So I was thinking the other day while looking for a new heatsink. And while the heatpipe and radiator design is nice. And water-cooling is the s@#t. All in all its just a act of Conveyance to a larger piece of metal with a greater surface area. And surface area to dissipate heat is what the name of the game is. (in as small of a package as possible)
So why not make summon up the powers of the mandelbrot set and bust yourself off a Cubed fractal radiator? I know you could only break it down so much with modern tooling and i'd guess the materials itself. but it'd seem even if you went down by a factor of 2 you'd get around 30x the surface area. (my math sucks) of a traditional style radiator.
Do you think a 6 Axis machine with the most amazingly small drill bits and a CAD drafter that has had way to much coffee could program something along those lines?
or am i just blowing smoke out of my a@#.
06-29-2011, 02:01 PM
Blibbax
Re: Why Doesn't a Fractal Heatsink exist?
A heatsink design like this would be expensive to manufacture and stifle airflow (most of the surface area would never see airflow).
06-29-2011, 02:32 PM
nevermind1534
Re: Why Doesn't a Fractal Heatsink exist?
Quote:
Originally Posted by Blibbax
and stifle airflow (most of the surface area would never see airflow).
I think the machining involved in that would be damn near impossible, as well as very expensive.
06-29-2011, 05:04 PM
Twigsoffury
Re: Why Doesn't a Fractal Heatsink exist?
Quote:
Originally Posted by Blibbax
A heatsink design like this would be expensive to manufacture and stifle airflow (most of the surface area would never see airflow).
oooh here i made this to explain my idea a little better
Should be able to cool a whole computer, without the need of a fan at all. or a reservoir. if you looped all the cool lines together with a single pump then you would only need a single pump at that.. but thats a hell of a lot of hoses and you could i assume use multiple smaller pumps with a lot less hassle.
But thats just a random idea.
06-29-2011, 05:07 PM
Collinstheclown
Re: Why Doesn't a Fractal Heatsink exist?
Oh you meant like a radiator type thing?
06-29-2011, 05:19 PM
Twigsoffury
Re: Why Doesn't a Fractal Heatsink exist?
Quote:
Originally Posted by Collinstheclown
Oh you meant like a radiator type thing?
yea and the hot water intake is equal to the cool outlet and a hot side never touches another hot side directly and always has two cool sides to conduct from. I'd even be efficient from one side to the other since the hots and cools enter from opposing sides and are interlaced.
as that stands though it'd already be 4 hots divided into 10 intake hoses and 20 inlets and 20 outlets multiplied back to 10 exhaust hoses multiplied back into the 4 cool returns.
So i'm thinking its pretty obvious you would need machined manifolds for each side.
06-29-2011, 05:50 PM
dr.walrus
Re: Why Doesn't a Fractal Heatsink exist?
Quote:
Originally Posted by Twigsoffury
as that stands though it'd already be 4 hots divided into 10 intake hoses and 20 inlets and 20 outlets multiplied back to 10 exhaust hoses multiplied back into the 4 cool returns.
This is my thinking:
Massive amount of coupling, hopelessly impractical, multiplying leak risk many-fold
Massive increase in flow resistance, would need a much higher flow rate. That means a much higher water pressure, and a massive increase in leaks... see point 1
Enormous blockage risk (though I appreciate that this may be mitigated)
Uncleanable (can't visually inspect either)
Unmachinable (would need layers of laminated material therefore reduces thermal conductivity anyway)
Thermal conductivity in copper is so high, warmer spots a few mm apart are removed within moments anyway, mitigating the need for this design (see last point)
...Why not just machine a very large number of straight passages through a thin block? There's an industrial process used for print rollers that drills extremely narrow holes to create a layer of air between the paper and the roller, I've always thought a very large number of small parallel holes like that would be the best option...
06-29-2011, 05:50 PM
Collinstheclown
Re: Why Doesn't a Fractal Heatsink exist?
06-29-2011, 05:52 PM
dr.walrus
Re: Why Doesn't a Fractal Heatsink exist?
Quote:
Originally Posted by nevermind1534
It could work in a fanless setting, though.
Fanless setups rely on airflow too; they just work using convection and natural airflow to move the air...
06-29-2011, 10:14 PM
Twigsoffury
Re: Why Doesn't a Fractal Heatsink exist?
Quote:
Originally Posted by dr.walrus
This is my thinking:
Massive amount of coupling, hopelessly impractical, multiplying leak risk many-fold
Massive increase in flow resistance, would need a much higher flow rate. That means a much higher water pressure, and a massive increase in leaks... see point 1
Enormous blockage risk (though I appreciate that this may be mitigated)
Uncleanable (can't visually inspect either)
Unmachinable (would need layers of laminated material therefore reduces thermal conductivity anyway)
Thermal conductivity in copper is so high, warmer spots a few mm apart are removed within moments anyway, mitigating the need for this design (see last point)
...Why not just machine a very large number of straight passages through a thin block? There's an industrial process used for print rollers that drills extremely narrow holes to create a layer of air between the paper and the roller, I've always thought a very large number of small parallel holes like that would be the best option...
No, firstly for all of those excellent Walrus based points above, and secondly because genuinely passive cooling (as in not even a case fan) still only works by moving air.
If the air around the heatsink was stationary, it'd eventually just become incredibly hot and the CPU would overheat. But the heat from the heatsink creates a convection current, which moves air over the heatsink. This heatsink would stifle that convection current, and indeed much of the heatsink would never be reached by the passing air.
