The Canyon That God Built?

alright i found this through the grapevine obviously because im into geology. i just cant let this one slide. check it out.

http://www.peer.org/news/news_id.php?row_id=801

so im all for freedom of speech, thought, belief, and all that jazz. this, however, is beyond anything sensible. this is beliefs being imposed on others, and worst of all its by government officials. what happened to separation of church and state?

what really gets me is the fact that a book was written stating that Noah's Flood made the grand canyon. someone who knows the bible help me out here... if im not mistaken, Noah didnt make the flood, he just survived it, and supposedly made a nice little boat to do that which was named after him (dont even get me started on that one... the sheer mass of all the animals on that boat is insane... at least 5 tons of beetles alone). not to mention the erosional forces involved in this. it rains for longer periods of time in certain places of the world, and you dont see canyons popping up everywhere... it just CANT happen in 40 days and 40 nights... water doesnt have that much power in it. if it did... all the land in the world would have been worn down to sand by now and ill bet there actually wouldnt be any land left.

anyways... i dont know about you guys, but i find this sickening. i dont do much protesting, but this has got me amazed and angry. theres just something about being told what to believe that doesnt agree with me... oh ya, thats because its WRONG!

Another thing that caught my attention is the fact that during the time of noah, north america hadnt even been discovered yet.


P.S. Noah's flood was an pre ice age melting of the polar caps resulting in raised sea levels. That much is clear.

Speaking of North America being discovered. One thing I've always wondered, is during the time when all of the Bible stuff was going on, what was happening in the other parts of the world? Such as North America. There were still people there when all of this stuff was supposed to be happening. What about them?

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Originally Posted by DaJe

Speaking of North America being discovered. One thing I've always wondered, is during the time when all of the Bible stuff was going on, what was happening in the other parts of the world? Such as North America. There were still people there when all of this stuff was supposed to be happening. What about them?

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Sshhh don't let it out that other people existed on the entire planet during that time.

The flood was inevitable. We've had about 6 ice ages that we know of. I dont think it would take to much to determin from records that another one was on its way.

Another misconception is that if the ice caps melted that there would only be a hand full of mountain peeks above water. Epic flood anyone? Actually it isnt true, The ocean levels would only rise about 80ft or so. It would be a real hasstle and would displace billions of people but there would still be lots of land.

On another note:
If any of you want to learn about global warming, Look for Al Gore's movie "The Inconvient Truth"

[edit]
SnowFire:
You cant prove science any more than you can prove god. There was a time when scientists believed the earth was flat. That was disproved, so can anything we NOW believe to be true.

Wait, what happened to that other post that was above Cana-Balsitic's?

Can someone just lock this before someone gets into a Religion vs science argurment

i dont think that is going to happen. i hope it doesnt, because i didnt intend for this thread to get out of control. if i see it getting messed up ill do something about it.

First thing, it being God's flood when they call it Noah's flood is a matter of semantics.

Second, it has recently been proven that Noah could, in fact, have been able to build a boat capable of holding all the creatures of the earth. He would have room to hold two of all the non-edible kind and eight of the food kind.

Third, the last major ice age predates modern humans. We came later, and so did Noah. The flood of Noah's day, the one that geologists are saying carved the grand canyon, was caused by something else.

Fourth, water has incredible power. A water jet can cut one inch+ thick metal. Surely billions of gallons of water flowing over the land could carve out a canyon. Certainly there are some rocks that will last longer than others when punished in the same way, and I'm not a scientist, but scientists have gone to school, done their research, and have come to a conclusion based that school and research. For a bunch of computer enthusiasts to argue it in a computer forum is a little silly.

Finally, odds are that the geologists use the term "Noah's flood" as a way of dating when the canyon was carved that most people in the US will relate to, and are not trying to say that Noah existed and that Christianity is the truth that all must embrace.

Creationism has been proven wrong time and time again. It has no place in any realm of science. Theology isn't science.

As for this specific topic, to anyone who knows small parts of geology understands that the minerals the grand canyon is made out of can't be cut by massive flooding or ice drift. Neither can do such a deep cut in a short period of time on such hard material.

There are modeled experiments that can be done to show how the grand canyon was formed. Just like there are experiments to show how natural selection works to fuel evolution. There are scientific ways to debunk bull****, which is what this is.

This is what happens when you have fundamentalists running the show. It's there way or heresy.

