To SLI or Not to SLI - that is the question? [Archive]

Crazy Buddhist

08-03-2007, 05:07 AM

OK guys and girls. Theoretical question here with practical implications:

You're MOBO is SLI capable and you have a budget of a) $100 b) $250 c) $400 for the Graphics card(s).

Which will give you a better overall system and/or graphics performance at any of these budget levels:

1) Buying the most advanced card you can with all your budget

or

2) Splitting the budget in half to buy a pair of (lower spec) twins and SLI-bridging them.

Also does it depend on what you are doing with the machine?

CrazyB

Cymae

08-03-2007, 05:11 AM

sigh. this is the thrid time i'm explainigng this.

SLI does this: It splits the rendering on your monitor between two cards. you can only ever have one monitor with SLI. It should improve performance to 150% roughly. This is ONLY good if you a) have a massive monitor (22" widescreen I'd say is the absolute minimum), and b) if you do alot of rendering or high end graphics animation, and you want to speed up your rendering times. So unless you're a budding graphics artist with a massive monitor, do yourself a favour and buy ONE video card. Then at least you can go dual monitor sometime

jdbnsn

08-03-2007, 05:12 AM

jdbnsn

08-03-2007, 05:15 AM

So unless you're a budding graphics artist with a massive monitor, do yourself a favour and buy ONE video card. Then at least you can go dual monitor sometime

I disagree with that last part. you can run up to 4 monitors with good resolution with any of the CF or SLI enabled cards. You just can't run them with SLI or CF enabled. Using one monitor per port works fine in regular mode.

Cymae

08-03-2007, 05:15 AM

can we sticky some sort of "What SLI and CX does" thing? this question has been asked like..twice in the last day or 2

In reply: i was reffering to enabled. not just having them

Crazy Buddhist

08-03-2007, 05:23 AM

It splits the rendering on your monitor between two cards. you can only ever have one monitor with SLI.

Yes the first part I know.

I do lots of very heavy 3D rendering which is why I am asking the question.

The second part, Cymae, your information is incorrect. It depends on the MOBO implementation and cards: Sometimes (usually) the output ports on one card get disabled with SLI. So if you have 2 x SLI cards with dual output you will be able to run two monitors off of the one card who's ports are left functioning.

Cymae

08-03-2007, 05:27 AM

yes..but it defies the whole point..you have 2 cards in SLI sharing the rendering on the monitor. If you add 2 monitors you mght aswell render 1 monitor per card...don't you think?

Crazy Buddhist

08-03-2007, 05:29 AM

In my opinion, you are better off with a higher end single card than SLI these days. Many of the bench tests I've seen show the 8800 performing better than CF or SLI (hard for me to admit having CF myself). This will ultimately consume less power (I think) and you will have less difficulty getting all of your games to play. I have several games that won't budge with Crossfire enabled.

Thanks Jon. Thats helpful. I don't play games at all however. The 3D rendering I am doing is taking medical DICOM images from MRI and CT scans and rendering 3D models of the skeleton and various other body parts (gooey stuff :eek: )

My CPU is maxing out constantly and I would like to shift more of that load to the GPU(s?), although also planning to upgrade the CPU to a dual core Opteron 180. There are several variables in working out how to invest any spare £££ I get into best improving performance - this one was playing on my mind.

CrazyB

Crazy Buddhist

08-03-2007, 05:31 AM

yes..but it defies the whole point..you have 2 cards in SLI sharing the rendering on the monitor. If you add 2 monitors you mght aswell render 1 monitor per card...don't you think?

Thanks Cymae. I intend to stick to one monitor and don't see myself ever needing two. It's merely about 3D rendering performance (not for games) and where to best invest to improve that.

CrazyB

Cymae

08-03-2007, 05:36 AM

then yeah. I'm hoping to get a 22" and then upgrade to CX. its feasable

.Maleficus.

08-03-2007, 07:42 AM

Thanks Cymae. I intend to stick to one monitor and don't see myself ever needing two. It's merely about 3D rendering performance (not for games) and where to best invest to improve that.

CrazyB
What card are you looking at? Because even with an 8800GTX, you won't see much performance increase without a workstation card. Gaming cards just aren't made to do heavy 3D rendering, just like workstation cards weren't made to game. But man if I could afford one, I'd definitely look into a Quadro (if I ever get good at 3D...)

Crazy Buddhist

08-03-2007, 12:08 PM

What card are you looking at?