07-01-2011, 03:36 PM
Twigsoffury
Re: Why Doesn't a Fractal Heatsink exist?
Quote:
Originally Posted by Blibbax
No, firstly for all of those excellent Walrus based points above, and secondly because genuinely passive cooling (as in not even a case fan) still only works by moving air.
If the air around the heatsink was stationary, it'd eventually just become incredibly hot and the CPU would overheat. But the heat from the heatsink creates a convection current, which moves air over the heatsink. This heatsink would stifle that convection current, and indeed much of the heatsink would never be reached by the passing air.
the air necessarily doesn't need to touch the inner parts of the heatsink since the opposing cold flow cools off the hot side coming from the other direction. and its internal structure is basically a bunch of interconnected bent radiator fins welded together thats in and of itself surrounded by water that is surrounded by a larger array of fins to dissipate the heat generated....just like how heatpipes work.
Sure looks like that system would burn up from a outside perspective doesn't it just like your thinking with the inside of my heatsink.? But since physics says heat ALWAYS travels to cold and cold never travels to hot the inner most core of my heatsink would only be slightly warmer then the layers towards the outside.
And i was thinking it would look something more this this that sits outside the computer.
and not something that fits nicely inside your computer case baking in the heat. But the device up there is just a big empty tube inside.
Not alot of metal on water physical contact with the heatsink is there when you think about it....
I'm saying make a device with a set amount of channels for each side that follows a sort of fractal based design for maximum surface area against the water in as small of a space as possible inside.
And make the hot sides enter from a opposing side and always have at least 2 of those surfaces against a cold side running in the opposite direction for maximum thermal transfer between the hot and cold.
Heres a single loop version a friend came up with with the classic reservoir
Physics just says a square has a better capacity then a circle does (less wasted space using squares then using circles) so thats why my design was cubed and not cylinderical like the one up above since I'd be using a ton of ultra bent tubes or channels inside and not a empty space. Guess i need to MSpaint CAD me a side angle view of what im talking about.
I'll get to work. hopefully it'll come across better on the internet since i can't exactly explain this in person with yall.
07-01-2011, 04:13 PM
Twigsoffury
Re: Why Doesn't a Fractal Heatsink exist?
i used red and blue for opposing flows. The arrows on the side show each tubes hot enter and cold exit. and remember thats a side view of something almost 20 channels deep so it'd be a hell of a lot of individual tubes.
I know that you can't machine something like that directly. But you sure can section it out since its fractally based. basically like building a ship. Build each single loop as a section of boxes and rectangles with one hot enterance and one cold exit, Combine 2 loops together to make a exact copy only on a bigger scale as the single version with 2 hots and 2 colds . combine two of those together to get 4 and so on and so on.
then combine 4 complete rows together for err.. 64 total hots and colds for each device.
then combine four more of those rows together for all the devices together and have 256 total tubes for those 4 devices to get cooled in.
Kinda think of it like a S@#t load of heatpipes inside a heatsink only using extremely..extremely...nerdy math to get the most volume out of the space available without having any of the tubes mixing with each other.
And since its fractional you can step it up as big or small as you want i'd guess.
Quote:
Originally Posted by dr.walrus
This is my thinking:
Quote:
[*]Massive amount of coupling, hopelessly impractical, multiplying leak risk many-fold
I'd use a single machined manifold on each end that has four inlets and four exits.
Quote:
[*]Massive increase in flow resistance, would need a much higher flow rate. That means a much higher water pressure, and a massive increase in leaks... see point 1
Thats why i would use four single pumps in my design. but if you take into account that im reducing a larger volume several times, like home plumbing, when you force a larger volume of water through a smaller diameter tube large pressures are created in and of itself, and that pressure would be reduced back to the normal pressure by the manifold on the other side and return to 1/2" tubing or what ever you were to use.
So basically while yea it is "high pressure" It's also low pressure before and after the heatsink, and all the high pressures happening are contained inside the heatsink itself. all the hoses in the system would be whatever the pumps pressure is like the system you have now. (Think of a Air conditioning system with the hi-pass and lo-pass sides. Just the act of the Freon passing through a expansion chamber makes it cold, and when its compressed, it gets hot and passes through the radiator to get colder, then expanded again to get ultra cold and take in the heat from the air. then compressed and cycled again)
Quote:
[*]Enormous blockage risk (though I appreciate that this may be mitigated)
Yup, better use some copper based anit-algae additive or use PPG polypropylene glycol but i'm sure the pressures created internally is going to blow any s@#t away that attempts to make a clog.
Quote:
[*]Uncleanable (can't visually inspect either)
Can't exactly inspect the inside of the radiator you have now can you?
But if its fractally based with manifolds on each side. if you had a gasket that covered each of the sections and the manifold attached on top of that (think of a F1 cars engines intake manifold) you could break it down and clean each of the sections then assemble it back together. it'd be a bunch of boxes inside a box inside a box inside a box. inside a bigger box with a manifold on each end.
Sort of like that.
Quote:
[*]Unmachinable (would need layers of laminated material therefore reduces thermal conductivity anyway)
Ultrasonic welding is the s@#t and a leading trend in welding technology should check it out sometime. you could easily assemble and sonic weld two complex shapes together, then weld those two pieces to two pieces that are exactly the same shape only polar opposite. and you've got one section, do that 512 times over and you've got my heatsink design.
