Page 4 of 7 FirstFirst 1234567 LastLast
Results 31 to 40 of 63

Thread: "Keys open doors" ?

  1. #31
    Mentally Underclocked mDust's Avatar
    Join Date
    Aug 2009
    Location
    Michigan
    Posts
    1,639

    Default Re: "Keys open doors" ?

    Quote Originally Posted by dr.walrus View Post
    Like crowbar manufacturers? Bong shops?
    Touché with the crowbar manufacturer. But bong shops don't defeat security nor facilitate any crime. Also, neither affects millions of people.
    I'll procrastinate tomorrow.

  2. #32
    AARGH dr.walrus's Avatar
    Join Date
    Mar 2008
    Location
    Ho Chi Minh City
    Posts
    993

    Default Re: "Keys open doors" ?

    I'm talking about the facilitation of crime in general; handing out information that gives people access to features they already own is hardly on a par with giving a gun to a murderer, or unlocking a house so it can be robbed; it's just providing something that could potentially used for an illegal act.

    If bump keys aren't illegal, how is this? http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lock_bumping

  3. #33
    Mentally Underclocked mDust's Avatar
    Join Date
    Aug 2009
    Location
    Michigan
    Posts
    1,639

    Default Re: "Keys open doors" ?

    Quote Originally Posted by dr.walrus View Post
    I'm talking about the facilitation of crime in general; handing out information that gives people access to features they already own is hardly on a par with giving a gun to a murderer, or unlocking a house so it can be robbed; it's just providing something that could potentially used for an illegal act.
    The murder and burglary were extreme examples of unacceptable (hopefully) actions in civilized society. No other similarities were intended as they are highly contrasting with geohots scenario. That said, unlocking a house so it can be robbed is a precise analogy for what he did.
    Quote Originally Posted by dr.walrus View Post
    If bump keys aren't illegal, how is this? http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lock_bumping
    Bump keys are illegal in many states here (as is possessing other burglary tools e.g. lock picks, slim jims for cars, etc...most professionals still use the tools anyway despite not being exempted from the law), and probably would be illegal in all states and many more countries if they were brought to the attention of lawmakers. Laws don't simply pop into existence. At some point there needs to be legislation or a court case concerning the matter...one that doesn't settle out of court even!
    I'll procrastinate tomorrow.

  4. #34
    AARGH dr.walrus's Avatar
    Join Date
    Mar 2008
    Location
    Ho Chi Minh City
    Posts
    993

    Default Re: "Keys open doors" ?

    Quote Originally Posted by mDust View Post
    The murder and burglary were extreme examples of unacceptable (hopefully) actions in civilized society. No other similarities were intended as they are highly contrasting with geohots scenario. That said, unlocking a house so it can be robbed is a precise analogy for what he did.
    Gotta really disagree about that. A house is a single 'object'. Geohot doesn't crack your PS3, he gave instructions how. If he's not directly taking action, that's covered under his constitutional rights, surely?
    Quote Originally Posted by mDust View Post
    Bump keys are illegal in many states here (as is possessing other burglary tools e.g. lock picks, slim jims for cars, etc...most professionals still use the tools anyway despite not being exempted from the law), and probably would be illegal in all states and many more countries if they were brought to the attention of lawmakers. Laws don't simply pop into existence. At some point there needs to be legislation or a court case concerning the matter...one that doesn't settle out of court even!
    While I agree with you on that, court cases are considered the 'last option' for damages. For example, if you refuse a settlement and then the court awards smaller damages than the settlement option, you can find yourself paying court fees/the other side's legal costs.

  5. #35
    AARGH dr.walrus's Avatar
    Join Date
    Mar 2008
    Location
    Ho Chi Minh City
    Posts
    993

    Default Re: "Keys open doors" ?

    Oh and I did the research, in the vast majority of the USA, lock picks are legal - however, carrying them in the public will likely see you arrested for 'going equipped'. It's all about context - I'd be arrested for carrying my kitchen knives in public, but it's legal for me to buy, sell and own them.

  6. #36
    Mentally Underclocked mDust's Avatar
    Join Date
    Aug 2009
    Location
    Michigan
    Posts
    1,639

    Default Re: "Keys open doors" ?

