The Hidden Meaning

[progbuddy]

I've been looking around on info about Tool's album "Lateralus." It turns out Maynard is a genius.

The order of the songs isn't meant to be played one after the other. Instead, it was to be played in the order of a Fibonacci sequence (6,7,5,8,4,9,3,10,2,11,1,12,13). Each song continues on into the next, and the Fibonacci sequence fitting the pattern of a spiral (hence, Lateralus, and their use of spirals in graphic art, concert scenes, and patterns of guitar, drums, and bass using this sequence). The lyrics also continue on through each one of the songs fitting the sequence, hitting key points in between songs that give so much more meaning.

Just thought it was kinda neat :p.

-Kev.

[b4i7]

hmm..ill have to check that out

[.Maleficus.]

I just tried that out with a few songs, and I think you're right, it does work out that way. Pretty fricking awesome.

[xRyokenx]

I'm gonna do that in a sec.

EDIT: My bastard of a Pocket PC has the ability to change the order of the playlist but isn't letting me for some dang reason.
ANOTHER EDIT: I had it on shuffle, that would explain it, lol. This should be interesting.

[Crazy Buddhist]

EDIT: My bastard of a Pocket PC has the ability to change the order of the playlist but isn't letting me for some dang reason.
ANOTHER EDIT: I had it on shuffle, that would explain it, lol. This should be interesting.

Im laughing so much my head hurts a bit :eek:

CrazyB

[b4i7]

wow...it really does flow all together

[xRyokenx]

Im laughing so much my head hurts a bit :eek:

CrazyB
Yeah, I can be extremely intelligent when I want to be. :D Happens all the time, lol.

[lukeisthecoolest]

did u figure this out or did u read it on the internetz?

otherwise that is a pretty sick way of ordering songs!

[Slug Toy]

well its not a fibonacci sequence, i can tell you that. if it were fibonacci, it would be played 1,2,3,5,8,13,4,6,7,9,10,11,12. however, playing it in a fibonacci sequence does also get some interesting results.

as far as i can tell, the list 6,7,5,8,4,9,3,10,2,11,1,12,13 is just a decending, ascending pattern originating from the two most linked songs in the album, and i hazard a guess that when played in that order you should get an overall effect of a representation of a relationship and all its possible stages.

[jdbnsn]

You'll find this type of subtle treasures in all of Tool's albums, they are saturated with tiny enigmatic puzzles. 10,000 Days is one of the most amazing of all, several songs can be played on top of one another to reveal a new song, vigneti tres (23) holds a great deal of significance to many cult and superstitous groups (whom Tool constantly makes fun of). 10,000 days refers to the 27 years Maynard's mother Judith Marie Garrison lived with the crippling effects of a stroke before she passed into heaven (listen carefully to the lyrics of part one and two as the soul complains to God about the unfairness of punishing his true believers). Lateralus celebrates the style of lateral thinking of understanding patterns in life through mathematics and measurable phenomenon, hence the strong emphasis of mathematical patterns throughout the album. It also has a significant amount of mockery toward people who rely on any one way of knowing (science, religion, philosophy) without regard to the others. I have never personally bought the argument that the time signature (9-8-7) primary riff in Lateralus represents the 16th step in the fibonocci sequence, frankly it just doesn't make sense.

[xRyokenx]

...and the horrible meaning behind Stinkfist that once I realized it, I promptly deleted if from my computer, lol. Twisted.

But yeah, they're a cool band. Lateralus went better in the different order.

[jdbnsn]

Stinkfist is not really about what you probably think it's about. Watch the video closely and read the lyrics. Notice the characters in the video eating nails and inhaling fumes that are apparently toxic? It's about drug addiction. "It's not enough, I need more, nothing seems to satisfy" -the downward spiral of drug addiction as it takes more and more drugs to reach the desired effect. "I don't want it, I just need it, to breathe, to feel, to know I'm alive" -the result of the addict's eventual reliance on the drug to stimulate his now dulled pleasure center of the brain. "Finger deep within the borderline. -->Knuckle deep within the borderline.-->Elbow deep within the borderline.-->Shoulder deep within the borderline" -The progression and sensation of being sucked into the grip of addiction and sensing the loss of control over yourself.

[Omega]

Reminds me a bit of Megadeth's "Burnt Ice" about Crystal Meth addiction:

He said he'd try just a little bit
He didn't want to end up like them
And now he blames the voices of a toothless wonder
Pounding on the door to make the next score

Anything for a hit, any sin to pay for it
For that next bowl, he'd sell his soul

Spiral to destruction, it's too late to break the spell
He wants the ride to stop on the freight train straight to hell
Without the truth he'll never find in a dungeon of his lies
His cause of death... high speed on burnt ice

Always looking at the ground, a broken, beaten man
Memories of his family are calling after him
He can hardly thing, hardly walk
Phone keeps ringing, he can't talk
With just one hit the pain would go away
But he's dead if he does

Shadow people follow him everywhere he goes
Looking over his shoulder, the paranoia grows

[xRyokenx]

Ahh... okay, them and their lyrics to confuse people, lol. I'll add it back when I get home, lol. I did enjoy the song otherwise, lol... maes sense now.