...

But man if I could afford one, I'd definitely look into a Quadro (if I ever get good at 3D...)

Not looking at anything in particular yet. Am just discovering something about NVidia cards not handling all the graphics processing at 1024 x 768 and this maxing out yr CPU ... I need to investigate more.

What's a Quadro Mal?

CrazyB

Cookies N' Milk

08-03-2007, 12:51 PM

Not looking at anything in particular yet. Am just discovering something about NVidia cards not handling all the graphics processing at 1024 x 768 and this maxing out yr CPU ... I need to investigate more.

What's a Quadro Mal?

CrazyB

A quadro is nvidia's line of workstation cards. I built a workstation for a friend a few months ago that used a PNY Quadro FX 3450. Those things are monsters when it comes to CAD and other highend 3D Modeling programs. If all you are going to do is 3D work then you are best off getting a Quadro or ATI's FireGL cards. One other thing, if you invest in the bank busting workstation cards, SLI/CF is not really needed, unless your going to be doing some of the most insane 3D work. And when I say bank busting I mean it. The most expensive gaming card here is $1200. Quadros and what not are way up there at $3500 for the big cards ;)

If you get a Quadro PNY (http://www2.pny.com/Categories/NVidiaQuadroProfessionalGraphics.aspx?Category_ID= 17) is the only brand you really need to look at.

A lot of people say that the work station cards can not play games very well but that is not 100% true. It depends on how much you spend. If you buy a $400 workstation card it will not match a $400 gaming card in performance when it comes to games, but it will smash the gaming card in 3D rendering. But if you buy a $1000 workstation card chances are it would do just fine with the newest games. The workstation I built ran CS:Source maxed out with no problems or large FPS drops. It did cost $1600 though. But like you said you don't play games at all. A $1600 card might be overkill for what you want to do (Can't say for sure, you would have to ask an expert on how beefy of a card you would need.)

What ever you decide to choose for a card you should upgrade your proc for sure. If there is ever a need for more processor power it is in a workstation. I have an Opteron 185 around here somewhere. The mainboard for it blew out but damn I loved that thing.

EDIT: Check ebay. I just saw a couple Quadros, including the one I used in my friends computer, going for under $300 CND.

Airbozo

08-03-2007, 01:51 PM

Good info Cookies! Thanks!

I have access to 2 video cards for my workstation. The one installed right now is the ATI 1650x512 and it runs games great, but barely loads the customer's app (mostly due to windows issues). Since this workstation doubles as a testbed for one of our customers, I also have the Quadro 3450 (yes PNY C&M), and that card will not even load some of the games, but runs the customers application (heavy OpenGL) with nary a twitch. I could also throw another 3450 in there and SLI them if needed (only ever done for testing).

Crazy, since you do what you do, this is the customer I am talking about;
http://accuray.com/

and this is the app I run on this system;
http://accuray.com/Products/MultiPlan/index.aspx

You probably know more about what they are talking about with regards to features and such, but currently they use a Dell 690 (2 xeons 3.0ghz, 8gb memory (upgrading to 16gb), a quadro 4500x512, win server 2003 x64) to run this app and are moving to linux in the near future.

Mitternacht

08-03-2007, 02:11 PM

Well I wanted to do crossfire, but I think I'm gonna do SLI in the future. I'd pick 2 XFX GeForce7600GT's. I think that's a nice SLI combo for $250.

Crazy Buddhist

08-03-2007, 03:28 PM

Good info Cookies! Thanks!

...

Ditto ... +reps all round

And thank you very much for the info Airbozo. Yes. Thats up my street. My Workhorse ain't what theirs is but I need to head thataways.

I have 2G Ram and will be replacing the Proc with an Opteron 180 (dual core server grade AMD processor for anyone who doesn't know). This can be safely overclocked a long way as its server-grade (i.e they pick out the good ones and call them Opterons).

Apps wise apart from the obvious (Office stuff, Browsers, music, media) Im using Julius, 3D Doctor and Medview medical imaging software. I use photoshop a lot. Not well but a lot. I'd like to run MIPAV but my system can not cope right now. I think getting an Nvidia based Workstation Graphics Card in the $400 price range, along with the Opteron 180 and maybe bumping to 4Gig of Ram would be the thing to do and see this thing fly as I know it can.