    Quote Originally Posted by dr.walrus View Post
    Gotta really disagree about that. A house is a single 'object'. Geohot doesn't crack your PS3, he gave instructions how. If he's not directly taking action, that's covered under his constitutional rights, surely?

    While I agree with you on that, court cases are considered the 'last option' for damages. For example, if you refuse a settlement and then the court awards smaller damages than the settlement option, you can find yourself paying court fees/the other side's legal costs.
    OK, not a precise analogy. Each PS3 console is part of a larger network though. That network would be the house. Prior to geohots hack, that network was locked up tight. He unlocked the door for otherOS, custom firmware, etc. and, in addition, abuse by malicious idiots who never otherwise would have been able to do their malicious-idiot-things. Unfortunately, but not surprisingly, they struck hard enough to cause the PSN to be taken down for an extended period of time. Like I said before, he doesn't have to participate in the crime itself in any way to be an accessory. All he has to do is make available the opportunity for criminal activity...which, unarguably, he did. The malicious idiots are the principal, geohot is an accessory.
    There are a lot of gray areas in the coverage of freedom of speech and press here. Divulging proprietary information is one of those gray areas and usually is not covered by either.
    And yes, a court case should be the last course of action if only for the sake of the court systems. They are always expensive for both sides, and more often than not, the winner is whoever has the deeper pockets. But if everyone keeps settling out of court then no precedent is ever established and people keep squabbling over the same issues again and again and again. Sometimes you just have to take one for the team to settle it once and for all.
    I'll procrastinate tomorrow.

  7. #37
    AARGH dr.walrus's Avatar
    Join Date
    Mar 2008
    Location
    Ho Chi Minh City
    Posts
    993

    Default Re: "Keys open doors" ?

    Quote Originally Posted by mDust View Post
    OK, not a precise analogy. Each PS3 console is part of a larger network though. That network would be the house. Prior to geohots hack, that network was locked up tight. He unlocked the door for otherOS, custom firmware, etc. and, in addition, abuse by malicious idiots who never otherwise would have been able to do their malicious-idiot-things. Unfortunately, but not surprisingly, they struck hard enough to cause the PSN to be taken down for an extended period of time. Like I said before, he doesn't have to participate in the crime itself in any way to be an accessory. All he has to do is make available the opportunity for criminal activity...which, unarguably, he did. The malicious idiots are the principal, geohot is an accessory.
    Again, the crowbar analogy holds. The 'generalised accessory' falls flat when you look at publishing. A good example of this can be found in the birth of legal porn in the USA in the 1970s - because performers were paid, there was an attempt to prosecute them using prostitution laws, and as such it was inferred that anyone watching porn, by indirectly funding them, was a john... Needless to say, that sort of interpretation of the law was considered unlawful, and I'm confident the same would be found here.
    Quote Originally Posted by mDust View Post
    There are a lot of gray areas in the coverage of freedom of speech and press here. Divulging proprietary information is one of those gray areas and usually is not covered by either.
    But if I own a car, and I publish information I've gathered by pulling it apart with my hands, that's somehow okay?
    Quote Originally Posted by mDust View Post
    And yes, a court case should be the last course of action if only for the sake of the court systems. They are always expensive for both sides, and more often than not, the winner is whoever has the deeper pockets. But if everyone keeps settling out of court then no precedent is ever established and people keep squabbling over the same issues again and again and again. Sometimes you just have to take one for the team to settle it once and for all.
    Well, I think the answer here is judicial review - the law can be clarified without a case going through the courts

  8. #38
    Will YOU be ready when the zombies rise? x88x's Avatar
    Join Date
    Oct 2008
    Location
    MD, USA
    Posts
    6,334

    Default Re: "Keys open doors" ?

    Quote Originally Posted by mDust View Post
    I don't believe there is precedent for hacking the security devices and firmware of a game console, so Sony had every right to proceed with this in court.
    True, there is no precedent (to my knowledge) of console hacking to date, but there are many similar precedents and laws. For example, the law amended back in July that specifically legalized the jailbreaking of cellphones, and the laws and precedents surrounding computer software hacking.

