The Canyon That God Built?

[Airbozo]

you know what ive just realized? every thread like this one so far has boiled down to a debate about religion. just once id like to have a discussion about volcanogenic massive sulphide exhalites, or sedimentary processes.

That would probably be a lonely conversation...

SnowFire: I also would like to believe in a higher being, but so far the evidence just doesn't add up. I am still holding out though. I really don't think any of the organized religions have it right. To much violence and anger in most of the worlds religions for me.

My wife was raised Catholic and most of her family still does the stand up, sit down, kneel, routine... She does not. Her grandmother was appalled that we got married outside on Catalina Island until we reminded her that outside is gods church. She ate it up. Religious conversations clear the table in her family faster than the political conversations (which they encourage).

SlugToy: One of my best friends dad is a geologist. Now retired, but he plans several trips each year to different geological formations (dessert, mountains, etc...). We have some of the best conversations after their trips... He is more geeky-excited about his rocks then any computer geek is about their computer.

[jaxspades]

Hey Slug Toy--in Genesis 7:11 it reads, "In the six hundredth year of Noah's life, on the seventeenth day of the second month—on that day all the springs of the great deep burst forth, and the floodgates of the heavens were opened."

That's where the Hydroplane theory comes from--they believe that when the waters 'burst forth', places like the Grand Canyon, Mariana's Trench, and the Mid-Atlantic Ridge were created.

That much water could drastically change the world's shape, especially if it was shooting out at speeds faster than any rocket we could build. Plus, with water falling down from the heavens--not from clouds but a canopy of water so to speak, it is possible.

Plus, if you believe in God, and I do, and I'm not imposing here, then it's easy to believe that an all-powerful being could change the shape of the world, even with the tiniest amount of water.

Also, 2 of every kind isn't necessarily EVERY species--you could take 2 dogs, which would separate into all the different breeds after the flood, same with cats, or any animal of the like...etc...and I believe that this may also explain dinosaurs being extinct, so Noah wouldn't have to deal with their weight...bit of dry humor there for ya.

Hope the bible passage helped--again, I'm not imposing, and you were asking for someone to explain it biblically.

Also, check out Answers in Genesis--these are Biblical scholars and scientists, including Geologists who answer questions like this thread.

Here's their Q&A page. http://www.answersingenesis.org/home/area/qa.asp

Airbozo--the confusion in religion isn't God's fault--Satan confuses it, and, come to think of it, the biggest religion in the world is Christianity, which to me shows us that God is saying, "Hey, worship me."

Enough chat from me in this post--if you want answers, you may look to the Bible, and you may find something. I did. Maybe not. Some don't find what they look for. Yet, it doesn't hurt to try, right?

[d_stilgar]

Wait, that's true? That's freakin hilarious!
-Dave

I think I was trying to show that it is false. The statue is a historical monument, not an idol.

[Zephik]

Yeah, I don't think they are worshiping the seagull. Its more like a memorial.

If you have ever been to the ocean, you notice huge flocks of seagulls. What do they do? They go where the food is. Especially when the crabs are in the shallow water! GEESH! I've never seen so many in my life! lol

So I wouldn't call this event a "miracle". It's more like the seagulls were at the right place at the right time and decided to fill their gluttonous bellies because thats what they do.

I've actually been to Salt Lake City, but I don't remember seeing the seagull monument. I do remember seeing the founder of their religion HIGH up on a point of one of the buildings. I think he is gold? Maybe bronze? But if you haven't been there, and you are close enough to make a trip, I say do it. I could care less about their contradicting religion, but they have BEAUTIFUL buildings. The architecture is freaking awesome. ...just don't talk to the old ladies. They are freaking the MOST closed minded people I have ever had a conversation with in my entire freaking life. I mean, you can tell them the world is round and they would tell you the world is flat and then they would make sure that you couldn't say anything else about it. STUBBORN!!!! lol I feel better now.

[Airbozo]

...

Airbozo--the confusion in religion isn't God's fault--Satan confuses it, and, come to think of it, the biggest religion in the world is Christianity, which to me shows us that God is saying, "Hey, worship me."

Enough chat from me in this post--if you want answers, you may look to the Bible, and you may find something. I did. Maybe not. Some don't find what they look for. Yet, it doesn't hurt to try, right?

