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Thread: "Keys open doors" ?

  1. #51
    Console God LiTHiUM0XiD3's Avatar
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    Default Re: "Keys open doors" ?

    look...PSN being down has little to **** all to do with geohot.. period...GEOHOT was never actually bothered in regards to this hack.. NOR... did he create an avenue for which it to hapen
    mdust... ur lookin at this as a morality conflict it seems... for the greater good perhaps.. (speculation)
    geohot exposed sony's lazy piss poor security... someone else noted this... and made use of it... nowhere in this hack was a PS3 involved...

    i WILL jailbreak my phone.. for tweaks not piracy.. i WILL jtag my 360 for homebrew and such... and u bet ur ass if i get my hands on my own PS3 the first thing i will be doing to it will be jailbreaking it aswell..

    this man is a pioneer... u may not agree with it now.... but we r moving into to a whole new age of this world... ppl will be beggin for ppl like him to free us from the world of the corporations and the bureaucrat

    hackers have saved us from DRM.... and many many others things these gluttonous companies have thrown our way just to limit our enjoyment to their terms...

    nobody here would have the balls to **** on martin luther king JR....
    so does geohot need some sorta parade to get proper recognition?
    Quote Originally Posted by nevermind1534 View Post
    I wouldn't be surprised if somebody sigquotes part of this.

  2. #52
    Administrator OvRiDe's Avatar
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    Default Re: "Keys open doors" ?

    Just a little food for thought.. but you do realize that without these "gluttonous" corporations, their investors, and their business models you wouldn't have a phone to jailbreak, a 360 to jtag, or the ability to get a PS3 to jailbreak?

    As for a parade for geohot.. I have a hard time putting him in the same arena as MLK Jr. I don't see jailbreaking a device even remotely as a "human right".

  3. #53
    Console God LiTHiUM0XiD3's Avatar
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    Default Re: "Keys open doors" ?

    they create a product and expect us not to alter them in any way? i am quite happy they make them for us... but to let them control what we do with the items we have bought?
    not cool.. and perhaps i exaggerated... but geohot is still a person who is standing up for our rights as consumers to use our products to their fullest...


    i will bet if they spent the money they do on the security to lock us out on actual upgrades and tweaks... we wouldnt need to jailbreak our devices
    Quote Originally Posted by nevermind1534 View Post
    I wouldn't be surprised if somebody sigquotes part of this.

  4. #54
    Mentally Underclocked mDust's Avatar
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    Default Re: "Keys open doors" ?

    I completely forgot about this discussion. I honestly can't believe how far this has gone. Oh well...

    Quote Originally Posted by dr.walrus View Post
    How any analogy in relation to doors to someone else's property makes sense to giving people access to electronics they already own is beyond me!

    System level access? I'm really not seeing this...
    The geohot hack didn't just give access to hidden bits of their purchased and owned console, it gave them access to hidden bits of the PSN and allows custom firmware and software to run both on the console and on the network. I would assume Sony has this patched by now, but if not, it's created a major weak point that destabilizes the product for ALL users. Also, PS3 owners own the hardware...but not the firmware or PSN...Sony owns the network, thus, hacking it is analogous to breaking and entering.
    Quote Originally Posted by dr.walrus View Post
    And the bill of rights? The first amendment? The second? The third......?

    "To break into that house, smash the door glass, reach in, turn the lock" - This instruction is not illegal. It's not even questionably legal. It's completely legal.

    Giving thost instructions to a man in a hoodie outside a house at 3am is quite probably a crime. It's all about the context, much like exactly where I'm carrying my crowbar, knife or whatever.
    The first amendment...the second and third are completely irrelevant. The following are not covered by the first amendment: defamation, causing panic, fighting words, incitement to crime, sedition, and obscenity.
    ...the Supreme Court held that “advocacy of the use of
    force or of law violation” is protected unless “such advocacy is directed to inciting or producing imminent lawless action and is likely to incite or produce such action.
    http://www.fas.org/sgp/crs/misc/95-815.pdf
    That helps make x88x's case with all the links he posted above. However, it WAS likely to produce imminent, lawless actions such as piracy (geohot admitted this himself before Sony forced him to take down his site)...which it did as a side effect. So geohots publication of his hack would not be recognized as protected free speech/press by the supreme court.
    Quote Originally Posted by dr.walrus View Post
    There is absolutely NO chain of causation here. This is what should be classified under law as an 'intervening act' - he did not hack the PSN and is no way responsible.
    The chain of causation is not broken due to geohot foreseeing the piracy and malicious use. In a link that LiTHiUM0XiD3 posted elsewhere, and that I was suspected of not reading, geohot admitted that he knew there would be piracy and that 'bad things could happen as a result of the hack'. I can't find the link (as if it mattered since it's been taken down) but here is where it used to be.
    Quote Originally Posted by dr.walrus View Post
    Court cases deal with unresolvable disputes. This clearly wasn't one.
    I guess not...Sony vs George Hotz was a civil case anyway...not criminal.

