x88x EV saga, v1.0: Honda E15 Magna

Well, I said I would post this, and I'll admit I did rather keep forgetting to...but here we are. ..and yes, I know v0.1 isn't working yet...I got motivated by a documentary on the TTXGP (Charge; great watch if you're a biker/techie/etc), and things just kind of fell into place, so I'm starting it sooner than I had originally planned.

So, on with the story.

A week ago last Sunday, I picked up an '85 Honda V30 Magna. It has a (suspected) thrown rod, so the engine isn't working at the moment, but other than that it's largely in good shape, despite sitting out in the weather for several months. Picked it up for $500 and ~3 hours of driving.

Now, I'll admit, I feel a little guilty tearing up this bike. I love the Honda V4's, and the V30 Magna in particular is a real pleasure to ride. 64HP V4 in a 400lb cruiser? Oh hells yes! Fortunately, the motor is locked up, so my guilt is ameliorated to a fair extent. ...and no, the bike in the background is definitely not an '85 VF700S Sabre that I fell in love with searching for a roller...definitely not...what an oddly specific question. :think: :whistler:

...anyways, what was I talking about? Oh yeah, the bike.

So, what am I doing to this jewel of the '80's, you may ask? Very simple. I am ripping out that wonderful engine and putting in an (I believe) even more wonderful electric motor.

Enter the HPEVS AC-15.

Paired with the Curtis 1238-6501, at 108V and full throttle it puts out a solid 63 ft-lb of torque up to ~3750rpm before gradually falling off. More than twice the torque the C30 managed at its peak.

Motor is on order from a fellow elmoto.net forum member, and batteries will be on order shortly. ...what and from whom, I have not yet decided..but that's another story. :P

So, since I neglected to start this thread until I had been working on the bike for over a week (granted, intermittently), here's a bunch of pictures:

Fresh off the truck.

Fuel system and tail pulled.

Cooling system, carbs, instrument cluster, and controls pulled.

Basically, I'm stripping the bike bare and starting from a bare frame. I'll hopefully be pulling the engine this weekend, with Ichbin's help (you're welcome to stop by as well, Altec..or anyone else who feels like it). Once I have that pulled I can clean the frame and start measuring for battery boxes and mounts, motor mounts, etc.

As a side note, this is actually my first ever cross-posted thread. Also available at the below link, if anyone's interested in seeing a different perspective on it. Who knows, you might like what you see and stay. ;)
http://www.elmoto.net/showthread.php?2114-E15-Magna

what kind of range are you hoping to get with this?

Better question would be:

What is the average current draw of this motor at cruising speed?
And, how much pack storage are you going to fit into this build?

Range will depend heavily on those, plus the controller electronics (how good it is at regenerative braking) and how you drive it. But a ballpark number would be cool.

that's a little more exact than what i was wondering about. i was thinking more like 10 miles, 50 miles, 100 miles. a much broader range.

I like details.

Awesome, I love EVs. I'm actually working on a much smaller personal EV right now. I'm interested to see what kind of battery you will be using. I don't know your budget, but have you looked at LiFePO4 (Lithium Iron Phosphate)? They have high charge/discharge rates (especially the ones by A123 Systems), nearly the capacity of LiPo, but without the propensity to violently explode when punctured or overcharged. They are pretty expensive though.

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Originally Posted by xr4man

what kind of range are you hoping to get with this?

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75 miles at 80% DOD (DOD == Depth of Discharge, ie, 20% left or 20% SOC == State of Charge. Most lithium chemistries last much longer and behave much better if you don't take them below 20% SOC).

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Originally Posted by TLHarrell

What is the average current draw of this motor at cruising speed?

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Depends on the vehicle weight, aerodynamics, rolling resistance, etc, etc. I'm expecting an average of ~125Wh/mi though (more at high speed, less at low speed), and that seems to be pretty much standard with well done motorcycle conversions. The controller I'm using can put out a max of 550A at a max of 108V for as long as I can keep it cool enough to continue operating. Cruising though, I don't expect it to top 75A (est ~60A at 60mph).

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Originally Posted by TLHarrell

And, how much pack storage are you going to fit into this build?

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Currently looking at ~13kWh (108V 120Ah).

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Originally Posted by TLHarrell

Range will depend heavily on those, plus the controller electronics (how good it is at regenerative braking) and how you drive it. But a ballpark number would be cool.

