primary colours are superimposed on the screen they will project an (approximately) white light.

The second scenario the box will be black (no light). This is because the yellow filter will only let yellow light through. None of this will even get to the third lens - the blue - because the second lens will only let red light through and the yellow one already stopped that and the blue light.

B) Yes. See above.

CrazyB

[jdbnsn]

To my knowledge, that is a perfect answer. Way to go smarty pants! :banana:

[Crazy Buddhist]

To my knowledge, that is a perfect answer. Way to go smarty pants! :banana:

Thank you kind sir. BUT, how did you know I was wearing my smart trousers this morning? That bit is worrying me. Thanks for the rep :)

CrazyB

[AJ@PR]

Wow... the question is super good, but this thread is completely nuts.

I'm going to read all posts here, but at 6:15 in the morning, I'm afraid I might get an overdose too early in the morning of the crazyness. =\

Material's Transparency:::
My Take on It:::

Remember all radiation is waves... EM waves.
EM waves are both the light you're seeing, and the light you're not seeing.
EM waves is both xRays, and gamma rays. InfraRed waves, and microwaves.

Soooo!
You're saying some materials are transaparent and some are not?
Depends on what wave you're talking about.
A gamma ray for example, will pretty much cross over lots of materials/compounds/pure elements.
So for a 'gamma ray', a LOT of materials are this "transparent" you speak of.
Yet for 'infrared rays', a LOT of materials are as solid as the keyboard under your fingers.

Check out the Electromagnetic Spectrum (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Electromagnetic_radiation#Electromagnetic_spectrum ).
See, the the gamma rays over on the left are very, very tiny waves.
As you move to the right, the waves become bigger.

Tiny waves have a better chance of moving through the universe without hitting anything (radiating "on")... ie: transparency
Bigger waves have a better chance of hitting something in our world.
That's why FM radios (small) have better reception than AM (long). [[course course... most has to do with the better system for frequency modulation versus amplitude modulation, but still]]

Transparency Requirements:
1- what WAVE length are you talking about
2- what material/crystal/compound are you talking about

There are materials that are pretty transparent to lots of waves, while other pretty opaque.

Or take a Faraday Cage (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Faraday_cage).
Depending on its design, it'll stop certain wavelengths.

It's funny when people ask me:::
Should I be worried that my TV or monitor is emitting radiation?
And I'm like:::
That's the whole point!!!

Umm.//...
I was typing, and I kinda lost the thread... I'm just going to post this.

Two bunnies to all the crazies here
:bunny: :bunny:

[jdbnsn]

Depends on what wave you're talking about.


Based on the original question, I think it's only concerned with waves in the visible spectrum.

[AJ@PR]

Depends on what wave you're talking about.


Based on the original question, I think it's only concerned with waves in the visible spectrum.

Well, SnowFire might be a spy for a an alien race (surely more advanced) and he wants to make sure how we "see" stuff.
I can see that happening.

I know his locations says

Location: Coeur d'Alene, Idaho
but... can we be sure?


SnowFire, please answer the following question with a yes or no answer.

If you see a turtle upside down, trying to stand upright, struggling for hours on end... do you feel sad for the turtle?

[Crazy Buddhist]

If you see a turtle upside down, trying to stand upright, struggling for hours on end... do you feel sad for the turtle?

Jeez man ... anyone who watches a turtle struggle for hours on its back without either turning it up the right way or making soup from it is both heartless and a terrible cook. Must be an Alien.

CrazyB

[Crazy Buddhist]

Remember all radiation is waves... EM waves.
EM waves are both the light you're seeing, and the light you're not seeing.
EM waves is both xRays, and gamma rays. InfraRed waves, and microwaves.

Umm.//...
I was typing, and I kinda lost the thread... I'm just going to post this.

Two bunnies to all the crazies here
:bunny: :bunny:

I consider electrons are also basically EM waves - they are just "stuck in a rut" so to speak which makes them appear solid ... hence my earlier comment:

"CrazyB means particles are not really solid and waves don't lack substance"

CrazyB

[Slug Toy]

I consider electrons are also basically EM waves - they are just "stuck in a rut" so to speak which makes them appear solid ... hence my earlier comment:

"CrazyB means particles are not really solid and waves don't lack substance"

well im quite convinced that electrons are in fact solid matter, or at least concretely perceived as solid matter. radiation is where that question comes to life because of wave particle duality. i remember a few threads where i preached my ideas about solid light... and a few other things. im not going into that here though. ill stick to the question.

im still working on the specific reasoning for transparency in materials, but im even pulling equations into it now. i actually hate this though because i have to revisit crystal structures, quantum physics, and deductive reasoning. im pretty sure those things right there are why im not doing chemistry anymore.

[Zephik]

If you see a turtle upside down, trying to stand upright, struggling for hours on end... do you feel sad for the turtle?