[.Maleficus.]

10,000 Days is amazing. I just got it, and I'm very impressed with it so far.

[xRyokenx]

Roseta Stoned is my favorite song on that album... Vicarious and Jambi aren't far behind. I looked up the lyrics for Roseta Stoned, and I have to say, that is one funny song, I'm not sure if I quite understand the meaning behind it, but I do know what he's saying now, heh heh.

[nil8]

Part of the beauty of Tool is that their lyrics can take on subjective interpretation.
I know I've listened to the same Tool songs thousands of times and in different stages of my life they have meant different things to me.

I think Tool is probably the only band that exemplifies many occult ideas and thoughts without doing it as a marketing ploy. One of their greatest assets is the fact that they convey some meaning and care about what music they create.

I will have to try that with Lateralus.

[Crazy Buddhist]

Part of the beauty of Tool is that their lyrics can take on subjective interpretation.

I can't imagine a sentance I thought I would be less likely to read here. preconceptions being bust open is the best fun. +rep I knew you were an intellectual in disguise :D

CrazyB

[progbuddy]

Hmmm... I wonder if this has any connection to A Perfect Circle...

I've noticed they have a similar hidden meaning/pattern, especially in Thirteenth Step.

[xRyokenx]

I've found that most of the music I listen to has some meaning behind it, Tool is kind of at the top on that list though, so many meanings, one set of lyrics, lol. Linkin Park seems to have more or less lyrics based off of old pains and such (drugs, abuse, etc. from a few of the members' pasts) and Rammstein tells a story in some of their songs, or just have the lyrics they have for shock value or to satirize something, Mein Teil comes to mind, lol.

[Slug Toy]

Roseta Stoned is my favorite song on that album... Vicarious and Jambi aren't far behind. I looked up the lyrics for Roseta Stoned, and I have to say, that is one funny song, I'm not sure if I quite understand the meaning behind it, but I do know what he's saying now, heh heh.

how about right in two? thats probably my very favorite. says a lot about human nature.


Hmmm... I wonder if this has any connection to A Perfect Circle...

I've noticed they have a similar hidden meaning/pattern, especially in Thirteenth Step.

how can it not? good old maynard, whether hes just in charge of the lyrics or more, seems to be able to pull everything together and make some sort of masterpiece.

kind of funny, i was just talking about the thirteenth step in another thread. thats my absolute favorite album, although my favorite song is the hollow on mer de noms... that song... wow... the guitars are just like some sort of cascading dreamscape. i cant even put it into words how much i just want to wrap myself up in that song. the tone is just awesome.

[jdbnsn]

The APC albums are beautifully done, I am also blown away by the riffs in The Hollow. The only thing lacking in APC is Danney Carey's wicked drum beats.

[Slug Toy]

this is true, but im willing to let it slide. it would make it at least 50% better though. thats mainly why i like right in two so much.

[jdbnsn]

From what I have gathered, the fibonacci sequence is used to mark the syllables of MJK's vocals in the song Lateralus...It makes a cresendo-decresendo pattern that relates to double spirals originating from the same point but moving in opposite directions (look at the patterns made by electrons beamed through metal). This pattern can be found on the inside of the album cover and throughout the video for Lateralus.

black (1)
and(1)
white are (2)
all i see (3)
in my infancy(5)
red and yellow then came to be (8
reaching out to me (5)
let's me see (3)
there is (2)
so(1)
much (1)
more that (2)
beckons me (3)
to look through to these (5)
infinite possibilities (8
as below so above and beyond I imagine (13)
drawn outside the lines of reason (8
push the envelope (5)
watch it bend (3)

Danny Carey's drum beat in the song also follows the fibonacci sequence, but in a repeating pattern from 1 to 13 and starts over.

[Slug Toy]

ok... now ill admit that id probably try to find patterns like that too... but you're starting to freak me out even more than i freak myself out, and thats hard to do.

[xRyokenx]

Listening to Right in Two right now, lol... it does though. Their music is excellent, now I think I'm gonna look into getting lyrics one day and seeing what I can interpret from them when I get bored or feel like doing it...

[Slug Toy]

there you go, you just got bitten by the bug. now theres no turning back.

[xRyokenx]

there you go, you just got bitten by the bug. now theres no turning back.
Well, that was prolly after I saw them in concert (which was excellent btw), but yep, you've hit the nail on its head.

[jdbnsn]

ok... now ill admit that id probably try to find patterns like that too... but you're starting to freak me out even more than i freak myself out, and thats hard to do.


If you think that's creepy, you should see what develops from the rearrangement of the songs in a certain order discussed earlier, compound meaning beyond what I can imagine.

[jdbnsn]

More fun facts, the drum beats in Jambi (I think) are morse code for 3..2..1.. just before they break into chorus. In one song (I can't remember which, maybe Lipan Conjuring) there is a message hidden that can be heard while playing the LP backwards, the message is something like "don't do drugs and stay in school"

[b4i7]

heh...dont do drugs...coming from tool makes me lol

[jdbnsn]

I don't think they are into drugs. They may have used but especially maynard is a huge advocate of recovery.

