-= For Noobs =- (self proclaimed or otherwise)

At the expense of getting my sorry butt banned, I'm writing this little tidbit to bring all the new people to modding up to speed. There are things others can help you with and things only you can do for yourself.

Let's talk about your first mod here. I have seen countless posts all over modding forums (not just this one) where new users ask for help with ideas for their first mod. I'm going to break down your first mod for all of you, so you don't need to post 'help me with ideas.'

How to Start a Computer Mod
Before you rip that case apart there are things you need to know.

1. Your casemod needs a theme. All case mods have them. You can argue this point until you are blue in the face, so don't bother. How do you choose a theme? That's both easy and difficult - a real paradox. Your theme can be colour based (green and purple, or cool colours, or hot colours, or no colours.), based on a movie genre (horror, sci-fi, western, action, etc.), shape based, based on your favorite band, or television show. You can decide to theme it based on the surroundings (i.e., Make it part of the computer desk, or integrate your box and monitor, or anything else you can think of. This one point is the basis for all modding.
   
2. You need tools to do the job. Chances are, most of you living in the free world, who have graduated high school have taken at least one shop class. This class would have familiarized you with some basic tools. If not, there is very little I or any other modder can do for you except recommend a community college to take a course on shop tools. Below, at the end of this post, you will find a list of the more basic tools you will need to do most modding.
   
3. You need a space to do your work. Like a painter needs an easel to paint on, you need a place to do your masterpiece. The size of the space matters only in that you will need space to move and to spread out your project. You will need space to house your tools, and if you're like me, you'll need space to hold all the excess components you've amassed over the years.
   Get a workbench. Don't break the bank, but don't cheap out either. For most modding, a workmate portable bench will suffice, but sometimes that just doesn't cut it. Only you will know what size bench you need.
   
4. You need time to commit to the project. This will involve construction, but it also includes research time. Not everyone knows how to solder up LEDs properly, and without proper research, your LEDs will fry and you will be most upset that all your hard work went out the window. Do your research. Though the net is a great resource, remember one thing, most of the sites out there that provide free information are created by people who aren['t paid to provide accurate information. The library, however, contains a resource some of the younger audience may not be familiar with - books. Books are printed to be sold. The information in resource material has been verified by people paid by the publishing houses to ensure validity. Textbooks like highschool electronics are very accurate resources.
   
5. Patience is required. If it feels rushed, you aren't doing it right. Above all else, you've taken on this project as an outlet of entertainment or recreation. When you're on vacation you go to relax. Think of each modding session as a mini-vacation from the outside world. Enjoy each cut, each connection, each pass with the spray can. If you can't enjoy it, don't do it.
   
6. Log everything. Keep a notepad and pen at arms length. When you cut out the rivets holding in the drive cage, write it down. This log will be your roadmap. If you need to refer back to how you did something, you'll be glad if you made notes.
   
7. Safety first. Always wear your safety goggles. I tell people I'd rather look like a nerd in my garage when I'm modding, than a freak when I leave the house. Unplug your tools when you're done. Don't run with scissors, and look both ways before crossing the road.

That covers the basics. Feel free to ask me to clarify, and I gladly will.

Now, as promised the list of tools and such you should not be without.

• A good Mallet
• A vise
• Assorted screwdrivers
• Drill
• Assorted Drill bits for metal and wood/plastic
• Jigsaw
• Safety glasses or full face shield
• Rotary cutting tool (Dremel)
• Torx set
• Assorted clamps
• Random orbital sander
• soldering iron/gun
• File set for metal
• grinder
• drillpress (not entirely necessary)
• tap and die set

Happy modding.

Im gonna go ahead and seriously disagree with rule #1 because most works of art are not planned or thought out in advance. You dont have to have the finished project invisioned in your head. So no theme is required, will it be a good idea and will it be easier? Yes. but its not neccessary. Art can also be sculpted and it can take shape during the modding process. I have had finished thoughts in my head and halfway through saw something else and completely did a 180 on it. As for tools more than half of those are also not neccessary. fishies, thanx however for taking your time in writing that post, I may or may not edit it in the future. Im still thinking about it. But thank you for your time and thought.