"Geysers of Old Faithful: Nostrils of Satan" HAHA. I want to see that book. That would be a good laugh.

well we geologists (and i say WE because i am going to school for geology) sure as hell dont call it noah's flood. it wasnt a flood that made the grand canyon anyways. it was a river.

yes, water is a damn strong force, but only under certain circumstances. if you pressurize it, yes it can cut metal, but rivers dont flow at 500psi. the strongest force is something called cavitation which is basically air bubble bursting with tremedous force in waterfalls. this is what is acting on the bottom of the niagra falls. given time (time meaning many millenia at least because the geological time scale usually deals with millions of years) all this will cut a canyon, but a flood means nothing when you're dealing with large rivers. there are already huge amounts of water flowing though the grand canyon, and yet there are no visible changes from day to day. in fact its widely accepted that the grand canyon is about... 5 million years old based on the fossil records.

anyways this HAS kind of gotten away from what i was trying to say. i wasnt trying to turn this into a debate about religion or anything like that. i was trying to point out how stupid it is that the government is doing exactly what it is supposed to prevent in this case. i mean... the whole "accommodating creationists" argument aside, whats in the constitution? freedom of speech for one thing. at the very least this issue about the grand canyon is unconstitutional and im amazed that we havent seen a real **** storm about it yet.

<EDIT> you posted while i was typing, nil8. just so you know, ice can do some damage. ice is what formed the nice jagged mountains up here (like the rocky mountains). the only thing is that the grand canyon is sandstone so if a glacier came through there, everything would be wiped clean, no canyons.

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Originally Posted by Cana-Balsitic

You cant prove science any more than you can prove god. There was a time when scientists believed the earth was flat. That was disproved, so can anything we NOW believe to be true.

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You know, that is very true. So why can't we all just play nice? Do some people really believe that there is one way and only one way? Why? For me, I guess, I would say that the only thing that has truly been proven is that we are usually not entirely correct if not completely off. These people are supposed to be really smart right? So...idk? Isn't it true that we are usually, at the least, off in what we believe? Such as the world being flat for example...

My Final statement in this thread.

What gets us into trouble is not what we dont know.
It's what we know for sure that just ain't so.
-Mark Twain

Sorry for the double post. I know i said it was my last.

I thought what D_Stilgar said was a little odd. So i did some research.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Human#Evolution

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Originally Posted by wiki

Anatomically modern humans appear in the fossil record in Africa about 130,000 years ago

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http://www.pbs.org/wgbh/nova/ice/chill.html

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Originally Posted by PBS

The most recent period of glaciation, which many people think of as the "Ice Age", was at its height approximately 20,000 years ago.

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http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cave_painting

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Originally Posted by wiki

The choice of subject matter can indicate date such as the reindeer at the Spanish cave of Cueva de las Monedas which imply the art is from the last Ice Age. The oldest cave is that of Chauvet, and is 32,000 years old.

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There have been 7 ice ages in the last 650,000 years according to scientific studies of the antarctic ice sheets.

Obviously, that many freeze/thaw periods could erode enough material to form the grand canyon. Another thing to note is that evidence of thies changes would be more apparent to earlier civilizations. Which could predict an ice age melting resulting in a flood.

As for Noah:
http://www.answersingenesis.org/tj/v8/i1/noah.asp

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Originally Posted by AnswersInGenesis

According to the Bible (Genesis 6:15), the length of the Ark was 300 cubits, the breadth of it was 50 cubits, and the height of it was 30 cubits. A cubit is known to be the distance between a man’s elbow and finger-tip. To decide the actual size of the Ark, a cubit had to be defined in terms of a modern unit. Scott7 collected the existing data about cubits around the Middle East area, and we adopted the common cubit (1 cubit = 17.5 inches) to approximate the size of the Ark. In modern units, the Ark was approximately 135m long, 22.5m wide and 13.5m high.

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The apparent size of the ship according to the bible doesnt have enough space for all the animals it supposedly was able to hold.

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Originally Posted by Slug Toy

<EDIT> you posted while i was typing, nil8. just so you know, ice can do some damage. ice is what formed the nice jagged mountains up here (like the rocky mountains). the only thing is that the grand canyon is sandstone so if a glacier came through there, everything would be wiped clean, no canyons.

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Ice sheets formed parts of the midwest US as well.At least that's what I was told in high school. If I remember correctly, almost all of Iowa was formed by a sliding ice sheet.