[b4i7]

really? it doesnt seem like they would be..

[jdbnsn]

They promote a healthy lifestyle and better living through a clear mind. Maynard is a wine conisuer though, enev has his own winery. http://www.caduceus.org/

[b4i7]

well... you learn somethin new every day

[nil8]

Most people who are truly unique aren't into drugs after they experiment with them. They often times find them stifling or a method of escapism.

Learning to change your perceptions on existence sober is much more rewarding than anything that temporarily alters perspective.

A little side note, on 8/28 I'm getting my first tattoo and it's going to be caduceus.

One of the bigger things that amazes me about tool is their following. So many people from so many different walks of life enjoy their music.
That and their live shows induce states of gnostic trance, but that's neither here nor there. ;)

[jdbnsn]

From what I have gathered, the fibonacci sequence is used to mark the syllables of MJK's vocals in the song Lateralus...It makes a cresendo-decresendo pattern that relates to double spirals originating from the same point but moving in opposite directions (look at the patterns made by electrons beamed through metal). This pattern can be found on the inside of the album cover and throughout the video for Lateralus.

black (1)
and(1)
white are (2)
all i see (3)
in my infancy(5)
red and yellow then came to be (8
reaching out to me (5)
let's me see (3)
there is (2)
so(1)
much (1)
more that (2)
beckons me (3)
to look through to these (5)
infinite possibilities (8
as below so above and beyond I imagine (13)
drawn outside the lines of reason (8
push the envelope (5)
watch it bend (3)

Danny Carey's drum beat in the song also follows the fibonacci sequence, but in a repeating pattern from 1 to 13 and starts over.


Correction, when plotted they produce a spiral that changes direction.

[DaveW]

You guys ever heard of 'Dark Side of the Rainbow (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dark_Side_of_the_Rainbow)'?

-Dave

[Omega]

Heard of it, Never done it.

[Bucko]

You guys ever heard of 'Dark Side of the Rainbow (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dark_Side_of_the_Rainbow)'?

-Dave


Been there, tried that didn't think it worked properly.

[progbuddy]

kind of funny, i was just talking about the thirteenth step in another thread. thats my absolute favorite album, although my favorite song is the hollow on mer de noms... that song... wow... the guitars are just like some sort of cascading dreamscape. i cant even put it into words how much i just want to wrap myself up in that song. the tone is just awesome.

Fave song from Mer De Noms is 3 Libras...

I love how he keeps people on a wild goosechase.

[xRyokenx]

I just can't stop listening to these guys. I surf the web, I listen to Tool, I watch TV, I have one earphone on and am listening to Tool, I'm playing WoW, you guessed it, Tool. lol, not that it's a bad thing.

[DaveW]

I listen to Tool, I watch TV, I have one earphone on and am listening to Tool, I'm playing WoW, you guessed it, Tool.

Such a contender for the sig game, but Bucko's cover of Paint it black still wins i'm afraid...anyone else got space for this beast? ;)

-Dave

[jdbnsn]

You guys ever heard of 'Dark Side of the Rainbow'?

Yeah, that does work too. You have to start the album exactly during the third roars of the MGM Lion opening. The matches are very subtle though.

[progbuddy]

Such a contender for the sig game, but Bucko's cover of Paint it black still wins i'm afraid...anyone else got space for this beast? ;)

-Dave

heheh... I do.

I believe Anthony remembers how they just took a smoke break in the middle of the Tool concert... That was great.

... I start addictions to music :D.



This shows how much of a badass Maynard is...

Link. (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NtIRr9B9Hnk)

He keeps right on singing.

[b4i7]

im assuming that multiple songs tie together, such as rosetta stoned and faaip de oiad about what they are about

[jdbnsn]

Faaip and Rosetta are similar in context, I don't know for sure how interconnected they are. Rosetta stoned is a little deeper though going into the idea of a Messiah designated by alien beings to carry a message of dire importance to humanity ("a message of hope to those who listen, and a warning to those who don't": very similar to the message of Christ and Muhammed), and of course he forgot his pen to write it down. Then he's interrogated by the security forces at area 51 by loading him up with LSD ("dead head chemistry, blotters got me seeing E-muther****in-T") which was a common interrogation technique used by the CIA back in the 70's.

[b4i7]

what about the lost keys...the lead in to rosetta stoned

where have i heard it before?

[Ironcat]

"Dark Side" and "Wizard of Oz" is an urban legend.
The album is actually shorter than the movie and you can synch it in anywhere from the first roar, to the 3rd roar, to when the logo actually "fades to black" and it will still come out alright in the long run.
The human brain is designed to look for patterns, and tyou can synch up almost any movie and any CD if you give it enough time and mood altering substances.
I have heard that if you link up the original Willy Wonka movie and a Rammstein album and the scene where the kid is trapped in the TV came on, same time as the line "let me see you make decisions, without your televisions".