I absolutely HATE "the confusion is satans fault" answer. If some omnipotent being actually does exist, and did create man AND wanted us to worship it/she/he then there would be NO confusion as to what/who/where/when to worship. Anything else points to some omnipotent being that screwed something up and uses a fallen angel (another screw up...) to explain all the faults it/she/he made...

If the biggest religion IS Christianity, then why are there so many different sects of it? All those Christians cannot come to an agreement of how their god wants us to act and worship? All the priests and preachers argue about "how to be faithful" and what it means to be a christian? They are all using the same study guide and cannot agree on the contents... I thought they worshiped the same god?

Some of my favorite Frank Zappa quotes on this subject;
The whole foundation of Christianity is based on the idea that intellectualism is the work of the Devil. Remember the apple on the tree? Okay, it was the Tree of Knowledge. "You eat this apple, you're going to be as smart as God. We can't have that."
-- Frank Zappa

"Hey, let's get serious... God knows what he's doin' He wrote this book here And the book says: 'He made us all to be just like Him', So... If we're dumb... Then God is dumb... (And maybe even a little ugly on the side)"
- -Frank Zappa

and one not from Zappa;
"The philosopher has never killed any priests, whereas the priest has killed a great many philosophers."
-- Denis Diderot


Now all of this sounds like I hate religion or Christianity, but that is not true. I think that the bible was one of the best and worst things to happen to this planet. Imagine if everyone was an atheist, there would be no moral retribution for bad deeds so why would anyone show any restraint? The threat of burning in hell for eternity has probably had some effect on the actions of others...

BTW looking to the bible to answer questions in the bible does not seem logical to me...

Enough on the religion. I don't want to make this a religious war here. We are after all modders not apostles.

[d_stilgar]

I think looking to the bible for answers to (most) bible questions makes sense.

Example: What book comes after Genesis? I look in the bible and I will find that it is Exodus.

I do understand your thinking though.

[Zephik]

I absolutely HATE "the confusion is satans fault" answer. If some omnipotent being actually does exist, and did create man AND wanted us to worship it/she/he then there would be NO confusion as to what/who/where/when to worship. Anything else points to some omnipotent being that screwed something up and uses a fallen angel (another screw up...) to explain all the faults it/she/he made...

What I don't understand is if god knows ALL, how did the whole fallen angel thing happen? ...unless of course he let it happen for a reason.

If the biggest religion IS Christianity, then why are there so many different sects of it? All those Christians cannot come to an agreement of how their god wants us to act and worship? All the priests and preachers argue about "how to be faithful" and what it means to be a christian? They are all using the same study guide and cannot agree on the contents... I thought they worshiped the same god?

Simple answer. Human stupidity.

Some of my favorite Frank Zappa quotes on this subject;
The whole foundation of Christianity is based on the idea that intellectualism is the work of the Devil. Remember the apple on the tree? Okay, it was the Tree of Knowledge. "You eat this apple, you're going to be as smart as God. We can't have that."
-- Frank Zappa

Hmmm, why did god not want them to eat the apple? Well I guess it makes sense if you think of it as before and after. Before they were happy and pretty oblivious to everything. After, they weren't so happy and they had to endure the pains of the world. So.... god being like a good father, did not want his children to suffer.

"Hey, let's get serious... God knows what he's doin' He wrote this book here And the book says: 'He made us all to be just like Him', So... If we're dumb... Then God is dumb... (And maybe even a little ugly on the side)"
- -Frank Zappa

I still don't understand what is meant when "god" says we are made after him. I thought god didn't have a form or shape that was comprehendable? Well, then again in the bible it does say something about this not being our "true forms". More like vessels?

and one not from Zappa;
"The philosopher has never killed any priests, whereas the priest has killed a great many philosophers."
-- Denis Diderot

I love that one. It's sad, because its true. The mass of people are stupid, while intelligent people are few and sit idly by while the mass destroys the world. < Thats what I say. It just means that stupid people rule the world. ....which is painfully obvious where ever you go.

Now all of this sounds like I hate religion or Christianity, but that is not true. I think that the bible was one of the best and worst things to happen to this planet. Imagine if everyone was an atheist, there would be no moral retribution for bad deeds so why would anyone show any restraint? The threat of burning in hell for eternity has probably had some effect on the actions of others...

I completely agree.

BTW looking to the bible to answer questions in the bible does not seem logical to me...

