The Canyon That God Built?

[Slug Toy]

"He who fights with monsters might take care lest he thereby become a monster. And if you gaze for long into an abyss, the abyss gazes also into you."

do you place particular importance on this quote as well, nil8? it seems to me you have admitted to being a loner and a very obscure person. its kind of coincidental that you also spend a lot of time researching these "fringe" philosophical ideas.

nil8--why do they use words that have their roots (Satanism, Satanic) in Satan's name, if they do not follow him--as they put it?

not that i know a lot about this stuff, but perhaps the word satan has another meaning aside from a designated name. perhaps satan in another language means something not so evil...

[jaxspades]

The word Satan is Hebrew in origin and means "accuser".

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Satan

In arabic, it means to be hostile or accuse....

etc....it's all in the wiki-post.

[Commando]

Whoaa,

It is so easy to leave this thread alone. But what a great group of well educated folks to talk logically about this kinda stuff.

I won't mention names but be careful saying you don't believe in god. Hear me out. That sounds a little absolute. I've been called a laid back when it comes to religion. That can be interpreted however you like. But most would say, open minded.

Having been put in lots of extreme situations where logical good vs evil didn't seem to prevail or pan out the way I thought it should, would make anybody's faith shaky.

But the fact remains even the most critical views of science can get so close and then what? It's called theory. Which sounds a lot like faith. We can scientifically explain the beginning of the universe about 30 seconds after the big bang. Ok, scientific method. What happened 30 seconds prior to that? It's called faith.

I think Noahs Ark is the same. An interpretation. If you live on a continent and your continent starts to flood. Your like wow, the whole earth is flooding. Because that is all you know or see.

All I'm saying is extreme views of religion or science don't lend themselves to finding out the truth. Which is a personal journey for the individual trying to find it.

[nil8]

Interpretation depends on the person. The way I have always interpreted the quote is that to understand monsters, you must become one. The other is that after you stare into the abyss, you keep it with you. Everything you focus your attention towards becomes part of your existence. There are certain acts you do or see that you can't remove from yourself. Some are happy and joyful, some aren't. It's a matter of what you choose to ignore instead of dealing with. Society does a decent job helping people cope with the more mainstream ones and has a tendency to turn a blind eye to the ones that are disturbing or harmful.

LaVeyan Satanism focuses the idea of learning to manage and control the aspects of humanity that traditional Christianity rejects. Sexuality, drug use to expand the mind, the ability to understand and control the horrific parts of ourselves instead of rejecting them.

The reason Satanists use the name of Satan is for filtration. Close minded people often don't understand the real intent of these groups and take the name at face value. It's part of the shock value. Another reason is because almost all of the groups have spawned in the face of Christianity, which is the major religion of the nation, and is often dealing with the rejection of the ideals of fundamental Christianity. Some take it far into Christian dogma, some don't.

I've never heard of the video, but I am interested. People come into these groups with preconceived notions of what to expect and if one specific example tried something and got different results than expected, then so be it. I personally don't have faith in the ideas of demons, angels, god, or satan. Once again, I don't know demonology that much. It's never been a real interest of mine. I will ask my friend about Ashteroth.

Slug, you seem to be hinting at the fact that I have all this knowledge and it's probably not for anthropological means. As for the quote itself, not specifically. I get into this debate from time to time and it's a good closing statement to reflect on some of the basic concepts I try to express. There are many more important ones to me, but I like quotes. It's an easy method to model complex ideas into simple metaphors that can be remembered.

I also research mainstream philosophy. The big why questions are important to me. Have been since I was 19. Part of what makes me a loner is that I rarely connect with people my age. They like partying, or reading Harry Potter or dancing, or drugs. I'm interested in thinking. I live to think.

The complexity of existence is beautiful and one way I love to waste my time. I have no illusions about this matter. I will not become a great thinker of my time. I won't figure out the questions that have slipped man's minds for his entire existence. It's all about love of the game and self growth. The more I figure out for myself, the more I understand about my nature as a human.

I am a loner, I spend large amounts of my time studying different things. Last night I listened to an lecture series on Don Quixote and the social implications of the time period that the novel was published. I have an extreme thirst for knowledge that I haven't been able to quench yet and doubt if I will be able to in a lifetime. The only way to become smarter is to learn and the more knowledge I have the more I can throw into those big why questions.

[Airbozo]

Ok, Couldn't let the mention of a Ouija board go by without a little story;

When I was about 12-14 I had a friend a little older than me with a kind of freaky mother (all the women in his family have some mental issues), and she scared him art an early age with religion and demons and such. One day he was complaining of having bad dreams for a while and we found a Ouija board in his closet. We started playing with it and his mom burst in screaming about demons and devils and how that game would send us to hell. It really freaked him out so he packed up the game and threw it outside. Another friend and I picked up the Ouija board and snuck it into his room again, placing in under his bed where he would find it. Well this went on for a couple of months where he would throw it away and one of us or one of his sister's would pull it out of the trash and put it back somewhere in his room without him knowing....

