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Thread: Gettin greasy ...

  1. #1
    Anodized. Again. Konrad's Avatar
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    Default Gettin greasy ...

    Thermal grease, thermal paste, thermal gel, heat sink goop, heat transfer compound, thermal interface material - whatever you prefer to call it, the names and substances differ but the function and purpose is always the same.

    I suspect that most people here at TBCS are well aware of the importance of cooling their PCs and the critical role thermal grease plays.

    An introductory summary of thermal grease basics:

    Thermal grease (by any name) is placed between very hot components and a heatsink; its purpose is to maximize efficient heat transfer between the part and the heatsink. Without it, even the mightiest heat sink will become inefficient (the gap would be filled with air, which is a terrible thermal conductor), leading to the part overheating and failing.

    Failure on PC parts failure is often expensive, quick, dramatic, catastrophic, and permanent. A lot of electrical power flows through a lot of very dense circuitry and generates a lot of waste heat, if this heat isn't removed from chip's tiny surface area, it will zorch in seconds - literally exploding into a little blast crater filled with fused silicon slag. This explosion can sometimes blast a hole through the socket and smoke the entire motherboard.

    Don't believe the hype? Check some videos here, here, and here. Note that Intel or AMD, ATI or nVidia, no brand is immune and no manufacturer should be trusted - all complex large chips can and do get this hot (CPUs, GPUs, and "Northbridge" MCHs in particular). Overclocking will run them even hotter.

    Almost every cooling system that exists involves some kind of heatsink or mechanism that takes the heat from one place and gets rid of it somewhere else. Virtually every one of these requires direct contact between the heatsink and the hot part and thus uses some form of thermal interface material.

    Now, to the point ...

    As I understand it, most of thermal grease products use some kind of sticky, greasy binder in which microscopic particles of some other substance (the efficient thermal conductor) are suspended. Countless formulations exist.

    The binder is usually some kind of silicon gel, but manufacturers often cut corners by diluting with petroleums, plastics, and mineral oils. (This practice usually reduces final efficiency a little while making the manufacturing process a lot easier and cheaper. The consumer might cry foul, but remember, the alternative is paying substantially more and getting fewer choices on products that aren't significantly better.)

    The suspended thermal conductor is typically
    - ceramic oxide (cheapest and by far the most common)
    - metallic oxide (higher cost and efficiency; typically aluminum, copper, or silver, sometimes gold)
    - carbon (extreme cost and efficiency; can be graphite, diamond, fibers or filaments)

    Wikipedia's Thermal Paste article generally agrees with what I've learned, but it also includes mention of liquid metals (gallium, mercury, cadmium etc) while I personally consider them to be more of an exotic category of their own; they tend to be so expensive and toxic that I doubt many consumers will ever see one.

    The chemistry of the thermal paste (especially the type and concentration of the main ingredient) fundamentally determines how well it works. Brand doesn't matter, price doesn't matter.

    Everyone already knows (or should know!) that thermal grease is absolutely required and any kind of thermal grease is infinitely better than none at all. To put it into perspective, even crappy cheap alumina-based thermal grease will transfer over 8000 times more heat than the same volume of air.

    Avid overclockers and gamers automatically recognize certain premium brands (like Arctic Silver 5). Most authorities agree that silver-based pastes are superior, though the measured temp improvements are very small (and sometimes even disputable, since the measured ranges often fall with the error margin built into most PC temp monitoring systems). Although I agree that Arctic Silver is a fine product, I feel that brand isn't important and any silver-based thermal paste should perform nearly identically. Of course, not all brands are created equal, so (like the linky says) buyer beware.

    Most (if not all) OEMs and vendors ship their products with cheap bulk-discount thermal grease; it's generally good enough to keep the computer or computer part running *at rated specifications* until the return-period or warranty expires. After that, it's the consumer's problem, not the vendor's. I routinely clean this cheap junk off and apply a better (silver-based) grease whenever I obtain a new part, just to be sure. As a bonus, I can verify the actual part numbers on the exposed chip and install a thermal probe while I'm at it. Part numbers never lie (well, it's easier to determine if they're lying, while it's impossible to get the real truth from clever software.)

  2. #2
    Anodized. Again. Konrad's Avatar
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    Default Re: Gettin greasy ...

    Finally, my questions.

    As informative/educational as all the above may be, it's all just "background" for my questions ...

    Browsing around, I couldn't find many "carbon-based" thermal paste products. But I found Panasonic Pyrolitic Graphite, after bumping into a little chat between a pair of EE guys (here) where one says
    Quote Originally Posted by Larry Johnson
    Bare part 0.70 C/W
    Thermal Grease 0.33 C/W
    Pyrolitic Graphite 0.04 C/W
    0.04 C/W sure caught my attention, since the "bare part" and "thermal grease" values are remarkably similar to what I'd expect on a CPU. Note that (if my math is correct) Arctic Silver 5 thermal grease would rate about 0.31 C/W.

