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Thread: St. Matthew Island

  1. #21
    Custom Title Honors Snowman's Avatar
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    Default Re: St. Matthew Island

    Quote Originally Posted by Lothair View Post
    Do you have a source of information on that? I always thought we tested everything? Thanks!

    Also, keep it civilized everyone. No need to be rude. Whether you believe someone is misinformed or not is no reason or cause to be. I don't want to have to play "flame wars" song from College Humor. :p
    The genetically modified seed over in India from best I can tell has been chalked up to oops we messed up. Means they didn't test it in my eyes, otherwise they would have known of the forthcoming catastrophic failure.
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  2. #22
    Overclocked Lothair's Avatar
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    Default Re: St. Matthew Island

    Quote Originally Posted by Snowman View Post
    The genetically modified seed over in India from best I can tell has been chalked up to oops we messed up. Means they didn't test it in my eyes, otherwise they would have known of the forthcoming catastrophic failure.
    I presume you read this somewhere? Do you have the source or can yo find it? Anything else?

  3. #23
    Custom Title Honors Snowman's Avatar
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    Default Re: St. Matthew Island

    Quote Originally Posted by Lothair View Post
    I presume you read this somewhere? Do you have the source or can yo find it? Anything else?
    Yeah I am looking now, i read it on my old phone through an rss aggregator I am looking for the source now.
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  4. #24
    AARGH dr.walrus's Avatar
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    Default Re: St. Matthew Island

    Quote Originally Posted by Snowman View Post
    you have absolutely no idea what genetically engineering crops could turn into and neither do I.
    Transplating individual genes can not cause crops to mutate out of control. What gives you this idea? That is not how genetics work.

    Smoking cigarettes mutates your genes. When I light up a Marlboro red, do I worry that my children will grow fangs? I increase my risk of cancer, yes, but that affects me. Not my descendents. Genetic engineering targets specific genes - you don't have any understanding of the science here and it is painfully obvious.

    What you are saying sounds like cheap, bad science fiction. Nothing else.

  5. #25
    Custom Title Honors Snowman's Avatar
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    Default Re: St. Matthew Island

    Quote Originally Posted by dr.walrus View Post
    Transplating individual genes can not cause crops to mutate out of control. What gives you this idea? That is not how genetics work.

    Smoking cigarettes mutates your genes. When I light up a Marlboro red, do I worry that my children will grow fangs? I increase my risk of cancer, yes, but that affects me. Not my descendents. Genetic engineering targets specific genes - you don't have any understanding of the science here and it is painfully obvious.

    What you are saying sounds like cheap, bad science fiction. Nothing else.
    Fine since you are such an expert in the field explain to me why the genetically modified fish we bought to put in our pond were made specifically to grow faster, live longer and be completely sterile; however have proliferated beyond even normal standards for that breed of fish. If it is such a controlled science that we pay so dearly for why doesn't it always work as expected?

    I never once claimed to be a genetics expert, I never claimed any of what I said to be fact. I expanded the horizons of my examples just as you have to make a point. Crossing two plants genes to create seed, and then the possibility of the daughter plant of that genetically modified seed having more traits over the other is simple secondary school FACT. So even though you started with plant a and that is all you ever wanted it may carry unwanted characteristics of plant b because the genes are there in the plant.
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  6. #26
    Overclocked Lothair's Avatar
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    Default Re: St. Matthew Island

    Quote Originally Posted by dr.walrus View Post
    Transplating individual genes can not cause crops to mutate out of control. What gives you this idea? That is not how genetics work.

    Smoking cigarettes mutates your genes. When I light up a Marlboro red, do I worry that my children will grow fangs? I increase my risk of cancer, yes, but that affects me. Not my descendents. Genetic engineering targets specific genes - you don't have any understanding of the science here and it is painfully obvious.

    What you are saying sounds like cheap, bad science fiction. Nothing else.
    I understand your point, but technically if you were to smoke around others, it affects them even more than it does you. :p (still understood your point though, just saying lol)

    However, it's also true that crops due mutate, both naturally and artificially. Now... mutation isn't a bad word in this case. You can also call it evolution. That's all it is, is genetic mutations over time. Humans would still be primitive life forms without mutations. So, yes, it happens, but no, not in an extreme sense that would cause worry (cause of worry for food is usually due to something else, a third party, a chemical or something) and not in a sense that's bad. We're just artificially creating what already happens in nature, just much faster. Sometime we fail, though, and those testings should not leave the laboratory, and they usually don't (not that they're dangerous or anything, they just didn't work for what we wanted to do with them, like making a crop that grows better during a certain season like some other crops in the world do). With food, anyways.

    Did you guys know that oranges have thicker skins now than the original oranges that were brought to most modernized countries? The reason why we modified the oranges is because the skins being too thin let insects in, and sometimes you'd get a nasty ball of maggots instead of nummy orange slices! lol Ew.