No ...wait, yes. Maybe?

ALL YOUR BASE ARE BELONG TO US!

[Crazy Buddhist]

im still working on the specific reasoning for transparency in materials, but im even pulling equations into it now. i actually hate this though because i have to revisit crystal structures, quantum physics, and deductive reasoning. im pretty sure those things right there are why im not doing chemistry anymore.

You need to get out a bit more often with a power tool and a case and stop that brain before it implodes. If you don't like it don't do it. No? You stopped for a reason.

I think it may come down to this.

Imagine:

. . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . .
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. . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . .

that ^^ is a matrix of atoms. its 2d but well use it for our purposes. materials form in different ways. Length of bond between them differs. Pattern and basic structure of arrangement differs. This is to accomodate the variable field of energy that is each atom. Metals form closely, complex molecular crystals less so. Within any bond the energy field is variable along the bond. There are optimal paths for waves to pass through the matrix. In certains materials there is a crystalisation when solid that allows visable wavelengths to pass through the crystal matrix as it has repetative gaps in it's energy field that are big enough to allow photons to pass unimpeded - they weave their way perfectly. It's applicable in n dimensions.

That should be enough science. Eh? Get yr Dremel out :up:

CrazyB

[Slug Toy]

You need to get out a bit more often with a power tool and a case and stop that brain before it implodes. If you don't like it don't do it. No? You stopped for a reason.

I think it may come down to this.

Imagine:

. . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . .
. . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . .
. . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . .
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. . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . .
. . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . .

that ^^ is a matrix of atoms. its 2d but well use it for our purposes. materials form in different ways. Length of bond between them differs. Pattern and basic structure of arrangement differs. This is to accomodate the variable field of energy that is each atom. Metals form closely, complex molecular crystals less so. Within any bond the energy field is variable along the bond. There are optimal paths for waves to pass through the matrix. In certains materials there is a crystalisation when solid that allows visable wavelengths to pass through the crystal matrix as it has repetative gaps in it's energy field that are big enough to allow photons to pass unimpeded - they weave their way perfectly. It's applicable in n dimensions.

That should be enough science. Eh? Get yr Dremel out


nah im still driven to figure these things out. as much as i hate doing calculations in a classroom setting, i still do it occasionally at home when ive got good ideas.

now as for your description of gaps between atoms, you are close, but its a lot more complex than that. taking into consideration the types of crystal structures... cubic closest packed, face centered cubic, body centered cubic and so on... there are tons of variations of shape, and compound that with tons of different atomic radii, you end up with a very interesting challenge to correlate intermolecular gaps with the radiation passing through.

[Crazy Buddhist]

nah im still driven to figure these things out. as much as i hate doing calculations in a classroom setting, i still do it occasionally at home when ive got good ideas.

now as for your description of gaps between atoms, you are close, but its a lot more complex than that. taking into consideration the types of crystal structures... cubic closest packed, face centered cubic, body centered cubic and so on... there are tons of variations of shape, and compound that with tons of different atomic radii, you end up with a very interesting challenge to correlate intermolecular gaps with the radiation passing through.

I admire your madness. In it there is method. Method is an anagram of 'the mod'.

CrazyB

ps Get some sleep

[Crazy Buddhist]

nah im still driven to figure these things out. as much as i hate doing calculations in a classroom setting, i still do it occasionally at home when ive got good ideas.

An update slug?

With pictures please. A proper worklog heheheheh

CrazyB

[Slug Toy]

still working on it. ive been boating for the last 4 days, so ive been really tired overall. its tricky finding information about atomic radii, crystal structures of common materials, and the likes. i WISH i kept my chem notes instead of burning them. who knew they might actually be useful outside of a classroom...

[Quakken]

chem notes=good after the class is over

Yeah! you could've given them to ME!

But anyways, glass is transperant is because once light is emitted from something and sees it is heading for glass, it sees it before it hits it and thinks it is tremendously beautiful. Light is selfish, so it decides that it should be the only thing to ever see the beauty of un-lit glass, so it filters through it instead of stopping when it hits it, thus not reflecting off of it so we can't see it so nothing ever can ever see the true beauty of glass except the light right before it hits it.

Light also thinks it's really hot lookin' when it is traveling, before it hits something, so it travels faster so nobody except itself can see the beauty of the traveling light.

This is also why pandas won't eat in a solar eclipse, because they have the best ability to see traveling light, but only in a solar eclipse when the light itself slows down enough to look back at the dissappearing sun and marvel at it. The pandas are too busy realizing the absolute prettiness of the travelling light that only slows down then.

And that's why light travels THROUGH transperant thing rather than stopping and reflecting off.