[jdbnsn]

There is a curious note about Rosetta however, the names Bob and Dave are found in the official lyrics, no one knows for sure who he is referring to but specualtion is that they are Bob Odenkirk and David Cross of the old program Mr. Show. Tool got along famously with the Mr. Show cast and have even had them on stage for a few performances doing skits. MJK started his career in Hollywood as a stnad up comic (which is where he met the legendary Bill Hicks-"another dead hero") and apparently the Mr. Show guys as well. MJK appears in several episodes of Mr. Show as a guy being arrested with Ronnie Dobbs and later as the singer for the band Puscifer along with Adam Jones. Since then, MJK has actually recorded a few songs (pretty damn good ones) under the Puscifer name. Check out their myspace page.

[jdbnsn]

"Dark Side" and "Wizard of Oz" is an urban legend.


It's not an urban legend in the sense that it does infact work, there are many subtle cooincidences when played together, I've done it several times. What I can't attest to is whether it was intentional by Pink Floyd or not, I suspect not.

[jdbnsn]

what about the lost keys...the lead in to rosetta stoned


Lost Keys (Blame Hoffman) Is the opening sequence to Rosetta and the Dr. Is attemping to interview a patient apparently wacked out on LSD. The big question is what follows, is Rosetta Stoned a flashback or memory being described to the Dr. or does it occur after the Dr. questions him as a delusion from the effects of the acid? Hoffman refers to Albert Hoffman, the swiss scientist who developed LSD from lysergic acid (I think before the 60's) and it was later used by Timothy Leary and John Lennon as a "Tool" for attaining enlightenment.

[jdbnsn]

The human brain is designed to look for patterns, and tyou can synch up almost any movie and any CD if you give it enough time and mood altering substances.

I do agree with you that this was likely found by cooincidence as you said many works can be combined to reveal similar phenomenon. This was also proven when the Bible Code "scientist's" theories were de-bunked by a guy who found the same types of messages hidden in Moby Dick.

[b4i7]

ya know...its really amazing how deep music can go if you start lookin for these things... if it wasnt for this thread.. i wouldnt have started noticing stuff like that

[b4i7]

the alright then picture this if you will at the beginning makes it hard to tell if hes hallucinating or if its a memory

the part about strapped down to my bed feet cold eyes red....im assuming thats when he is interrogated at area 51?

[xRyokenx]

...and in the end he's in the hospital or something I thought? Listen to Lost Keys first, that's like the prologue. I'll give it more thought tomorrow, I'ma go to bed in a sec, and hopefully not have woken up having spoken to ET and all and being strapped to it... lol.

[b4i7]

heh...ryoken...check the last page :D

[xRyokenx]

I apparently missed a bit, ah well... I'll make sure not to do this next time. :D

EDIT: About how drugs seem to enhance stuff, I've never taken any... I seem to find stuff out of the blue in things, like how my sense of humor has broadened recently, I find a lot of things funny that a lot of people don't, and other things not funny at all (personal preference, I know), but it's gotten a lot broader lately, I can also see things in music too, I just really get into really good music, Tool seems to have topped my list atm. If I got into drugs (which I am planning on never doing (at the moment anyway, that could change, but could take a LOT to do)) I am scared of what would happen, probably sensory overload or something that would drive me to insanity and would be very not fun. But yeah, continue on. I'ma head to bed, I'm tired.

[jdbnsn]

I think I interpreted it wrong earlier. It sounds more like rather than being interrogated at area 51, he overdosed on acid before being abducted. During his intense trip is when the beings took him by the hand and revealed his singular purpose. His mind is twisting and time seems to fade as he appears to be coming to in a hospital bed bound with restraints. The symptoms he describes do coincide with an acid overdose (sublethal that is).
"sunkist and sudafed" is a curious statement also. I have heard of people eating oranges to either control or enhance there psychidelic experience (also heard it doesn't work at all), sunkist is also a very common beverage stocked in hospitals. Sudafed (with pseudoephidrine) can be used to decrease the disorientation while tripping hard, but does nothing to shorten the length of the trip). The impression I get is he tripped his balls off on acid, and we the audience are to decide if the abduction was a real experience, or just in his mind.

[xRyokenx]

^^Makes sense. That seems like a good explanation. Fits better with what I've been thinking. When I ge thtat all refined, I'll let you guys know if I remember to.

[b4i7]

orange slices and fetal spooning...some reason that always gets stuck in my head

[jdbnsn]

I think it's Tool's way of teasing druggies. They often badger people who claim to use drugs to "clear their mind". This is much of what Sober is about, creative enhancement from a subtance that becomes an addiction.

[jdbnsn]

Sorry to keep hashing this thread up, but I love talkin about Tool. So anyway, I've spent years pondering different religions and the meaning of it all just like most everyone, and just like everyone I really don't "know" anything. I can explain nearly any phenomenon scientifically, but I can't ignore the fact that is doesn't fit as the whole story. I was listening to the song Right In Two which is about angels gazing down at humans in disgust at our conflicts for resources. These lyrics jumped out at me:

Angels on the sideline,
Puzzled and amused.
Why did Father give these humans free will?
Now they're all confused.