After about 2 months he had enough and started getting really freaky about scouring his room for that evil Ouija board before he could go to sleep. We even snuck it in his room after he fell asleep putting it on his shoes or school books so he would find it easy. After all this he refused to sleep in his room anymore and started sleeping on his sisters bedroom floor. She was in on it, so we were able to even get the Ouija board into her room and tucked under his arms while he was sleeping. That was enough. He started screaming when he woke up and we all though maybe we had gone too far. The next day at school he was ranting how the devil was after him (thanks to his mom), and he was cursed, and was actually talking about getting an exorcism. We broke down and told him that it was us and his sister, but he refused to believe us. It took us several weeks to convince him we were the ones that put the Ouija board into his room. I had always thought we scarred him for life with that thing, but he turned out ok. I got to see him a couple of years ago at a family gathering (his older brother married my sister and had 2 kids), and we had a great laugh about it.

Yes I do have an evil streak in me. Embrace the monster to control the monster. Wasn't that something from the HULK?

[nil8]

But the fact remains even the most critical views of science can get so close and then what? It's called theory. Which sounds a lot like faith. We can scientifically explain the beginning of the universe about 30 seconds after the big bang. Ok, scientific method. What happened 30 seconds prior to that? It's called faith.

All I'm saying is extreme views of religion or science don't lend themselves to finding out the truth. Which is a personal journey for the individual trying to find it.

This mistake is common of people who don't understand what theory means in science. Scientific theory doesn't turn into scientific fact. It's often used incorrectly dealing with the idea of Creationism vs Evolution. A theory in science doesn't mean a speculation or idea that's unfounded or plucked from thin air.
Scientific theory means observation, hypothesis, testing, and debate. It is a system that changes as new data sheds light upon it.
Quantum theory will never become quantum fact. Hell, the basic concept of gravity is still a scientific theory. It is an integral part of the function of the universe and in our daily lives and it will never become the fact of gravity.

You're a horrible person Airbozo. Although, I think the kids parents are worse for the repression and headgames that started those problems. Convincing children that Satan will take your soul if you use a piece of cardboard with letters on it is foolish, at best and a boogeyman that can cause real mental damage at worst. As for the statement, I'm pretty sure Nietzsche said it first.

As for the origins of the universe or how it will end or what happens after we die. I think these questions will always be asked and no one will have a definitive answer. The only reason I tend to learn towards science is because they're trying to figure it out logically, with a methodology that adapts to new data, and really understand and know these things. Religion is rigid in its statements, it requires faith, and never tries to seek different answers or explain itself without going back to supernatural means.

I've recently cracked "The God Delusion" by Richard Dawkins. Good book for atheists or skeptics. So far, it seems to be well composed and lays out some of the basic differences in religion.

I do have to give everyone who has participated in this thread kudos. We've remained civil and had actual discussion, instead of flaming or other childish acts. I've seen many groups of adults try to do this in person with very bad results, and I know that some of you are still in high school. Great maturity and discourse has occurred throughout this thread and I hope it continues. Kudos.

[Airbozo]

You're a horrible person Airbozo. Although, I think the kids parents are worse for the repression and headgames that started those problems. Convincing children that Satan will take your soul if you use a piece of cardboard with letters on it is foolish, at best and a boogeyman that can cause real mental damage at worst. As for the statement, I'm pretty sure Nietzsche said it first.

Hehe I was a horrible kid I give you that. I learned from many of my, uh er, mistakes, that messing with people heads too much causes more harm than physical abuse does. I am so much better at practical jokes now that I "think" before I tease...

I do have to give everyone who has participated in this thread kudos. We've remained civil and had actual discussion, instead of flaming or other childish acts. I've seen many groups of adults try to do this in person with very bad results, and I know that some of you are still in high school. Great maturity and discourse has occurred throughout this thread and I hope it continues. Kudos.

I agree with you on this. We as a group behave better in this thread than most adults I know. Religion is one of those "taboo" subjects that will cause great harm to friendships if it gets out of control. Well done everyone!

...

[jaxspades]

Well, I still will not touch it. I did once, and it scared the living daylights out of me. Neither of us were moving it, and it guessed things about me that the other person didn't even know.

My dad said it did the same to him.

I know, this sounds like BS, but I won't touch it--It's someone out there talking, whether you think it's Satan or a demon (I do), or a ghost, a poltergeist, or whatever--it doesn't matter--it's creepy.

That's just mean Airbozo--but I got a laugh out of it. pranks are funny at times......

I gotta laugh too at the progression of the post--Noah/Geology to Christianity to Existence of God to Satan to Ouija Board. Crazy convo we have going on here.

Right--the book on Satanism--I have yet to read it, I'll tell you about someday....if procrastination doesn't eat me alive.

How to respond to Satanism by Bruce G. Frederickson.

Quote on the front:
"Until Christ returns, Satan will continue to scheme...to plan ways to lead people away from Christ."

Interesting...Hope I read it and give you guys the review--we'll see how much time I have this semester.

[nil8]

Ouija boards can't guess anything. They're cardboard.
I'm hard nosed about Ouija boards because they're a toy. The way it tricks you can be explained. It's been tested. Mentally, think of it more like a mirror or a placebo. You see what you want to see and believe what you want to believe. There's nothing supernatural about a Ouija board. Never has been, never will be.

Other people's pain is funny. Always has been. The only time it isn't is when it's happening to you or they die or suffer severe damage.

I have many books I can recommend, but I highly doubt if anyone will actually pick them up and read them.

There are a couple of discussions I would love to have with some of the users on this forum, but Cana got banned for a week over one and the other is against the rules, so I will leave them on the other forums.

[Slug Toy]

There are a couple of discussions I would love to have with some of the users on this forum, but Cana got banned for a week over one and the other is against the rules, so I will leave them on the other forums.

well you could always send us some PM's or contact us by email.