    Quote Originally Posted by x88x
    First off, I have yet to see any line of causation demonstrated between Hotz's hack and the PSN downtime. To my understanding, the PSN attack was (as I stated a couple pages back) the result of an attack on an internal Sony database server that was accessed after attackers gained access to Sony's internal network through a poorly maintained webserver.
    It appears to be only one of the many rumors as Sony has confirmed no other reason for the downtime than an 'external intrusion'. Though I can't believe a piracy issue would take a month to fix like I can't believe it takes a month to update and secure an outdated Apache server. Something more malicious than piracy and stolen data must have happened.
    Quote Originally Posted by x88x
    Second, the main thing that Sony was taking issue with was Hotz publishing his findings. The only tools that he released were specifically designed to hack standalone devices to run alternate firmware that allowed a different OS to be run on the device. As far as I can tell, that fits firmly within the realm of "Hack your standalone device all you want."
    My response:
    After last week's cracking of the PS3's master key, it was only a matter of time before the first full pirated game booted up on PS3. And... it has. Castlevania: Lords of Shadow has been shown running off a hard drive, with the PS3 convinced it's a PSN game. GeoHot, the hacker responsible for publishing the key online, may well be 'totally against piracy', but the pirates in question are gleefully touting 'GeoHot's custom firmware' as their springboard. D'oh.
    http://www.gamesradar.com/ps3/playst...14115917309058
    Custom firmware allows for unsigned software to be run as well as modded games, etc. This means the PS3 multiplayer experience will be a lot more like the 360: rampant hacking and cheating.
    Quote Originally Posted by x88x
    I can do this all day, dude.
    It appears you can.
    Quote Originally Posted by x88x
    What about the millions of martial arts dojos around the world? Did you think none of them taught any information or techniques that could be lethal?

    The simple truth of the matter is that this kind of information is not hard to come by and is published all the time by very reputable individuals and companies. Censorship of information in the US is a very serious matter and it takes a lot to get any information banned from the public knowledge.
    I was confused and wrong again...which happens a lot. That information is legal unless it's shown that the content is likely to incite or promote lawless action. See above about first amendment.
    Quote Originally Posted by x88x
    Let's be honest here...that information was never going away even if he had complied. As we always like to say, once you put something on the internet, it never goes away. ...besides, if I had been in his position I wouldn't have taken it down either, just on principle. People in general do not respond to dubious legal threats from giant corporations in ways that benefit those corporations....especially the type of people who tend to get into hardware hacking.
    I have no doubt that the information was mirrored minutes after it was posted, if not before...which is all the more reason he could have taken it down as requested to avoid this whole mess. I'm pretty sure he wanted this all to happen and would not be surprised to find out he's busy exploiting his fame.

    Quote Originally Posted by LiTHiUM0XiD3
    look...PSN being down has little to **** all to do with geohot.. period...GEOHOT was never actually bothered in regards to this hack.. NOR... did he create an avenue for which it to hapen
    mdust... ur lookin at this as a morality conflict it seems... for the greater good perhaps.. (speculation)
    geohot exposed sony's lazy piss poor security... someone else noted this... and made use of it... nowhere in this hack was a PS3 involved...
    Since only Sony and the hacker(s) responsible know precisely what was meant by 'external intrusion' it's kind of hard to say who is and is not responsible. If Sony is referring to the custom firmware allowing devkit access, then yes, geohot is partially to blame. If the outdated Apache server (which was not part of the PSN) is to blame for the PSN downtime, then geohot may or may not still be to blame. If something else was also hacked and damaged, we still can't say...neither you or I know for sure. Since I hate the guy and you worship him, let's both disqualify ourselves from jury duty, huh?
    Quote Originally Posted by LiTHiUM0XiD3
    i WILL jailbreak my phone.. for tweaks not piracy.. i WILL jtag my 360 for homebrew and such... and u bet ur ass if i get my hands on my own PS3 the first thing i will be doing to it will be jailbreaking it aswell..
    Go for it! Just don't contribute to the network hacks, piracy, cheating, etc. I don't care what anyone does to their property as long as they aren't doing stupid, greedy, short-sighted, immature things that negatively affect other people that paid the same amount of money as you to use their product in peace.
    Quote Originally Posted by LiTHiUM0XiD3
    this man is a pioneer... u may not agree with it now.... but we r moving into to a whole new age of this world... ppl will be beggin for ppl like him to free us from the world of the corporations and the bureaucrat

    hackers have saved us from DRM.... and many many others things these gluttonous companies have thrown our way just to limit our enjoyment to their terms...