The only other requirement I would have is that the card be DVI + S-Video/TV Out as I watch telly on her in the evenings. .... Hmmm .... but then if I build my 6" cube media PC .. I wont need to do that.

Im going to check models at that price in the US and then I will see what the UK cost is. Bet it's nearly double - i.e £ for $. Any recommended models? PNY I have noted.

.Maleficus.

08-03-2007, 06:19 PM

This: http://www.newegg.com/Product/Product.aspx?Item=N82E16814133142

Cookies N' Milk

08-03-2007, 07:42 PM

This: http://www.newegg.com/Product/Product.aspx?Item=N82E16814133142

That is a good card but it is lacking in memory. If you ever do any large scale render at high resolutions or large textures your going to run into problems. 256MB is about as low as you should ever go. 512 is more than enough for most people. Anything above that... well your insane to need it ;)

This is the newest Quadro card. Click (http://www2.pny.com/NVIDIA-Quadro-FX-4600-PCIE--P2143C35.aspx) DX10/Vista compatable, 768MB, SLI ready, resolutions up to 3840 x 2400, and no price tag ;) We all know what the no price tag means.

As for brands, PNY is your best bet. I got my hands on one of thier quadro cards two years ago and have not had a problem with it. I have installed four PNY Quadro cards and had no problems with them what so ever. The only other brand I would even think about getting a Quadro from is directly from Nvidia.

Oh and thanks for the rep guys ^^

Cookies N' Milk

08-03-2007, 08:37 PM

I would just like to point something out that I remembered just now. I noticed that when I did some 3D rendering in 3D Studio Maxusing my newest computer, (C2D E6600 @ 3.7GHz, 2GB RAM, Two 8800GTS 640MB that are heavily overclocked), I noticed very little difference in rendering time using a single card or SLI. 8800 Cards are pretty powerful. They may not be as good as a $1600 Quadro when it comes to 3D but they can still do a lot. I haven't tried SLI with Quadro cards so I don't know if there is a noticable performance increase. If anyone has an SLI Quadro setup please let me know if it is really worth it. I have always wondered.

So what I am saying is in my experiance I have not seen much of a difference with SLI when using 3D programs.

CB I would suggest that you should invest in a higher end Quadro or FireGL card and not use SLI. You will be better off spending a little more on a single card rather than spending the same amount of money to get two cards. I'm going to phone a friend (or maybe go over there) who likes to spend money for no good reason. He felt the need to go on a spending spree last week and spent 10grand on a new workstation setup... The last of his parts came in yesterday. He bought two of those new DX10 nvidia cards. Lucky bastard.... I will let you know if there is any need for SLI in workstations. My guess is no, not unless you work for Lucasarts ;)

.Maleficus.

08-03-2007, 09:17 PM

Just curious C&M, what kind of cooling are you using that's allowing you to get to 3.7Ghz? I mean jesus that's fast! The highest I ever got on my E6600 was 3.3Ghz (air cooling though).

Cookies N' Milk

08-03-2007, 09:28 PM

Just curious C&M, what kind of cooling are you using that's allowing you to get to 3.7Ghz? I mean jesus that's fast! The highest I ever got on my E6600 was 3.3Ghz (air cooling though).

I heavily modified Coolit Eliminator. It blew up on me last week so I gotta buy a new one and try and make it more stable. I can crank this baby up to 4.1GHz with it. 3D mark doesn't like me too much when I do that ;) When I get a new Eliminator I will modify it again and take some pics. My mobo got bitchy with me when I got it running at 4.1GHz. Thing blew out after my last attempt to go higher than 4.1 LOL

EDIT: you should be able to get 3.4 on air at least. I got mine up to 3.4 using the stock intel cooler.

Crazy Buddhist

08-04-2007, 02:56 AM

A lot of people say that the work station cards can not play games very well but that is not 100% true.

...

EDIT: Check ebay. I just saw a couple Quadros, including the one I used in my friends computer, going for under $300 CND.

I bet this workstation (http://store.nvidia.com/servlet/SecureControllerServlet?Action=DisplayPage&Locale=en_US&id=ProductDetailsPage&SiteID=nvidia&productID=49538800&Env=BASE) can outplay almost any gaming rig:

http://www.nvidia.com/docs/CP/38357/quadroplex_model_3.jpg

* $20,500.00
* Four NVIDIA Quadro FX 4500 GPUs
* Two NVIDIA Quadro G-sync boards
* Up to 8 channels
* 32X SLI FSAA (max on single channel)

Thanks Cookies +rep for the tips :up:

CrazyB

Crazy Buddhist

08-04-2007, 07:35 AM

The second part, Cymae, your information is incorrect. It depends on the MOBO implementation and cards: Sometimes (usually) the output ports on one card get disabled with SLI. So if you have 2 x SLI cards with dual output you will be able to run two monitors off of the one card who's ports are left functioning.