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Originally Posted by ZeD

Im gonna go ahead and seriously disagree with rule #1 because most works of art are not planned or thought out in advance. You dont have to have the finished project invisioned in your head. So no theme is required, will it be a good idea and will it be easier? Yes. but its not neccessary. Art can also be sculpted and it can take shape during the modding process. I have had finished thoughts in my head and halfway through saw something else and completely did a 180 on it. As for tools more than half of those are also not neccessary. fishies, thanx however for taking your time in writing that post, I may or may not edit it in the future. Im still thinking about it. But thank you for your time and thought.

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You're kidding, right? Show me any case, modded or otherwise, and I'll tell you its theme. Any respectible artist never just starts a piece of art without some sort of plan. If that's what you do, good for you, however, all these new people wanting help with their first modding by asking what they should do are much better off thinking out their project, rather than just cut here, paint there. With a theme, they have a roadmap, and will find the entire experience much easier and enjoyable. If you actually read the post, rather than skimming it, nowhere did I say that changes couldn't be made. Doing a 180 on a roject is par for the course sometimes. Sometimes, a fan won't fit where you want it, or the aint didn't dry like you imagined, so sometimes you need to revise your plan.

Modding a computer is like building a house. Do you see contractors going in with no blueprint and just putting up walls and windows and doors? Imagine the result. Maybe you want to live in that house, but not me.

Don't be concerned about editing my work. You don't need to, nor should you, as the information I have provided is accurate for any and all modders. Disagree if you want, and maybe we should have a vote, but arbitrarily editing someone's post is ignorant at the very least. It's like me coming to your house, crapping on your bed and telling you it's chocolate.

I think both of you need to put down the dremel...

Zod - I dont think fishies means plan out the entire case before you start. You use works of art as an example for why it is ok to just start working. Think of it this way, a mod is normally more like a series of art works. True you can start the first peice without any direction, but in order to make a statement, the rest would need to be based on the first. Honestly, I think Fishies has the right idea. I dont think any of us think you have to have the finished product designed before you start, but as fishies said, it is a good idea to at least know what direction you want to go.


Now as far as the tools listed .. I agree that some of those are not really needed. I mean, do you really need a tap and die if you are not going to tap anything (most new people dont).

Also, I think #7 should be #1 and #8... Safety cannot be stressed enough.


Anyway ... Good job Fishies :) ... Remember that there will always be people who want to add/change/remove something about whatever type of guide someone writes. I cannot count how many dremel cutting guides are out there that I think are wrong and I know some people dont agree with mine :)

Jesder,

Couldn't agree more with your first part. I've worked on other projects, where everything is planned out, and some idea of a finished product is in my head. Half way through the project, I realize something won't work, r better still, smething else will work better, but some modification of the plan needed to change drastically.

Without even an idea of what you're out to make, how do you know what to do? Do you need to cut holes? If so, what size/shape will they be?

Safety should be first.

That is a very general list, meant to be taken and fit to the new user's needs. Trust me though, when you strip the threads in your case, and need new threads, you'll be cursing this day, and your post. ;)

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Originally Posted by JesDer

Remember that there will always be people who want to add/change/remove something about whatever type of guide someone writes.

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Wanting to edit, and saying it will be edited are two different things. I'm not getting into this though, as I really wasn't looking for a fight. I see points that need editing, and suggesting sme points, as you did will most likely edit some points, and clarify a few others. I'll most likely add a list of common consumable materials used (at least by myself) when doing a project.

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Originally Posted by fishies

I'll most likely add a list of common consumable materials used (at least by myself) when doing a project.

