The Canyon That God Built?

[Airbozo]

I think it is entirely possible to believe in BOTH the THEORY of evolution AND creation.
...

I also think this is in the realm of possibility. Who's to say god is not a single cell organism with higher brain activity and no sense of time as we see/feel it today? (or something like that). No less credible than "!POOF!" let there be light...

Back to the canyon question; One thing that convinces me that it was formed over a great period of time is the different wear patterns on the sides of the canyons. Some parts could have been gouged in a short period of time and some show patterns of wear and re-filling, then wear again. Hey maybe some of it could be receding water and some could be glacial.

[Slug Toy]

Hey Slug Toy--in Genesis 7:11 it reads, "In the six hundredth year of Noah's life, on the seventeenth day of the second month—on that day all the springs of the great deep burst forth, and the floodgates of the heavens were opened."

That's where the Hydroplane theory comes from--they believe that when the waters 'burst forth', places like the Grand Canyon, Mariana's Trench, and the Mid-Atlantic Ridge were created.

ok, i dont mean to pointlessly shoot holes in this, but is the bible saying that noah lived for at least 600 years?

also, the mariana's trench is the product of rapid subduction. the plates are being forced down very fast (fast in terms of geological processes). a jet or water cant do that to rock, and anyways the trench is still going down, and seeming as there is no flooding going on there anymore, that kind of settles that. its not the weight of the water either. if it were, then all the land under the water would be sinking.

the mid atlantic ridge is a volcanic process. we can measure it. the sea floor is spreading there. i dont know how a flood would trigger that to happen.

[Ironcat]

From Wikipedia:

The Bible contains many accounts of long-lived humans, the oldest being Methuselah living to be 969 years old (Genesis 5:27). Today some maintain that the unusually high longevity of Biblical patriarchs are the result of an error in translation: lunar cycles were mistaken for the solar ones, and that the actual ages being described would have been 12.4 times less (a lunar cycle being 29.5 days). This makes Methuselah's age only 78, still an impressive number bearing in mind the average life expectancy at the time. This rationalization, however, seems doubtful too since patriarchs such as Mahalalel (ibid 5:15) and Enoch (ibid 5:21) were said to have become fathers after 65 "years". If the lunar cycle claim were accepted this would translate to an age of about 5 years and 3 months. One Christian apologist claim is that the life span of humans has changed; that originally man was to have everlasting life, but due to man's sin, God progressively shortened man's life in the "four falls of mankind" -- first to less than 1000 years, then to under 500, 200, and eventually 120 years. After those long living people died, God decided that humans would not be permitted to live more than 120 years (Genesis 6:3.) However, since later biblical figures (and actual people) such as Sarah lived for longer than that, 120 years should be considered the "usual" upper limit to man's lifespan. Some individuals can live slightly longer than that. Furthermore, starting with Calvin and Luther, an alternative explanation has arisen : 120 years would not refer to man's lifespan but to the amount of time left before the flood.

[Durrthock]

Can someone just lock this before someone gets into a Religion vs science argurment

Who Called It!!!

[Slug Toy]

you definitely did, but i still dont think it needs to be locked.

[Zephik]

Who Called It!!!

Why do you not want to discuss this? I have seen no "YOU ARE WRONG!" as of yet. You don't have to participate in this discussion, but I for one find all of this extremely interesting so I hope this discussion does not end. Like I said before, as long as we keep this to a dull roar, I believe that we can all benefit from it.

Ironcat: That was a really good article, Thanks for digging that up for us. Sure does explain alot! I personally think that the mistranslation part is especially something to consider. As even the people who have translated for us admit it.

About the part of a 65 year old man having offspring, things were different back then. I'm sure his wife was young enough to give birth, but unless human anatomy was different back then somehow, I don't think he could of "performed". That said, maybe he hand picked a "exceptional" lad to do it for him? I think that is a possibility when you think about "how things were" back then. Its almost like adoption today. Or maybe that is it, adoption. Even a adopted son or daughter is still a son or daughter. Creating children from sexual performance isn't the only way to become a father or a mother or a parent. Just a thought I had.

[DaveW]

I see no reason to lock this.

-Dave

[nil8]

Medical and historical evidence contradicts the idea that people are living shorter lives. Modern medicine and healthcare have allowed a large percentage of the population to live past 40, which in reference to the average age 400 years ago is outstanding results. Hooray modern medicine.

As for the flood, I need to cite my sources on this, but there are other historical accounts of a large flood in the region around the same time as Noah's ark. If it happened or not doesn't mean a thing to me. Just the idea of Creationists saying that natural phenomenon are caused by amything in the Bible. This entire debate is often lumped with the idea of Intelligent Design.

As a personal note, I have a tendency to scare off the closed minded religious types. I mention my affiliations, they get an idea in their heads, and off they go. It's funny on the surface, but sad on a deeper level. They fear things they know nothing about. I will say that this is not everyone and I hope it's not a majority.

Men can technically have offspring their entire lives after puberty, so it's possible.

[jaxspades]

If water ripped a hole in the earth, then magma would come out causing volcanoes, right?

That's an honest question, I am in no way a geologist.


Also, if you read the Bible, actually study it, you will find answers--it's just like any other book that you read--you gain knowledge in the subject and find answers.

And it is Human Stupidity that ruined religion, and SnowFire had a good point with his 'Good Father' thinking--God didn't want us to know sin and evil and pain, so he told us to stay away.

Why did he create the tree?

What is worship? Obedience. If they obeyed Him in this one thing, they would be constantly honoring Him and worshiping Him.

Why did he just simply not create Lucifer?

Well, He knew what would happen, so He did it anyways, so he could put into place the most amazing, loving, selfless act ever--being the ultimate sacrifice.

To me, that shows more love than if he would have left Lucifer out of the 6 days.

[Airbozo]

RE: Marianas Trench... I was in the sonar room when my ship crossed the Trench. Most Navy ships run sonar mapping runs as they cross the ocean and then send their data (the unclassified part) to all the research stations and mapping groups. It was _really_ eerie to see the sonar pings, suddenly drop off. It did not slowly get deeper, it just dropped off. A little while later it picked up again. I personally thought the sonar went on the blink. The sonar techs knew where we were and kind of ribbed me about it.

Performing at 65... My Father-in-law is 65 and has _no_ problems. Just ask my Mother-in-law...

Studying the bible... I have studied the bible and _most_ theologists agree that it raises more questions than it answers. Most (95%) of my professors also agreed that the bible is more of a religious guideline than a strict doctrine.

Worship is _not_ obedience.
transitive verb
1 : to honor or reverence as a divine being or supernatural power
2 : to regard with great or extravagant respect, honor, or devotion <a celebrity worshipped by her fans>
intransitive verb : to perform or take part in worship or an act of worship

Those who demand obedience tend to be megalomaniacs and dictators, not loving gods.