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The motor and controller are quite good at regen. That being said, I'm not going to touch it. 90% of the braking is done with the front wheel on a motorcycle anyways, so imo there's no point in complicating matters.

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Originally Posted by Technochicken

Awesome, I love EVs. I'm actually working on a much smaller personal EV right now.

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Awesome! ...buildlog? :D Come on, I showed you mine, now you show me yours. :P

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Originally Posted by Technochicken

I'm interested to see what kind of battery you will be using. I don't know your budget, but have you looked at LiFePO4 (Lithium Iron Phosphate)? They have high charge/discharge rates (especially the ones by A123 Systems), nearly the capacity of LiPo, but without the propensity to violently explode when punctured or overcharged. They are pretty expensive though.

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Ah, the eternal battery debate.

Yes, I am quite familiar with LiFePO4 vs LiCo vs LiMn vs LiSNiWhateverTheHellPanasonicsNewCellsAre and all the pros and cons. I say this not to shut down any debate, just to say that yes, I am very aware of the available options. I've been spending the last year and a half learning what I can, where I can, and have amassed quite a bit of (theoretical and second hand) knowledge on the topic...a fact that is not always very helpful...

My original thought was to use the Sinopoly LFP60AHA (B) cells, since I do really like the idea of the large format prismatics. Unfortunately, when I went from my original idea for a frame ('82 Suzuki GS1100) to this, my available space decreased quite a bit. Fortunately, I like the smaller frame enough that I'm willing to work around that. Upon further inspection, I am not convinced that the Sinopoly cell will actually fit. Additionally, the quote I got from Sinopoly included a ~2 month lead/delivery time and my goal is to have this largely complete by May 5th for an electric motorcycle convention in NY. This sent me back to the drawing board.

With the need to decrease my volume without decreasing capacity, I was driven to one of two options:
1) Headway 40152S
2) Turnigy 8Ah 25C Nano-tech

What about A123 you ask? Well, let me ask you one thing. ...have you ever tried to actually buy A123 cells? The M20's, not the M1's...no way in hell am I sticking together 1,650 of those things... They're either a) extremely expensive (Mavizen) or b) difficult/time consuming to actually get ahold of (various back door Chinese retailers). And either one requires quite a bit of work assembling them into packs. So will the Headway or Turnigy cells, but not nearly as much work, I don't think.

So, looking at my options, I find:
1) Similar price point (Headways are a bit more expensive, but will likely cost a bit less in hardware building the pack).
2) Both will provide more than enough current.
3) Possibly similar charge cycles (distinct lack of hard data on the Turnigy's)...and let's be honest, even if I only got 400 cycles, 30k miles is a good long time on a motorcycle.
4) Turnigy's have ~30% greater energy density by volume and ~60% greater by weight. On a motorcycle, these are both huge factors to consider.

Why do I say the nano-tech's instead of the normal Turnigy cells? Because from what I hear their QC process is a lot stricter with the nano-tech's and they are a lot more stable and abuse-tolerant.

I'm leaning heavily towards the Turnigy's at the moment, but that is liable to change at any minute. :P I have read volumes on them, I have seen numerous stories of people using very large volumes of them for years without issue, I even have ~300Wh of the cheaper Turnigy 20C cells that I use to play around with scooters and stuff, and have had them for over a year with no issues. I still keep coming back to the horror stories though...and the idea of dropping $6k on them...and having them sitting between my legs going 60+mph... ...there's a very good chance that I'll end up going with them, but they still kinda freak me out...but hey, motorcycles are supposed to be dangerous, right? ...right?...

Incidentally, if you're interested in CCing various batteries, the below might be of use to you. I put it together after getting sick of running around to a zillion different websites every time I wanted to compare cells.
https://docs.google.com/spreadsheet/...Vloa3dreVlJeEE

Oh, and for TLHarrell, here's the power curve of the motor in question. This is at 72V, and I have it on good authority from people who have actually used and tested this motor (or similar models by the same manufacturer) that the modification with higher voltage is to just basically move the torque drop off out proportionately to the increase in voltage.