    My question ... if I were to grind this pyrolitic graphite stuff into fine, fine, fine powder and mix it into a silicone (or vaseline, or whatever) gel base ... would it work? No doubt I wouldn't get 0.04 C/W, but really anything under 0.31 C/W would be an improvement, no?

    Another interesting idea ... what about using silver solder pastes as a thermal interface? Obviously that's not their intended application, but hey, they are available in a variety of % contents and such which are much more tightly regulated than thermal paste products. They're obviously fully conductive. They might take a lot longer to "cook off" before requiring re-application. As a bonus, they tend to be significantly cheaper, since a little $25 jar of the stuff would be good for hundreds and hundreds of thermal applications (maybe less if you use it for soldering).

    Maybe some silver solder paste, powdered graphite, and a dash of WD-40 mixed together with a mortar and pestle?

    Any thoughts?

  3. #3
    Resident 100HP water-cannon operator SXRguyinMA's Avatar
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    Default Re: Gettin greasy ...

    the first vid is fake, and the second two link to the same vid lol. other than that nice article

  4. #4
    Will YOU be ready when the zombies rise? x88x's Avatar
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    Default Re: Gettin greasy ...

    The exploding CPU video is a fake. The Tom's Hardware video is an accurate depiction of what will happen when a CPU overheats. The reason the AMD CPUs got so much hotter is because they were not made with integrated heatspreader.

    As for your question, no matter what material you use, one of the key things to keep in mind is that you need to make sure that it will never leave the area directly between the heatspreader and heatsink. This would be my concern if a material (like silver solder) with a low melting point were used. If such a material were to leak onto your MBB, Bad Things(TM) will happen. The reason why silicon grease is used as a medium is not only to ease application of the material, but also to keep it in place during use. If you are going to make your own paste, I would use powdered diamond instead of graphite. It's really not very expensive.

    I think Kayin has done some work in this area; he'll probably be around at some point.
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  5. #5
    If you can't hack it, you don't own it! Oneslowz28's Avatar
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    Default Re: Gettin greasy ...

    Arctic Silver 5 is about the best TIM readily available and cheap. (you can buy it from newegg or Radio Shack for about $6) It takes 200 hours to fully cure, but you will see awesome results from it right from the start. But its not just about the TIM you use, you also have to make sure both surfaces are flat, smooth as possible, and very very clean. Here at TBCS we use Arctic Silver Arcticlean to clean both the CPU and the heatsink before we do any testing.

    There are commercially available diamond based TIMs but they have a very low Diamond to medium ratio. Kayin and myself have discusses making some home made diamond powder based TIM. If you look at other high end TIMs the particle size of the base component is very uniform. There will be a mix of specific sized particles as to remove as much of the gap between particles as possible. One of the commercial products we looked at used 3 different sizes. IIRC it was something like 40% 20micron, 10% 10 micron and 50% 5 micron, and it used a silicone dioxide based medium to hold it all together.

    We found a few people who had made it at home before, who were seeing awesome temps, but not near the potential diamond based TIM has. I did some research and found that the key factor in making your own TIM is to place your finished product in a vacuum chamber for X hours. This will remove all the trapped air in your TIM. This is where things got complicated for us. I have a vacuum pump capable of about 90kPa which was enough for what we want to do. The hard part has been finding a suitable cheap vacuum chamber. I tried making one out of iron pipe, pipe dope and end caps. I was only able to take it down to about 45kPa. There was still air leaking in from somewhere. So until I can find the time and $$ to build a proper vacuum chamber the project is on hold.

  6. #6
    Will YOU be ready when the zombies rise? x88x's Avatar
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    Default Re: Gettin greasy ...

    Quote Originally Posted by Oneslowz28 View Post
    If you look at other high end TIMs the particle size of the base component is very uniform. There will be a mix of specific sized particles as to remove as much of the gap between particles as possible. One of the commercial products we looked at used 3 different sizes. IIRC it was something like 40% 20micron, 10% 10 micron and 50% 5 micron, and it used a silicone dioxide based medium to hold it all together.
    Wouldn't it be better to have uniform, very small particles? For example, the stuff I linked is 1/4 micron, so the gap would be smaller with that than any mix of 20/10/5/etc micron stuff, right? Or is it that the larger particles transmit heat better since a larger portion of the TIM is the base component?
    That we enjoy great advantages from the inventions of others, we should be glad of an opportunity to serve others by any invention of ours, and this we should do freely and generously.
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  7. #7
    Retrosmith Mach's Avatar
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    Default Re: Gettin greasy ...

    Quote Originally Posted by Oneslowz28 View Post
    The hard part has been finding a suitable cheap vacuum chamber. I tried making one out of iron pipe, pipe dope and end caps. I was only able to take it down to about 45kPa. There was still air leaking in from somewhere. So until I can find the time and $$ to build a proper vacuum chamber the project is on hold.
    Hmm, every considered using an investing table? I've got the domes around here somewhere. They're good for 27-29" of mercury.

    http://www.ishor.com/VacuumInvestMach.php

    Quote Originally Posted by x88x View Post
    Wouldn't it be better to have uniform, very small particles? For example, the stuff I linked is 1/4 micron, so the gap would be smaller with that than any mix of 20/10/5/etc micron stuff, right? Or is it that the larger particles transmit heat better since a larger portion of the TIM is the base component?
    Heh, the first time my job knowledge ever applied to modding. Picture a box of marbles that are all the same size. Assume that each layer is packed as efficiently as possible on the layer below it. That's called rhombic packing or close packing. Now pour water in the box. The volume of water is equal to 27% (theoretically) of the total cube but for real life applications like TIM the empty space volume is at best 36% (likely more). That means that over 1/3 of the TIM that you spread is binder if the particle size is uniform.