Majorbud's job has a huge industrial Sonic welding machine that can assemble a aluminum window frame in less then 1/4 of the time it takes the traditional machine to weld a aluminum frame, they have plans for 5 more units to replace the current welders. Theres also almost no risk of leakage (air,water,argon gas inside the multi pane windows) since well.. a sonic weld is 100% the same edge to edge and doesn't use heat to mesh the two sides together. It uses a Ultra f@#king dank sound to litterely shake the two pieces into one.
If that machine can weld pieces like that together, why can't it weld my two pieces of metal together? then repeat that process hundreds of times over.
Quote:
[*]Thermal conductivity in copper is so high, warmer spots a few mm apart are removed within moments anyway, mitigating the need for this design (see last point)
exactly, now imagine how much thermal energy you could dissipate in a 1 foot long cubed heatsink with 256 tubes that have opposing cool hot flows 1/32"nd of a inch away from each other for the whole 9 foot trip through the heatsink. with two cools sides always touching the hot side. remember if you add all those 1/32" walls together i'd think they would add upto about 3" of solid material inside the cube. thats a s@#t load of cooling potential in itself.
I'm sure if you had some cool water already looping the opposing lines on the other circuits, you could cool off a 5 gallon container of boiling hot water in less then a few minutes.
Quote:
[*]...Why not just machine a very large number of straight passages through a thin block?
Because my design has almost 44x the amount of travel and almost (lemme use a calculator) 1,648.374x the surface area in the same space as a straight through pipe.
and i can fit (calculator time again) almost 20x the amount of tubes in the same space as a traditional design with straight through pipes. because i can fit two or more tubes in the volume of space your straight tube occupies in that same heatsink. AND with interposing directions in that same exact space.
its basically just based off the mandelbrot set. in laymans terms. It's like when you try and measure a 1 foot complex shaped cube with a 12" ruler you'll come out with 12" x 12" x 12".
But if you measure that same 12" box only now with a 6" ruler, you'll come out with 24"x24"x24"
Do it again with a 3" ruler and you'll come out with 48x48x48 sized box.
Sort of like that, or
Quote:
The Mandelbrot set M is defined by a family of complex quadratic polynomials
given by
where c is a complex parameter. For each c, one considers the behavior of the sequence
obtained by iterating Pc(z) starting at critical point z = 0, which either escapes to infinity or stays within a disk of some finite radius. The Mandelbrot set is defined as the set of all points c such that the above sequence does not escape to infinity.
A mathematician's depiction of the Mandelbrot set M. A point c is coloured black if it belongs to the set, and white if not. Re[c] and Im[c] denote the real and imaginary parts of c, respectively.
More formally, if denotes the nth iterate of Pc(z) (i.e. Pc(z) composed with itself n times), the Mandelbrot set is the subset of the complex plane given by
As explained below, it is in fact possible to simplify this definition by taking s = 2.
Mathematically, the Mandelbrot set is just a set of complex numbers. A given complex number c either belongs to M or it does not. A picture of the Mandelbrot set can be made by colouring all the points c which belong to M black, and all other points white. The more colourful pictures usually seen are generated by colouring points not in the set according to how quickly or slowly the sequence diverges to infinity. See the section on computer drawings below for more details.
The Mandelbrot set can also be defined as the connectedness locus of the family of polynomials Pc(z). That is, it is the subset of the complex plane consisting of those parameters c for which the Julia set of Pc is connected
Where is the cold fluid coming from? It looks like cold fluid runs into the cpu block which then becomes warm fluid. It runs into the fractal cooler and is cooled by air and cold fluid which is also on its way to the cpu block? I'm fairly certain you won't have hot and cold tubes, but all warm tubes within a degree or two of each other.
Constriction would definitely be a problem. There will be high pressure between the pump and the fractal cooler and lower pressure on the return loop. You will not get any 'refrigeration' effect from this. It will either blow the tube off the pump, leak, or damage the pump. If you increase the size of your fractal cooler the 'larger pipe diameter' will ease the pressure...but not by much. You'll still need at least a couple of pumps with either a huge multi-pass, series loop or multiple dedicated loops.
If you sonically weld the layers together, then it's back to not being cleanable. Fluid additives would be out of the question. Mixed metals and corrosion would be an even larger problem.
Squares might be the first choice when it comes to efficient use of space, but they will play hell on the fluid dynamics. You want a little turbulence in a waterblock to maximize the number of molecules that strike the block, but you don't want as much turbulence as your square fractals would create. This is what would be slowing the fluid and creating all that pressure at the intake. You could at least make use of gravity by putting the intake at the top and outlet at the bottom of a tall stack.
Simple radiators already have an excellent balance of surface area vs restriction. They are also very cheap and easy to manufacture. I could see your design being a cool project for a mod, but it could never be a salable product. That's why they don't exist.
07-01-2011, 08:47 PM
Twigsoffury
Re: Why Doesn't a Fractal Heatsink exist?
Quote:
Originally Posted by mDust
That's why they don't exist.
don't exist yet
07-01-2011, 11:04 PM
CorsePerVita
Re: Why Doesn't a Fractal Heatsink exist?
This thread makes me want watercooling on my PC.
07-02-2011, 06:29 AM
dr.walrus
Re: Why Doesn't a Fractal Heatsink exist?
Quote:
Originally Posted by Twigsoffury
I'd use a single machined manifold on each end that has four inlets and four exits.