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What about A123 you ask? Well, let me ask you one thing. ...have you ever tried to actually buy A123 cells? The M20's, not the M1's...no way in hell am I sticking together 1,650 of those things... They're either a) extremely expensive (Mavizen) or b) difficult/time consuming to actually get ahold of (various back door Chinese retailers). And either one requires quite a bit of work assembling them into packs. So will the Headway or Turnigy cells, but not nearly as much work, I don't think.

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Good points. I've seen their cylindrical cells on Hobbyking, but they are 18$ per cell! I should be able to get my hands on some next year, though, as A123 is affiliated with the university I will be going to.

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Why do I say the nano-tech's instead of the normal Turnigy cells? Because from what I hear their QC process is a lot stricter with the nano-tech's and they are a lot more stable and abuse-tolerant.

Incidentally, if you're interested in CCing various batteries, the below might be of use to you. I put it together after getting sick of running around to a zillion different websites every time I wanted to compare cells.
https://docs.google.com/spreadsheet/...Vloa3dreVlJeEE

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Thanks for the spreadsheet, that will definitely come in handy! Good to know about the nano-techs as well. I've been leaning towards the regular Turnigy's, just because they are so cheap (relatively speaking), but I may have to reconsider.

My brother in law was building an EV conversion of a K-1 Attack kit car (Honda Accord donor engine usually). He ran on hard times and had to sell it when it was nearly complete. He was using an AC Propulsion drive and A123 cells, and hand assembling packs from individual cells. Might be worth looking up his worklog. Lots of good insight there.

More on the project here: K-1 Attack EV Conversion @ Attackforums

I learned a huge amount from him over the short vacations I've visited and had the chance to help out goofing off at his shop in Phoenix. I have a great interest in electric vehicles, but still sitting on the sidelines until the technology gets to where it needs to be. I'd really love to have an all electric bike. That flat power curve while accelerating is awesome and will surely be a kick in the butt to ride. Hope you're planning on putting some LEDs in that thing, or I may have to drop by and mod it.

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Originally Posted by Technochicken

Good points. I've seen their cylindrical cells on Hobbyking, but they are 18$ per cell! I should be able to get my hands on some next year, though, as A123 is affiliated with the university I will be going to.

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...aaaand, there you hit it on the head. ;) Through universities is how the majority of the interesting cells I see used are sourced. That being said, I do know a guy in China who builds M1 packs and sells them for, last I saw, ~$12/cell+shipping assembled. ..you know, if you get bored of getting them for free through your university. ;)
http://www.emissions-free.com/

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Originally Posted by Technochicken

Thanks for the spreadsheet, that will definitely come in handy! Good to know about the nano-techs as well. I've been leaning towards the regular Turnigy's, just because they are so cheap (relatively speaking), but I may have to reconsider.

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If you want info on using Turnigy batteries in small EVs (scooters, ebikes, etc), the best resource I know is the forum over at endless-sphere.com. Now let me temper that recommendation...make sure you've got your tin foil hat and fireproof shorts on and take anything said that isn't directly backed up by hard data/proof with a moderate sized grain of salt. There are a lot of very post-active people over there with no actual experience with the stuff they're talking about, just repeating second-hand information over and over, sometimes misinterpreted and/or misunderstood. ..I admit, for a little while I was one of them, until I realized wtf I was doing and shut the hell up... :P Once you dig through the piles of crap, though, and find the probably ~40-50% of the members who do actually do stuff and have first-hand knowledge and experience on what they're talking about, I don't think you'll find a larger group of people who have used those batteries for exactly the application you're talking about.

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Originally Posted by TLHarrell

My brother in law was building an EV conversion of a K-1 Attack kit car (Honda Accord donor engine usually). He ran on hard times and had to sell it when it was nearly complete. He was using an AC Propulsion drive and A123 cells, and hand assembling packs from individual cells. Might be worth looking up his worklog. Lots of good insight there.

More on the project here: K-1 Attack EV Conversion @ Attackforums

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Ouch! That's an expensive powertrain! And rare...AC Propulsion and A123 are both legendary in the EV community for basically telling DIYer to f*** off, we don't want your business...unfortunately, they're also known to make very nice products...really annoying combination, that...

I'll check out his log, see what he's got to say.

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Originally Posted by TLHarrell

I have a great interest in electric vehicles, but still sitting on the sidelines until the technology gets to where it needs to be.