[XcOM]

you all realize you can't see light, you just seeing what the light is reflecting off, Transparrent objects have the allilty to let the light though as it matches the wavelength of light, also dark is just the absence of light,

Thing of this:
Hold a cloth to the light, can't see through it can you, now strech it, now you can see the light though it, now thing of if you streched the holes stupidly wide, thats glass, or rather transparrent objects, i would go into greater detail, but i have a lot of forum threads to fit into 40min

[Slug Toy]

you all realize you can't see light, you just seeing what the light is reflecting off

well, no, its the other way around. you only see things because light is reflecting off them. and ill prove this with my next quote.


also dark is just the absence of light

ta daa!!! trust me. you are in fact seeing the light.


Transparrent objects have the allilty to let the light though as it matches the wavelength of light

you know, at first i was going to demolish this statement, but after thinking about it... it may be possible. you see, different wavelengths of light will excite electrons to different degrees. it may be a possibility that certain atoms in a material are absorbing certain wavelengths due to their electron configurations and such. in fact, im quite sure this idea plays in somewhere. its a case more specific to transparent objects, because i still believe that atoms in an opaque object are just too close together to let light through at all, making electron configurations a moot point. it may in fact be the electron sea in metals that blocks things out too. if you think about it, the nuclei are definitely too small to see no matter how many atoms are clumped together. the thing that take up the most space is the electron (not physically, but they move so fast that they might as well). its a distinct possibility that everything we see is just the electrons.


But anyways, glass is transperant is because once light is emitted from something and sees it is heading for glass, it sees it before it hits it and thinks it is tremendously beautiful. Light is selfish, so it decides that it should be the only thing to ever see the beauty of un-lit glass, so it filters through it instead of stopping when it hits it, thus not reflecting off of it so we can't see it so nothing ever can ever see the true beauty of glass except the light right before it hits it.

Light also thinks it's really hot lookin' when it is traveling, before it hits something, so it travels faster so nobody except itself can see the beauty of the traveling light.

This is also why pandas won't eat in a solar eclipse, because they have the best ability to see traveling light, but only in a solar eclipse when the light itself slows down enough to look back at the dissappearing sun and marvel at it. The pandas are too busy realizing the absolute prettiness of the travelling light that only slows down then.

so you're telling me i have to factor in emotion into my equations? and pandas? you know thats crazy enough to work... seeming as for a while i was convinced that every atom contained a tiny buffalo.

[Quakken]

tiny buffalo


I heard it was the buffalo's slightly smaller more bovinic cousin the ruffalo that resided in every atom.
They share part of their name with a "ruffle" which is a crimped patatoe chip, which is ironic because potato atoms actually have buffalo instead of ruffalos in their atoms.



emotions? damn.

Yes, contrary to popular belief (physics, psh) light does have minute but very strong emotions, just like how apple juice has minute amounts of very strong ACID in it.

Light can also love other light, and i heard that infra red was having a cross-spectrum fling with ultraviolet, but microwave got very VERY jealous and decided to kick infra red out of the humans visible spectrum.

Microwave is the transvestite king/queen of the light universe, and thus decides who sees what. It's too bad, because we were so close to having predator vision, but that darn lady-killer infra red messed it up for us*.

*(incidentally, infra red likes humans, but it loves ultra-violet, who hates humans and thus sunburns us when we don't sacrifice ten daily virgins to the sun god, who actually turns out to be roommates with ultra-violet.[you didn't see no aztecs with sunburn!])

[Drew]

Can we not be happy with:

Glass is see through because we can see through it.

Metal isn't see through because we can't.

I reckon that covers it, damn I'm good, next question,.

[Airbozo]

................ sacrifice ten daily virgins to the sun god, ...............

I used to do this, but ran out...


Hehe you guys splinter off when the gray matter starts to boil...

[Slug Toy]

Hehe you guys splinter off when the gray matter starts to boil...

im assuming that means something along the lines of "when the going gets tough, the tough go crazy."

its true though.. madness goes hand in hand with genius unfortunately.

[Zephik]

its true though.. madness goes hand in hand with genius unfortunately.

So true. I'll quote one of my past history teachers.

"You can't be a genius without being crazy, but you can be crazy without being a genius."

[Crazy Buddhist]

"You can't be a genius without being crazy, but you can be crazy without being a genius."

You're spot on there :D ... almost ... you can't be a Genius without appearing crazy to Mr Average. Unfortunately Mr Average is unlikely to discern the difference between the real Mr Crazy and the real Mr Genius.

CrazyB

[SSGM4DCOW]

thank you

you gave me a headache

[crenn]

This thread has brought back 2 subjects:
My year 12 physics which involved light and matter
Materials and Structures which involved atomic structures and such like.

As for light going through crystaline structures....... I guess it comes down to the atomic structure, and the atomic packing factor, the less efficient those are, the more light is going to be able to pass through.... I think.