There is a fundamental problem here that you're using not using a 'linear' system that goes cold>warm from left>right. The distribution of cold and warm channels means that the incoming water would be heated. Thermal conductivity? Amazing. Thermal performance? You're cutting off your nose to spite your face here.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Twigsoffury
Thats why i would use four single pumps in my design.
but if you take into account that im reducing a larger volume several times, like home plumbing, when you force a larger volume of water through a smaller diameter tube large pressures are created in and of itself, and that pressure would be reduced back to the normal pressure by the manifold on the other side and return to 1/2" tubing or what ever you were to use.
I see what you're getting at, but this would still increase the pressure throughout the system...
Quote:
Originally Posted by Twigsoffury
Yup, better use some copper based anit-algae additive or use PPG polypropylene glycol but i'm sure the pressures created internally is going to blow any s@#t away that attempts to make a clog.
This would have at least 3 zeros on the price tag, I'm not sure I'd want to take that risk!
Quote:
Originally Posted by Twigsoffury
Can't exactly inspect the inside of the radiator you have now can you?
Yeah but at a few thousand dollars in cost, I'd be very unhappy if the response to 'it's blocked' was 'oh well'
Quote:
Originally Posted by Twigsoffury
But if its fractally based with manifolds on each side. if you had a gasket that covered each of the sections and the manifold attached on top of that (think of a F1 cars engines intake manifold) you could break it down and clean each of the sections then assemble it back together. it'd be a bunch of boxes inside a box inside a box inside a box. inside a bigger box with a manifold on each end.
The gaskets would just insulate each layer, making the whole design pointless!
Quote:
Originally Posted by Twigsoffury
exactly, now imagine how much thermal energy you could dissipate in a 1 foot long cubed heatsink with 256 tubes that have opposing cool hot flows 1/32"nd of a inch away from each other for the whole 9 foot trip through the heatsink. with two cools sides always touching the hot side. remember if you add all those 1/32" walls together i'd think they would add upto about 3" of solid material inside the cube. thats a s@#t load of cooling potential in itself.
I'm sure if you had some cool water already looping the opposing lines on the other circuits, you could cool off a 5 gallon container of boiling hot water in less then a few minutes.
Because my design has almost 44x the amount of travel and almost (lemme use a calculator) 1,648.374x the surface area in the same space as a straight through pipe.
and i can fit (calculator time again) almost 20x the amount of tubes in the same space as a traditional design with straight through pipes. because i can fit two or more tubes in the volume of space your straight tube occupies in that same heatsink. AND with interposing directions in that same exact space.
Bizarrely, this is the exact problem with the heatsink. If it does everyhing you say, it'll be far too good at transmitting heat.
Water would get even 1/10 of the way through the heatsink before normalising with the temperature of the heatsinks. The rest of the way through, it's not doing any cooling, it's just sat there at the same temperature. The only way to deal with this problem, and get the full potential out of this absolutely beautiful idea is with super high flow rates. And therefore silly pressures.
And what do you do with this enormous amount of heat you extract? You're going to need a BIGASS radiator and that would preferably have some auxillary cooling too. Else, you're just pulling all that heat out, and dumping it straight back into the system!
07-02-2011, 06:31 AM
dr.walrus
Re: Why Doesn't a Fractal Heatsink exist?
have you thought that maybe the massive increase in pressure and the massive amount of turbulence you're relying on for thermal conductivity would have a heating effect also?
07-03-2011, 12:21 PM
Twigsoffury
Re: Why Doesn't a Fractal Heatsink exist?
Quote:
Originally Posted by dr.walrus
There is a fundamental problem here that you're using not using a 'linear' system that goes cold>warm from left>right. The distribution of cold and warm channels means that the incoming water would be heated. Thermal conductivity? Amazing. Thermal performance? You're cutting off your nose to spite your face here.
Well hey now, traditional radiators function basically exactly the same as my radiator/heatsink,mines just got fractal tubes inside. But maybe it would be a better idea to have all the hots enter one side and exit the other, I'd just worry about one side of the radiator getting hotter then the other, i've noticed on the radiators we use now, the first inch or two of the internal radiator tube is pretty damn warm. I was hoping to defeat that with the opposing flows.
lol probably, but you know i'm just dreaming, so as long as its still in my head or on a piece of paper there won't be a pump failure and if you don't dream you don't design, and if you don't design nothing gets invented or discovered. Einstein was wrong as some of the little things, but as a whole the guy was a f@#king genius.
Quote:
I see what you're getting at, but this would still increase the pressure throughout the system...
You sure?
I'm pretty good at pneumatics and when you use a reduction gate 120psi can be reduced to 60psi or less depending on the I/D of the hose. Majorbud has a butterfly glass optimizer that needs to function at 60psi, while the rest of the buildings pneumatics needs to function at 120psi so they use a fancy reduction gate to reduce the pressure, I'd guess worst case scenario i could use a reduction gate as well.
Quote:
This would have at least 3 zeros on the price tag, I'm not sure I'd want to take that risk!
Hell i've seen video cards and processors with a 4 figure price tag, 3 figures is pretty common on bleeding edge technology.
Quote:
Yeah but at a few thousand dollars in cost, I'd be very unhappy if the response to 'it's blocked' was 'oh well'
thats why you could disassemble it down to the individual tubes and blow them out with a hi-pressure pneumatic hose or just run a garden hose through withever tube was affected. the thing would slide out as a whole and be able to get disassembled like a lego house.
Quote:
The gaskets would just insulate each layer, making the whole design pointless!
There are only two gaskets, one on each end to seal the manifold against the tubes. the tubes themselves would be fitted together like a giant tetris shape. because after all... tetris is just a fractal geometry game.