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Out of curiosity, in your opinion, what is that point? Not being facetious, I'm honestly curious. A lot of people have very different requirements...and hey, we might be there already, you just don't know it yet. ;) Obviously they've passed the threshold of viability for me or I wouldn't be doing this project. :D I don't think I mentioned yet; this is to be my daily driver during the riding season. That's why I really need to get that range.

Ran into a bit of a problem dropping the engine. I had Ichbin helping me and we took the side frame piece out and got the engine free-floating, but cannot for the life of me figure out how to get it out of there... Problem is, since the engine is wider than the frame, even with that section out, it still needs to move to the side before it can get free...and it doesn't help that the mufflers are rusted on to the accumulator...I may end up just taking an angle grinder to the accumulator if I can't work it out; it's mostly rusted to hell anyways, so I'm not trying to salvage it and if chopping it up lets me get the engine out then chop away.

w00tz! Finally got the engine out!

I cut off the mufflers (rather, cut through the accumulator before the mufflers...mufflers are actually in decent shape), but still ended up having to drop the bike on its side to get the damn thing out. Finally out though, so it's all good. :D

Got measurements, now I just need to figure out what I can fit in there.

Ok...so, I ran some numbers, sized some stuff, and...LiFePO4 ain't gonna fit...even headways...damn.. Hmmm, well, I'd been playing with the idea of LiPo anyway, since it would cut ~100lb off the pack weight. I guess the frame made the decision for me. ...now to nail down how to do this without killing myself...

Please don't die. :P Nice naked frame you got there ;)

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Originally Posted by x88x

Awesome! ...buildlog? :D Come on, I showed you mine, now you show me yours. :P

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Here you go:

http://www.thebestcasescenario.com/f...306#post357306

Been off on ES for a bit, working out what I want to do with the batteries. I've come to peace with the batteries I'll be using (5S 20C 5Ah Turnigy packs), and am working on the battery module design.

From design thread there:


Ok, starting on actually designing the modules (intro here) for a ~11kWh lipo pack I am building for my electric motorcycle conversion. Pack will be 25S and at least 24P (as wide as I can make it, basically), constructed from a crapton of 5S 5Ah Turnigy lipo packs. These packs will be formed into 5 modules, each module being a load of packs in parallel. These 5 modules will then be connected in series to complete the pack. Each module will contain one of methods' LVC/HVC boards, managing the cells in the module.

I'll see what I can put together in sketchup tomorrow, but for the moment a text description will have to do.

Basically what I'm envisioning is 3 rows of packs, with a copper bus bar down each side, and one down between each border. Like so:

Each pack will be connected to the adjacent bus bars with ring terminals, and the leads shortened as much as possible to minimize the resistance between the pack and the bar. I'm currently thinking 3/16x3/4" copper bar for the bus bars. This should give me a conductor cross-section area of between 3/0 and 4/0, so I'm thinking that should be fine. ;) Currently thinking 2/0 for the inter-module links.

For the shell, I'm thinking some sort of high density plastic, held together with bolts. I ordered some 0.5" HDPE and some M6 socket flat head bolts to experiment with, so we'll see how that goes. In the mean time though, I wanted to put together a cheaper, lighter, easier to modify mock-up to get an idea for what I'm looking at. Enter foam-board.

I found an arts and crafts store near me today and went to pick some up. Found some nice 0.5" stuff for not unreasonably much, so picked up a few sheets of that to work with. Based on my measurements, I came up with this:
(turned out a little short, thus the little bit tacked on the end)

Pack in box:
(yes, I know it looks too wide; box is designed for 5S, that's a 6S)

I'm hoping to be able to cut a bit off the top; gonna pick up some aluminum bar tomorrow the see what I can work out.

Comments/concerns/recommendations/etc are welcome and appreciated.

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Since then, I have received the HDPE sheet I ordered....and realized how strong and tough the stuff is...and heavy...and placed a new order for a couple sheet of 1/4". Really nice material though; I'm sure I'll find something fun to do with it. :D

Oh, and the motor's on the way! :D :banana:

I hope you're planning to add some sort of over-current/short protection in your bus system. I'd hate to see a short with all the packs involved. That'd really ruin your day. No matter how careful you are, there's always some chance of an errant screw or a slipped tool that lands in just the wrong spot. Always good to engineer as much safety into a system like this as possible.