What I was trying to say without being specific is that under the sandstone is limestone and schist, which are much harder to remove with either water, ice or erosion. It's still a beautiful canyon.

About the water cutting rock, Slug is completely correct. You're talking about pressure that is unbelievable and insanely controlled. A firehose that release 300 gal/min feels like a steady stream of punches and can bruise. Water under controlled pressure is an amazing force, but a flood isn't that.

My argument on the water was just a way of saying that water, in fact, can cut stone. Not that one flood cut the grand canyon.

I just watched a show on the science channel about the ark. At the end, a skeptical ship builder and engineer and zoologist reviewed one man's research and found that Noah's ark was possible.

On what I said about modern humans, I was wrong. Anatomically correct human remains have been found dating back to 130,000 years ago. I've been watching "Walking with Cavemen" a lot recently and must have gotten my dates mixed up. Still, the history of modern men (by which I mean written language, not cave paintings, and where we moved from a nomadic people to using agricultire) is still only about 12,000 years old. That is pretty short.

I am not trying to argue the validity of the book published. I've always been told that the grand canyon was formed over millions of years by a river and I still believe that. But I also do not like people saying that things areimpossible. We have barely surpassed 100 years of flight, lets not rip on someone for believing something different. On that, if you want to see something that I think is complete garbage, google "age of earth". I had a roomate who believed that the earth is only 6000 years old. I completely think that is bull, yet I do not know everything, and there is no way you will win that argument, so I let him be.

I was mearly correcting the facts. Not that it was aimed at you in peticular.

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Originally Posted by Cana-Balsitic

I was mearly correcting the facts. Not that it was aimed at you in peticular.

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No offense taken, and I admit when I'm wrong. I'm not going to be so proud to deny becoming smarter.;)

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Originally Posted by d_stilgar

On what I said about modern humans, I was wrong. Anatomically correct human remains have been found dating back to 130,000 years ago. I've been watching "Walking with Cavemen" a lot recently and must have gotten my dates mixed up. Still, the history of modern men (by which I mean written language, not cave paintings, and where we moved from a nomadic people to using agricultire) is still only about 12,000 years old. That is pretty short.

I am not trying to argue the validity of the book published. I've always been told that the grand canyon was formed over millions of years by a river and I still believe that. But I also do not like people saying that things areimpossible. We have barely surpassed 100 years of flight, lets not rip on someone for believing something different. On that, if you want to see something that I think is complete garbage, google "age of earth". I had a roomate who believed that the earth is only 6000 years old. I completely think that is bull, yet I do not know everything, and there is no way you will win that argument, so I let him be.

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Walking with Cavemen is a really good documentary. Interesting stuff.
Humanity in the scope of the Earth's existence is a very short period of time. Civilized existence is a speck of time.

Things can be impossible. If all our current data points towards something not being possible, and incoming data continues to reinforce this, then it's probably not possible. Until it is objectively proven that it occurred or is possible, then it is called impossible. An easy example is you can't break the Earth's gravity by jumping. No human being can jump with his legs and feet fast enough or far enough to break gravity. It's impossible.

As for the past century, we've had more advancement in the past 100 years than humans have ever experienced before. The one thing that is still dragging behind is social behaviors and judgments. There's a quote I like to use in this debate(I debate a lot), it's by Robert Heinlein,"One man's mysticism is another man's engineering. Supernatural is a null term."

As for the age of earth nonsense, Bill Hicks definitely nailed it. "Explain dinosaurs.... You think somewhere in the Bible it would have been ****ing mentioned it. And oh, Jesus and his disciples walked to Nazareth. And oh, the path was blocked by a Brontosaurus with a splinter in his paw and the disciples did run around and exclaim "Oh what a big ****in' lizard lord!". But Jesus was unafraid and removed the splinter from the Brontosaurus paw and the big lizard became his friend. And Jesus sent him to Scotland where he lived in a loch for, oh so many years, inviting thousands of Americans families..."

Yea, it's meant to be comedy. Best comedian ever.

I'm not trying to pick on you stilgar. You're entitled to your ideas, as I am mine. Just trying to share my thoughts on the matter. Admitting your wrong is a good thing and making mistakes is often the best teacher because you forget your mistakes less than your successes.

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Can someone just lock this before someone gets into a Religion vs science argurment

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I tend to find that these things stay in the 'intelligent debate' category to be honest, i've never had to lock a thread for developing into a flame fest.

