The Canyon That God Built?

[Airbozo]

jaxspade: I am sorry if my comments were construed as offensive. That was not my intent. I was sharing information that was given to me by my Jesuit Priest Professors when I said it was more of a religious guideline than strict doctrine. Back in the late '80s I was taking classes to get my IT professional certification and the best college for that program at the time (in my area), was Regis College in Denver. A Jesuit College. Part of the requirements was to take several credits of religious studies (turned out to be 2 years of classes). It turned out to be more fun than I anticipated, because I was used to sunday school and church. Actually learning about the history of religions and the implications on society is completely different than sitting in church trying not to fall asleep.

Most of my professors agreed (and taught) that using the bible as we know it today as a literal representation of gods word was way off base due to the fact that our current version of the bible has been corrupted by interpretation and translation for _many_ years. Only when you can study some of the oldest transcripts can you get the complete meaning and story that the bible presents. The King James version of the bible (which is most widely used in America), is one of the more _impure_ (for lack of a better word) versions of the new testament due to the several different language translations. When you translate something from one language to another to another something will always get lost or misconstrued and then it is up to the religious leaders of the time to "interpret" the intended meaning. This is why the Professors taught it as guidelines to live your life by and not the true words of God, rather the interpretation of God's words.

I also do not believe in god. BUT I could be wrong and freely admit that. I have searched for that higher power. I have been baptized, attended baptist church as a kid, Spent several years studying the version of the bible used by Jehovah Witnesses, got involved with Born again Christians (who spend way too much time feeling sorry for their sins and not living a happy life), spent some time with the Morman community (some scary sheeite there!), and am now surrounded by Catholics thanks to my Wifes side of the family (some of the most closed minded people when it comes to their religion).

There is still debate as to what language most of the texts were written in, but most believe it was Greek although the argument is that some were written in Aramaic. There are even "books" that were left out. When the different tomes were written a group of clerics got together to decide what was actually put in the new testament. Over the course of several hundred years some books were even removed.

Although I do not at the moment believe in god, I do believe that _something_ happened at the time that Jesus was supposed to have walked the earth. Something that affected the Christians, Muslims and Hindus (sorry if I left anyone out). So why was this phenomenon isolated to the European continent and surrounding areas? China has no historical reference to Christ's birth. Nor does north or south America, southern Africa, or Australia. This is confusing for _many_ scholars as well.

BTW I have forgot many things I learned in the religious studies classes (after all it was 20+ years ago and _many_ parties later), but would recommend them to _everyone_, if not to learn about your particular religion, then to understand the differences and similarities between ALL religions.

If I may bring it back to topic, Due to all the translations and interpretations, the timing of the bible may have suffered as well. The measurement of time has changed over the years so it is possible that the meaning of a "year" has changed as well. This did not come up in one of my classes, but it was something I saw on a Discovery Channel special about the Dead Sea Scrolls. One of the comments by the Scholars translating the Scrolls (which were not allowed out of the devout religious leaders control for many many years for fear that they would be misinterpreted), was that the translation of the words for years and centuries or eons were similar (I may have the increments wrong) and early man had no concept of "thousands of years", as we do today. So it could be possible that the 6000 years of earth (or whatever) could be interpreted as 6000 centuries or eons.

Ok, I guess I can blame that ramble on the extra strong coffee I got on my way to work. I should know better than to fill up my cup from the pot labeled "Jet Fuel".

[Slug Toy]

If it was read the way it was written, then it would make perfect sense.

the big problem with this one is the fact that people are really good at reading things wrong. its bad enough trying to read body language when you're talking with a person face to face. take away the person, and put in written word instead, and you pretty much lose all feel of the emotion and power that went into making the book. written word just adds a whole new level of ambiguity over every day troubles.

[jaxspades]

The bible is misinterpreted, and mistranslated at times, but it was written by God through the believers who wrote each book--it is infallible in my religion.

That is why in the Wisconsin Ev. Lutheran Synod, the 'sect' you could call it of Christianity, our pastor track men spend roughly 9 or more years studying Greek, Hebrew, and Aramaic, so that when they are Pastors in the field, they are quite adequate at translating.

Animals simply die, they go nowhere because they do not have a soul. The bible makes this distinction often by talking of our souls, and never says that animals have a soul. Also, Adam was breathed into by God--this is where God gave him a soul. When God created animals, he never did this, thus, they have no soul.

Again, we believe it is not an open source, for it was written by God through the men who physically wrote it down. They were inspired by the Holy Spirit.

