Don't Tear Me Down, Respect the Veterans.

[xRyokenx]

One: A symbol is a symbol is a symbol is a symbol is a symbol is a symbol. This one they want taken down happens to be a symbol for people that gave their lives fighting in a war. The lower case "t" is a cross shape but nobody gets mad about it.

There really isn't a legit reason to have it removed, unless of course one doesn't like having some sort of memorial for people that pretty much gave up their life to allow others to live in a relatively free way.

People get too easily offended. Makes little sense to me but a lot of people are relatively ignorant and too stubborn to be otherwise. *shrug*

Now the thing that bothers me is basically a corpse being on a cross. Or any other sort of reminder of death. But that's just me.

[Bopher]

My question, and I don't want anybody going crazy here, is WHO did it offend enough that the ACLU decided that it needed to be taken down? From what I have read up on now the understanding when the monument was erected it was depicted as a war memorial and has been to most for 75 years. Someone correct me but is the VFW a government run organization? Because according to this article Congress passed on the land rights from Parks and Services (Fed) to the VFW (Civ Sector??), that would make the land privately owned if I am understanding and again I don't want to make anybody upset here, we're all friends, and unless there is some city code (in the desert?) then the VFW should be able to keep it there.

The ACLU in my opinion has gone to far. If they wanted to cover all of this then they need to stop the families of car accident victims from posting those little white crosses in the highway. Could anybody out there walk up to a person setting one of those up and tell them to take it down?

Why should the ACLU only step in if it going to be a large impact on the rights of others. If I am the only one having a right blocked why as one person are my right not important enough to have someone come from them and defend them? Are the rights of one person, or anybody America or world wide, any less important then one group of people?

I hate to rant and I never feel like I make the right argument. Here's my bottom line. Leave it alone, its not hurting anybody. Do they know for a fact that a muslim, or hindu, or buddist is walking or driving by that monument and saying, "I am offended by that symbol." Have those same people got out and read the sign that says what that symbol stands for? Probably not and it makes me sad.

[Snowman]

Japan?

My grandfather rode on the supply trains in China and also helped defend China from invasion. In case you didn't notice the Japanese tried to take over the entire Pacific arena in WWII. I was simply using the the other crosses around the globe that are more well know such as those in England, Normandy, and Arlington to represent a point. I may be a civilian but I will defend the rights of our veterans to my cold final dying breath. Do not take this as me being aggressive or spiteful but where is the ACLU when the men and women of our country come home from 145 degree heat and get spit upon by people who's rights they just put their life on the line for. I apologize for every indecent, ungrateful, sorry, selfish, lowlife that ever has the spinelessness to disrespect a vet.

I have to admit I may have jumped to some conclusions about the ACLU but they are not completely off basis. Also, it makes me wonder why you came to such a quick defense of the ACLU, as well as jumped to the conclusion that may position on the issue was purely political. I have an immensely deep rooted annoyance with our current form of democracy. A great man once said that politicians are like dirty diapers, they should be changed often and for the same reasons. Even the most honest of men can go corrupt with power especially when they are voting on their own raises. So do not think that I make the assumption that I think the ACLU are a bunch of baby killers based on their political stance. You want my political stance, anybody that's been there for longer than a single term get rid of them. While your at it make them accountable for their actions and don't allow them to vote on what their paycheck will be. That's like putting a kid in a candy store with a credit card that he will never have to pay and he still steals the candy. You must pardon my long and very dreary posts but its not often that I can get intelligent conversation on things that should truly matter to everyone.

They should have made the thing they erected on public property a bayonet with dog tags and helmet on top instead of a religious icon. Then we wouldn't be having this conversation, and their monument would be more to the point and clear.

Don't you think that's kind of a ridiculous request of a bunch of soldiers who are mustering out or trying to recover from watching their best friend or family member being blown apart or killed in a bayonet charge. I am sorry but this is asking someone to change what they believe in because it may offend someone else. If it offends you why drive out to the middle of the desert to look at it.

The only reason we can still have "under god" on our currency and the pledge of allegiance is because it is said that it represents all gods, whether you are a jew, a christian, a muslim or you worship the flying spaghetti monster. The cross represents Jesus and the majority of the Christian's God.