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That is the thing about modding .. There is no right/wrong way to do things. If it works then do it. I find that the largest destroyer of creativity is getting hung up on one thing. It could be an idea, a process, or even materials. This is one reason I like Crimson's work as much as I do. He gets me thinking about new materials and methods to try using for modding. Now all I need to do is get the time to start working on mods!

Most modders who have taken the time to read some of the posts I have made over the years know I have my own views about how modding should be. At the same time I try to remember that my views are not for everyone. You seem to understand this as well.



--- Edit ---

Shouldn't this be under tips and tricks ?

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Originally Posted by JesDer

Most modders who have taken the time to read some of the posts I have made over the years know I have my own views about how modding should be. At the same time I try to remember that my views are not for everyone. You seem to understand this as well.

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I take criticism well, if the point made is clearly defended. I can admit when I'm wrong (though we all know I never am.) if you can prove how I'm wrong.

Its the other B.S. I can't stomach, and I'll call the person on it everytime. That's who I am, and tough darts if you don't like it.

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--- Edit ---

Shouldn't this be under tips and tricks ?

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Well it started as a "what not to ask about in the Forums" as reading "help me with my first mod" gets old real fast. I don't mind helping, but people need to think for themselves.

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Originally Posted by fishies

Modding a computer is like building a house. Do you see contractors going in with no blueprint and just putting up walls and windows and doors? Imagine the result. Maybe you want to live in that house, but not me.

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Modding a computer is like decorating an already completed house. Sometimes you think you want a color but once you start painting you realize wow this looked alot better on that little card in the store than on my wall. Or after you hang a photo on the wall you realize this picture my 4 year old drew would be much better in the garage than in my living room. Im not trying to be a dick about it. Everyone has their own ideas and ways they work but expressly telling someone what they should do is not right even if thats the way you work, I never said having a theme was wrong, I just said its not a neccessity it is nice to have a theme known before going it but it is not part of a "guide" thats like saying if your going to build a house you must use bricks and you cannot use stucko or stone, limiting a noobs options by telling them what to do is simply not the right thing to do. I did read your post more than once before replying, I did not skim through it.

And yes Jesder moving this to tips and tricks might be a good idea, let's see what fishies thinks

PS fishies my edit would not have been bad I would have only changed your first sentence from "your case mod needs a theme" to "you should have some plans as to what you would like before going in blindly" or something along those lines. Please don't take what I say harshly, Im blunt and to the point, thats just me.

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Originally Posted by ZeD

PS fishies my edit would not have been bad I would have only changed your first sentence from "your case mod needs a theme" to "you should have some plans as to what you would like before going in blindly" or something along those lines. Please don't take what I say harshly, Im blunt and to the point, thats just me.

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Changing anything because you want to is ignorant. Offering suggestions is the civil way to do things. I am a reasonable person, but when someone says things like that, it really strikes a nerve, and that's me.

Seeing as how both my wife and I graduated with honours for fine art, I think I know what I'm talking about here, not that you'd know that without asking, or me giving the information.

I do copy edit for government documents all day, which is a far cry frm what I went to school for, and I can tell you in any professional operation with document handling, changes aren't done because you want to change it. Most content changes go for review before any document is modified.

None of this, however, directly relates to the first post. Don't go changing my posts and I won't cra on your bed and tell you it's chocolate.

Alright how about I'll leave it alone and you take a pill and calm down. I don't however feel a need to provide you with my resume. We're not here to compete and let's drop this before it gets out of hand. Next time I'll pm you if I disagree with one of yoru suggestions.

Whatever. You need to keep in mind I was trying t help others, and if you're a mod or admin, it's a poor way to show appreciation for assistance.