    Quote Originally Posted by mDust View Post
    I sincerely agree to the point where it begins to affect other people. That's where the line is crossed.
    That is a fine line you're playing with there, and where it falls pretty much the basis of our entire legal system; balancing the rights of the individual against the rights of the community.

    Quote Originally Posted by mDust View Post
    Bump keys are illegal in many states here (as is possessing other burglary tools e.g. lock picks, slim jims for cars, etc...most professionals still use the tools anyway despite not being exempted from the law), and probably would be illegal in all states and many more countries if they were brought to the attention of lawmakers.
    Ok, two points (though in the opposite order that you presented them):
    1) Licensed locksmiths are exempted from those laws in most if not all states because they a) are registered and b) require the use of those tools in the completion of their legal job.
    2) Locksmith tools (lock picks, bump keys, etc) are not illegal in most states. In most states that I have researched, possession in and of itself does not constitute a crime. Criminal use or intent must be proven in order for possession to be a crime. There are a few states (Nevada, for example) that create a circuitous argument that then possession constitutes proof of criminal intent, but they are the exception, not the rule. For more specific information for any particular state or country, this thread is a great resource:
    http://www.lockpicking101.com/viewtopic.php?t=2850

    Quote Originally Posted by dr.walrus View Post
    Well, I think the answer here is judicial review - the law can be clarified without a case going through the courts
    Agreed. That's, honestly, my biggest frustration with this whole situation. Nothing was decided. No precedent was set. To me, that speaks of one of two situations:
    1) Hotz just got sick of the BS, and since he had already stated that he would be boycotting Sony products and that was what they wanted in settlement anyway, he decided to move on with his life.
    2) Sony knew they didn't have any legal ground to stand on, and wanted a way out.

    Which it was, we'll never know. The benefits of running Linux on the PS3 have always been unfettered access to the Cell processor. However, with recent advances in GPGPU technology, that is becoming less and less useful and less and less cost-effective. So, tbh, I doubt we'll see another case with the PS3 get this far again just because there are easier and cheaper ways to accomplish the goals that would have been achieved that don't involve tangling with a manufacturer who thinks they can control what you do with a product that you have already purchased.
    That we enjoy great advantages from the inventions of others, we should be glad of an opportunity to serve others by any invention of ours, and this we should do freely and generously.
    --Benjamin Franklin
    TBCS 5TB Club :: coilgun :: bench PSU :: mightyMite :: Zeus :: E15 Magna EV

  9. #39
    Mentally Underclocked mDust's Avatar
    Join Date
    Aug 2009
    Location
    Michigan
    Posts
    1,639

    Default Re: "Keys open doors" ?

    Quote Originally Posted by dr.walrus
    Again, the crowbar analogy holds. The 'generalised accessory' falls flat when you look at publishing. A good example of this can be found in the birth of legal porn in the USA in the 1970s - because performers were paid, there was an attempt to prosecute them using prostitution laws, and as such it was inferred that anyone watching porn, by indirectly funding them, was a john... Needless to say, that sort of interpretation of the law was considered unlawful, and I'm confident the same would be found here.
    I'm not sure how circumventing security and providing that information to law-abiding PS3 owners and potential criminals with indifference is generalization. Likewise, I'm not sure how/why you are well informed on US prostitution laws () but nobody is being generalized in a manner similar to your example. Geohot opened the locked door, the hacker committed the crime, and sony happens to own the PSN that was hacked using geohots security breach.
    Quote Originally Posted by dr.walrus
    But if I own a car, and I publish information I've gathered by pulling it apart with my hands, that's somehow okay?
    Cars are generally constructed of off-the-shelf and custom parts, most of which were not manufactured by the company that designed/assembled the car. They are also generally not proprietary. However, if you took apart a proprietary security system in the car, figured out how to bypass it, made that info available to criminals who use it to steal cars...that would be a similar scenario. You would be an accessory to the theft. Freedom of speech/press may or may not be a valid defense depending on a lot of factors.