    nobody here would have the balls to **** on martin luther king JR....
    so does geohot need some sorta parade to get proper recognition?
    uhhh....
    Quote Originally Posted by LiTHiUM0XiD3
    but geohot is still a person who is standing up for our rights as consumers to use our products to their fullest...
    Your fearless leader settled out of court and agreed to never even look at another Sony product as long as he lives... He didn't stand up for much at all except maybe to exploit circumstances on the public dime to obtain celebrity status. Sounds kind of shady.

    Quote Originally Posted by OvRiDe
    Just a little food for thought.. but you do realize that without these "gluttonous" corporations, their investors, and their business models you wouldn't have a phone to jailbreak, a 360 to jtag, or the ability to get a PS3 to jailbreak?
    I'm not sure how people support these companies with their hard earned dollars but hate them so much. It's a major hypocrisy rampant throughout the world. Anarchy is trendy I guess.

    EDiT: Damn, I just TL;DR'd myself. Is there a longest post in TBCS history award?
    I'll procrastinate tomorrow.

  5. #55
    The floppy drive is no longer obsolete. AmEv's Avatar
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    Default Re: "Keys open doors" ?

    Sigquote yourself (with all other quotes, and you will ALWAYS win
    Two years. They were great. Let's make the next ones even better!

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  6. #56
    AARGH dr.walrus's Avatar
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    Default Re: "Keys open doors" ?

    Quote Originally Posted by mDust View Post
    I completely forgot about this discussion. I honestly can't believe how far this has gone. Oh well...

    The geohot hack didn't just give access to hidden bits of their purchased and owned console, it gave them access to hidden bits of the PSN and allows custom firmware and software to run both on the console and on the network. I would assume Sony has this patched by now, but if not, it's created a major weak point that destabilizes the product for ALL users. Also, PS3 owners own the hardware...but not the firmware or PSN...Sony owns the network, thus, hacking it is analogous to breaking and entering.
    Yes, to people who access it. He wasn't doing that, just giving information relevant to how
    Quote Originally Posted by mDust View Post
    The first amendment...the second and third are completely irrelevant. The following are not covered by the first amendment: defamation, causing panic, fighting words, incitement to crime, sedition, and obscenity.
    You missed my point. Much of your constitution is based around individual rights, something you denied. And what he did isn't ANY of those things you have listed - though I agree that list presents and interesting discussion in itself about what 'free speech' actually is.
    Quote Originally Posted by mDust View Post
    That helps make x88x's case with all the links he posted above. However, it WAS likely to produce imminent, lawless actions such as piracy (geohot admitted this himself before Sony forced him to take down his site)...which it did as a side effect. So geohots publication of his hack would not be recognized as protected free speech/press by the supreme court.
    I think this is all a massive stretch.
    Quote Originally Posted by mDust View Post
    The chain of causation is not broken due to geohot foreseeing the piracy and malicious use. In a link that LiTHiUM0XiD3 posted elsewhere, and that I was suspected of not reading, geohot admitted that he knew there would be piracy and that 'bad things could happen as a result of the hack'. I can't find the link (as if it mattered since it's been taken down) but here is where it used to be.
    Sorry, this indicates a poor understanding of causation under law. For an unlawful act to take place, someone needs to hack into the network. This act of hacking is a clear-cut intervening act, and moreover something Geohot never claimed to do, have done, or support.

    In conclusion, in my opinion, Sony could take him to court and request a legal injunction on the publication of this material until they were able to patch the network. In addition, this request could ONLY extend to PSN-related issues.

    I don't believe they should be able to request damages, since his actions were not unlawful. This should have been Geohot's response in the first place.

    Like x88x's exhaustive list, I can buy countless books on bomb-making, lock-picking, poisoning, hacking, hacking individual operating systems... I don't see this as any different - many locks have proprietary designs.

    I can sell crowbars with impunity, KNOWING that some will be used illegally. Same with guns (in the US). Lingenfelter will sell and fit a supercharger kit to your corvette, knowing it can hit 200mph and you don't have a racing permit. In each case; breaking and entering, using the crowbar; shooting someone, with my gun; speeding, in my Corvette - there is an intervening act. My actions. I believe in regulation to restrict people buying things like guns, bomb-making materials, even selling knives to children, but doing something that might potentially open the door for illegal action isn't illegal - moreover, without a chain of causation or a high level of knowledge, it's unlikely to even be unlawful.