If you disagree, keep it to yourself.

play nice kiddies :D

i agree with ZeD, you dont have to have a theme for a computer. if my pc doesnt have a theme and others dont like it, well it is too bad because its mine and i did it, nothing else matters. telling the newbies to have a theme might scare them away, or think about a way too complicated theme like a videogame or something. instead of saying "theme" i would rather tell them to first choose a colour or two and work around that, instead of a theme like a game, movie and things like that (they might get overwhelmed). but still, if they choose to do multicolour, and mix everything up, and the whole thing just looks like a chaos, you cant judge it subjectively and say that is crap. you dont know the meaning behind it and the work put into it. you might like it or not, but thats objective. from my understanding, you are trying to make newbies to jump right into drilling and soldering and all the complicated stuff with all those tools. Dont scare them away and say this is how it is, choose a theme, get the tools on this 2 page list and then you can start :) some of them dont even know where the cpu is :)
dont get me wrong i have nothing agains what you say, i just think that the ppl who you wrote it for might get it the wrong way thats all. you gotta be gentle for the first time you know :D

Frakk: Your colour scheme, your windows and any other modifications all equate to a theme. I think you all are reading it too literally, and not understanding the concept of a theme. Paint colours together form a theme, whether it be warm, cool, complimentary, r contrasting. Adding windows is a theme, whether they're square, circular, hexagonal, or traedidal. The theme is a project you can see the inside from the outside.

I never once said go jump in and tear holes in your computer case. Please read #4 for clarification.

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Originally Posted by fishies

If you disagree, keep it to yourself.

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I say drive your car 150mph into a wall, but if you disagree keep it to yourself, this is what I want others to do and I dont want you disagreeing with me. Are you serious? Are you seriously saying what you say is gold and no one has a right to disagree with you? If so I think everyone would agree to disagree with you. Don't you agree? I agree to disagree. Agreed?

No. Just you.

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Originally Posted by fishies

Frakk: Your colour scheme, your windows and any other modifications all equate to a theme. I think you all are reading it too literally, and not understanding the concept of a theme. Paint colours together form a theme, whether it be warm, cool, complimentary, r contrasting. Adding windows is a theme, whether they're square, circular, hexagonal, or traedidal. The theme is a project you can see the inside from the outside.

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I understand what you mean by theme, what i was trying to say is it doesnt have to be one theme. you can mix everything up that totally defy's your definition of a theme, even that would be a theme. you can call anything a theme. even an unmodded coputer has a theme. therefore you dont need a theme because anything you do can be called a theme.

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Originally Posted by Frakk

I understand what you mean by theme, what i was trying to say is it doesnt have to be one theme. you can mix everything up that totally defy's your definition of a theme, even that would be a theme. you can call anything a theme. even an unmodded coputer has a theme. therefore you dont need a theme because anything you do can be called a theme.

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That in itself is a theme. Your definition doesn't defy my definition. Actually, it strengthens it with diversity.

I don't see what the issue is if someone asks what they should do. Maybe they have no clue and its their first mod and they are nervouse or something. If they ask the question instead of worring about it just go find posts that interest you. I find some of that first post a bit eletist and most likely there will be someone that will give suggestions to that person anyways.

I know when I have done mods that I didnt have a clue what I was going to do but I have the abilty to be semi creative and think of stuff. Some people however are not as creative and need that starting boost to help them out. Sort of like a micro managing at the begining with some good ol supervision and help to get there project to blossom. I am not saying to think of all of it but give them some suggestions and such. As an other point I know many are asking for ideas just based on the fact that modding has come a long way and a lot of ideas have done and they can't think of something original in which is what they want.

I find it odd to because when people are showing their worklogs I have seen many times people giving their opinions on something should be done when it wasnt even asked for or giving poor critism which i find alot worse then this.

Anyways if you find it repetive and don't want to help thats up to you but there is many out there that are willing too.

I think that alot of the new people use the "Give me ideas" line to help break the ice in a new community. It is a conversation starter and helps ease them into the community. The way I look at it is..that this forum is open to any and all who have questions or suggestions no matter what they are. If people want to ask a hundred times a day for suggestions they should be able to.