    If you do the experiment over but this time use alternating layers of small and large marbles, you could theoretically get the water volume down to 14% with end to end or cubic packing. In real life, you'll never get to 14% but you get the idea.

    The particles in the TIM transmit the heat so the more particle volume that you have in a layer the better heat transfer. The paste is just the binder for the particles and does not transfer heat that well. Mixing particle size means more particle volume in the layer between the heat spreader and cpu.

  8. #8
    Mentally Underclocked mDust's Avatar
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    Default Re: Gettin greasy ...

    Quote Originally Posted by x88x View Post
    Wouldn't it be better to have uniform, very small particles? For example, the stuff I linked is 1/4 micron, so the gap would be smaller with that than any mix of 20/10/5/etc micron stuff, right? Or is it that the larger particles transmit heat better since a larger portion of the TIM is the base component?
    Perhaps having the larger particles reduces the overall thermal resistance by reducing the number of gaps of filler material? So instead of heat energy transferring to a small conductive particle, through some base material, to a small conductive particle, through more base material, to a small conductive particle, etc...it would transfer from a small particle, through some base material, to a large conductive particle, through some base material, to another large conductive particle...
    The smaller particles would still be needed to fill the empty 'corners'.

    I think we need a perfectly flat (down to molecule) diamond plate with a single drop of of liquid on each side of the plate. The liquid could be anything that is highly thermal conductive and contains a high-concentration of diamond molecules or particles in solution. Through capillary-action, the diamond solution fills the nooks and crannies in the HS and IHS and then evaporates, thus providing a mostly diamond heat-super-highway. Though, the price of the HS would be many times that of any computer you could possibly build at home.
    I'll procrastinate tomorrow.

  9. #9
    One Eye, Sixteen Cores. Kayin's Avatar
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    Default Re: Gettin greasy ...

    Let's just say guys, I have my eyes on this.

    Good research Konrad, and pyrolytic graphite is an EXCELLENT material. It's easier to work with than diamond, cheaper, but at the same time it's still a few ticks off the capability as well. It's all tradeoffs.

    What you guys need to do is get something like what AS5 is suspended in WITHOUT the silver. While it will settle in matrix, you'll get uneven conduction. Also, look for something that won't be easily pumped out by hydraulic pressure (that set of fractal lines when you remove a heatsink? it's working its way out...)

    I'll read up some more on that graphite. Now if you can find me graphene, I'll dethrone diamond.

    BTW, to get teh pyrolytic craphite to work, use silicone oil. A heavier weight, it'll create a non-Newtonian fluid and it should be easier to work with as well.
    Project:Mithril, sponsored by Petra's Tech Shop and Sidewinder Computers-MOTM Nominee October '08




  10. #10
    Anodized. Again. Konrad's Avatar
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    Default Re: Gettin greasy ...

    Fake vids and broken links. Damn, I shoulda known better than to trust Youtube.

    I'll admit the video with the Russian guys blasting their chips apart did seem a little bit staged, but it appeared sufficiently genuine to pass my casual scrutiny. I've little doubt that the boiling water and Tom's hardware vids are authentic. Fake or no, I think my point about CPUs being killed by thermal overstress is still valid, if perhaps not as exciting.

    Vacuum chambers, molecular geometries, capillary matrices ... obviously I'm just a new kid on the block when it comes to engineering a better sludge. You've obviously advanced past my medieval mortar & pestle conceptions. If any of you guys manage to develop a superior TIM then I'll be one of your first customers.

    I didn't seriously expect the solder paste idea to work, at least not without a hitch - just sort of tossing the idea out there. I wonder if it would convert into a dry solid after a few weeks of "burn in", so maybe I'll keep playing with the idea a bit. I do agree that having it leak out into the mobo socket would be a Very Bad Thing.

    Use silicon oil to get the pyrolitic graphite to work? An interface on the interface? Wouldn't that still introduce a weak link in the chain that can be improved upon?

    [Edit]

    Another new (and probably bad) idea: what about a magnetically clamped heatink? Iron is an inferior thermal conductor, true, but some of the AlNiCo alloys would make fairly decent heatsink materials. Admittedly the CPU block is probably copper faced, but it can always be chemically plated with something else. (Powered electroplating isn't strictly required for most metals, it just makes the reaction faster.) I'll admit I have reservations about how stable n-billion circuit gates would be when in immediate proximity of an intense magnetic field. Again, just throwing the idea out there.
    My mind says Technic, but my body says Duplo.

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