Quote:
Bizarrely, this is the exact problem with the heatsink. If it does everyhing you say, it'll be far too good at transmitting heat.
Water would get even 1/10 of the way through the heatsink before normalising with the temperature of the heatsinks. The rest of the way through, it's not doing any cooling, it's just sat there at the same temperature. The only way to deal with this problem, and get the full potential out of this absolutely beautiful idea is with super high flow rates. And therefore silly pressures.
so it ought to stay at room temperatures and withstand loads even better then a traditional radiator? Since its fractally based, like i said you can scale it up or down to what ever size you wanted or what ever amount of tubes you wanted, I think i just overshot the size in the traditional concept. If a few inches worth of copper is all you need, then you could do the math and come out with internal tubes that are 8" long that fit in a 2" heatsink assembly and come out with a copper tube that together would be several feet long in a extremely small package.
Quote:
And what do you do with this enormous amount of heat you extract? You're going to need a BIGASS radiator and that would preferably have some auxillary cooling too. Else, you're just pulling all that heat out, and dumping it straight back into the system!
This assembly is the radiator. It'd have large fins sticking off all the sides like the radiator in the pictures above, It'd also sit OUTSIDE the computer chassis under a table, in your fridge, sitting in a bucket of ice or what ever you wanted to. You could even attach fans to it like a classic radiator.
If you look at the 2nd diagram you'll notice that a smaller fractal radiator is put after the res and single pump.
and after some digging it seems zalman (the company you all love so much as you've all song there praises about radiator design before) has almost duplicated my radiator to a T outside the fact that they've kept with the traditional looping S design for the actual tube that travels through the radiator.
Instead of my series of nerd math semi interconnected/interleaving tubes that makes the most of surface area in as little of a package as possible.
I'm thinking now my fractal heatsink would actually be 1/3rd the size i originally thought i'd need to cool a system off.
07-03-2011, 12:22 PM
Twigsoffury
Re: Why Doesn't a Fractal Heatsink exist?
accidental double post.
07-03-2011, 12:40 PM
Twigsoffury
Re: Why Doesn't a Fractal Heatsink exist?
I think some of you don't exactly "know" what fractals are.
PBS made a totally awesome show explaining fractal geometry based from the various sets mandelbrot created. it'll totally blow your f@#king mind if you watch that show in its entirety. Mandelbrot had worked for THE most important computer industries world wide, He devised the fractal set that allowed packets to be transmitted via long distances with out error. he also came up with the fractal set that allows video games to be more then just a bunch of 2d squares.
remember "rescue on fractulus" the video game? that was the first game to take advantage of mandelbrots sets he created in the mid 1990's
Soon after that Consoles like the SNES and computer graphics started to become three dimensional.. You can thank him for pretty much any video game you've played in the past 20 years.
You can also thank him for most of the programming languages made today, and binary in and of itself and the central processor inside your computer.
Remember awhile back cell phones had huge antennas sticking off of them?
then all of a sudden the phones lost the antennas and then shortly after that they could recieve not only radio transmissions. But wireless blu-tooth GPS and other freqencies all similtaniously?
That is thanks to the fractal based antenna.
Quote:
A different and also useful attribute of some fractal element antennas is their self-scaling aspect. In 1999, it was discovered[9] that self-similarity was one of the underlying requirements to make antennas "invariant" (same radiation properties) at a number or range of frequencies. Previously, under Rumsey's Principle, it was believed that antennas had to be defined by angles for this to be true; the 1999 analysis, based on Maxwell's equations, showed this to be a subset of the more general set of self-similar conditions. Hence fractal antennas offer a closed-form and unique insight into a key aspect of electromagnetic phenomena. To wit: the invariance property of Maxwell's equations: this property being in keeping with the fundamental nature of Maxwell’s derivation and mathematical treatment of electromagnetic phenomena, and is further demonstrated by its complete harmony and integration with Einstein’s special theory of relativity.
(from wikipedia, link provided below)
Heres one
Why is it that antenna despite being 1x1 inch squared, is 300x stronger then the traditional straight antennas and can receive multiple signals at once?
Because stretched end to end that antenna is well over 10' foot long in multiple shapes and patterns, fractal geometry just says that you can break it in half, make a right angle, multiply it again and you'll have double the size in half the space. you can do this over and over and over and over and you'll get smaller and smaller and longer and longer. you can also change angles of the break and create several self repeating patterns.
Heres a quote from wikipedia
Quote:
A fractal antenna's response differs markedly from traditional antenna designs, in that it is capable of operating with good-to-excellent performance at many different frequencies simultaneously. Normally standard antennas have to be "cut" for the frequency for which they are to be used—and thus the standard antennas only work well at that frequency. This makes the fractal antenna an excellent design for wideband and multiband applications.
That PBS show can explain it a HELL of alot better then my arguably stupid a@# can though, they also cover fractal antennas in the show.
Well i had got to thinking, since fractals can give maximum efficiency of a given space and the current design of radiators have one single tube that makes a few lazy S curves through a radiator barely touching the cooling tube as a whole. ( dunno the math but i'd gamble to say its less then 50% of the tube attached to the actual physical radiator)
Why not multiply the amount of tubes 10 fold, break and angle the lines every so often so they interlace with each other, and have those tubes function as a heatsink in and of itself.... inside a radiator to gain maximum surface area with a heatsink.
This man single handedly change the face of the modern world and just about everyone has no idea who this man is.
So i basically figured that if he has had such a profound touch on electronics and how they operate and function... Why can't his mathmatics be applied to cooling electronics as well?