Yes I agree with you Dante, if you have a question, just ask. But the only thing is, if they dont know what they like and what they would like to see on their pc, then theres noone who can help them. Its like when you want to go. Then I ask "Go where?", but you dont know where. So whats the point of even going? Of course they might get some ideas, but pictures and galleries are a lot more usefull than anyone can describe it, a picture speaks 1000 words. Once they know where they want to go, we can help them get there.

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Originally Posted by Frakk

Yes I agree with you Dante, if you have a question, just ask. But the only thing is, if they dont know what they like and what they would like to see on their pc, then theres noone who can help them. Its like when you want to go. Then I ask "Go where?", but you dont know where. So whats the point of even going? Of course they might get some ideas, but pictures and galleries are a lot more usefull than anyone can describe it, a picture speaks 1000 words. Once they know where they want to go, we can help them get there.

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I just want to go though :P

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Originally Posted by Frakk

Yes I agree with you Dante, if you have a question, just ask. But the only thing is, if they dont know what they like and what they would like to see on their pc, then theres noone who can help them. Its like when you want to go. Then I ask "Go where?", but you dont know where. So whats the point of even going? Of course they might get some ideas, but pictures and galleries are a lot more usefull than anyone can describe it, a picture speaks 1000 words. Once they know where they want to go, we can help them get there.

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Exactly! But with a general idea, such as the type of case (mini, desktop, mid, tower or rackmount, etc.) Half the fun of modding a case is picking it out. If someone asked me for help, and they said they want something big, I'll ship them URLs for big cases, or ask them if they saw something before that they liked.

If someone said they want to use red and green, I'd help them to decide which of the two colours will be their focus, and help them decide which parts will be painted with the secondary colour for accenting. Usually I'm good with colour.

As for someone waying they want help. What is it they want help with? Do they want me to clamp down their panel for them? Do they want me to cut the hole?

I think what it boils down to is that new users need to understand that with the net, there are many levels of communication break-down to contend with, and the best way to avoid this break-down is to be as descriptive as possible with their questions.

For example:

A user posts; "I was looking through the galleries and saw all these awesome windows (i think that's what they're called) and I want one for my computer. how do I do that?"

This question would probably illicit 3 to 10 individual responses, most with useful information. I know JesDer loves to tout his Dremel guide, with good reason. It's great.

A user posts; "I need help with my casemods."

This usually illicits the same number of responses, but most of them slam the user. I too am guilty of this. My reasoning is if the user cannot put forth the effort to explain himself properly, as in the first example, he probably won't have the attention span to finish it anyway. Why bother? Other people may have different reasons, but usually that's mine.

I think if we all (myself included, right to the front of the line) take a step back when a new user asks for help, and provide a few qualifying questions, things would improve for new users breaking into modding.

wow i like the guide and thought it was very thought out, but as for a theme i am new and have thought on this subject alot, i dont think it is completely necessary, but 9 times out of 10 your gonna wish you had one... just my 2 cents and all im gonna say on that. by the way fishie i dont think you shouldn't change the rule/suggestion about the theme cause this is your opinion on how to help others, you way so i dont think you should have to believe in what someone else does and i agree with you that if someone doesnt like you advice well then tough cookies its cool to advise and another to tell some to change their way... all in all i love the guide for now tools aren't neccessary for me cause my case is semi-premod its a x-dreamer II and i have blue as a theme, also i cant afford to get tools now i have most of them but need a dremal, but i think maybe another part you may want to specify is measure twice cut once great advise for building anything.

also yay my first post! :D

Excellent point on measuring and cutting.

lol i learn that from a recent experience with a side project trying to drill holes for a case fan well now it looks all screwy but thats ok cause im cutting a window there anyway and the case was free and an experiement.

