No, with one you're teaching him how to fish, and with the other, you're bandaging his wounded arm so he can keep fishing...Quote:
Originally Posted by xr4man
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No, with one you're teaching him how to fish, and with the other, you're bandaging his wounded arm so he can keep fishing...Quote:
Originally Posted by xr4man
I dunno, I'm Canadian so I already have socialized healthcare and education... It's not perfect but at least we're ranked in the top 10, if not top 5 for things like overall national health, education and quality of life... It's easy to leave someone in the gutter and say they deserve what they get because they haven't worked as hard as you have, but given their life you would have likely ended up in the same gutter.
Everyone needs a helping hand at some point, sure some people abuse "charitable" systems but if you revoke those systems because of the abusers then people who have potential to turn their life around don't get help either and society as a whole suffers for it.
Tying this back into the whole patent debate it's a matter of morality, products that benefit everybody should be available to everybody and everything should be done to further research without the primary motivator being profit but at the same time we must consider that the companies doing the research do need profit to continue their research so a balance must be struck... This basic logic applies to everything in life, it's not about right or wrong, it's about balance.
I don't either.Quote:
Originally Posted by dr.walrus
I also don't think they deserve the same care as someone who works their ass off either. Basic health care sure. Even preventative care since that usually keeps costs down in the long run. Things like plastic surgery (for no real reason other than vanity), or any other elective surgery stuff. Hell, I would even push for all pubescent teens get the implanted birth control and only have it removed when/if they graduate High School, so we don't have to pay for all the unwanted teen pregnancies. (I will probably get flamed for that last statement)
Basically I just don't feel we as a society should be rewarding laziness or complacency but again, society should take care of its own. We are a "civilized" species after all.
JFK said it pretty well (even though he plagiarized the line somewhat); "And so my fellow Americans, ask not what your country can do for you; ask what you can do for your country."
I am a very strong believer in that statement.
I must point out that I was born into and raised by a family that prided itself on scamming the system. Most of my Siblings, Mother, Aunt, Cousins, etc, worked harder at scamming the welfare and medicare system than they would working a regular job. They still do. I have zero respect for them because of it.
Here is the thing though and it goes back to my original post on this subject; Humans by nature are only out for themselves. Changing this would be like trying to change the ocean tides. We have to learn to work with it and use it to societies advantage. Opening a patent to the world because it would benefit everybody is not the right way to go about it. Where would the incentive be for ANY money to be invested when someone else could come along and make money off of your research or basic patent. You are right, there needs to be a balance, but who decides what is balanced?Quote:
Originally Posted by RogueOpportunist
Well therein lies the problem that has plagued us since the beginning of time, as you point out we are not naturally beings of balance, we are beings of excess... Does that mean we are doomed to fail? Who knows... The only thing I know for sure is the struggle of existence isn't going away any time soon so it's a good idea to stop what you are doing and enjoy those little moments of tranquility when they present themselves. :up:Quote:
Originally Posted by Airbozo
Then there are those of us that worked for years, paid in and then something happened to them. Like finding my aorta is blowing up like a balloon. Not something you have control over.
The problem is that I hear every day about the people abusing the system, when honestly more people have real issues that can and will (and often do) kill them and they get no health care because even if they're working they can't afford it. Very few people can afford some things-my heart surgery will be close to a million dollars. You got that lying around? I sure don't. So since I can't pay, should I just die and leave a baby and wife? There are plenty of people who say yes. I'm pretty sure if it happened to them the tables would turn. Let alone cases like my son, whose care is well into the millions by now-he'll possibly never be able to work, so should we just euthanize him since he'll never pay taxes? I've been told yes by a few people-but where does that leave us? Somewhere south of human, by my estimation.
In a culture like that, I'd withhold discoveries knowing that it will be used solely as a moneymaking vehicle and any help rendered no matter how necessary is completely secondary. If I can't make it freely available, I will find a place I can.
Some of us would eat the costs of R&D (and I do know how high they are, thanks) to ensure that people would truly benefit without strings attached.
i was actually thinking specifically of you and your family when i said
"on the other hand though, if someone had circumstances beyond their control, then i have no problem with my hard earned tax dollars going to help them out." you are 100% right, not many people have the dough laying around to pay for the surgeries you and your fam need just to live.
my problem is with people that laze their way through life thinking they deserve free handouts from the government which in turn comes from the rest of us who actually work to pay our taxes.
Yeah but the real problem is that is not the majority of the population, it is a minority contingent, for the most part social programs do work to help those in need, this is the same argument I see the right use in the media all the time, they take the 10% minority and call it the 90% majority and then take the 90% majority and make it out to be the 10% minority... You have to take the good with the bad but there isn't "that" much bad.Quote:
Originally Posted by xr4man
Anyone that is against social health systems isn't justified in saying they are against them because of the freeloaders when good upstanding people are dying as a result of their beliefs, leaving families to struggle with massive debt and increasing the overall poverty level of the country... If you have to support a few freeloaders to help millions of deserving families isn't it worth it? Isn't that cost justified? Even if 50 cents out of every dollar you put into the system went to someone who didn't deserve it wouldn't the 50 cents that went to Kayin and his family be worth the cost? None of us have the millions of dollars Kayin needs, but none of us would miss 20 or 30$ out of our paychecks either and no matter where that money goes that 20 or 30$ would at least ensure someone like Kayin had a better chance... Isn't that something worth having?
My Father has Parkinson's Disease, he was a Firefighter for over 30 years and risked his own life to save others god only knows how many times, now as a reward for putting himself in harms way he's slowly going to degenerate into what I can only say isn't a pretty picture... If it wasn't for being in Canada he would be for lack of a better word... f-cked... Why? Because Fighterfighter's don't get paid 600,000 dollars a year, they don't even make the 6 figure mark at all... It's a blue-collar job... Go talk to any of the guys who tried to help at ground zero after Sept. 11th who now have heart conditions and respiratory ailments and coincidentally also don't have proper health-care how they feel about facing a slow lingering death because helping them might help a few "freeloaders"... The arguments against socialized health-care are ALL invalid, flawed or not, being against any system that could help these people is just morally wrong.
P.S. I'm not saying anything directly about you, your statements or your beliefs because I honestly don't know what your stance on the whole thing is, I'm just replying to certain notions you put forth.
Kayin, All of us agree that the situation you and your son are in ( and many others) are exactly the situation we (as a collective society) would be providing care for because we are supposed to be a civilized society and take care of those that cannot (key word) provide for themselves. This is part of what makes humans better than the other species on the planet. We can CHOOSE to take care of our sick and wounded instead of culling them from the herd.Quote:
Originally Posted by Kayin
The specific abusers of the system are those that CAN contribute to society, but knowingly choose not to, then expect handouts for nothing.
I know this is getting off topic...
As to paying for R&D on a personal basis, I do support certain activities that benefit mankind as a whole. Cancer research, MS, Alzheimer, etc., but in the end my donations will end up funding a company that will turn around and take that medical breakthrough and make tons of money from it.
One idea is that IF a company takes public funds for research, the results of that research should fund, first, the company's loss plus a little profit (for incentive, otherwise the risk would not be worth it), then be open to the public, much the way the GNU licensing works.
Wall Street? :DQuote:
Originally Posted by Airbozo