Angels on the sideline,
Baffled and confused.
Father blessed them all with reason.
And this is what they choose.

Repugnant is a creature who would squander
the ability to lift an eye to heaven,
conscious of his fleeting time here.


I'm not really religious in the sense of belonging to a specific doctrine (becoming a more and more popular point of view these days) but I am not without some faith and many unanswered questions. These lyrics set off a bomb in my head and suddenly something made sense to me about an old argument. The argument between athiests and non-athiests. The athiest asks "If God exists, then why doesn't he/she/it give us reliable proof instead of possibilities and prophets who speak in parables, so we would know there is a God?" The non-athiests that I have heard answer "Because He/She/It relies on you to have faith in him beyond your doubts, in the words of Christ, "Blessed are those who believe yet have not seen"".

I have suddenly developed a new take on this, and I apologize if this is common knowledge to the rest of you because it's news to me. According to myth, the angels in heaven are not that fond of humans, more to the point they are a bit jealous that God gave humans everything while angels were confined to an eternity of servitude. God's greatest gift to humankind was that of free will, something the angels never had. What would happen to free will if God made an absolutely undeniable presence in the face of humankind? I think Christ's phrase has been misinterpreted. Blessed are the people who have no evidence of God's existance unlike prophets and angels, because they still have free will. If you know for a fact that God exists, you don't have free will to make your own desicions, you are forced to behave as a subject of what you would then know to be your ultimate judge and jury. So the mysterious nature of a God actually protects human's free will, infact it wouldn't exitst without it.

Sorry about the brain dump, had to tell someone...

[Crazy Buddhist]

Blessed are the people who have no evidence of God's existance unlike prophets and angels, because they still have free will. If you know for a fact that God exists, you don't have free will to make your own desicions, you are forced to behave as a subject of what you would then know to be your ultimate judge and jury. So the mysterious nature of a God actually protects human's free will, infact it wouldn't exitst without it.

Sorry about the brain dump, had to tell someone...

Ok, ok .... but ....NO ..... NO ONE KNOWS if god exists or not. Atheists and Theists (believers) logically take identical stances:

Atheists believe in (NOT) God
Theists believe in God

God is described as "indescribable" ! And people are chosing to believe or not believe in this indescribable, ineffable "God" !

No one knows.

Agnostics admit this to themselves: "I don't know" from: A "Not " (latin/greek/sanskrtit) Gnostic "knowing" Greek

None of us know, agnosticism is the only rational position. It is irrational to either believe in God or not believe in God. It's also pointless. We each have to chose how to act for ourselves and carry with us the consequences of our actions (karma) for the time we are alive: be that until the grave or beyond as some believe: but again this is a subject where rationally one can only be agnostic, although, on balance, we have a bit more evidence that death is final than we do that God exists.

If there is a God up there ( :eek: ) I am pretty sure he would rather have people around him who have chosen to do the right things in life because they can and not because they are worried about not going to heaven. But frankly I don't give much of a hoot because I know I am a good man and if an all powerful God doesn't see that I don't think thats the sort of inneffable-personage-thingy I want to spend eternity with in any case.

Buddhist

[jdbnsn]

I think you missed my point. It's not about whether God exists or not. It's about the belief that the gift to humankind (free will) is only possible through the lack of evidence in his/her/it's existance. With direct evidence, you would be forced to obey out of fear or praise. Or you could oppose God and suffer the same consequences as Satan. But your free will would be essentially lost.

[jdbnsn]

Seriously I just printed that out. That was Phenominal.

-Jeremy
__________________

Hey thanks!

[Slug Toy]

well, im not religious, but im not atheist either, and im not agnostic. ill let people believe what they want, and ill do my own thing. for the longest time i was very focussed on the sciences, and didnt pay much attention to anything related to spirituality... but thats rapidly changing now. im not about to convert to christianity... but ive had a bit of free time (not anymore... just started my new job) to think about things. ive started contemplating the world and myself a lot more, and im starting to recreate ideas i had a few years ago.

i think "god" is a moot point in all this. i think if you take a real long look at the world and yourself, you eventually figure out that the closest thing to god is us. we are our own "god" and thats good enough in most cases. we are all gods and our perceived reality is our domain.

if i might pull a couple things from my poem/song/whatever that i wrote and posted a while back out of sheer joy, i think it might give for some good thought.