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Originally Posted by specialsteve

by the way fishie i dont think you shouldn't change the rule/suggestion about the theme cause this is your opinion on how to help others, you way so i dont think you should have to believe in what someone else does and i agree with you that if someone doesnt like you advice well then tough cookies its cool to advise and another to tell some to change their way... :D

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specialsteve, I dont think you got the point, an opinion or advice is one thing, but fishies took it upon himself to write a guide and had the subject title nice and fancy almost sticky like trying to say this is THE guide to use. If he said this is what he would do or the way he does things I would not have said a single word. But taking it upon himself to write a guide based on his own opinions and making it seam like there is no other way to do it is wrong in my opinion. It just scares newbs away. Of the 25 or so cases I have done maybe 2 or 3 had themes to them. It would be like me writing a guide on windows and saying you must use a jigsaw, then 98% of modders who don't own one will think they cannot do a window mod. Do ya get what Im saying? I did thank him for his thoughts and opinions on the subject however, I think he mistook my reasoning for disagreeing and got a little bent out of shape.

my xaser case has no theme at all. I just modded stuff in it and switched out stufff. on that I agree with zed that you don't always have a theme.

Sometimes though my cases do have themes. Like the silent cat project. not many people actually know what the theme is. It started based on teh silent cat fan and then i expanded from there and I have seen many people telling me things dont go with my theme when i never even mentioned what my theme was.

im stil waiting for someone to tell me the correct answer to what the theme was for the silent cat.


muhaahhaaahahahh

:)

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Originally Posted by Whisp

im stil waiting for someone to tell me the correct answer to what the theme was for the silent cat.

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Umm ... the theme is Man Against Nature : Silencing the roaring chaos of mother earth with umm .. NOS ... Hmm .. am I close ?

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Originally Posted by ZeD

specialsteve, I dont think you got the point, an opinion or advice is one thing, but fishies took it upon himself to write a guide and had the subject title nice and fancy almost sticky like trying to say this is THE guide to use. If he said this is what he would do or the way he does things I would not have said a single word. But taking it upon himself to write a guide based on his own opinions and making it seam like there is no other way to do it is wrong in my opinion. It just scares newbs away. Of the 25 or so cases I have done maybe 2 or 3 had themes to them. It would be like me writing a guide on windows and saying you must use a jigsaw, then 98% of modders who don't own one will think they cannot do a window mod. Do ya get what Im saying? I did thank him for his thoughts and opinions on the subject however, I think he mistook my reasoning for disagreeing and got a little bent out of shape.

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Zed, I only got ent out of shape because your ignborant post dictating that you are the end all and be all of the moddong forums, by telling me you're arbitrarily editing my work. I thought you were going to drop this, but as we can all see, you're flame trolling.

If you wanted to thank me for the effort, you should have left it at that.

As so far, I have yet to see anyone else try to write a newbie guide here. I think you;re just jealous because I thought of it first.

So why not just be a good guy and drop it? Or be a dick and keep this up. The choice is yours at this stage of the game.

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Originally Posted by JesDer

Umm ... the theme is Man Against Nature : Silencing the roaring chaos of mother earth with umm .. NOS ... Hmm .. am I close ?

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lol

no but interesting take on it :)

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Originally Posted by fishies

Zed, I only got ent out of shape because your ignborant post dictating that you are the end all and be all of the moddong forums, by telling me you're arbitrarily editing my work. I thought you were going to drop this, but as we can all see, you're flame trolling.

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Fishies Im trying to be as polite as I can, but your making it difficult by acting childish coming back to every nice thing I say with rude comments.

When did I make it seam that I wanted or perceived myself to be the end all and be all of the modding forums? If anyone is acting like they are the end all be all of the forums its you dictating your opinions as rules others should be going by.

Flame trolling? Im replying to posts directed solely at me. I dropped this quite a few posts ago but you wanted to keep it up.

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As so far, I have yet to see anyone else try to write a newbie guide here. I think you;re just jealous because I thought of it first.

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That must be it.

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So why not just be a good guy and drop it? Or be a dick and keep this up. The choice is yours at this stage of the game.

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I tried, you kept coming back at me with bull**** childish remarks and btw Im only a dick to assholes.

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Originally Posted by ZeD

Fishies Im trying to be as polite as I can, but your making it difficult by acting childish coming back to every nice thing I say with rude comments.