This is another thing that puts the squeeze on that last nerve of what annoys me about today's society. I have nothing against what you said but rather it really bothers me that the minorities in America can stand up for what they believe in and change the traditions and belief systems in a country because if a majority such as a white male christian stood up and mentioned something about another specific holiday such as Kwanzaa he would be labeled a racist. Not taking into account that Kwanzaa has absolutely nothing to do with religion and was founded by a sadistic homicidal nut job. Sorry I will take a week off for Christmas and have In God We Trust on my money way before I would have it not be there.

I've noticed several other religions represented at Arlington, also. There were some judaism stars on top of some grave stones and I'm sure that if you were a muslim or an atheist you could equal representation in your death also. If all of the monuments at arlen were christian, you would have an argument here. They aren't. You don't.

I very much do have a point here and you helped me prove it. My point was that this cross is not something religious but a memorial for FALLEN SOLDIERS not a fallen deity. So thank you for helping me prove my point. These crosses are meant to represent fallen soldiers that fought for the very rights we are using to have this conversation. That is why you see the Star of David and many other emblems on these crosses representing these religions. It is why you will see thousands of Jewish names and the Star of David on the crosses in England and in Normandy. So if this cross comes down whatever little faith I had left for my generation will be completely and utterly gone and can only hope that my sons generation might get it right.

[Quakken]

In a nutshell, I think it disrespects the soldiers who weren't christians to have a christian symbol be representing their deaths. The government must have equal representation of religion or none on its land. BUT! If it's not the government's land (if it's the VFW's, or some other private thing) then I say that they should definitely keep the memorial. No reason to tear it down if it's lawful.

I'm just a strict constitutionalist on this issue. When the church gets too mixed up in the government, people's freedoms suffer. I never want people's freedoms to suffer. The bill of rights upholds their freedoms, so it must be upheld in any circumstance possible. This is essentially the ACLU's role, they, a private not for profit organization, provide legal aid to people whose constitutional rights are possibly suffering. The ACLU is not the government, if anything they try to keep everyone within the constitution, including the government at times.

[nevermind1534]

It is not hurting or forcing religion upon anybody. It is only something that was erected by soldiers, in memory of others. No disrespect was meant for, or should be taken by anybody.

Nobody was largely against it for the 75 years that it stood, until now.

[TheGreatSatan]

Atheism: An organized religion against organized religion... just saying, might want to go with agnostic if thats how you truly feel.

Look at the name dude. Satan. I'm a Satanist. Not like your preacher told you about though. "Levayan"

Anyway the cross didn't mean jack till hundreds of years after Christs' execution. Before his death, it was a symbol of slavery and why it was such an insult to be hung to one. Like someone else said, not everyone is Christian and not everone thinks a cross is a good memorial. I think a plaque and wreath would be more appropriate.

[KiLLERMAN21]

Calling Atheism a religion is wrong. Being an Atheist just means that you don't believe in any kind of god.

I for one don't like any religion, be it Christianity or Satanism. It is probably the most unnecessary things in society. We have brains for a reason. To think. You don't need religion to guide you in life. Use your own head and do what pleases you, when it pleases you.

People tend to have a horrible misconception of Atheism. They usually think that because you don't have religion in your life, you can't tell right from wrong etc. I tell myself what is right, what I want to do, and what I probably shouldn't do. Anything or anyone that tries to give me a set of rules to live my life by can just keep on walking.

We need a religion thread.

[Trace]

Uh, in WWI we were not fighting Japan.

Anyways, the cross does not have to associated with religion or in particular Christianity. The Romans used the cross as a execution/torture device. Just because one man who some believe is divine was executed on a cross does not mean all crosses are in memorial to him. The person who complained about this cross needs to be more tolerant of others (as does the ACLU in this case). Since the cross is just a cross, no associated Christ figure (dead, dieing or otherwise), it can not be absolutely associated with Christianity (and therefore the ACLU needs to back down off their high horses). Also, since the structure is 75 years old, I wonder if it can get into the national historic registry, protecting it from destruction.

I have to disagree with the exact fact of the Roman thing. Romans would have used a "T" like cross as opposed to the "t" that symbolizes Christianity, Judaism, etc.

As to the road-side memorials, I feel the sorrow of the family, however it is litter as it is on public property, and why would you want to be reminded of your loved one's death?