As for the HDPE, I'd keep the 1/2" stuff to hold the fasteners better. You can always rout out some of the material to lighten it up. Make a nice template in MDF and run a flush cut router bit, cut 3/8" deep.

I will be fusing the connection from the pack to the controller. I think I may also fuse each module, just to be on the safe side.

For the material, I'm going to see how well the 1/4" can hold threading. I may just replace some panels with it; not sure yet.

I came home from an Easter weekend with family today to find something fun waiting for me. :D

Gee, I wonder what's inside these boxes? One sure was heavy!

w00tz! Motor and controller! :D

The old and the new:

It's awesome to think that this little 46lb motor will generate more than twice the torque of that V4.

One thing I'm really quite excited about, once I have this done, is that since my dad actually has this exact same bike, I'll be able to do a side-by-side comparison of the VF500C engine vs the AC-15/6501 I'm putting in it; see how the reality compares to the numbers. ;)

EDIT:
After discussing the above graphs with Ichbin, I should note that the points where the torque levels are at 0 does not mean that there is 0 torque (and thus power) generated at that point; that just means I didn't have any numbers for those RPM ranges.

I finally got my credit card yesterday, so I was able to start ordering parts in earnest.

So I have some good news and some bad news with regards to the batteries...

Good news is I placed several very large orders on Hobbyking for batteries. :D (They only let you order a certain weight in one order.)

Bad news is I wasn't able to place as many orders as I wanted to. :( They ran out of packs...and they don't have any in stock at their Hong Kong warehouse either...so if anybody wanted to buy 5Ah 5S Turnigy 20C packs, you're out of luck.. :whistler:

Ah well, I was able to get 57 packs (was trying to get 150), so I should be able to get a ~30 mile pack until the get more in stock. And these are pretty popular packs, so hopefully that won't be very long.

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Originally Posted by x88x

so if anybody wanted to buy 5Ah 5S Turnigy 20C packs, you're out of luck.. :whistler:

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I guess I may need to reconsider my battery choices...

I'm interested to see how you fabricate the motor supports and assembly. Are you planning on getting a motor bracket sourced somewhere, or building it yourself?

Hahaha, they still have Zippy's if those are ok. I know the Turnigy's have a bit lower iR, which is why I picked them. Also, like I said, they're very popular packs, so I would expect them to restock fairly quickly. Plus, the fact that they're also out of them at their Hong Kong warehouse tells me that they've probably already started at least gearing up for another production run.

Planning on doing the mounts myself out of 1/2" 6061. Will mock some up soon with that 1/2" HDPE to figure out how much I'll need.

Came home last night to a nice big package waiting for me. :D

What could it be?

All in their own little boxes.

And out. That pile will represent one module once I am able to order all that I need.

I have to say, while they're not quite as compact as my 6S Zippys (the 6S Zippys are only ~1/8-3/16" thicker than these 5S Turnigys), they do feel better constructed. Little things, mainly. Thin foam padding on the ends instead of just fiber-tape, nicer wire hookups (especially on the balance leads), etc.

Looks like enough packs to run a laptop for a reasonable amount of time... with quad SLI. Can't wait to see them located in the frame.

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Originally Posted by TLHarrell

Looks like enough packs to run a laptop for a reasonable amount of time... with quad SLI.

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Well, considering that my laptop's battery is 48Wh and that is 2.5kWh... :twisted: Yeah, it'd run a laptop for a while. :D

5x capacity battery???

That would be 52x the capacity. It's kind of scary to think that those batteries together could discharge about 50 kw continuously...

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Originally Posted by Technochicken

That would be 52x the capacity. It's kind of scary to think that those batteries together could discharge about 50 kw continuously...

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Theoretically 75kW, actually. ;) 20-30C. Of course, if I actually took it to 30C there would be a large voltage drop (so wouldn't actually be 75kW) and it would severely shorten the cycle life....and it would completely drain it in 2 minutes...if it didn't burst into flames first.. :whistler:

But yeah, it is kinda crazy to think about the potential. You want crazy though? Once it's complete, the whole pack would theoretically be capable of a burst discharge of up to almost 375kW!