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I've not been rude. I call it how I see it. If my posts make you angry and want to be rude, that's an issue you need to resolve in counselling, and not on the forums.

How have I been childish? You post something to spur a resonse. I fell for it. That's my problem. My fundamental problem with you and this whole issue is your desire for censorship. You disagree with something I wrote? That's great. Tell us why. You want to just change it to suit you, that's not great.

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When did I make it seam that I wanted or perceived myself to be the end all and be all of the modding forums? If anyone is acting like they are the end all be all of the forums its you dictating your opinions as rules others should be going by.

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The moment you imposed your authority over my writing this GUIDE by informing to me and the rest of the forum you were going to change it.

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I tried, you kept coming back at me with bull**** childish remarks and btw Im only a dick to assholes.

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Again, I must ask. How is it that I've been childish? You didn't try anything. The following quote is evident of this.

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but fishies took it upon himself to write a guide and had the subject title nice and fancy almost sticky like trying to say this is THE guide to use. If he said this is what he would do or the way he does things I would not have said a single word. But taking it upon himself to write a guide based on his own opinions and making it seam like there is no other way to do it is wrong in my opinion.

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I said it before, it's a guide, and if you take a personal afront to it, you have some deep-seeded issues of control. If you can read the thread, you will find others have criticized it. I read the criticism and say to myself, 'that pesron has a good point,' or 'i disagree with that,' or whatever.

You criticised with the intention of imposing your own edits to something you didn't write. This is a public forum, not Zed's editting school.

Paul offered to make me a mod last week, and I told him to hold that thought. If Mod's are supposed to act like this, I think I'll keep my regular user status. Moderators should be there to raise up their users, not slam them down. Moderators are meant to help, not dictate, and not force their views upon others. I think in my short time here, I've helped a few people. I know I've made people think. Ask yourself Zed, "What have you done for the users?" You've done nothing for me.

Both of you calm down .. if that isn't possible, please take it to PMs ..

And can we get this thread cleaned up? None of this back and forth needs to be in a guide thread.


If you have a problem with that, feel free to PM me.

c'mon ZeD, we all know you are better then that. you 2 are acting like 3 year olds.

I agree completely with you two,m JesDer and MrSlacker. These two really should learn to take a bit of criticism, I mean, imagine if fishies became a mod and they had had this flame war (that is what it is really, you can't call this a conversation). I mean, that would be great example of how two moderators behaved. ZeD of all people, being a Mod, should learn to take a bit of flak for what he says. I have too say though (and I am sure there will be a lot of people who will disagree with me) that it seems that ZeD is always the Mod who seems to get into arguments with users (just my own observations). Fishies, you have also got to realise that sometimes it is a good idea to alter your posts. I know you will probably say something like "prove that I am wrong" but you just need to realise that other people have other points of view. Personally loved the guide (although I did not entirely agree with it) but not everyone does
In closing, I would like to ask for this whole flame fest to be moved, so that it cannot be acessed from the "rules of the road" (not deleted because I am sure fishies would complain about things being edited) as this is one of the first things that a newcomer to the forums is likely to see and it does not really give off a good image of the forums.

Holy ****...I didnt even finish reading. Just stop talking about who is right and wrong. We all have different ways of doing things. Thats a fact of life. Its very childish of you to keep babbling on about who agrees with who. Just let it lay. Im not saying stop giving your ideas, I am just saying don't say someones idea is wrong just because you think it is. Now...please no one post after this. Just let people who are looking for a start read his post. Zed, if you disagree make another topic with your way of doing it. People can read and compare and see which road they want to go down.

No need for language, actually wait a minute, there is with these two. But they seem to have stopped now

Yes I felt I no longer needed (nor wanted) to respond to anymore bickering. So I think we're both done now.

Please let's get back on the topic at hand.

i think we should have a how to contest in the future... of topic? sry if so but this sparked the idea in my head