I personally am Atheist/Agnostic and "Under God", Crosses, etc do not bother me. Every person has the right to believe what they want.

Now, about the main topic, I respect the veterans and would support them to the end. HOWEVER, it is technically against the law for the cross to be there if it is on Government land. I personally don't give a flying fladoodle if it's there or not. Rather, I feel that if you don't want to see it, stay away from it. It is your choice, as I understand it, to drive out to the middle of the freaking desert to see this.

Here's the thing: WE LIVE IN A DEMOCRACY. Some people may agree to have it removed, some people may agree that it should stay. I feel that a vote should be taken and the majority wins. Just like a civil jury trial, the presidential election, and most other things are decided.

Please tell me if you disagree

-Trace

[slaveofconvention]

I have always been of the opinion that Atheism is an active belief in the absence of a "supreme being" whereas Agnosticism is more appropriate in the case of an absence of belief - put more basically, an Atheist might say "There is NO God" while an agnostic might say "I don't know".

As for the issue of crosses in public places - I'm a non-practicing catholic - I personally have no real interest in religeon, but I have NO problem with people who do, irrespective of that religeon. There is, in my opinion, no reason why religeous symbols should not be publically visible and the ownership of the land where that symbol happens to be should not be an issue. The government in the UK doesn't own a damned thing - it's PUBLICALLY owned - I'd assume the same of the US, in which case surely the democratic nature of the nation should stand, when the opinion of the majority holds, not the opinion of the minority, no matter how well funded or represented that minority may be.

As regards this cross, my personal opinion is that it absolutely should NOT be taken down. It's "value" as a geniune memorial to the people who laid down their lives should more than outweigh it's "value" as a religeous symbol. The box that has been placed on the box is, however, a gross insult to the memories of those men. This is one of those things where, again, in MY opinion, common sense NEEDS to be applied over the letter of the law. Lets not forget that the letter of the law is only ever an attempt to document the spirit of that law. In the same way (and I can see me getting my ass handed to me for this as a non-american) the bill of rights and the constitution are, again, an attempt to convey the spirit of those rights.

On a side note - my wife IS american, and she agrees with me regarding the cross - it should NOT come down, so I'm not writing from a TOTALLY foreign perspective.

Remember - opinions are like ***holes - everyone has one and a lot of them stink....

What'll actually happen, most likely, will be a "compromise" - the memorial will be replaced with one which has less chance of offending anyone - and by the time it is decided in court, organised by a committee, designed by a "professional artist" who'll come to the conclusion that a plain marble block is the only totally neutral thing possible, the heavy machinery is brought in, the unions take their cut, the security cost of protecting the construction from those who DON'T agree with it etc etc etc is taken into account, it'll cost every man woman and child in the states a dollar or two - and in the end, no-one will be TOTALLY happy about it....

[Snowman]

Look at the name dude. Satan. I'm a Satanist. Not like your preacher told you about though. "Levayan"

Anyway the cross didn't mean jack till hundreds of years after Christs' execution. Before his death, it was a symbol of slavery and why it was such an insult to be hung to one. Like someone else said, not everyone is Christian and not everone thinks a cross is a good memorial. I think a plaque and wreath would be more appropriate.

I haven't listened to a preacher since I was old enough to have any common sense whatsoever. I have been to a church for almost any Christian faith you can dream of. To take the given definition of Atheism as simply not believing then you couldn't possibly in any form believe in Satan if you do not believe in God. Without God there is no Satan, no Satan means no Satanism however not in the LaVeyan sense.

I do not base my morals or my judgment on religion, if I did I would be a completely different person than what I am. I completely respect the fact that not everyone is a Christian and completely realize that no one religion is perfect or can explain everything. Most of these worlds problems have started over religion or greed. If it weren't for religion Ireland would be at peace, the World Trade Center may still be standing (depending on what you believe about that), and the Middle East wouldn't be bathed in blood.

Back to the point of this post, I think that if the white crosses representing soldiers of many religions was an issue that the families of the soldiers of Normandy, or the soldiers at Arlington's families would request something else? No they take the great honor that their family member has earned while protecting our very rights to argue over whether or not there should be a white cross standing on their grave. I do not see why some are so hung up on religion when they say they don't care or don't believe. If you don't care or don't believe why is it so offensive to you?