Damn... Wish i had AutoDesk CAD this would be a hell of a lot easier to explain if i could do it in the third dimension.
07-03-2011, 01:12 PM
Twigsoffury
Re: Why Doesn't a Fractal Heatsink exist?
Quote:
Originally Posted by dr.walrus
have you thought that maybe the massive increase in pressure and the massive amount of turbulence you're relying on for thermal conductivity would have a heating effect also?
water is just about physically impossible to compress outside of ridiculous pressures and turbulence actually helps with thermal conductivity (that whole opposing flows deal) after some research and a calculator it seems that higher pressures actually wouldn't be created. Only a higher velocity through the radiator.
Quote:
Turbulence is also created within the ERGOMAX tank to maintain an ideal environment for heat transfer.
turbulent water flow, like turbulent airflow, also reduces resistance to heat transfer. And, like fin geometry, it can become an important criterion for coil selection. Waterside turbulence can be created by metal ribbons or helical wires inside the tubes. Called turbulators, these devices create eddies as the water flows across them.
Both methods of improving the heat-transfer coefficient (increased velocity and turbulence) create higher pressure drops, which can mean additional fan or pump power.
So it sort of seems, that no real additional pressures would be created, the angles inside would be beneficial at agitating the water for a higher co-efficiency rating and mandelbrot might of been onto something.
This kind of tickled because its exactly the premise behind my radiator
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Any additional increase in heat-transfer capacity must be achieved by physically increasing the available surface area; that is, by:
Adding rows
Adding fins
Increasing the physical size of the coil.
(from website above)
I basiclly increased the amount of rows by over 200, the tubes in and of themselves are also fins, so jesus knows how many fins i've added over a tradtional style radiator.
And i didn't increase the physical size of the radiator.
07-03-2011, 01:43 PM
dr.walrus
Re: Why Doesn't a Fractal Heatsink exist?
Quote:
Originally Posted by Twigsoffury
Well hey now, traditional radiators function basically exactly the same as my radiator/heatsink,mines just got fractal tubes inside.
I'll give you that one
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Originally Posted by Twigsoffury
But maybe it would be a better idea to have all the hots enter one side and exit the other, I'd just worry about one side of the radiator getting hotter then the other, i've noticed on the radiators we use now, the first inch or two of the internal radiator tube is pretty damn warm. I was hoping to defeat that with the opposing flows.
And it would do that very well - but at the expense of a few degrees. owever, doesn't the copper itself and its own thermal performance minimise hot spots?
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Originally Posted by Twigsoffury
lol probably, but you know i'm just dreaming, so as long as its still in my head or on a piece of paper there won't be a pump failure lol
One motor, many rotors?
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Originally Posted by Twigsoffury
You sure?
I'm pretty good at pneumatics and when you use a reduction gate 120psi can be reduced to 60psi or less depending on the I/D of the hose. Majorbud has a butterfly glass optimizer that needs to function at 60psi, while the rest of the buildings pneumatics needs to function at 120psi so they use a fancy reduction gate to reduce the pressure, I'd guess worst case scenario i could use a reduction gate as well.
That would certainly do it
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Originally Posted by Twigsoffury
thats why you could disassemble it down to the individual tubes and blow them out with a hi-pressure pneumatic hose or just run a garden hose through withever tube was affected. the thing would slide out as a whole and be able to get disassembled like a lego house.
There are only two gaskets, one on each end to seal the manifold against the tubes. the tubes themselves would be fitted together like a giant tetris shape. because after all... tetris is just a fractal geometry game.
Ability to disassemble is at the cost of thermal performance, and vice vesa. Jus' sayin'...
Quote:
Originally Posted by Twigsoffury
so it ought to stay at room temperatures and withstand loads even better then a traditional radiator? Since its fractally based, like i said you can scale it up or down to what ever size you wanted or what ever amount of tubes you wanted, I think i just overshot the size in the traditional concept. If a few inches worth of copper is all you need, then you could do the math and come out with internal tubes that are 8" long that fit in a 2" heatsink assembly and come out with a copper tube that together would be several feet long in a extremely small package.
I suppose what I'm saying is, you're going to have some very long, narrow channels. So once the heat normalises between the liquid and the heatsink, you want it out as soon as possible. Once it's heated up, it will continue heating if it's not removed. So the very long channels are acting as a method to get the water extremely hot; and as such, to allow the heatsink to get extremely hot. And the only way to counter that is a very high flow rate.
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Originally Posted by Twigsoffury
This assembly is the radiator. It'd have large fins sticking off all the sides like the radiator in the pictures above, It'd also sit OUTSIDE the computer chassis under a table, in your fridge, sitting in a bucket of ice or what ever you wanted to. You could even attach fans to it like a classic radiator.
Those things are great. I think moving all the stuff outside the computer is great for leak prevention. Limiting the tubes coming in and out is a great idea.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Twigsoffury
I'm thinking now my fractal heatsink would actually be 1/3rd the size i originally thought i'd need to cool a system off.
It'd be tiny, but the manifold system might be enormous!
What I'm really getting at is this; in answer to your original question, you're right, there's certainly possibilities to improve our current radiator/heatsink designs using fractal mathematics. However, I think you've overcomplicated the issue somewhat! A quad loop system for a single component is going to be problematic, however you look at it.
07-03-2011, 01:53 PM
Twigsoffury
Re: Why Doesn't a Fractal Heatsink exist?
I sent this discussion to a few Physicists, waiting on a response!