    I think it's Sony's legal right to protect their network, but not their consoles - consoles YOU own. What does this boil down to? As with all things PS3, Blu-ray. The PS3 was sold at a loss to get blu-ray drives into peoples' homes, and doing so they won the format war. However, this leaves Sony with a huge headache. How do they stem the tide on a product losing them billions?

    With licensed products. Games, Blu-rays, accessories. If they lose that, they're screwed.

    I don't like any product ecosystem economically reliant on you having to buy extra stuff to pay back the manufacturer. I don't own an iphone or a games console. I've never owned a Polaroid camera. I own something and want to use it however I want. Stop it accessing your network? Fine by me!

  7. #57
    Will YOU be ready when the zombies rise? x88x's Avatar
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    Default Re: "Keys open doors" ?

    Quote Originally Posted by mDust View Post
    However, it WAS likely to produce imminent, lawless actions such as piracy (geohot admitted this himself before Sony forced him to take down his site)...which it did as a side effect. So geohots publication of his hack would not be recognized as protected free speech/press by the supreme court.

    [..]

    The chain of causation is not broken due to geohot foreseeing the piracy and malicious use. In a link that LiTHiUM0XiD3 posted elsewhere, and that I was suspected of not reading, geohot admitted that he knew there would be piracy and that 'bad things could happen as a result of the hack'.
    Like dr.walrus said, I think you're misinterpreting what constitutes legal causation. By that logic, Bram Cohen (inventor of the BitTorrent protocol, for those who don't know; linky) should be prosecuted for every piracy case where files were transferred using torrents.

    Quote Originally Posted by mDust View Post
    Go for it! Just don't contribute to the network hacks, piracy, cheating, etc. I don't care what anyone does to their property as long as they aren't doing stupid, greedy, short-sighted, immature things that negatively affect other people that paid the same amount of money as you to use their product in peace.
    You keep saying this, but in the case of the PS3 the two are mutually inclusive. Because they chose to use the same authentication key for everything, hacking an individual console involves the exact same information (ie, that key) as hacking the network.

    Quote Originally Posted by mDust View Post
    I'm not sure how people support these companies with their hard earned dollars but hate them so much. It's a major hypocrisy rampant throughout the world. Anarchy is trendy I guess.
    I can't speak for anyone else, but I'm pretty sure I've never purchased anything made by Sony.
    That we enjoy great advantages from the inventions of others, we should be glad of an opportunity to serve others by any invention of ours, and this we should do freely and generously.
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  8. #58
    AARGH dr.walrus's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by x88x View Post
    I can't speak for anyone else, but I'm pretty sure I've never purchased anything made by Sony.
    I have also never been employed by Sony or their subsiduaries.

  9. #59
    Mentally Underclocked mDust's Avatar
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    Default Re: "Keys open doors" ?

    Quote Originally Posted by x88x View Post
    Like dr.walrus said, I think you're misinterpreting what constitutes legal causation. By that logic, Bram Cohen (inventor of the BitTorrent protocol, for those who don't know; linky) should be prosecuted for every piracy case where files were transferred using torrents.
    I'm not a lawyer and have no law background so it's entirely likely. I've read about Bram Cohen and bit torrent previously and I see your points.
    Quote Originally Posted by x88x View Post
    You keep saying this, but in the case of the PS3 the two are mutually inclusive. Because they chose to use the same authentication key for everything, hacking an individual console involves the exact same information (ie, that key) as hacking the network.
    Then Sony needs to announce that unlocked consoles with custom firmware will be banned permanently from the PSN and after an appropriate time enforce that rule. The hacked consoles must be quarantined to guarantee stability and fairness while preventing piracy and malicious use.
    Quote Originally Posted by x88x View Post
    I can't speak for anyone else, but I'm pretty sure I've never purchased anything made by Sony.
    I have a pair of Sony studio monitors somewhere and owned a PS2 for a while. I currently have no plans to buy any Sony products but if they had a great product that I wanted, I'd certainly purchase it.
    Quote Originally Posted by dr.walrus
    I have also never been employed by Sony or their subsiduaries.
    I'll procrastinate tomorrow.

  10. #60
    AARGH dr.walrus's Avatar
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    Default Re: "Keys open doors" ?

    Quote Originally Posted by mDust View Post
    We all gotta eat! The other half of my wage bill was paid by Ericsson, if you can put 2 + 2 together...

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