Keep it that way guys! ;)

-Dave

I never said that I believed what my roomate thought. I actually agree with you. How do you explain dinosaurs if the earth is only 6000 years old. But as much as we can say that science disproves it, I don't think knowledge can ever be completely solid. An example that has been said before, the earth is flat . . . boy were we wrong.

I personally am not going to limit my thought on what people say can or can't be done. I will never limit myself in that way. And yet, I am also not going to believe complete crap to be true when I'm 99.99% sure it isn't.

That said, I know where I stand in all this and there is no point arguing it any further.

The 6000 year thing is from the bible. Apparently (according to the great beyond) dinosaur fossils were put there to "test our faith"...

I believe the more scientific definition of 4.54 billion years and also that jesus was put here to test our faith of the scientific.

Glass half empty vs half full.

little fyi; Not everyone believed that the world was flat. This was misinformation promulgated by the church. You believe them or... well, die! This is the same church that would put people to death for believing that the solar system did NOT revolve around the earth, in fact it was the churches belief that _everything_ revolved around the earth and the earth was flat to boot.

If it comes out of a religious tome I would tend NOT to take it at face value. I took some religious theory classes many moons ago and was told this by _most_ of my professors (who are Jesuit priests). Most of them did not think the bible was factually correct, rather a "guideline" of events. It is the people that take the bible and other religious tomes as 100% fact that tend to be fanatics...

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Originally Posted by Airbozo

If it comes out of a religious tome I would tend NOT to take it at face value. I took some religious theory classes many moons ago and was told this by _most_ of my professors (who are Jesuit priests). Most of them did not think the bible was factually correct, rather a "guideline" of events. It is the people that take the bible and other religious tomes as 100% fact that tend to be fanatics...

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The reason the facts are misconstrued is because jesus never had a testament. He left it to james and the other deciples to create the testament's. Which is why we have so many off shutes of christianity. No one has the actual facts. Only the interpritation of the facts by the deciples.

Apparently judas had a testament aswell. I wonder what church destroyed that little tid bit of information. (please dont reply to the last sentence, that is mearly my interpritation)

I know you didn't want a reply, but...
http://www.earlychristianwritings.com/gospeljudas.html

Yes there is a gospel according to Judas testament, found in 1994 by Russian archaeologists. Not read anything about it, but yes it does exist.

Interpretation is why there are so many off-chutes of ANY religion. You would think that if there was a god and he/she/it wanted us to worship them, there would be no confusion as to HOW to worship them or what religion was correct (Uhm Morman, Morman is the correct answer, sorry Jerry Falwell). You would also think that with the redphone to the creator, that little things like flat earth, planet revolution, witches would have been taken care of a little better by previous pope's and other spiritual leaders. I mean who in their right mind would argue that the Spanish Inquisition was from god and not man?

Man invented God(s) to explain what they could not.
Man invented religion to control other men.

Whenever I hear the name of Jerry Falwell, I think "mega-church". What a laugh...

Don't mormons like worship seagulls and believe jesus was a cowboy or something? lol don't ask where I get my facts, I just make them up as I go along ...wait, that kind of sounds like religion! :dead:

"Man invented God(s) to explain what they could not.
Man invented religion to control other men."

I still believe in the possibility of a higher being or whatever, but I couldn't agree with you more there. especially the second part. Makes me think of early Catholicism.

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Originally Posted by SnowFire

Don't mormons like worship seagulls and believe jesus was a cowboy or something? lol don't ask where I get my facts, I just make them up as I go along ...wait, that kind of sounds like religion! :dead:

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Less than two minutes of research . . .
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Seagull_Monument

Wait, that's true? That's freakin hilarious!

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Which is why we have so many off shutes of christianity

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Interpretation is why there are so many off-chutes of ANY religion.

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for the record, the word is off-shoots.

-Dave

you know what ive just realized? every thread like this one so far has boiled down to a debate about religion. just once id like to have a discussion about volcanogenic massive sulphide exhalites, or sedimentary processes.

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volcanogenic massive sulphide exhalites, or sedimentary processes.

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Yeah...what now? :s

-Dave

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Originally Posted by Slug Toy

you know what ive just realized? every thread like this one so far has boiled down to a debate about religion. just once id like to have a discussion about volcanogenic massive sulphide exhalites, or sedimentary processes.

