Just want to let everyone know I came to this thread, I learned, and I now.... still hate chemistry with a passion for some reason. Love algebra hate chemistry which is probably a/b(t*y)% algebra anyway.
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Just want to let everyone know I came to this thread, I learned, and I now.... still hate chemistry with a passion for some reason. Love algebra hate chemistry which is probably a/b(t*y)% algebra anyway.
I believe all modern CPUs use IHSs, even AMD. I think the reason they're not used on GPUs (iirc, nVidia doesn't use them either) is because the chip itself is so freakishly huge that it already has plenty of surface area to contact the heatsink, whereas with a CPU the chip itself is quite small and the IHS serves to increase the contact area with the heatsink.Quote:
Originally Posted by Konrad
Like SXR said, it's just TIM; those chips are actually surface-mount with all the contacts on the bottom of the chip.Quote:
Originally Posted by Konrad
All moderon CPUs from AMD and Intel use IHS's. Not sure about Sun, IBM, etc chips, and yes, nVidia (last I checked) does not use IHS's probably due to what x88x said...Freakishly HUGE chips.
Also, extra TIM
Most chip companies use an IHS, simply to cut down on returns. If it runs 10C cooler, but you get a 30% OEM return rate, nobody cares.
I was thinking about this as well, and it's easily avoided by milling the edges of the HS base to fit within the socket cover. Though cracking the die itself is a possibility, I would expect one to be extremely careful with a several hundred to thousand dollar chip.Quote:
Originally Posted by Oneslowz28
So you're planning on risking a thousand dollar processor to replace the copper IHS with a slightly more conductive material? It's not worth it. Mill an air cooler or waterblock to fit directly on the die. The less layers the heat has to travel through, the better. As for the 'lego' design, there would be absolutely no way to effectively apply a TIM to that surface, so you'd end up with a net effect of less efficient heat transfer. If you were machining a part to mate flush with another, it would be much easier to minimize tolerances by making them completely flat rather than any other shape.Quote:
Originally Posted by Konrad
[slight thread jack]
In my own bid for a new TIM, would it be possible to ionize atomized copper powder so the particles mostly repel each other thus filling any air gaps? The powder could be suspended in a fast evaporating liquid that essentially leaves a 'solid' copper film between the parts. This would be incredibly hard to store for any amount of time, I'm sure, but it might be feasible to whip up a batch the day of the processor installation.
[/slight thread jack]
Shows what I know ;)
Well, obviously a superior TIM is the way to go on GPU ...
@ mDust
Your savage debunking of my wild lego-block idea sadly makes perfect sense. Simple flats are better than interlocks. I can see some arguments promoting perfectly mated curved surfaces since they'd have more surface area than flat, but I think the better perspective (assuming same metals on IHS and HS) is to remember that the only practical effect of these curves or interlocks or whatever is to increase the surface area (and air gaps) of the inefficient TIM layer within the otherwise homogenous thermal block.
Not sure how your ionized copper idea would work. How would you prevent ions from interacting with electronic circuits? Wouldn't an ionized metal be highly corrosive? If exposed directly to the die then condensation might become an issue. If not exposed directly to the die (ie, used within a sealed vapor-phase loop cooler) then you'll need something else to act as the TIM. Just my thoughts.
It wouldn't come anywhere near any circuits. Potentially corrosive? Yes. Condensation? Possibly, but I doubt it. Under normal circumstances if the liquid is evaporating, it's not going to be condensing at the same time.Quote:
Originally Posted by Konrad
Ideally, the copper powder would be sandwiched between a copper IHS and a copper base-plate of the HS. As the liquid evaporates it floats away, never to be seen again. It would be like a fraction of an oz so it shouldn't take too long to evaporate away and 'cure'. Maybe a day or two of operation?
It seems a bit bizarre to me. A continuously eroding heatsink? I understand phase cooling, and I accept that some kind of liquefying copper process might be possible below the normal liquidus/melting range for copper (~ 830-1080C). Obviously you're not talking about a molten copper heatsink, just one where copper ions are continuously flowing away like a liquid (and presumably taking a lot of heat with them) ... how? Using excitation of lasers or voltage pulses to stimulate the exposed copper? Using MHD to cycle the "liquid" ions away? I'll admit I don't quite understand your concept. Not saying it can't work, just saying I don't understand it.
[Edit]
It occurs to me is that all this reduction of copper will result in another problem. Either a vacuum is created, or something else (probably air) fills the volume of the displaced copper. I would suspect that air would be uncooperative and insist on coating as much copper as it can with oxides. An oxidizing reaction would produce (a lot of) it's own heat while converting copper (both the ions and the metal base) into nasty thermally inefficient patina.
No. He wants to suspend the copper atoms (ions) in a liquid (water, or such) and apply it like a TIM. Then the water would evaporate, leaving just copper filling the gaps.