Here are some passages about that--read if you want.
2 Peter 1:21; 2 Timothy 3:16

By the way, I've been getting my passages in the NIV translation--biblegateway.com is a great site for translations and everything.

Also, I do not just pick and chose passages, I've also been cross-referencing them, and checking their context, which are key when you interpret scriptures.

That's okay, Airbozo, I took too quickly to offense. I too took many classes about Religion, I have taken Sunday School, went to a Christian Grade School, a Prep high school whose purpose is training for the ministry, where I got Bible History training, Bible Literature and Doctrine, and currently at my College I have learned the same things again, so that I may have this knowledge as I teach in a Christian school some day.

I do not know how these Jesuit Professors could say what they may have said. I'm surprised, since they have had generous training in the Scriptures. However, I kind of not surprised, since my synod is different from Catholicism, and we have more conservative beliefs then the Catholics.

If any of you guys are Catholic, I am not flaming, I am just stating that we are different. I say this only because I witnessed a topic like this go real bad in a different forum, and I don't want to see that happen.

[Zephik]

jaxspades, if you don't mind answering, I have a question for you. You've peaked my interested to be honest. I knew a man who is like you. When I had conversations with this him I would just assume with what he told me to be very well educated. As he was in many aspects. I think, if only in your faith, you are similar. So here is my question. Why do you believe in God?

[jaxspades]

I heard the word, and the Holy Spirit worked faith in me, through the power of Baptism, and through His continuing sanctifying work through my scriptural studies, and Holy Communion.

Also, I have realized again and again, that I am not in control, God has helped me through many hardships, depression, and just every day life.

I look at nature and I see Him in it, not that nature is Him or He is nature, but I see His work in it.

I just take comfort in the knowledge of His presence. I know this may sound like a joke to some, but I seriously know that things do not just fall into place.

[public_eyesore]

If god could somehow prove to me of his existence and then tell me that I should follow this or that in this or that way. I would "obey" him. Not because he told me to, but because if my blood father asked me to do something, I would do it out of the love for my father. If not for him, I would not exist. So it would be no different for my "heavenly" father who created myself as well as my father. If god does exist that is, which I have yet to discover. Thats how I feel at least.

Don't want to get too into this debate, but couldn't let this one slip by.

If God proved that he existed then there would be no point to faith. Everybody would follow him out of fear because they knew that they would go to hell, and would be more like slaves than children. This way without knowing you are tested by God for your faith in him.

[Zephik]

Don't want to get too into this debate, but couldn't let this one slip by.

If God proved that he existed then there would be no point to faith. Everybody would follow him out of fear because they knew that they would go to hell, and would be more like slaves than children. This way without knowing you are tested by God for your faith in him.

You know, I think you are right public_eyesore. So I guess the question now is, what reason is there to have faith in his existence? I can't willingly believe in something without some reason or another to. "If you jump off this cliff, you will live". Everything that I know, points to me believing that if I jumped off that cliff, I would die.

[public_eyesore]

i'm not gonna get into this discussion, but just wanted to point out that that was an easy question that just slipped past. If you know God exists, then you know if you don't repent you will go to hell, thus you are controlled by fear and not by free will and faith.

[DaveW]

I know this may sound like a joke to some

I think everyone here has enough enough respect for other cultures and ways not consider it a joke. I'd never scorn another's beliefs, even the African tribes who thought the sky would fall on them if they cut down the tall trees.

"If you jump off this cliff, you will live". Everything that I know, points to me believing that if I jumped off that cliff, I would die.

Totally different situation. There is scientific proof that if you jumped off that cliff you would die. There is no scientific evidence that proves god's existence, and none that disproves it. Did you know that Einstein believed in the afterlife, because knowing that energy could only be transfered, he believed that your soul (or even 'brain energy' i think he called it) could never be destroyed?

-Dave

[Slug Toy]

Did you know that Einstein believed in the afterlife, because knowing that energy could only be transfered, he believed that your soul (or even 'brain energy' i think he called it) could never be destroyed?

i suppose its possible. i mean, if you were to die and just be buried directly in the ground, you would decompose and the materials in your body would join up with the dirt. you would be spread out through the soil by water and insects and all that... and you would be sucked up by plants as nutrients. eventually you would be spread out over many square kilometers and be part of many organisms. not that you've been reincarnated, but your matter has contributed to other organisms.

haha, actually that reminds me of a good line from blackadder goes forth: "the standard procedure, when stepping on a land mine, is to jump 200 feet in the air and spread yourself out over as large an area as possible."