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That would probably be a lonely conversation...

SnowFire: I also would like to believe in a higher being, but so far the evidence just doesn't add up. I am still holding out though. I really don't think any of the organized religions have it right. To much violence and anger in most of the worlds religions for me.

My wife was raised Catholic and most of her family still does the stand up, sit down, kneel, routine... She does not. Her grandmother was appalled that we got married outside on Catalina Island until we reminded her that outside is gods church. She ate it up. Religious conversations clear the table in her family faster than the political conversations (which they encourage).

SlugToy: One of my best friends dad is a geologist. Now retired, but he plans several trips each year to different geological formations (dessert, mountains, etc...). We have some of the best conversations after their trips... He is more geeky-excited about his rocks then any computer geek is about their computer.

Hey Slug Toy--in Genesis 7:11 it reads, "In the six hundredth year of Noah's life, on the seventeenth day of the second month—on that day all the springs of the great deep burst forth, and the floodgates of the heavens were opened."

That's where the Hydroplane theory comes from--they believe that when the waters 'burst forth', places like the Grand Canyon, Mariana's Trench, and the Mid-Atlantic Ridge were created.

That much water could drastically change the world's shape, especially if it was shooting out at speeds faster than any rocket we could build. Plus, with water falling down from the heavens--not from clouds but a canopy of water so to speak, it is possible.

Plus, if you believe in God, and I do, and I'm not imposing here, then it's easy to believe that an all-powerful being could change the shape of the world, even with the tiniest amount of water.

Also, 2 of every kind isn't necessarily EVERY species--you could take 2 dogs, which would separate into all the different breeds after the flood, same with cats, or any animal of the like...etc...and I believe that this may also explain dinosaurs being extinct, so Noah wouldn't have to deal with their weight...bit of dry humor there for ya.

Hope the bible passage helped--again, I'm not imposing, and you were asking for someone to explain it biblically.

Also, check out Answers in Genesis--these are Biblical scholars and scientists, including Geologists who answer questions like this thread.

Here's their Q&A page. http://www.answersingenesis.org/home/area/qa.asp

Airbozo--the confusion in religion isn't God's fault--Satan confuses it, and, come to think of it, the biggest religion in the world is Christianity, which to me shows us that God is saying, "Hey, worship me."

Enough chat from me in this post--if you want answers, you may look to the Bible, and you may find something. I did. Maybe not. Some don't find what they look for. Yet, it doesn't hurt to try, right?

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Originally Posted by DaveW

Wait, that's true? That's freakin hilarious!
-Dave

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I think I was trying to show that it is false. The statue is a historical monument, not an idol.

Yeah, I don't think they are worshiping the seagull. Its more like a memorial.

If you have ever been to the ocean, you notice huge flocks of seagulls. What do they do? They go where the food is. Especially when the crabs are in the shallow water! GEESH! I've never seen so many in my life! lol

So I wouldn't call this event a "miracle". It's more like the seagulls were at the right place at the right time and decided to fill their gluttonous bellies because thats what they do.

I've actually been to Salt Lake City, but I don't remember seeing the seagull monument. I do remember seeing the founder of their religion HIGH up on a point of one of the buildings. I think he is gold? Maybe bronze? But if you haven't been there, and you are close enough to make a trip, I say do it. I could care less about their contradicting religion, but they have BEAUTIFUL buildings. The architecture is freaking awesome. ...just don't talk to the old ladies. They are freaking the MOST closed minded people I have ever had a conversation with in my entire freaking life. I mean, you can tell them the world is round and they would tell you the world is flat and then they would make sure that you couldn't say anything else about it. STUBBORN!!!! lol I feel better now.

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Originally Posted by jaxspades

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Airbozo--the confusion in religion isn't God's fault--Satan confuses it, and, come to think of it, the biggest religion in the world is Christianity, which to me shows us that God is saying, "Hey, worship me."

Enough chat from me in this post--if you want answers, you may look to the Bible, and you may find something. I did. Maybe not. Some don't find what they look for. Yet, it doesn't hurt to try, right?

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I absolutely HATE "the confusion is satans fault" answer. If some omnipotent being actually does exist, and did create man AND wanted us to worship it/she/he then there would be NO confusion as to what/who/where/when to worship. Anything else points to some omnipotent being that screwed something up and uses a fallen angel (another screw up...) to explain all the faults it/she/he made...