Ah, an aqueous soldering approach. It's just an application of "electroplating" - remember that electricity isn't strictly required to make the reaction work, it just shifts the equilibrium point and makes it much faster.
It's a good idea. The obvious downside is you'd have a hell of a time ensuring even evaporation. Any trapped pockets of water will drastically reduce efficiency of the cooling interface, along with other problems. You'd also have to constantly add more (aqueous dissolved) copper into the solution at a controlled rate, as the molar concentration will keep on diminishing while it deposits. Any impurities in the water would likely turn into Slightly Bad Things. I imagine you'd want to apply heat (perhaps 100C water boiling heat) to finish the join before x-mas.
I think it's possible. It might be easier (more economical) to simply copper braze the two parts together, or machine them from a single block in the first place, then attach to processor afterwards. Probably won't get as good as just tossing the IHS out the window.
all right, wow!
I've gotten all messages sent to me, I'm currently fighting a literally life-threatening infection but I've read, studied, looked some more and gone back and done more work.
Konrad's got it with pyrolytic graphite, if I read that PM correctly. Let me map out some stuff on paper, and then I'll propose an experiment. I want to make sure we get this to work right.
Guys, we're on the cusp of something here. Konrad and I have got some stuff going, and I wanna see what CJ has come up with on the diamond paste front-I think we could set some records.
But first, more pills. All messages should be sorted and replied to tomorrow. All I have to do is work on this.
Keep me posted too Kayin!
As amazing as highly oriented pyrolytic graphite (HOPG) might be serving as a TIM, I expect it might be a slight evolutionary refinement instead of a completely revolutionary one. Knock temps down by a handful of C's at best, maybe not even that much since Arctic 5 is already pretty kickass stuff. As I've explained to Kayin, application is a bit more involved than with a "normal" TIM but still well within the abilities of serious modders and OCers. And it doesn't require any blowtorching, even though I'm sure somebody crazy will figure out a way to do it.
@ Kayin
Don't kill yourself, man - good luck and best health. K&K cooling can wait.
My PMs only discussed my findings on (HOPG) TIM. Never got around to addressing the HS.
To be honest, there's really not anything I can do to improve on decades of HS engineering. What I can do is fab parts that use only best materials, intelligent design, and finest precision. Any basic HS improvements you see will only be the result of not cutting corners.
I assume you'd want solid copper throughout, of course. Silver would serve better but is a wee bit too expensive for this project, solid carbon forms (diamond, graphite, fiber, nanostuff, etc) would be far more expensive and probably impossible for me to obtain or machine in any event.
I'd like to know if you're looking at a HS/fan block or a waterblock. Either way, I need accurate dimensional data. In the latter case, I'd need to know all about your fittings and such, plus what sorts of liquid coolants you circulate if they have corrosive properties - I might be able to select alloys, plating, or finishes which resist chemical attack without much reduction in thermal efficiency. I've never actually watercooled a PC myself, but I think I'm well-versed in the basics. Any wisdom you'd care to offer (beyond the linky already given) couldn't hurt.
[Edit]
Does anyone have any real DATA on this indigo extreme stuff? All I can find is marketing blurbs and amateur reviews, but I am intrigued. I am of course already very familiar with Arctic 5 and similar products, so anything less doesn't interest me.
Konrad, I'm working on a PM as a feasibility study on some things, and I'll sort materials there. I've some ideas kicking around in my head...
http://skinneelabs.com/tim2010part1.html
There's an actual review lab's take on the deal, with proper repeatable results.
And folks, if you give me 10 bucks an application, I can make it for you too! It's low-melt silver/indium/bismuth alloy. No gallium, which I'd expect to see, but without an MSDS, I can't tell you much more. I'm still hunting one.
I'm betting that we could do the same with solder, if we wanted to risk some boards. Who's with me?
I thought the solder paste idea was already sort of ruled out?
[Edit]
The Indigo Xtreme MSDS isn't published ("As Indigo Xtreme is considered a manufactured item and does not release any hazardous chemicals, it is exempt from requiring a MSDS.")
The Enerdyne Solutions site here has the Indigo2 datasheet and a variety of technical papers, application notes, etc. None of them specifically state Indigo's proprietary formula or constituents.
Indigo complies with RoHS; it therefore contains no lead, cadmium, or mercury (outside of trace impurities). The advertisments state absolutely no lead and state no gallium.
Indigo is "patent pending" the old trick that let's a company secure their patent claim while delaying submission of an official patent application (disclosing all the proprietary details) into public domain. ("patent pending" might also mean it's something worthless that needs a bit of "official" credence, you haven't yet prepared a proper patent application, you can't afford to, or you may withdraw or change the product ... I personally doubt that's often the case with big companies like Enerdyne.)