Collide with the smallest part of your conscience
And pose the greatest question ever told
For whose fault is it that life was so accidental
For whose fault is it that water was clear
For whose fault is it that wondrous events unfold
For whose fault is it to be judged at the pole
For whose fault is it that the soul does not remain
For whose fault is it that restores the texture to life
For whose fault is it that I love you


Not a presence was thorough enough to interpret fill but intention was maintained through sound and sight in the form of insight



now i dont want to get into what was going on when i wrote that stuff... i think most people can figure that out without too much trouble. what i DO want to talk about is what i actually wrote, because ill say this... the whole time i wrote that i didnt feel a thing and wasnt thinking at all, and this is practically straight from the heart.

the first "stanza" which i now call "for whos fault" is quite interesting to read as far as im concerned. i managed to mix in things that could be explained as gods fault, and other things that could be explained as your own fault, and others yet that may just seem stupid. ultimately, i think what i was getting at is its no ones fault at all. there are too many possible answer for there to be any literal reason... it is my (most definitely coherent) belief that there is no fault in the universe, just events.

the second "stanza" which i have yet to label... well that one is luckily a little easier for me to explain. i do remember what i was feeling at that point. my underlying message is one of sustained "enlightenment" through introspection... and thats the shortest way i can put it. in a somewhat obscure way, that stanza represents my belief that there is no god except possibly each and every one of us, and how i believe it is important to realize this. if you can reach this level of insight, you can see the world in a new way, and the work and sacrifice and possibly anguish will have been worth it.

those two stanzas contain ideas that are much deeper than i thought i was capable of. not only that, but i now see that these ideas may in fact have a place in this thread because A) i think ideas like this are good to discuss in general and B) im not a psychologist so if im wrong about myself and my thoughts... maybe someone will be able to point it out.

hopefully, though, i just blew someones mind. i really blew my own mind when i read my "poem" the morning after writing it.

[Crazy Buddhist]

I think you missed my point. It's not about whether God exists or not. It's about the belief that the gift to humankind (free will) is only possible through the lack of evidence in his/her/it's existance. With direct evidence, you would be forced to obey out of fear or praise. Or you could oppose God and suffer the same consequences as Satan. But your free will would be essentially lost.

Jon,

I think I didn't. I think I understand your reasoning but it is not logical. No one knows if God, Angels or Heaven exist. Full stop. Lots of people chose to believe either a) that they do or b) that they don't. These statements are logically pretty much identical because "God" is described as "indescribable".

The point is any discussion about God or (Not) God and what he/she/it does or doesn't do or did is meaningless because the word "God" is described as "not possible to give meaning to". Logically it follows that any discussion or argument that makes any reference to or relies upon the idea of God or (Not)God is also meaningless as the word "God" is defined as being indescribable.

Re free will: Most established theistic religions train kids from birth to fear "God" and his/her/it's "retribution" and try and please him/her/it to get to "heaven". So we aren't given free will at all: Our society saps it from us by programming fear into us so deeply that we are at a loss by the time we are adult to know what are our thoughts and what thoughts we have picked up off the floor/from parents/school/TV etc. As alan Watts - one of the greatest philosophers of the last century - wrote in his essay "Beat Zen, Square Zen and Zen":

"But the Westerner who is attracted by Zen and who would understand it deeply must have one indispensable qualification: he must understand his own culture so thoroughly that he is no longer swayed by its premises unconsciously. He must really have come to terms with the Lord God Jehovah and with his Hebrew-Christian conscience so that he can take it or leave it without fear or rebellion. He must be free of the itch to justify himself. Lacking this, his Zen will be either "beat" or "square," either a revolt from the culture and social order or a new form of stuffiness and respectability. For Zen is above all the Liberation of the mind from conventional thought, and this is something utterly different from rebellion against convention, on the one hand, or adopting foreign conventions, on the other."

Hope the sun is shining your side of the Pond today. London is wet and cold, after a brief summer that lasted approximately 5 days.

Best

Matthew

Edit: Watts Essay "Beat Zen, Square Zen, and Zen" is here (http://www.bluesforpeace.com/beat_zen.htm) - it makes interesting reading for anyone of any religion.

[nil8]

Actually Slug, you're tapping into a large part of what Crowley, LaVey & Aquino talk about.
It's said in many different ways.
Every man and woman is a star or thou art god or become the god you were born to be.

Basically, what you're talking about is something called the left hand path. It takes the notion of 'god' and all that entails and puts it into the hand of the practitioner. You are your own god, you create your own existance, and you must work to achieve both.

Many people view this as being egocentrical, and in some forms it is. That being said, many people forget that others can be gods themselves. The notion of 'worship me' in the mature mind turn into 'worship yourself'.

I could ramble on about precursory notions or the various groups I'm affiliated with, but that accomplishes little.

What does matter in all this is to not deny or repress this idea of being your own god. If you express it to those around you through your thoughts and actions, they will either flock to you or hate you, or both.

Watch out for those police raids.

[Crazy Buddhist]

the second "stanza" which i have yet to label... well that one is luckily a little easier for me to explain. i do remember what i was feeling at that point. my underlying message is one of sustained "enlightenment" through introspection... and thats the shortest way i can put it.


Slug - It says all you have to say and does so perfectly. It's beautifully put and your poem too.

Keep walking your walk man, you are following a true path. Jesus, Buddha they all said the same things: "The kingdom of heaven is within", "know thyself" etc etc etc. They didn't woe and scare people with tales of hell, they said "hey if you look inside you will find the answers to the questions you have".

[Crazy Buddhist]

The Messiah is back: hurrah !