    Quote Originally Posted by dr.walrus
    Well, I think the answer here is judicial review - the law can be clarified without a case going through the courts
    Judicial review (in the US) only determines whether or not something is unconstitutional. They also don't bother with small-time cases like this. They tend to concern themselves with such things as the validity of a law that potentially affects the outcome of current cases. Also, I'm not sure that they ever create new laws based on their decisions. So, we're stuck with nothing. Both sides will continue to disagree perpetually.

    Quote Originally Posted by x88x View Post
    That is a fine line you're playing with there, and where it falls pretty much the basis of our entire legal system; balancing the rights of the individual against the rights of the community.
    Act like an idiot in your home: no consequences. Act like an idiot in public: disturbing the peace or disorderly conduct, arrested.
    Black out drunk in your home: no (legal) consequences. Black out drunk in public: public intoxication, arrested.
    Driving like a maniac on your property: no (legal) consequences. Driving like a maniac on public roads: reckless driving, huge ticket, possible loss of license.
    Somehow manage to beat yourself up: no consequences. Beat someone else up: assault, arrested.

    Most laws are in place to protect the community from the individual. All of the rights of the individual terminate when they intersect with the rights of anyone else. For example, if someone came to your home to preach their agenda and you make it known that you do not want to hear it, their freedom of speech ends until they leave your property. They have no right to force you to hear what they want to say. This also applies to some degree in public places.
    If your actions negatively impact millions of innocent people, the legality of said actions should be questioned. Due to the negative impact being the loss of access to the PSN, nobody is going to take it seriously...

    Quote Originally Posted by x88x View Post
    Ok, two points (though in the opposite order that you presented them):
    1) Licensed locksmiths are exempted from those laws in most if not all states because they a) are registered and b) require the use of those tools in the completion of their legal job.
    2) Locksmith tools (lock picks, bump keys, etc) are not illegal in most states. In most states that I have researched, possession in and of itself does not constitute a crime. Criminal use or intent must be proven in order for possession to be a crime. There are a few states (Nevada, for example) that create a circuitous argument that then possession constitutes proof of criminal intent, but they are the exception, not the rule. For more specific information for any particular state or country, this thread is a great resource:
    http://www.lockpicking101.com/viewtopic.php?t=2850
    As far as I know, nobody is exempted from the law due to their profession with the exception of certain government employees and even then only under certain conditions. But you are right about burglary tools not being illegal in most states. The list of state burglary laws I had found omitted several clauses, often the one saying 'intent to commit a crime' is a necessary condition in addition to possession. I found a better, hopefully more complete list here. I checked it against half a dozen versions posted on official state sites and they seem to be word-for-word accurate and complete. Though I have had a slim jim personally confiscated from me when I was trying to unlock my own car. Perhaps it was a city law/ordinance?
    I'll procrastinate tomorrow.

  10. #40
    Will YOU be ready when the zombies rise? x88x's Avatar
    Join Date
    Oct 2008
    Location
    MD, USA
    Posts
    6,334

    Default Re: "Keys open doors" ?

    Quote Originally Posted by mDust View Post
    As far as I know, nobody is exempted from the law due to their profession with the exception of certain government employees and even then only under certain conditions.
    In the few states that have a circuitous or outright ban on such tools, usually there's a proviso in the law that states that they apply except in the case of a licensed, professional, locksmith in the course of performing their legal duties. I believe this is the case in California. That being said, since most states require a criminal intent for it to be illegal and by definition a locksmith performing their legal duties would not fall under 'criminal intent' since they have the permission of the owner, I imagine it's not a legal scenario that comes up all that often.

    Quote Originally Posted by mDust View Post
    Though I have had a slim jim personally confiscated from me when I was trying to unlock my own car. Perhaps it was a city law/ordinance?
    Probably, yeah. Since local laws supersede state and federal laws when they are more restrictive, that is very likely the case. I haven't looked into many cities, but I know it's a similar situation with weapons laws.
    That we enjoy great advantages from the inventions of others, we should be glad of an opportunity to serve others by any invention of ours, and this we should do freely and generously.
    --Benjamin Franklin
    TBCS 5TB Club :: coilgun :: bench PSU :: mightyMite :: Zeus :: E15 Magna EV

Posting Permissions

  • You may not post new threads
  • You may not post replies
  • You may not post attachments
  • You may not edit your posts
  •