Nonetheless, I searched through all the online patents involving Enerdyne, PCMA, and TI anyhow with no luck.
Enerdyne seems to hold a monopoly on this product; Indigo is not rebranded and sold by any other Semi-Therm registered manufacturer/vendor (listed here, overviewed here.)
Indium-containing alloys have intermetallic problems with copper. These problems might be addressable with the addition of other metallic components, or they might not.
I've just ordered the $22 Indigo Xtreme LGA1366/i7 kit from DazMode (the only vendor of this product in Canada); I will sacrifice it to the metallurgical boys and their spectrum analysis to determine exactly what the precise constituents of this alloy are (ideally so I can have cheap batches made in-shop for personal use).
I'm a little unclear if Indigo Xtreme and Indigo2 are the same product.
I've got an idea that I picked up from my silver nanofluid that I'm wondering about for everyman's diamond paste.
I'm thinking about acquiring a sample of polydimethylsiloxane and suspending diamond powder in it. That stuff resists pumping more than just about anything short of a brick, and if I load it enough, I get a bouncy, high-yield TIM that ca be used as a rubber ball if I'm bored.
I think CJ's vacuum chamber experiment may have been misplaced.
Alternately, I've got the means to whip up a few things of my own. I think I have a real idea going here. The question is do I have access to what I need to make it work. More in ten.
Bugger. PDMS is a GREAT insulator-like heat-resistant reentry tile great. More searching.
Literally 10? I'm waiting!
We all are waiting! I logged back on just to see this...:DQuote:
Originally Posted by Trace
Graphite. As in dry graphite for film lubrication. It's almost as good as diamond, and available in GREAT quantity for dirt cheap. I'll make my own paste up this week.
Well, if you're gonna go with graphite, then HOPG would seem the best choice ...
Sure would.
Now what was the price on that? You are absolutely correct, pyrolytic graphite is the best, but considering dry graphite is so bloody cheap, we could always tack together something workable and test it. The stuff you were talking about seems well beyond what most people can do. This will be a lot like AS5, but better thermally, we'll have the ability to manufacture in bulk, and we can market it with little issue.
If you can get it cheap, though, I'm all for it. I can make a base for it on the fly, so if you can get it cheap I'll make up some of it and test it too.
I love having compounding materials here at the house...
lol, you could always try pyrolysis-at-home with a pressure cooker. End result might not be "purest" grade, but it should be good enough and low cost. You'll know it's done when a sample can be magnetically levitated.
If you'll get me the instructions, I'll try and get a cheap pressure cooker for the thrift store. This could get FUN!
This has not been abandoned. If I get a pressure cooker, how much pressure?
:? Geez...what are you doing now?Quote:
Originally Posted by Kayin
10-20psi I think. 15psi is the standard cooking pressure.
To make pyrolytic graphite?
Haha, er ... sorry to get your hopes up with my own high hopes.Quote:
Originally Posted by Konrad
I think you'd need some serious industrial pressure. Like, hydraulic compression in a blast furnace kinda stuff. Not as much as you'd need to synthesize diamonds, but not far off.
You could try pressure-cooking at home, ramp it up as hot and high as you can (safely) get it. The results would be pretty interesting.
HAHA! As interesting as it would be, I would publicly advise against this... Why? *BANG! SIRENS. FAMILY CRYING AT YOUR FUNERAL.* That's why. :)Quote:
Originally Posted by Konrad
lol, no doubt Kayin is more qualified that I am at mad science anyhow.Quote:
Originally Posted by Konrad
But a safety reminder never hurts, eh? Modding ain't as much fun when you're bleeding and burning.
Hey, don't knock it until you've tried it!:DQuote:
Originally Posted by Konrad
I have tried it but it's so great.. cutting your self with plexi SUCKS.Quote:
Originally Posted by mDust
Update, I do have a partially completed TIM sitting in a jar here at the house. Currently waiting on some more high-quality graphite powder to finalize it. Keep watching for more updates.
Preliminary testing (will be posting graphs soon) shows that it actually works!
It's (without giving too much away) a mineral oil based TIM that's bulk loaded with aluminium powder and high-quality microfine powder graphite (no molybdenum) with some calcium oxide to keep everything in solution.
My testing is limited by the fact that my i7 shipped with a half-height cooler that's pretty much crap, and I have no other viable coolers to test with. However, it did pass a 30-minute OCCT test, which is the first step in verifying everything. Tomorrow, I'll be getting syringes to load this up and get this ready to send out to a few people for testing.
At this point, I'm not completely sure just HOW good it is, but I know that it acted in certain situations better than the cured MX-2 I had on there before. How much of that is the TIM and how much of that is the crappy, crappy cooler is yet TBD.
Get me a tube. I'll test it