Again, I completely agree. It would make more sense to go back to the dead sea scrolls or whatever to answer questions in the bible. Oh wait, thats right, even the most intelligent people have a difficult time deciphering them. People back then thought completely different than how we do now. Thats what I think and thats why I don't, if not completely, believe in the bible. That and I haven't read any of the foundations of the bible so I can not believe that what I am reading has come from that which I have not read.

Enough on the religion. I don't want to make this a religious war here. We are after all modders not apostles.

I don't think it is bad to discuss religion and our beliefs on it. Thats why you are not a closed minded fool isn't it Airbozo? Because you are open to other ideas aside from your own and are not afraid of being wrong? Thats how I feel at least. Just keep the flames of war down and don't say anything REALLY stupid and we shouldn't have problem. If you feel the urge to flame someone, like me haha, then just keep repeating to yourself to stay calm. ^^

Slug Toy: I'm sorry I do not know more about rocks. I do know that it is possible to have a pretty in depth discussion about them though. There is alot more than what meets the eye, archaeologists realize that I think.

[Airbozo]

I don't think it is bad to discuss religion and our beliefs on it. Thats why you are not a closed minded fool isn't it Airbozo? Because you are open to other ideas aside from your own and are not afraid of being wrong? Thats how I feel at least. Just keep the flames of war down and don't say anything REALLY stupid and we shouldn't have problem. If you feel the urge to flame someone, like me haha, then just keep repeating to yourself to stay calm. ^^

Hehe, Spot on! I don't get into flame wars, in fact I rarely get angry enough to intentionally insult anyone (except that guy who shot at my house...). You are right, I try to keep an open mind about everything. I even have multiple takes on the "made in gods image" line from the bible, and several different twists on religion itself. We learn more by being wrong than being right. At least the lesson sticks better. IMHO conversations about religion go one of two ways: SHUT UP GODLESS HEATHEN! or That is an interesting take, how about this?

Sometimes I do say/type stupid things, but the beauty of a forum, is that you get to show _extra_ patience (and intelligence) by going back and re-reading your post before hitting the submit button. All of life should be like that.

[Ironcat]

I think it is entirely possible to believe in BOTH the THEORY of evolution AND creation.
I do NOT think the Grand Canyon was carved from water in the 40 day flood but since we went off on the little tangents about whether or not the ark was real or even possible, here's my .02

If you read the bible, there were only three requirements for the animals to be loaded on the ark. They had to be:
Air-breathing. Specifically it says "nostrils", more on that later.
Terrestrial (land-dwelling).
Of the same biblical kind.

The word species and the biblical word kind are often used interchangeably. But this is incorrect since they are not synonymous terms. The book of Genesis uses the word kind to denote an organism that reproduces others like itself. Since the species concept is much narrower, many species can be included in one single biblical “kind.” The term kind
is probably closer to the modern taxonomic classification of genus, and in some cases the larger taxonomic classification, family.
The Canidae (canine) family includes about 14 genera of dog-like animals. These include the dog, coyote, wolf, jackal, etc. The ark did not have to contain the hundreds of species of canines that make up this group because these were all represented by a few biblical “kind.” These “kind” would then produce all the animals that make up the Canidae family. For example, all of the hundreds of varieties of domestic pigeons that have been produced originated from one species, apparently the wild rock pigeon (Columbia livia).
The ark did not need to carry every species (possibly numbering in the millions) of animal. The ark was designed to carry only every biblical kind (numbering in the few thousands) of terrestrial, air-breathing animals.

God reiterates this point when He describes the kind of animals that perished during the Flood. These were specifically the type of animals that Noah was told to take on board the ark. “Every living thing that moved on the earth perished—birds, livestock, wild animals, all the creatures that swarm over the earth, and all mankind. Everything on dry land that had the breath of life in its nostrils died”

Millions of beetles thing? The Flood wiped out all land animals which breathed through nostrils except those on the Ark. Insects do not breathe through nostrils but through tiny tubes in their exterior skeleton.

It is evident, when all the facts are examined that there is no scientific evidence that the biblical account of Noah's ark is a myth or fable. The facts support the view that Noah's ark was large enough to carry the number of animals required to repopulate the earth after the flood and that Noah and his family were capable of caring for the animals during their time on the Ark.

[d_stilgar]

I think it is entirely possible to believe in BOTH the THEORY of evolution AND creation.

I completely agree.