Appology owed. I have educated myself a tad. You are right Cymae on this one. SLI does not work with two monitors unless you use a third graphics card to run the second monitor * see below.

You can run two monitors on an SLI setup but the moment you do that the SLI is disabled. Anyone needs clarifacation check Nvidia's site and their forums.

+rep cos I'm BAD :D

CrazyB

* You have your two SLI cards running one monitor in SLI mode. You install a third Graphics card - preferably non-Nvidia so the Nvidia drivers dont grab it and screw you - and you run your second monitor (and even third) from the third card. Thus yr first monitor is fully SLI enabled.

dgrmkrp

08-04-2007, 07:45 AM

I would just like to point something out that I remembered just now. I noticed that when I did some 3D rendering in 3D Studio Maxusing my newest computer, (C2D E6600 @ 3.7GHz, 2GB RAM, Two 8800GTS 640MB that are heavily overclocked), I noticed very little difference in rendering time using a single card or SLI. 8800 Cards are pretty powerful. They may not be as good as a $1600 Quadro when it comes to 3D but they can still do a lot. I haven't tried SLI with Quadro cards so I don't know if there is a noticable performance increase. If anyone has an SLI Quadro setup please let me know if it is really worth it. I have always wondered.

Well, the video adapter only helps with viewport performance.. At rendering time, it won't do much, unless you have special software (amaretto, gelato from nvidia) to take advantage of the gpu power.. Basically, the power of the gpu is used only when u work on the computer, not when it works by itself. The professional solutions don't differ that much in PCB or internal architecture, but have modified BIOSes, that activate and deactivate functions in the programmable GPUs... so, they keep the nice and stable chips for themselves and sell them as pro version.. but they are more or less the same...

I would go for one of them, but they are a tad too overpriced.. Maybe just one 8800 would be cool enough ;)

Also, 10ks everybody for the info on the sli in the last post.. Live and learn :) I didn't know that sli is automatically disabled..

.Maleficus.

08-04-2007, 09:41 AM

EDIT: you should be able to get 3.4 on air at least. I got mine up to 3.4 using the stock intel cooler.
Damn, are you serious? Probably needs a few voltage increases then, right? I only bumped it up the next entry so that's probably why it wasn't stable at 3.3Ghz. What do you have your voltages at?

*sorry for being off topic...*

Cookies N' Milk

08-04-2007, 11:59 AM

I bet this workstation (http://store.nvidia.com/servlet/SecureControllerServlet?Action=DisplayPage&Locale=en_US&id=ProductDetailsPage&SiteID=nvidia&productID=49538800&Env=BASE) can outplay almost any gaming rig:

http://www.nvidia.com/docs/CP/38357/quadroplex_model_3.jpg

* $20,500.00
* Four NVIDIA Quadro FX 4500 GPUs
* Two NVIDIA Quadro G-sync boards
* Up to 8 channels
* 32X SLI FSAA (max on single channel)

Thanks Cookies +rep for the tips :up:

CrazyB
I have seen those... I REALLY want to get my hands on one of them and poke around the insides. Eh maybe I can get all my LAN buddies to chip in 1grand each and get one just for the hell of it.

Damn, are you serious? Probably needs a few voltage increases then, right? I only bumped it up the next entry so that's probably why it wasn't stable at 3.3Ghz. What do you have your voltages at?

*sorry for being off topic...*
Voltage was at 1.4 I think. I got all my voltages and bios settings for different overclocks writen down somewhere so I can replicate them ;).

Airbozo

08-04-2007, 12:49 PM

..... Anything above that... well your insane to need it ;)

See below;

This is the newest Quadro card. ...

See below;

As for brands, PNY is your best bet. I got my hands on one of thier quadro cards two years ago and have not had a problem with it. I have installed four PNY Quadro cards and had no problems with them what so ever. The only other brand I would even think about getting a Quadro from is directly from Nvidia.

This is the correct motorcycle.
...