They'll probably tell me im a idiot with a slim chance of "zomg your brillant"
07-03-2011, 02:11 PM
Twigsoffury
Re: Why Doesn't a Fractal Heatsink exist?
Quote:
Originally Posted by dr.walrus
I'll give you that one
Yay!
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And it would do that very well - but at the expense of a few degrees. owever, doesn't the copper itself and its own thermal performance minimise hot spots?
I'd guess so, maybe its time to watch science channel shows about copper and read some science articles to understand how copper works exactly?
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One motor, many rotors?
I'd almost wonder if a cork screw style pump would be best for this instead of the fan blade style pumps. just a theory though
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That would certainly do it
yay
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Ability to disassemble is at the cost of thermal performance, and vice vesa. Jus' sayin'...
i'm sure it would, but when i look at air cooled heatsinks. some of them heatpipes are just "touching" the radiator and not soldered at all. but yet they post the best temperatures.
I'd "Assume" that if i could actually sonic weld the pieces together, there wouldn't be much warping to the two sides that make up two panels that make a single "pipe" since not much heat is created from it. so that might let those hundred (or dozens depending on the scale) sammich' together rather tightly. and i'd kinda assume to that once you start shooting high velocity water jets through it, the panels would flex out and press against each other (thickness of the walls i'm thinking would be about 1/32nd of a inch thick.. or the size of a regualar radiator's fin)
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I suppose what I'm saying is, you're going to have some very long, narrow channels. So once the heat normalises between the liquid and the heatsink, you want it out as soon as possible. Once it's heated up, it will continue heating if it's not removed. So the very long channels are acting as a method to get the water extremely hot; and as such, to allow the heatsink to get extremely hot. And the only way to counter that is a very high flow rate.
sounds like over my head math, but i'm sure someone could calculate the physics involved and how long it would take water at such and such a temperature to return to room temps (supposed temp of the outer heatsink shell itself) in a given width and length of copper pipe.
now just take that copper pipe, use that math and make it fit in as small of a package as possible.
all in all i think you could even get away with the classic "single pipe" method that radiator use right now? Only... well "fractalize" it and make it touch as much of the radiator as physically possible.
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Those things are great. I think moving all the stuff outside the computer is great for leak prevention. Limiting the tubes coming in and out is a great idea.
lol i thought the same thing
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It'd be tiny, but the manifold system might be enormous!
probably, but man car intake manifolds can do a lot in a little space these days, i'm sure with revision the manifolds could get pretty slim.. hell just look the head for the Corsair H50 Vs the later revised Corsair H70.
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What I'm really getting at is this; in answer to your original question, you're right, there's certainly possibilities to improve our current radiator/heatsink designs using fractal mathematics. However, I think you've overcomplicated the issue somewhat! A quad loop system for a single component is going to be problematic, however you look at it.
Theres actually only two hoses running per device like a classic water cooling system that has independent loops (like one loop consisting of two hoses for the video card, and another for the proccessor) The four hoses in my design. But if you look at my buddies design its one single loop through the whole system so really you would only need the traditional One enter and one exit.
And FYI thanks for bouncing back responses to me! You never know how good or terrible something is unless you've got someone to hate on it for you so you think about it harder.
Patent Pending
07-03-2011, 02:31 PM
dr.walrus
Re: Why Doesn't a Fractal Heatsink exist?
Quote:
Originally Posted by Twigsoffury
water is just about physically impossible to compress outside of ridiculous pressures and turbulence actually helps with thermal conductivity (that whole opposing flows deal) after some research and a calculator it seems that higher pressures actually wouldn't be created. Only a higher velocity through the radiator.
...you can have pressure without compression?
Quote:
Originally Posted by Twigsoffury
...
Yes, turbulence totally aids thermal transfer. But it also causes heat in its own right. And at a certain scale, micro effects tend to overcome macro effects...
07-03-2011, 02:39 PM
dr.walrus
Re: Why Doesn't a Fractal Heatsink exist?
Quote:
Originally Posted by Twigsoffury
And FYI thanks for bouncing back responses to me! Y
Sure! Who knows if I'm right!
07-03-2011, 02:46 PM
Twigsoffury
Re: Why Doesn't a Fractal Heatsink exist?
Quote:
Originally Posted by dr.walrus
...you can have pressure without compression?
Yes, turbulence totally aids thermal transfer. But it also causes heat in its own right. And at a certain scale, micro effects tend to overcome macro effects...
read through that article i posted it sorta explains it better then i can, maybe you'll get more out of it then i do.
lots of these questions seem like things you'd need R&D to figure out.
07-03-2011, 06:21 PM
mDust
Re: Why Doesn't a Fractal Heatsink exist?
The problem I still see with this design, is the turbulence. Yeah, some turbulence is good for heat transfer, but you need to balance that with flow restriction (look at an EK waterblock, they figured out the balance long ago). The head pressure of most PC water cooling pumps simply isn't high enough to force water through a series of tubes that change direction dozens of times each. You would need a large, noisy, high-pressure industrial water pump to do so. The pressures needed for decent flow would likely not be held by the standard fittings and tubing (at least between the fractal cooler and pump). One way to remedy this, would be to have many, many shorter fractal tubes per device so the total 'area of flow' is at least a few times that of your water tubing. You could also round out any right or sharp angles...the simple change in flow direction will create more than enough turbulence for the desired performance increase while not over-burdening the pump too much.