IXQikj-C1tk

[DaveW]

None of us know, agnosticism is the only rational position. It is irrational to either believe in God or not believe in God. It's also pointless. We each have to chose how to act for ourselves and carry with us the consequences of our actions (karma) for the time we are alive: be that until the grave or beyond as some believe: but again this is a subject where rationally one can only be agnostic, although, on balance, we have a bit more evidence that death is final than we do that God exists.

That could be the first time I 100% agree with you dude.

Try to keep Religious matters in the realm of adult conversation everyone: we have a lot of pretty much everything on here, so be careful not to incite a flame war. Remember, we once perma-banned someone for saying Jews were cheap. We'll do the same to you if you make a similar mistake.

-Dave

[Crazy Buddhist]

That could be the first time I 100% agree with you dude. -Dave

Dave

That's definitely the first time I 100% agree with you.

:eek: What do we do now? :D:D:D

CrazyB

[DaveW]

Holy crap...guess I have to call you fat or something...y'know, just to keep the balance...

...but my heart just isn't in it today. I'll call you fat tomorrow.

-Dave

[Crazy Buddhist]

Holy crap...guess I have to call you fat or something...y'know, just to keep the balance...

...but my heart just isn't in it today. I'll call you fat tomorrow.

-Dave

heeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeee

you have no idea how funny that is. My natural hieght is 6'2", though I have admittedly lost 3 of the inches in the last three years. Making me 6' -1", of course. I used to weigh 13 stone but now fluctuate between 8 1/2 - 9, eating two fat meals a day and drinking four ensure plus drinks (330 kcal each).

I'm a thin emaciated buddhist not a fat chubby one.

:D

Matthew

[jdbnsn]

Keep in mind guys, what I wrote was an artistic interpretation of a song. Like Dave said, religious debates are not a great thing to do here. They very easily turn into bitter arguments.

[xRyokenx]

Bah, I go on tangents all the time, no worries. :D

Schism: Repairing a damaged friendship? Something along those terms.

Parabol & Parabola: About enjoying life because your time is limited and you don't know how many more chances you've got.

Lateralus: About something to do with thinking... I'm thinking maybe seeing two sides to a situation but nothing inbetween.

The Grudge: About how grudges tend to consume and tend to be the only thing focused on, they tend to destroy the life of the beholder of the grudge and possibly that of the one/few it's held against.

The Patient: Maybe about how patients stay in the hospital and are usually quite patient about the situation... maybe also about how their lives are in the hands of the doctor/caretaker and the staff.

...just what I got from a few songs while driving back home from NY. Not sure if I'm "right" or "wrong", just some thoughts I had, lol.

-Anthony

[jdbnsn]

Lol, awesome! I love it when I convince someone to check out Tool, and it's flattering that you liked my ramblings so much. Thanks dude!

Jon

[jdbnsn]

Schism: Repairing a damaged friendship? Something along those terms.


I absolutely love that you are thinking about these things. Here's my take on Schism, in a way I share the same view. The historical meaning of the word schism (literally=division) almost always refers to the the great division between the Eastern Othodox (Greek) from the Western Catholicism (Latin) over the disagreement on the extent of how far Papal authority should rule.
The term occurs in the New Testament. St. Paul characterizes and condemns the parties formed in the community of Corinth: "I beseech you, brethren", he writes, ". . . that there be no schisms among you; but that you be perfect in the same mind, and in the same judgment". The union of the faithful, he says elsewhere, should manifest itself in mutual understanding and convergent action similar to the harmonious co-operation of our members which God hath tempered "that there might be no schism in the body"

Now check this **** out, here is the song's meter (from wikipedia):


The song starts in 5/4 for one measure followed by 21 measures of 6/4 (or 5/8 and 7/8 alternating), up to the first interlude, which is a bar of 3/8, three bars of 13/8, and a bar of 10/8. (This can be also interpreted as four 13/8 bars, but played with a 3/8 upbeat.) The next verse is eight bars all in 6/4 followed by another interlude that fits the same pattern as the first. This brings us to the "The poetry that comes..." section, which is four bars of 6/4 followed by one bar of 11/8. Another eight-bar verse in 6/4 follows, with an interlude containing the same as before, except this time the final 10/8 bar is replaced with an 11/8 bar setting up the middle section, which is four bars of 7/4 before settling into a pattern of alternating 12/8 and 15/8, one bar each, twelve times, containing the "Cold silence..." lyrics. At this point, at the end of the word "compassion", there are three bars of 4/4 (which nearly sounds foreign at this point), a bar of 2/4, and four bars of 4/4 setting up the "Between supposed lovers" section, which is two bars of 9/8 followed by a bar of 10/8, that pattern again, a single bar of 9/8 followed by a 13/8 bar. This leads to an alternating set of 9/8 and 5/8, appearing four times before a bar of 9/8 and a bar of 6/8. The ending "I know the pieces fit" lyrics bring back the 6/4 meter for eight bars, followed by eight bars of 4/4 to end the song. The band has comically said that the song is in "6.5/8".