  7. #27
    Custom Title Honors Snowman's Avatar
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    Default Re: St. Matthew Island

    Haven't found the story I am looking for yet but here is one from the same company that is responsible for the India failure
    80% peak crop failure

    although they had been using gm crops for years these had been modified to increase yield and resistance to weed killer.
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  8. #28
    AARGH dr.walrus's Avatar
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    Default Re: St. Matthew Island

    Quote Originally Posted by Snowman View Post
    Fine since you are such an expert in the field explain to me why the genetically modified fish we bought to put in our pond were made specifically to grow faster, live longer and be completely sterile; however have proliferated beyond even normal standards for that breed of fish. If it is such a controlled science that we pay so dearly for why doesn't it work?
    So a single anecdotal example disproves a science that is rapidly becoming a mature field? This couldn't happen with selective breeding?

    Quote Originally Posted by Snowman View Post
    Crossing two plants genes to create seed, and then the possibility of the daughter plant of that genetically modified seed having more traits over the other is simple secondary school FACT.
    Of course! But this happens with selective breeding, and moreover any normal breeding. And this isn't what you originally said at all:

    Quote Originally Posted by Snowman View Post
    In one generation it mutates to more closely resemble the peanut plant and has enough of the right chemical make up that every person across the planet with a peanut allergy keeled over dead while eating sweet corn.
    There are risks with introducing new crops anywhere, just like your fish. Especially if they don't do what they're supposed to do. This is emphasised when you are manipulating genes. Just like with selective breeding.

    However, the idea that when something is out of the lab, it can suddenly mutate into 'something else' just like that is just rubbish.

  9. #29
    AARGH dr.walrus's Avatar
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    Default Re: St. Matthew Island

    Quote Originally Posted by Snowman View Post
    Haven't found the story I am looking for yet but here is one from the same company that is responsible for the India failure
    80% peak crop failure

    although they had been using gm crops for years these had been modified to increase yield and resistance to weed killer.
    Where is the evidence that it's genetic? Um yeah I'll wait.

    Oh yeah and:

    http://www.independent.co.uk/news/wo...a-1669018.html
    http://www.gmwatch.eu/index.php?opti...ticle&id=12221
    http://unhypnotize.com/health-news/3...-using-gm.html

    Having actually read these articles, the suicides were caused by crop failure after the farmers invested vast amounts of money in unethically sold GM crops. Genetic modification does not guarantee against crop failuire when there is a severe drought! Nor does it mean these crops will not be abused financially.

    That is why the anti-GM lobby is so dangerous -without government investment, private companies rise to meet the need, overseas, and horribly exploit desperate people even more.

  10. #30
    Will YOU be ready when the zombies rise? x88x's Avatar
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    Default Re: St. Matthew Island

    Quote Originally Posted by Snowman View Post
    show me the long term effects of cloning beef and genetically engineering crops.
    [..]
    There are no long term studies because nobody has thought about the long term.
    More than that, there are no long term studies because the technology hasn't been in use for long term (ie, decades). IIRC, genetically modified crops only really started getting widespread adoption in the mid-to-late '90's...so even if someone started a study into the long-term affects right away, we still wouldn't know anything for sure. It's like global warming; yes, we can take the data we have and make estimates and calculations, but we don't really know anything for sure because we're dealing with just a teensy, tiny, portion of the relevant data.

    Quote Originally Posted by Snowman View Post
    I will give you one number stemming from the genetic crops 125,000. Number of suicides attributed to the crop failure from GM seeds.
    I'm going to take a leap here and say those suicides would have happened if those crops had failed regardless of whether they had been modified or not.

    Unfortunately, we as a country do have quite a long track record of companies pushing out untested products in second/third-world countries. Some of the first female birth control pills were tested in (iirc) Puerto Rico, and ended up permanently sterilizing a large percentage of the participants. Does that mean every company should have stopped all work on all chemical birth control? Foxconn has a pretty bad record of employee suicides; does that mean we should stop any and all electronics manufacture? No. The poor decisions of one company should not color the reputation of an entire industry. And complaining that the FDA didn't stop them is nonsense; US regulatory bodies have little to no control over what a multinational company does in another country.

    Quote Originally Posted by Snowman View Post
    Fine since you are such an expert in the field explain to me why the genetically modified fish we bought to put in our pond were made specifically to grow faster, live longer and be completely sterile; however have proliferated beyond even normal standards for that breed of fish.
    It means the company screwed up and lost millions by customers not having to buy more fish when these die.

    I am by no means an expert on genetic engineering; at best I'm an interested bystander. That being said, I do know that animal genomes are a heck of a lot more complicated than plant genomes, and I know that it's a lot easier to screw up a change in a complicated system than a comparatively simple one. And just like any technology, there are growing pains. There are mistakes; big and small. When the Space Shuttle Challenger broke up during launch, killing everyone aboard, should we have shut down NASA and stopped all future space research and exploration? No. What matters the most is not that those mistakes happen; that is a given. What matters most is how those mistakes and the problems they create are handled by those responsible; both after they happen, and before, in preventative measures. This is why we have product recalls. This is why we have warranties. No company is perfect; no technology is perfect, least of all when it is still in its infancy. No matter what we do, there will always be times when something happens not exactly as we planned it. This should be used not as a reason to stop all work in that area but as an incentive to improve our methods, our techniques, our technologies, and finally the end product or service that we create.
    That we enjoy great advantages from the inventions of others, we should be glad of an opportunity to serve others by any invention of ours, and this we should do freely and generously.
    --Benjamin Franklin
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