If the biggest religion IS Christianity, then why are there so many different sects of it? All those Christians cannot come to an agreement of how their god wants us to act and worship? All the priests and preachers argue about "how to be faithful" and what it means to be a christian? They are all using the same study guide and cannot agree on the contents... I thought they worshiped the same god?

Some of my favorite Frank Zappa quotes on this subject;
The whole foundation of Christianity is based on the idea that intellectualism is the work of the Devil. Remember the apple on the tree? Okay, it was the Tree of Knowledge. "You eat this apple, you're going to be as smart as God. We can't have that."
-- Frank Zappa

"Hey, let's get serious... God knows what he's doin' He wrote this book here And the book says: 'He made us all to be just like Him', So... If we're dumb... Then God is dumb... (And maybe even a little ugly on the side)"
- -Frank Zappa

and one not from Zappa;
"The philosopher has never killed any priests, whereas the priest has killed a great many philosophers."
-- Denis Diderot


Now all of this sounds like I hate religion or Christianity, but that is not true. I think that the bible was one of the best and worst things to happen to this planet. Imagine if everyone was an atheist, there would be no moral retribution for bad deeds so why would anyone show any restraint? The threat of burning in hell for eternity has probably had some effect on the actions of others...

BTW looking to the bible to answer questions in the bible does not seem logical to me...

Enough on the religion. I don't want to make this a religious war here. We are after all modders not apostles.

I think looking to the bible for answers to (most) bible questions makes sense.

Example: What book comes after Genesis? I look in the bible and I will find that it is Exodus.

I do understand your thinking though.

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Originally Posted by Airbozo

I absolutely HATE "the confusion is satans fault" answer. If some omnipotent being actually does exist, and did create man AND wanted us to worship it/she/he then there would be NO confusion as to what/who/where/when to worship. Anything else points to some omnipotent being that screwed something up and uses a fallen angel (another screw up...) to explain all the faults it/she/he made...

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What I don't understand is if god knows ALL, how did the whole fallen angel thing happen? ...unless of course he let it happen for a reason.

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Originally Posted by Airbozo

If the biggest religion IS Christianity, then why are there so many different sects of it? All those Christians cannot come to an agreement of how their god wants us to act and worship? All the priests and preachers argue about "how to be faithful" and what it means to be a christian? They are all using the same study guide and cannot agree on the contents... I thought they worshiped the same god?

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Simple answer. Human stupidity.

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Originally Posted by Airbozo

Some of my favorite Frank Zappa quotes on this subject;
The whole foundation of Christianity is based on the idea that intellectualism is the work of the Devil. Remember the apple on the tree? Okay, it was the Tree of Knowledge. "You eat this apple, you're going to be as smart as God. We can't have that."
-- Frank Zappa

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Hmmm, why did god not want them to eat the apple? Well I guess it makes sense if you think of it as before and after. Before they were happy and pretty oblivious to everything. After, they weren't so happy and they had to endure the pains of the world. So.... god being like a good father, did not want his children to suffer.

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Originally Posted by Airbozo

"Hey, let's get serious... God knows what he's doin' He wrote this book here And the book says: 'He made us all to be just like Him', So... If we're dumb... Then God is dumb... (And maybe even a little ugly on the side)"
- -Frank Zappa

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I still don't understand what is meant when "god" says we are made after him. I thought god didn't have a form or shape that was comprehendable? Well, then again in the bible it does say something about this not being our "true forms". More like vessels?

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Originally Posted by Airbozo

and one not from Zappa;
"The philosopher has never killed any priests, whereas the priest has killed a great many philosophers."
-- Denis Diderot

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I love that one. It's sad, because its true. The mass of people are stupid, while intelligent people are few and sit idly by while the mass destroys the world. < Thats what I say. It just means that stupid people rule the world. ....which is painfully obvious where ever you go.

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Originally Posted by Airbozo

Now all of this sounds like I hate religion or Christianity, but that is not true. I think that the bible was one of the best and worst things to happen to this planet. Imagine if everyone was an atheist, there would be no moral retribution for bad deeds so why would anyone show any restraint? The threat of burning in hell for eternity has probably had some effect on the actions of others...

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I completely agree.

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Originally Posted by Airbozo

BTW looking to the bible to answer questions in the bible does not seem logical to me...