For craziness with lipo though, check out this build. 20kWh of this lipo in a Mazda MX-5 with a 300kW controller/motor combo! :twisted:
http://endless-sphere.com/forums/vie...p?f=34&t=38171

For context for the petrol-heads in the audience, 1HP == 746W, so 300kW ~= 400HP. :twisted: ...in a 2,000lb car....with 400+ ft-lb of torque from 0RPM... :twisted:

Now, let's see how fast, and how far, you can go with this thing....

Yeah, the hard part on an EV with this much power availability is putting the torque to the pavement. Lots of time playing with torque curves for the controller. My brother in law built his son an electric go-kart that is the envy of the neighborhood. Capable of standing itself vertical on takeoff. He dialed the controller way, way down and it's still a widowmaker. Cool stuff.

Heheh, nice, do you know what motor/controller he put in it TLHarrell?

Speaking of motor, I started on the motor mount prototype tonight. I told you I would find something to do with that 1/2" HDPE. ;) That stuff really is a pleasure to work with. Got a first go mocked up.

Lined up pretty well.

Obviously I don't want to wind that motor up on the HDPE mount, but it's plenty strong enough to help me nail down design and dimensions.

Golf cart motor and controller, no idea about the pack he was using. Frame was all hand built from square tube.

Try to keep as much of the weight as low as possible (but you know this).

Been a while since I've been able to update on this; got stuck working 5 days straight of 12 hour shifts....not fun...

So, updates.. Got my Powerlab in; that thing is serious nice...even if it wasn't obvious that it needed to be running off a battery to discharge more than 100W. -_^

I also got the rest of the batteries (for now). 5kWh of yummy, yummy, lipo. :twisted:

Now the fun job of testing all of them. They ship at 50% charge, so I have to charge them up, balancing, and then switch Powerlab profiles and run through two cycles of 40A (8C) discharge, 10A (2C) charge. All told it takes about 80 minutes each. Well, three down, 52 to go... :dead:

My test setup:

Got just about everything else I need for the build coming in the mail; I just need to get the motor brackets sorted out...

Well, it's been a while, but I finally have some exciting updates! :D

I finally finished testing all the battery packs for phase 1 (ie, smaller pack while I wait for them to re-stock the US warehouse)! And a beautiful sight it is too. :D

I ended up being 3 packs short, so I did break down and order 6 from the Hong Kong warehouse...shipping came to almost half what I paid in shipping for each of the 27-cell shipments from the US warehouse! O_O

So, now that I finally know how many I have to work with in this pack, I started working on the battery box. I tweaked my initial design a bit after experimenting with the plastic-only construction...was just too hard to make and not quite strong enough for my liking. So I I went with 1/16"x3/4" aluminum angle for the corners. Bolts go through the alu and thread into the plastic. Seems to be holding together nicely...I do need to get myself a real M4 tap though; the 8-32 I'm using is close, but not quite there. Good enough for a prototype though. :D

I've already found some points I need to address...needs to be about an inch taller to start... Oh well, the materials are relatively cheap, and this is why we make prototypes, neh? :D Does look pretty sweet though, if I do say so myself. :D

Still waiting on the motor adapter and rear sprocket, and still working on finalizing the battery box design, but I got some mockups put together for the battery boxes and got them put in place on the bike.

The Controller will go on top under the tank. The charger will go under the seat...it will require some trimming of the heatsink, but it will fit. And the DC-DC is either going under the seat with the charger or under the tank with the controller...depends where I have space.

I know, I know, 'But how are you going to fit 2.7x that capacity on the frame?' ...well, that's a good question...and that's a bridge I'll cross when I come to it...I am working on that though.

This is an awesome project!

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Originally Posted by x88x

I know, I know, 'But how are you going to fit 2.7x that capacity on the frame?' ...well, that's a good question...and that's a bridge I'll cross when I come to it...I am working on that though.

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Astronaut suit with backpack. You want to look futuristic riding this or what? It's the only way.

Can you turn the two middle packs parallel with the bike and drop them in side by side? Then another two on top of them and then one or two where the top pack currently sits. I'm not sure of the exact dimensions of the packs though, so this might be a wrong estimation.

That's a lot of batteries! 2.7x more?..:think:Trailer?

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Originally Posted by x88x

I know, I know, 'But how are you going to fit 2.7x that capacity on the frame?' ...well, that's a good question...and that's a bridge I'll cross when I come to it...I am working on that though.

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Two words - hardside saddlebags.