Notice that last line? 6.5/8? Ever heard of the Golden Ratio devised by the Greeks and used to design many of their architectural structures (most notable is the Parthenon). The Golden Ratio is described by the Greeks as the "perfect union of dimensions", and "The Divine Proportion". 6.5/8=.813 Golden Ratio=1.63 If you divide The Golden Ration in half= .813
The brilliance of the Golden Ratio is if you draw a rectangle using this ratio, then square it using the length of the short side, the remaining space left over is a new Golden Rectangle of the same proportions.
http://www.thebestcasescenario.com/jdbnsn/misc/250px-FakeRealLogSpiral.png

Now check out the lyrics:

I know the pieces fit 'cause I watched them fall away
Mildewed and smoldering, fundamental differing
Pure intention juxtaposed will set two lovers' souls in motion
Disintegrating as it goes, testing our communication
The light that fueled our fire then has burned a hole between us so (like the friendship you spoke of Anthony)
We cannot see to reach an end, crippling our communication

I know the pieces fit 'cause I watched them tumble down
No fault, none to blame, it doesn't mean I don't desire
To point the finger, blame the other, watch the temple topple over
To bring the pieces back together, rediscover communication

The poetry that comes from the squarin' off between
And the circling is worth it, finding beauty in the dissonance

There was a time that the pieces fit but I watched them fall away
Mildewed and smoldering, strangled by our coveting
I've done the math enough to know the dangers of a second guessing
Doomed to crumble unless we grow and strengthen our communication

Cold silence has
A tendency to
Atrophy any
Sense of compassion

Between supposed brothers
Between supposed lovers


So in essence, I agree with your assesment, it is about maintaining relationships by not allowing differences in ideas or interpretations overpower our compassion.

[xRyokenx]

"So in essence, I agree with your assesment, it is about maintaining relationships by not allowing differences in ideas or interpretations overpower our compassion."

My whole idea with dealing with people. I don't care if you're Hitler, I'ma be polite to you so long as you don't give me reason to not be pleasant around you. :D

[jdbnsn]

Well, I don't exactly agree with pacifism either. Hitler had plenty of reasons for me to want to bust a cap in his ass. It's the whole harmony in balance issue, no light without dark, no compassion without conflict.

[xRyokenx]

I know, just an example. There are some people I can't stand either... but they're people I know, for all I know I could've been best friends with Hitler/Stalin/whoever or been their worst enemy, it depends on the person and the situation.

[slytherock]

It's the salesman way of thinking ;)

[b4i7]

i take schism as the falling and repair of a relationship and how communication is the key factor to having your relationship

[nil8]

I'm astounded you're reading this much into Tool's work.
At the same time, they're the only band I can think of that could be a useful notion.

Maybe that's the deep down secret of why we connect to their music, because we know there's something more there than what's obvious.

In any case, this thread makes me really want to listen to Tool. I shall do so.

[jdbnsn]

I'm astounded you're reading this much into Tool's work.

You know what would be funny, if we met Tool and found out they have no idea what the hell we're talking about, Maynard: "Schism was about keeping the peas out of my mashed potatos"

[xRyokenx]

You know what would be funny, if we met Tool and found out they have no idea what the hell we're talking about, Maynard: "Schism was about keeping the peas out of my mashed potatos"

That would be hysterical... it would be fun to meet them though... they seem like they'd be interesting to talk to so long as we don't jump on the stage like a retard just to get our ass kicked, lol.

[nil8]

Call me crazy but they don't strike me as idiots.
I'd probably do more talking with Danny Carey than anyone else. Really strange occultist.

I'm going to bang my head against my desk for the last 5 minutes of work. Excuse me.

[jdbnsn]

Danny Carey grew up not far from where I did (Wichita, KS I think) and used to play for the Pigmy Love Circus. I think hanging out with them would be a little unconfortable, with their life experiences, I doubt many of us could keep up with the conversation. Plus, they have extremely eccentric tastes that would baffle us, but it would be very interesting just the same. Carey has been praised as one of the best drummers in music today, due mostly to his style of polyrhythms, he claims that he found himself moving the drumsticks in a similar pattern as his father's sword was swung around in some occult ritual he witnessed as a child (probably something like teh Scottish Rite). In my opinion, the best drumming he has done was on Undertow. Close your eyes and try to isolate all of the separate rhythms of each drum and each symbol (spelling?) as he plays. It seems impossible when you put it all together, it just doesn't sound like you could move your arms like that.

[xRyokenx]

When I get in the mood to where I can soak everything in, it's like a high in itself. For me, it's like, who needs drugs when you've got good music, games, books, etc. that give there own kind of high? Linkin Park has some good stuff too (Meteora and Hybrid Theory, Minutes to Midnight was a disappointment), but not as good as Tool... reminds me, one more thing on my list of things to do in this life besides learn to play guitar, learn to sword fight too... just have to find out when is good to learn and do these things, life is busy right now and I'm starting school. This spring I have planned to start guitar lessons. This music does more than make me think, it inspires me :D.