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Again, I completely agree. It would make more sense to go back to the dead sea scrolls or whatever to answer questions in the bible. Oh wait, thats right, even the most intelligent people have a difficult time deciphering them. People back then thought completely different than how we do now. Thats what I think and thats why I don't, if not completely, believe in the bible. That and I haven't read any of the foundations of the bible so I can not believe that what I am reading has come from that which I have not read.

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Originally Posted by Airbozo

Enough on the religion. I don't want to make this a religious war here. We are after all modders not apostles.

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I don't think it is bad to discuss religion and our beliefs on it. Thats why you are not a closed minded fool isn't it Airbozo? Because you are open to other ideas aside from your own and are not afraid of being wrong? Thats how I feel at least. Just keep the flames of war down and don't say anything REALLY stupid and we shouldn't have problem. If you feel the urge to flame someone, like me haha, then just keep repeating to yourself to stay calm. ^^

Slug Toy: I'm sorry I do not know more about rocks. I do know that it is possible to have a pretty in depth discussion about them though. There is alot more than what meets the eye, archaeologists realize that I think.

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Originally Posted by SnowFire

I don't think it is bad to discuss religion and our beliefs on it. Thats why you are not a closed minded fool isn't it Airbozo? Because you are open to other ideas aside from your own and are not afraid of being wrong? Thats how I feel at least. Just keep the flames of war down and don't say anything REALLY stupid and we shouldn't have problem. If you feel the urge to flame someone, like me haha, then just keep repeating to yourself to stay calm. ^^

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Hehe, Spot on! I don't get into flame wars, in fact I rarely get angry enough to intentionally insult anyone (except that guy who shot at my house...). You are right, I try to keep an open mind about everything. I even have multiple takes on the "made in gods image" line from the bible, and several different twists on religion itself. We learn more by being wrong than being right. At least the lesson sticks better. IMHO conversations about religion go one of two ways: SHUT UP GODLESS HEATHEN! or That is an interesting take, how about this?

Sometimes I do say/type stupid things, but the beauty of a forum, is that you get to show _extra_ patience (and intelligence) by going back and re-reading your post before hitting the submit button. All of life should be like that.

I think it is entirely possible to believe in BOTH the THEORY of evolution AND creation.
I do NOT think the Grand Canyon was carved from water in the 40 day flood but since we went off on the little tangents about whether or not the ark was real or even possible, here's my .02

If you read the bible, there were only three requirements for the animals to be loaded on the ark. They had to be:
Air-breathing. Specifically it says "nostrils", more on that later.
Terrestrial (land-dwelling).
Of the same biblical kind.

The word species and the biblical word kind are often used interchangeably. But this is incorrect since they are not synonymous terms. The book of Genesis uses the word kind to denote an organism that reproduces others like itself. Since the species concept is much narrower, many species can be included in one single biblical “kind.” The term kind
is probably closer to the modern taxonomic classification of genus, and in some cases the larger taxonomic classification, family.
The Canidae (canine) family includes about 14 genera of dog-like animals. These include the dog, coyote, wolf, jackal, etc. The ark did not have to contain the hundreds of species of canines that make up this group because these were all represented by a few biblical “kind.” These “kind” would then produce all the animals that make up the Canidae family. For example, all of the hundreds of varieties of domestic pigeons that have been produced originated from one species, apparently the wild rock pigeon (Columbia livia).
The ark did not need to carry every species (possibly numbering in the millions) of animal. The ark was designed to carry only every biblical kind (numbering in the few thousands) of terrestrial, air-breathing animals.

God reiterates this point when He describes the kind of animals that perished during the Flood. These were specifically the type of animals that Noah was told to take on board the ark. “Every living thing that moved on the earth perished—birds, livestock, wild animals, all the creatures that swarm over the earth, and all mankind. Everything on dry land that had the breath of life in its nostrils died”

Millions of beetles thing? The Flood wiped out all land animals which breathed through nostrils except those on the Ark. Insects do not breathe through nostrils but through tiny tubes in their exterior skeleton.

It is evident, when all the facts are examined that there is no scientific evidence that the biblical account of Noah's ark is a myth or fable. The facts support the view that Noah's ark was large enough to carry the number of animals required to repopulate the earth after the flood and that Noah and his family were capable of caring for the animals during their time on the Ark.

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Originally Posted by Ironcat

I think it is entirely possible to believe in BOTH the THEORY of evolution AND creation.

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I completely agree.