Also, you've managed to increase thermal transfer from the water to the radiator by several times but you haven't increased the efficiency of thermal transfer from the radiator to the air at all. As you work from the heat source, to the waterblock, to the water, to the radiator, to the air, each segment must be able to absorb heat at a rate greater than or equal to the previous segment or else there is no point to any efficiency improvements anywhere in the entire system. You need huge air fins, insane airflow, ridiculously low air temps, or some radical redesign of that component as well.
07-03-2011, 06:44 PM
Twigsoffury
Re: Why Doesn't a Fractal Heatsink exist?
Quote:
Originally Posted by mDust
.
if cork screw pumps can force liquid concrete up 2,600 feet to the top of the burj dubai, i bet they can also force water through a foot or two long tube.
its how dams get water back up through the damn to the res lake
And super chargers get insane pressures.
I bet if you shrunk those designs down they'd be effective enough to push water through at reasonably acceptable noise levels.
the traditional blade inside a water pump looks kind of pussy after seeing corkscrew style pump blades. TBH.
And looks like you guys would need to get used to threaded fittings.
Have no idea why they already aren't using threaded fittings in PC cooling systems.
kind of obvious that they are going to leak regardless of the pressure when you look at the fitting from a face value.
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Also, you've managed to increase thermal transfer from the water to the radiator by several times but you haven't increased the efficiency of thermal transfer from the radiator to the air at all. As you work from the heat source, to the waterblock, to the water, to the radiator, to the air, each segment must be able to absorb heat at a rate greater than or equal to the previous segment or else there is no point to any efficiency improvements anywhere in the entire system. You need huge air fins, insane airflow, ridiculously low air temps, or some radical redesign of that component as well.
I sense someone just skimmed over my posts and then hit "Respond" and typed out some s@#t to attempt to make me feel bad.
07-03-2011, 06:53 PM
dr.walrus
Re: Why Doesn't a Fractal Heatsink exist?
What we're getting at is this: I don't want that anywhere near my computer!
07-03-2011, 07:00 PM
Twigsoffury
Re: Why Doesn't a Fractal Heatsink exist?
Quote:
Originally Posted by dr.walrus
What we're getting at is this: I don't want that anywhere near my computer!
well I'll take the plunge first with a old pentium 4 system.
now for the 50 grand for building it and fabricating everything.
obama is still handing out grants and free money for stupid purposes right?
07-04-2011, 01:05 AM
blaze15301
Re: Why Doesn't a Fractal Heatsink exist?
Quote:
Originally Posted by Twigsoffury
well I'll take the plunge first with a old pentium 4 system.
now for the 50 grand for building it and fabricating everything.
obama is still handing out grants and free money for stupid purposes right?
Why yes he is. Withe all the damn money we are saving from cancelling the shuttle program and all so more dead beats can stay living off the system.
07-04-2011, 07:55 AM
Oneslowz28
Re: Why Doesn't a Fractal Heatsink exist?
I have some photos from CES of a pretty radical water block design from Cooler Master. I need to see if its OK for me to post them. While its not a fractal, the surface area was more than tripled over traditional water blocks.
07-04-2011, 10:14 AM
Fuganater
Re: Why Doesn't a Fractal Heatsink exist?
Way too much thought has been put into this thread...
Just stating the obvious for everyone. :D
07-04-2011, 11:12 AM
mDust
Re: Why Doesn't a Fractal Heatsink exist?
Quote:
Originally Posted by Twigsoffury
if cork screw pumps can force liquid concrete up 2,600 feet to the top of the burj dubai, i bet they can also force water through a foot or two long tube.
Have no idea why they already aren't using threaded fittings in PC cooling systems.
I sense someone just skimmed over my posts and then hit "Respond" and typed out some s@#t to attempt to make me feel bad.
1) Exactly, you need an industrial pump...like I said.
2) Cost and difficulty of modification.
3) I've read everything you've posted and I've never skimmed over a post anywhere and then responded. I've also never attempted to make you feel bad. Like you said earlier, you need people to point out flaws so you can improve your idea. Stop feeling bad and make this damn thing work.
All I was saying there is that if your fractal cooler is absorbing 40x more heat from the water than a normal radiator, then the fins on the side need to be able to dump all of that heat (and more) into the air...which they are not going to do.
Let's say you leave the fins how they are:
The cpu will dump x watts/sec into the water block (a tiny fraction will dissipate into the air along the entire journey to the radiator, but it depends on temp differentials and other complicated variables, so we'll just ignore that), if the block cannot absorb that much heat, the cpu overheats. If it can, the block dumps x amount of heat into the water...you'd have to do something really terrible to the water in order for it to not be able to absorb that heat, so it's assumed that the water dumps x amount of heat into your fractal cooler. You've designed it so it can absorb much, much more heat than necessary...but when the heat starts to dump into the air fins on the side to dissipate into the air, the fins can only dissipate .5x/s. What happens is like a traffic jam. The temp difference between the fins and the interior of your fractal cooler becomes nil, and so does heat transfer. As the temp of the fractal cooler rises, it stops cooling the water effectively, which stops cooling the waterblock effectively, which stops cooling the cpu effectively. Even if the air fins can keep up and effectively dissipate the required amount of heat to cool the CPU, if it can't dissipate as much as your fractal cooler can absorb, then there is no point to improving any other part of the system.
Get designing and surprise me with something new and unexpected.
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Originally Posted by Fuganater
Way too much thought has been put into this thread...
There is no such thing as 'too much thought', it's rampant 'too little thought' that is dangerous...which describes most people nowadays.:(
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