...I haven't tried SLI with Quadro cards so I don't know if there is a noticable performance increase. If anyone has an SLI Quadro setup please let me know if it is really worth it. I have always wondered.

I can put together an sli quadro setup, but have no way to test it. If you have and app that will test the rendering performance of a quadro sli setup I can give it a run.

I bet this workstation (http://store.nvidia.com/servlet/SecureControllerServlet?Action=DisplayPage&Locale=en_US&id=ProductDetailsPage&SiteID=nvidia&productID=49538800&Env=BASE) can outplay almost any gaming rig:

http://www.nvidia.com/docs/CP/38357/quadroplex_model_3.jpg

* $20,500.00
* Four NVIDIA Quadro FX 4500 GPUs
* Two NVIDIA Quadro G-sync boards
* Up to 8 channels
* 32X SLI FSAA (max on single channel)

Thanks Cookies +rep for the tips :up:

CrazyB

I have a friend who spent money on the quadroplex and he felt it was a huge waste of cash. I will ping him to find out why he felt that. BTW: nvidia can thank sgi for the g-sync board

Here is the latest quadro FX 5600 board. 1.5gb of memory...;

http://www.beyond3d.com/content/reviews/40

Cookies N' Milk

08-04-2007, 07:56 PM

I have a friend who spent money on the quadroplex and he felt it was a huge waste of cash. I will ping him to find out why he felt that. BTW: nvidia can thank sgi for the g-sync board

Here is the latest quadro FX 5600 board. 1.5gb of memory...;

http://www.beyond3d.com/content/reviews/40

Your friend most likely didn't feel it was worth it because there is no way someone can utilize its power unless you are an overpaid scientist :devious:.

But... 1.5GB video memory on that 5600... Um so lets see a computer with a card like that would need an insanely powerful proc, lots of system ram, and an extremely big power supply... The PNY spec sheet says: 750W power supply (higher capacity may be required for SLI)

750W for a single card setup? that would put it at 900ish+ for SLI wouldn't it? Seems like a waste of money to get something like that.

I WANT :D

Quakken

08-04-2007, 10:25 PM

we're starting to get into the isanities. i don't even know if that is a word.

Spawn-Inc

08-05-2007, 02:30 AM

what would 3dmark03,05,06 say about a sli quadro setup? would it just be like a game and not very good since there ment for 3d stuffs?

dgrmkrp

08-05-2007, 08:21 AM

For testing the performance of a card in 3d environments, I think spec view perf or something is the program to use.. it is actually a suite of test and maybe you would need a 3d app before.. This isn't like 3dmark, with built in scenes and graphics engines.. I think :) I'll search for the benchmark.. found it (http://www.spec.org/gpc/opc.static/viewperf71info.html) :)
Hopes this helps the ones that can test if SLI makes a difference :)

Cookies N' Milk

08-05-2007, 01:10 PM

Spawn-Inc

08-05-2007, 09:31 PM

dido! EDIT: ditto... i suck at spelling!

Crazy Buddhist

08-06-2007, 02:29 AM

Well I got bored of my ATI Radeon Saphire X850 PE cooking itself and went out yesterday to buy a stop gap solution: I came home with an ASUS EN8500GT SILENT. Yuck. My 3DMArk performance dropped. I find it hard to believe cos the ATI had 256 M DDR1 on and the 8500GT has 512M of DDR2.

I.Love.This.Thread. -Jeremy

I love this thread too Jeremy. I think the guy who started it deserves major repage.

CrazyB

.Maleficus.

08-06-2007, 10:01 AM

Crazy Buddhist

08-06-2007, 12:57 PM

8500GT isn't meant to be a gaming/performance card. From the Newegg reviews I've read most people use it in HTPC machines and low-end PCs that don't have onboard graphics.

Oh, and extra memory only really matters at high resolutions (1600x1200 or above).

Damn you Mal what don't you know? loooooooooooool

Thanks for the tips. Can I overclock this card cos I''m cooling it I have a 120mm Noctua pointing straight at it. It's designed to run regularly at 60 - 75 degrees or so and safely at up to 125 degrees C and its never topping 50.

Jeremy :) thanks .. great minds ... if you look at the latest pic on the deskpooter thread (http://www.thebestcasescenario.com/forum/showpost.php?p=123693&postcount=21) you can see I have a fan pointing at her as above (and below lol ) :)

http://www.freedomforall.net/Lights.jpg